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seraphius
03-08-2009, 17:38
I was playing a small tourney the other day, with a lot of new decent players.

One of them gave me a great game, one of the best i have had in some time as my opponent was a friendly chap.(ended in a draw) BUT!!

I have my lord kitted with nightshroud, and from what i could tell my opponent plays alot vs VC( myself have played with them for a little over 2 years) and he had an angling on the Nightshroud i have not come across before.

My lord got Charged by 2 chariots, and when i was about to ask him to roll for impact hits he says "well.. hope you don`t have nightshroud on him"

Ofc i ask why is that?, and he then tells me that Nightshroud negates the Impact hits from chariots.

Is this the case??


I have played over 20 tourneys in the past 2 years, this was the first time ever using nightshroud so i have no idea?

For thoose of you not famillar with the item it is a light armour with the following rule:
Enemy modells wishing to attack the wearer lose all chargeing bonuses, lose always strike first rule, and init reduced to 1.

Just for the record, since i was not used to this, but he said it was the case, i decided to ask the REF and he said roll a dice for it.

Crube
03-08-2009, 17:45
I may be missing something here, but how?????

The nightshroud means that you lose ASF, lose charging bonuses (ie +1S and the like). How does it negate Chariot hits? And why would your opponent want to negate the chariot hits he was inflicting on your lord...?

EvC
03-08-2009, 17:53
Chariot impact hits are a charging bonus (Although the only place this is stated for definite is in the Bretonnian book), and since the chariots wanted to attack the Lord, the benefit is indeed lost...

siphon101
03-08-2009, 18:01
...wow. You know, that NEVER occured to me, but...by RAW...yeah, he's entirely right. Nightshroud negates charge bonuses, and the impact hits are a charge bonus so...yeah.

On the other hand, here's where it gets...weird. The charge bonuses are lost when attacks are declared against the character wearing it. Impact hits are done before attacks are declared. While impact hits might be a "charge bonus", they happen before any attacks are declared against the wearer of the armor, and only models that "wish to attack" the bearer lose the bonuses...

seraphius
03-08-2009, 18:01
I may be missing something here, but how?????

The nightshroud means that you lose ASF, lose charging bonuses (ie +1S and the like). How does it negate Chariot hits? And why would your opponent want to negate the chariot hits he was inflicting on your lord...?

Well, as i said, he was a very nice player.. perhaps to nice, but we both gave the other a bit of wiggleroom for this game, so i guess he just wanted to follow the rules.. but as we all can interpet the rules in so many ways he did it the way he was used to.. hence FOLLOWING the rules

All i want to know is if this is actually the case:)

Evil-Lite
03-08-2009, 18:33
The chariots would still get the impact hits if the character was in a unit of 5 or more rank and file models; however, if the vampire was running around solo (or on a non-monster mount) then the impact hits would be canceled by the armor.

jaxom
03-08-2009, 19:06
What was the situation on your Lord? Solo, mounted, what?

Crube
03-08-2009, 19:08
Fair do's to the guy then - sounds like a decent opponent.

I can understand where the idea comes from, but I would personally agree that the hits are dealt out before combat starts... but hey...

vampires are cool!
03-08-2009, 19:18
Ouch, boy i sure never saw that coming. I always thought that it just negated the ability to strike first against the vamp - me playing mostly by what i think is RAI doesnt help me there.

He sure was nice about it, sounds like the caliber of Fantasy opponant that we'v been missing over the last few years.

seraphius
03-08-2009, 19:38
yeah:) quality guy imo, i am happy to say that most oppnents here in Norway are like that^^

My lord was mounted with a Dread knight set upp and was not in a unit at the moment of impact( he had charged out of a unit of black knights the round before and taken out a unit of swordmasters.

Evil-Lite
03-08-2009, 19:45
yeah:) quality guy imo, i am happy to say that most oppnents here in Norway are like that^^

My lord was mounted with a Dread knight set upp and was not in a unit at the moment of impact( he had charged out of a unit of black knights the round before and taken out a unit of swordmasters.


Since your Lord was solo there would be no impact hits against him. The only legal target would be the lord. All charging bonuses would be negated, which includes impact hits.

WLBjork
04-08-2009, 06:45
The chariots would still get the impact hits if the character was in a unit of 5 or more rank and file models; however, if the vampire was running around solo (or on a non-monster mount) then the impact hits would be canceled by the armor.

Doesn't even need to be 5 or more RnF, only 1 or more RnF.

