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Ultimate Life Form
05-08-2009, 12:19
Okay, there is this term of Leadership Bomb I see flying around every now and then and I start having an idea what it is supposed to mean: Obviously it involves moving some kind of Terror causer into the enemy ranks in order to cause mayhem and make the enemy army flee off the table, preferrably involving some kind of Leadership debuff on the enemy. First I need to know if this is correct.

Next, I'd like to know about the execution of such devious plans. What models are predestined to make good Ld bombs? Obviously, it has to cause Terror and a high movement is desirable, and flying capability is perfect for this task. But are there other qualities such a model must have? And what means can be used to lower the enemy's Ld? There's not much in this game which can do that - does that mean Doom & Darkness is a must for this tactic?

Next, I'd like to know how efficient it is. People seem to dread it, but I can see several flaws. I understand it's annoying when your army runs off the table, but it's in no way guaranteed. Here are a few facts:
- The usefulness entirely depends on the enemy army. Obviously, Daemons and Undead are immune from the start. But other armies are also quite resistant, like Elves and such. The Terror aura is only very small, so you have the chance to panic only a few units and only once, and some will pass the test, so it seems the effectiveness is rather limited.
- In order to lower the Ld, D&D must be cast which is a risk in itself. It can be dispelled, it can be a miscast or it can simply not work. In that case, you're screwed and have to target units with naturally low Ld. These however tend to suck anyway and are hardly worth the effort and risk. Which brings me to my next point:
- The model. We want a flying Terror causer. These tend to be Rare slot monsters who cost an ungodly amount of points. Isn't it risky to simply put it right between the enemy troops? It's even worse for mounted characters who struggle to make their points back anyway and won't do so by flying across the board the entire game.

Okay, lastly I want to know what chances I have to pull it off with my armies, Lizardmen and Vampire counts. Obviously, the Slann wants to know Doom & Darkness, but other than that? The Steg is too slow and too bulky for a Ld Bomb as well as the Carnosaur, and I think a Terror-causing Slann is out from the beginning. What else could do the trick?
And with Vampires, I could take a flying terror causer lord, but I can't really risk my general on something like this can I? The Varghulf is probably my best bet. Could it work in combination with a caster Lord who takes Lore of Death?

Thanks in advance!

shartmatau
05-08-2009, 12:30
Well the only way i know to do this efficiently is with a Slannesh Daemon army.

The Masque has a rule to lower units leadership within 12" of her. Its not magic and its not stoppable. She can march 20".

Then you can have a Daemonette Herald as the BSB. The banner she can take lower units leadership. If mounted on a steed, she can march 20".

A Keeper of Secrets can be a lvl 4 wizard, combat machine, and causes Terror. His magic often utilizes unit's leadership to do damage. There are several Slanneshy gifts of the gods that use Leadership tests. And of course, he can march 20".

With just three heros, you can wreck whole sections of an army through leadership spells, gifts, and terror tests. I've used it. It gets boring real quick. and there is very little an opponent can do to stop it.

Ultimate Life Form
05-08-2009, 12:45
Ah, so this is Slaanesh only...

Admittedly, with my armies, I cannot emulate something like that...

Darkangeldentist
05-08-2009, 12:56
Ld bombs aren't something I've seen used mainly because I'm a vampire player and thus it doesn't really affect me and quite a lot of my opponents also field armies where psychology isn't a big factor.

However there are two Ld bombs that are worth mentioning just for the hideousness of their potentcy. First is the Slaaneshi daemon list mentioned, it's very flexible since so many parts of it are so fast and manoeuvreable.

The second one is warriors of chaos with a Slaaneshi daemon prince with diabolic splendour (of whatever the name is) which inflicts -1 ld to any fear, terror or panic tests he causes. Backing him up is a battle standard with the totem of doom (-1ld to all enemies with line of sight). If you're lucky you'll also get the slaaneshi spell that causes a panic test on all enemy units within 18" (hellshriek). This combination is probably the best example of a ld 'bomb'. Daemon prince flies in front of the enemy battleline and shouts "BOO", even a high leadership army will see nearly half of it's units run off. You opponent then still has to worry about a bunch of terror tests at the start of his turn.

Overall that main problem is that it only works against some armies.

