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Silent Tristero
02-08-2009, 17:36
My indecisive nature has lead me to consider a Warhammer 40,000 force, in order to ensure I'm able to play against people frequently (and not be restricted to the highly enjoyable Warhammer).

I'm not as drawn to the races of 40k as those in fantasy, however. I don't particularly like tanks, I don't want to 'be' aliens in the Tyranid sense...

One force I particularly like the look and theme of though, is the Ordo Malleus; Daemon and Witch Hunters. Flicking through old WD's (279 and 292 were the releases of the respective codex books), I'm defintely considering these.

So I ask, what state are these forces and books in? I believe the books were written for...3rd or 4th Ed. 40k? Are they still useable and effective now? According to WD, they were supposed to be part of a trilogy, featuring 'Alien Hunters' as the final book; I assume this was never realized in any form? do the dated rules still allow an effective army to be created - I know this can be a (controversial?) issue in Warhammer.

How about models, are the ranges still widely stocked? Are they an expensive army to start?

Would it perhaps be a better idea to start with a moderate force of Marines, and expand from there? I know Marines and the Hunters aren't automatically friends, but...

Thanks for any tips and stuff, sorry if the post's a bit long.

RexTalon
02-08-2009, 18:05
The answer to all your questions is yes, but that's not what you'll hear on a message board. Half these people are going to say the army sucks. Some of them will say they're awesome. I'm telling you that they've always been expensive in points and money, and that half the rules don't even work any more, but they can be fun to paint and play and that's really all you should care about. They'll eventually rewrite the rules and since the later a codex is, the more powerful it is, then they should be plenty "effective" in the future.

EDIT: Think about this.... They're called Deamon hunters and Witch hunters for a reason. If you're not fighting Deamons or Witches, how effective do you think they'll be?

Silent Tristero
02-08-2009, 18:29
I was aware of their debatable effectiveness against other forces...although the designers notes in WD read:

"One of the most important things I wanted Codex: Daemonhunters to do was to set a context for using Daemonhunter forces...For Daemonhunters to be a worthwhile force, they would have to be able to take on anything, not just daemons, and win."

So I was somewhat reassured in that respect. Your comment about 'half the rules not working anymore' is less encouraging, though.

Lord Damocles
02-08-2009, 18:33
Witch Hunters - specifically mechanised Sisters - are a very strong army. Of course they're also a very expensive army to buy as the range is all metal, and the basic squad box comes with some 'questionable' weapon choices.


Both codexes suffer from having a variety of rules which no longer function (immunity to minor psykic powers for example), and have an above average number of borked units (Daemonhosts, Repentia, most Inquisitor builds etc.), but that's only to be expected with codexes from two editions ago...


EDIT: Neither list is terrible as an all comers list. Daemon Hunters are often criticised for lacking the ability to take on armour, but that's more the fault of people trying to make pure Grey Knights effective and not using the allies rules (inducted Guard cover the Knight's weaknesses perfectly).

Vangarde
02-08-2009, 18:35
it was written 1-2 editions ago so some of it has not kept up with the times. And that new daemon dex and their eternal warrior everywhere, those grey knights can't even instakill them anymore with force weapons. sigh.

SimpleSquid
02-08-2009, 18:39
I'd say witchhunters are a good army to collect. I like metal minis so that wasn't a problem for me, and the army works in a very unique way with faith points boosting already good shooting and armour to amazing levels. I'd just go with all sisters, and take the mech approach to get the most out of the codex.

Couldn't comment on Daemon hunters, as I don't play them.

Emeraldw
02-08-2009, 18:59
I have a friend that tried grey knights. He said it was an "effort in frustration." Admittedly he tried pure grey knights but if your going to use allies, I think your better off going full IG and maybe using some GK Terminators or something.

I have a friend that currently plays Sisters and sadly it is not the fully mechanized battle sister list. So it loses easily. Seriously, Repentia are horrible, sisters on foot may have a 3+ armor but T3 hurts. With them you need to run a pretty specific list to be useful.

Overall, other armies offer you more options than the other 2 and are cheaper.

Marshal Argos
02-08-2009, 20:42
it was written 1-2 editions ago so some of it has not kept up with the times. And that new daemon dex and their eternal warrior everywhere, those grey knights can't even instakill them anymore with force weapons. sigh.

This isn't the rules forum so I won't argue this here, but just to let the OP know this very topic is disputed. Do a search in the rules forum to see all the sides of it, but IMHO they can still instakill.

OT: I've never played WH so I can't help much there. DH on the other hand I've tried out a few times. What I have normally done though is played an IG force and used DH allies. A few times I've tried out a pure DH army and just found it tough to use, although any new army is usually like that and to be honest I really didn't invest that much time into it.

What I will say though is that I love my DH used as allies to IG.

Gimp
02-08-2009, 21:10
I have always seen the sisters as being better than the Grey Knights.

As some above said a mechanzied Sisters army is fun and competitive. An army full of Metlaguns and Flamers is not a bad thing.