Perversely, in a situation where there are fewer than 5 RnF models, the Lord could still get hit (as Impact Hits are distributed like shooting).

Condottiere
04-08-2009, 08:06
Fair do's to the guy then - sounds like a decent opponent.

I can understand where the idea comes from, but I would personally agree that the hits are dealt out before combat starts... but hey...Impact hits don't count to combat resolution.

lotrchampion
04-08-2009, 08:13
As I recall, the Nightshroud specifies that it negates the charging bonuses of models which attempt to strike the wearer in CC. As the Impact Hits are done before targets are declared, Impact Hits across a unit containing the Vamp w/ NS would occur normally. If the Vamp was alone, since the only model the chariot(s) could attack is the Vampire, they are indirectly targetting him alone with Impact Hits - i.e., you don't get them.

That's how I would play it anyway.

Atrahasis
04-08-2009, 08:36
Impact hits don't count to combat resolution.

Whu ?

Kalandros
04-08-2009, 10:40
Impact hits don't count to combat resolution.

Looks like someone isn't playing Chariots the intended way.
Impact Hits always have counted toward CR, no reason they don't.

Condottiere
04-08-2009, 10:45
It's been a very long time since I let any chariot impact my troops - cannons and cavalry are positioned to prevent that.

jaxom
04-08-2009, 17:55
Does the item specifically say things which "target the vampire in close combat"? (I am not a VC player so I cannot check the armybook.)

Impact hits occur before challenges (otherwise a Skink Chief on Stegadon becomes an incredibly scary thing) and challenges have to come before at least one definition of close combat (specifically targetting things in close combat because they affect what can be challenged).

If it specifically says "targets the vampire in close combat" I would have to think that impact hits would work.

Falkman
04-08-2009, 17:59
Does the item specifically say things which "target the vampire in close combat"? (I am not a VC player so I cannot check the armybook.)
Yes, it works on attacks directed against the wearer.

seraphius
04-08-2009, 18:46
Does the item specifically say things which "target the vampire in close combat"? (I am not a VC player so I cannot check the armybook.)

Impact hits occur before challenges (otherwise a Skink Chief on Stegadon becomes an incredibly scary thing) and challenges have to come before at least one definition of close combat (specifically targetting things in close combat because they affect what can be challenged).

If it specifically says "targets the vampire in close combat" I would have to think that impact hits would work.

Yes, it states "Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer"

VC Billy
04-08-2009, 19:57
The Nightshroud does not stop impact hits from chariots. That's just silly.

None of the attacks are "directed at the wearer" even if he is alone. They are distributed like shooting and are not even "close combat attacks". I'm a VC player who uses the item, and even to me that seems ridiculous.

nosferatu1001
04-08-2009, 20:43
Chariot impact hits are, by definition, a charge bonus - if you lose all charge bonuses then you must lose impact hits.

Spirit
04-08-2009, 23:45
Chariot impact hits are, by definition, a charge bonus - if you lose all charge bonuses then you must lose impact hits.

But you only lose your charge bonus if you direct attacks at the vampire and while the vampire is the only one that can be hit in this case, the hits are never directed.

Gokamok
05-08-2009, 01:25
By RAI, I don't think Nightshroud is meant to negate impact hits, only the +2S from lances, etc., but that's of course not too relevant in terms of RAW;)

Nightshroud states that "...Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer lose all charging bonuses..." while the BRB, p. 63, Impact Hits section, states: "These hits are inflicted at the very beginning of the combat (...) and before any model gets to attack." So, by RAW, chariot impact hits are not close combat attacks, which would mean that the chariot is not "wishing to attack the wearer" at the time the impact hits are caused which would leave Nightshroud useless in this case.

Do I get a cookie?:angel:

Maoriboy007
05-08-2009, 02:08
By RAI, I don't think Nightshroud is meant to negate impact hits, only the +2S from lances, etc., but that's of course not too relevant in terms of RAW;)

Nightshroud states that "...Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer lose all charging bonuses..." while the BRB, p. 63, Impact Hits section, states: "These hits are inflicted at the very beginning of the combat (...) and before any model gets to attack." So, by RAW, chariot impact hits are not close combat attacks, which would mean that the chariot is not "wishing to attack the wearer" at the time the impact hits are caused which would leave Nightshroud useless in this case.

Do I get a cookie?:angel:

Impact hits still occur in the combat phase and are counted in all regards as part of the combat (i.e towards CR, removing models from attacking etc), they just occur at the very beginning (before ASF, challenges etc).
How about a nice bit of celery instead? :)

Its worth noting, however that a GW (Chariot Smasher) Vampire with the nightshroud still strikes after the Steeds and Crew due to the ASL rule.

WLBjork
05-08-2009, 06:42
They certainly are CC attacks. Dwarf Doomseekers have a rule that allows them to attack even before Impact Hits.

nosferatu1001
05-08-2009, 08:24
But you only lose your charge bonus if you direct attacks at the vampire and while the vampire is the only one that can be hit in this case, the hits are never directed.

You don't have to direct the impact hits at the Vamp, just your actual attacks which must go on the vamp - you have no choice. As the attacks MUST go on the vamp all charge bonuses are lost - thsi is one of those cases where you resolve backwards: you will have to direct attacks at the vamp therefore you must lose all charge bonuses.

Gokamok
05-08-2009, 09:58
You don't have to direct the impact hits at the Vamp, just your actual attacks which must go on the vamp - you have no choice. As the attacks MUST go on the vamp all charge bonuses are lost - thsi is one of those cases where you resolve backwards: you will have to direct attacks at the vamp therefore you must lose all charge bonuses.

Well, I guess a lot of this might come down to how you define a "charge bonus"?
A lance, for instance, gives a "+2 strength bonus when charging." (BRB, p. 56), while "When a chariot charges a unit, it causes d6 hits..." (BRB, p. 63). In the case of lances, the word "bonus" is used to define the properties of the weapon, whereas the wording is not that a chariot causes "bonus hits when charging", but rather that it causes hits.
So, is there any RAW argument which defines impact hits as a a charge bonus?

Atrahasis
05-08-2009, 10:01
Yes, impact hits are directly referred to as a charging bonus in the Bretonnian book.

Also, the rules for defended obstacles define charging bonuses as "special rules that rely on them charging".

EvC
05-08-2009, 12:29
Gotta love that 25 posts in, someone asks a question that I already explicitly answered in the second reply to the thread.

Shadow Lord
05-08-2009, 12:48
I wouldn't allow a rule in the Bretonnian book take precedent over a battle between VC and another army that's not Bretonnian...besides if you think about it: the driver of the chariot whishes to attack the VC so he loses his charging bonus, the animals pulling the chariot are also willing to inflict some serious hurt on that VC dude so they lose their bonus as well...the chariot on the other hand just wants to move forward in a direct line...as a non-setient being he has no intentions what so ever regarding that VC-dude so he's not at all targeting him...he just stands in the way of his forward momentum...:D

Silly argument ofc, but just shows how you can get carried away when trying to resolve something like that...;)

Nuada
05-08-2009, 12:57
Guess it depends if you call impact hits "a charging bonus", or just the chariots "charging attack" The horses pulling the chariot are a bonus (they could inflict damage) so could the crew. So noone can attack?

..... the bonus part does seem to imply an actual bonus (eg. +2 str from a lance) I don't think it says impact hits are a bonus anywhere, but i guess you could argue the attacks are a benefit/bonus.

A bonus is something extra (again the bonus strength from spears/lances), whereas the impact hits from charging with a chariot are not a bonus they are a necessity. But each to their own, i can see how you can interpret it both ways.

I've got no quotes to back it up :)

Milgram
05-08-2009, 13:13
I wouldn't allow a rule in the Bretonnian book take precedent over a battle between VC and another army that's not Bretonnian...

but defended obstacles could take precedent, right?

jaxom
05-08-2009, 13:16
They certainly are CC attacks. Dwarf Doomseekers have a rule that allows them to attack even before Impact Hits.

:wtf: That is just so wrong... So let me ask... What are their rules regarding challenges and who they can target? Are we supposed to declare challenges before impact hits? And if so, then who are the legal targets of impact hits for a skink chief on a stegadon? :confused:

The key, however, is than no matter how I have asked, apparently the words "close combat" do not appear in the object description. That can't be used in this case to determine whether or not impact works. Fortunately magic doesn't have charge bonuses or it would be affected by this as well from all I can tell... :eek:

nosferatu1001
05-08-2009, 13:18
A charging bonus is something you get because you charged that you wouldn't do otherwise. Impact hits are only when you charge, so guess what - you lose them.

This is pretty straightforward, really...