LonelyPath
02-08-2009, 21:28
it was written 1-2 editions ago so some of it has not kept up with the times. And that new daemon dex and their eternal warrior everywhere, those grey knights can't even instakill them anymore with force weapons. sigh.

They can still instakill thanks to GW's policy on RAW and taking the wording of something as gospel. If it doesn;t say "instant death" then it bypasses eternal warrior :)

Back to the topic at hand though.

Witch Hunters, especially certain builds of Sister of Battle are very powerful and can sweep the board if used right, there are still more powerful army biuilds fomr other codicis, but they are powerful. The Inquisition side of the codex does suffer though. Repentia and Penitent Engines are pretty worthless now to, unless you like the miniatures.

Daemonhunters suffers a bit more as only the GreyKnight side really can put up much of a fight these days and they suffer greatly in the realms of high strength weapons unless you fill up on Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts. However, giving your Hero the Hammerhand power and your Justicars taking meltabombs and they help balance things a little. Inquisitors with Mystics and a alot of ranged weaponry works well thanks to all the deep striking troops these days. DH also work with IG allied into the roster, but you can win against mech armies with Grey Knights without IG allies, it's just a little harder to do so.

Both codices are very playable to this day, desite that they were released in 3rd edition. Hopefully they will see updates before to long, but I'd expect them being amongst the last to see new codices during 5th editions run :(

The other down side is that they are largely metal ranges, so cost a bit more to collect, but you can find some good bargains online, especially on Ebay if you look enough (I got a Grey Knights Terminator box factory sealed for 20% of the retail price some time back).

Znail
03-08-2009, 00:03
I want to chime in and agree that they are very playable, DH in particular.

But they arent cheap as its all metal. DH isnt that bad thou as they are fairly expensive in points so comes out decently cheap to buy as an army. Both needs their tanks. Grey Knights only anti-tank weapons comes on Land Raiders and Dreadnaughts. Sisters rely on their transports and the Exorcist is one of the stronges heavy supoort options in any book. So they are questionable as far as cheap and no tanks goes.

Edonil
03-08-2009, 02:23
Witch Hunters are a highly specialized, high risk army in many ways. However, a mechanized Sisters of Battle list can be a truly scary thing. Personally, I have found them a very rewarding, very tactical army. I use Grey Knight Terminators as an Elite choice ally, and haven't regretted it at all. If you have the money, like the look of the army, and like the idea of a high mobility army, I'd say invest in a mech. Sisters army.

mughi3
03-08-2009, 06:31
I play SOB(WH) and i have some experience with DHs as well.

WH are effectively imperial guardsman that shoot like marines and wear power armor.
the use of faith points to make them more resiliant. it's what makes the army viable. especially since their "sweet spot" to be truely effective is within 8" of an enemy unit. which is why mechanised sisters are the prefered build.

They however have 3 glaring weaknesess in their current incarnation.
.they have 1 long range gun mounted on a tank(exorcist) and it is randomly effective
.Every single one of their CC units is horrible for various reasons(mostly being fragile and/or uncontrolable)
.Thier stats-T3/I3/S3/WS3 really hurt you in a MEQ world. especially when you operate like an MEQ and do not have the ranged heavy weapons support like that used by the IG or even marines.

DH on the other hand excel in CC and have some downright nifty rules/gear as well as beautiful models.

Their downsides include
.lack of vehicle support.
.lack of ranged heavy weapons above S6
.horribly over costed units.

DHs usualy work better as allies while SOB/WHs really suffer with any allies because they loose faith points to take allies or join another force as an ally.

TAOC
03-08-2009, 06:37
if you want a cool fluffy army with lots of conversion and painting challenges then go daemon hunters.

If you want an ultra competitive tournament capable asskicking force then this is not the list for you.

I get enjoyment out of the game just by playing it but other people like to win alot, it really comes down to what you want out of the game

Kettu
03-08-2009, 09:12
They can still instakill thanks to GW's policy on RAW and taking the wording of something as gospel. If it doesn;t say "instant death" then it bypasses eternal warrior :)

Yeah, try explaining that to your opponent. Your luck may vary but I'm not having any :cries:.

grissom2006
03-08-2009, 11:35
the problem with DH's is it just doesn't work to well as a army against a none demon or chaos army. WH's on the other hand is a great alrounder as a army

LonelyPath
03-08-2009, 13:34
Yeah, try explaining that to your opponent. Your luck may vary but I'm not having any :cries:.

I thankfully don't have that problem, but I'm sorry to hear you do :( Maybe your opponents should brush up on 40k ;)

As for Daemon Hunters suffering against non-Daemon/Chaos forces, it's not true, I fair pretty well against Eldar, IG, various SM and so on. Sure it's a bit of a uphill struggle fomr time to time, but it's almost nver impossible to win (even taken out a good chunk of a Nob Bikerz list before now, I lost but I caused alot of damage).