Edit: the legal "target" of impact hits is that they must be allocated as shooting but they are not shooting. So n ormally impact hits must hit the mount, however Stegadons have a specific rule which states they are randomised.

EvC
05-08-2009, 13:22
Yes, even if you don't accept that they are charging bonuses by RAW, they're charging bonuses according to the "Department of the Bleeding Obvious" if nothing else (Seriously- they're a bonus, and you get them when you charge... et voilá!!!).

Although it's fun to note that if a chariot were to just flee through a nightshroud vampire, the impacts would tear him to pieces :D

Shadow Lord
05-08-2009, 13:25
but defended obstacles could take precedent, right?

If the VC -dude was a defended obstacle...absolutely, but he wasn't so I still think that he get's the impact hits.
To charge something that's defended (with stakes and chains and other debris) will probably totally wreck your chariot so I can relate to how that works out...but the NS isn't an obstacle for the chariot...it hangs on a dude and that dude just got run over by a truck...or at least that's how I see it...just my 2cents.

Atrahasis
05-08-2009, 13:31
So how is that different to a 15 foot long wooden spike being slowed down?

Shadow Lord
05-08-2009, 13:42
Because the spike is specifically designed to stop chariots where a Vampire Count is not, I guess...and otherwise no one would ever be able to charge anything because then you can argue that all living things are by definition an obstacle and should count as being defended...besides ... I don't think that a body would slow down a chariot at full speed.;)...merely a bump in the road or a dent in the framework i'd say.:p

Atrahasis
05-08-2009, 13:43
The 15 foot spike I was referring to was a lance, wielded by a knight in full armour on the back of 2 tons of angry horseflesh.

If the 'shroud can stop that, why not a chariot?

Falkman
05-08-2009, 14:14
If the 'shroud can stop that, why not a chariot?
Because the rules say different?

Brodrick
05-08-2009, 14:29
Do charoits cause impact hits if they flee through a unit?

At work right now, but I thought they did.

Milgram
05-08-2009, 14:31
I don't think that a body would slow down a chariot at full speed.;)...merely a bump in the road or a dent in the framework i'd say.:p

a real chariot would have a problem with a body on the ground when driving full speed. anyway, real chariots were not intended to shock into the enemies. they were mainly mobile archers.

Atrahasis
05-08-2009, 14:34
Because the rules say different?

There's the rub - the rules DON'T say different.

Impact hits are a charging bonus, and the 'shroud removes charging bonuses.

VC Billy
05-08-2009, 15:45
There's the rub - the rules DON'T say different.

Impact hits are a charging bonus, and the 'shroud removes charging bonuses.

Only on "attacks directed against the wearer"

I don't think impact hits are directed attacks.

Falkman
05-08-2009, 16:06
What Billy said.

EvC
05-08-2009, 16:08
If you're going to put stuff in quotes, at least quote the right sentence. You've repeatedly misquoted the rules, as has falkman, so it's not a surprise that you both keep getting it wrong.

VC Billy
05-08-2009, 16:15
If you're going to put stuff in quotes, at least quote the right sentence. You've repeatedly misquoted the rules, as has falkman, so it's not a surprise that you both keep getting it wrong.

"I'll put whatever I'd like to in quotes" :cool:

nosferatu1001
05-08-2009, 16:18
Only on "attacks directed against the wearer"

I don't think impact hits are directed attacks.

True, however thats not what the item says.

If you direct attacks you lose charging bonuses. In a single character situation You have no choice but to direct attacks against the vamp so you lose charging bonuses.

A bonus for charging with a chariot is you get impact hits. You lose them.

EvC
05-08-2009, 16:28
"I'll put whatever I'd like to in quotes" :cool:

Then you'll keep being wrong every time, no matter how much Falkman cheers you ;)

Brodrick
05-08-2009, 16:29
Is it really a charge bonus?

A chariot can also do impact hits when fleeing, if it runs into another unit. Can other charging bonuses do the same?

I believe that the imapct hits are a consequence of a chariot making contact with another unit and not exclusive to charging.

Because of this, I am leaning toward Nightshroud not negating impact hits.

Nuada
05-08-2009, 16:34
Is it really a charge bonus?

A chariot can also do impact hits when fleeing, if it runs into another unit. Can other charging bonuses do the same?

I believe that the imapct hits are a consequence of a chariot making contact with another unit and not exclusive to charging.

Because of this, I am leaning toward Nightshroud not negating impact hits.

I think you can interpret it both ways Brodrick.

You can either see it this way..... "A bonus is something extra (the bonus strength from lances when charging), whereas the impact hits when you charge with a chariot isn't a bonus, it's a necessity. It's all or nothing, that's not a bonus"

Or this way .."A charging bonus is something you get because you charged that you wouldn't do otherwise"

Both opinions are valid IMO

blurred
05-08-2009, 16:42
I'm leaning towards the "Nightshroud does not negate impact hits" camp. The item implies that all bonuses of attacks which have an intention to attack the bearer are lost, whereas (IMO) impact hits are an effect which, in this case, affects the lone vampire lord.

Similarly, you wouldn't negate Standard of Slaughter's +d3 combat result bonus if the standard bearer attacks the vampire lord, right?

xragg
05-08-2009, 16:45
I dont have the VC book, so I dont know the proper quote. If it does say that only directed attacks lose charging bonuses, then impact hits would not be effected.



True, however thats not what the item says.

If you direct attacks you lose charging bonuses. In a single character situation You have no choice but to direct attacks against the vamp so you lose charging bonuses.

A bonus for charging with a chariot is you get impact hits. You lose them.

In the event that the vampire is alone, you still dont direct attacks of impact hits onto him. Having no choice doesnt mean you made a choice. The impact hits are not directed; you could techniqually argue they are still randomized (just happens that they will all hit the same target). Even a recent FAQ doesnt allow impact hits to choose a specific unit when given the option of different units.

Impact hits are indeed a charging bonus, you just never direct their attacks even with only one target. Whether the wording of the armor prevents that, I cant say with out seeing it.

theunwantedbeing
05-08-2009, 16:53
Is it really a charge bonus?

Yes, yes it is.
Why?
Well if you look to page 54 of the bretonnian armybook you'll see that defensive stakes also negate charging bonuses. However this time GW saw fit to actually say what charging bonuses are this time.
In the list it then gives you is chariot impact hits.

So this means that chariot impact hits are indeed a charging bonus.
However when the new Bretonnian armybook comes out this will undoubtedly not be there anymore.

On the plus side to the stupid nightshrouds chariot negating effect, its very easy to spot from miles away.
The nightshroud is light armour, the only light armour available to Vampire counts. As a result your opponent has to tell you if he's wearing light armour when you ask the question "what armour is he wearing?"

And then your free to not bother charging the guy with a chariot.

Mid'ean
05-08-2009, 16:55
The actual wording says " Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer lose all charging bonuses , lose the ASF, and have their I reduced to 1." Trying to run someone over with a chariot is attacking them. No impact hits if he is alone.....:skull:

snowywlf
05-08-2009, 16:55
Ok, lets get the facts back into this thread. I'm really interested in seeing the eventual outcome (I'm undecided on this issue).

So, here you go:


Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer lose all charging bonuses, lose the Always Strike First rule (if they have it) and have their Initiative reduced to 1.

Brodrick
05-08-2009, 17:23
Yes, yes it is.
Why?
Well if you look to page 54 of the bretonnian armybook you'll see that defensive stakes also negate charging bonuses. However this time GW saw fit to actually say what charging bonuses are this time.
In the list it then gives you is chariot impact hits.

So this means that chariot impact hits are indeed a charging bonus.
However when the new Bretonnian armybook comes out this will undoubtedly not be there anymore.



Thank you. That answer I can accept. I appreciate the detail you went into.

Nuada
05-08-2009, 19:20
Yes, thanks for that t.u.b, that's cleared it up for me.

It's interesting, that means a lone vampire in nightshroud doesn't take all the extra damage from a charging bone giant either. Nice.

Maoriboy007
05-08-2009, 21:18
So how is that different to a 15 foot long wooden spike being slowed down?


Because the spike is specifically designed to stop chariots where a Vampire Count is not, I guess...and otherwise no one would ever be able to charge anything because then you can argue that all living things are by definition an obstacle and should count as being defended...besides ... I don't think that a body would slow down a chariot at full speed.;)...merely a bump in the road or a dent in the framework i'd say.:p


The 15 foot spike I was referring to was a lance, wielded by a knight in full armour on the back of 2 tons of angry horseflesh.

If the 'shroud can stop that, why not a chariot?

Good Answer. Why are chariots so exempt when Knights , Bone Giants , Wild Riders , Mouted Spears and a variety of Magic Weapons aren't?
Lesson for today is dont charge a lone vampire wearing light armour if you're a chariot.