Briohmar
05-08-2009, 14:07
The full on Slaanesh Daemons LD Bomb, as already noted, involves a Kepper (Preferably Lvl 4 Caster), Masque, and Herald BSB on Steed with Icon of Dispair. With the Masque and the BSB within 12" every unit is faced with a LD of -(3,4, or 5 depending on the Masque's D3 roll) plus, the Slaanesh Spell which forces all LD tests to be rolled on 3 dice, discarding the lowest. (Even Dwarves are forced to take terror tests on a 5 at times.) Add to that the default spell causing stupidity, which will likely be cast by the Herald, the Allure of Slaanesh which makes a model have to pass a LD test to even be able to attack the Keeper of Secrets, and any attempts by units to flee who may just keep going, and you have a really nasty combination that can even effect other Daemons and undead. But its VERY expensive, coming in at just over 1000 points.

shartmatau
05-08-2009, 14:40
This idea has more to do with the Masque than any of the other abilities in the Daemon army. she has a power that just happens, no way to stop it and she doesnt even need LOS. Frankly I think the studio has been going a little overboard on special characters lately. The idea that special characters are now being referred to as Named Characters shows how they are not being treated as special anymore. This says nothing to the fact that they are either over powered for the cost or under costed for their power (6 of one half a dozen of the other).

I can understand the want of having special characters and the enjoyment of using them. But I can clearly remember that when using them was a special thing. The characters were still often over powered but the player to pay a premium for that power and the idea of using the character was infrequent, reserved for one off scenarios and larger games. I miss those days. These games have changed, not necessarily for the worse. I wish more players would choose fun, oddball, interesting, or challenging armies. And I wish scenarios were integrated into the games instead of being a beatdown game. Ah well, this is just me ranting a bit I guess but I have a feeling I am not alone in this respect.

Draco74
05-08-2009, 14:50
For the Chaos Mortal army, You could go with the above DP of Slaanesh with diabolica splender (-1 to LD tests from DP), BSB with doom totem (-1 Ld to enemies with line of sight to Totem) and 2 Hell Cannons (-1 to LD test if hit with templetes). This is not just a LD Bomb, but artillery strike as well. DP hits middle of the enemy line, Hellcannons each take a flank and any one taking tests will be at -2 LD if they can see the Doom Totem.

willowdark
05-08-2009, 14:57
Pandaemonium is also a great weapon for a WoC Ld bomb. No unit on the field may use te generals Ld, combined with Diabolic Splendor and those Terror tests get hard to pass.

Condottiere
05-08-2009, 15:00
I remember there was a discussion as to whether keeping the general out of the range of these effects ensured the units saved on his unmodified leadership value, but can't remember if it was accepted as possible.

Ultimate Life Form
05-08-2009, 15:02
Me and my group, we hate special characters and don't use them on principle. I can't really say what it is; I just find the entire concept of fielding a legendary warrior (often a nation leader, even more often DEAD) in any random border skirmish off-putting, especially since these seem to have inexplicable powers that are unique to them and cannot be done by normal characters who really should also be powerful characters in their own right. It may have to do with me being a big video and PC gamer and being used to armies having certain generic unit types that are balanced out, and everything unique is just bound to break the balance. This is even more stupid with this new trend where they FORCE you to take certain special characters because otherwise the army completely loses the ability to counter certain things or where they shuffle around slots. Yay for ruined army balance! And even more stupid it is when both players field the same character. Special Characters manage to throw flavor, logic, appeal AND game balance outta the window in one fell swoop, and would I ever field one, I couldn't show my face anymore. Therefore I wouldn't take the Masque even if I HAD a Slaanesh Army AND wanted to field a Ld Bomb. I'd rather miss out on some special treats than ruin the game for everyone, including me.

Drachen_Jager
05-08-2009, 15:42
I agree ULF, but I'm not quite so strict about it. I think in larger games where both players agree that named characters are OK you can go for it, just once in a while for fun. For general play however I agree with your interpretation.

willowdark
05-08-2009, 15:43
I tend to find special characters appropriate in large scale epic battles.

limkopi
05-08-2009, 15:53
Also Slaanesh DoC works best because of Torment Blade (pass Ld test or you can't attack if I wounded you) and Allure of Slaanesh (pass Ld test or you can't attack), since terror is a one time thing.

You can attempt this with Plaque of Dominion for LM or Beguile for VC, both quite situational and not really worth the effort.

ewar
05-08-2009, 17:40
This idea has more to do with the Masque than any of the other abilities in the Daemon army. she has a power that just happens, no way to stop it and she doesnt even need LOS. Frankly I think the studio has been going a little overboard on special characters lately. The idea that special characters are now being referred to as Named Characters shows how they are not being treated as special anymore. This says nothing to the fact that they are either over powered for the cost or under costed for their power (6 of one half a dozen of the other).



How they decided she was worth 81pts I have no idea. A M10, WS7 hero with amazing abilities to ruin your opponents day and a 5+ ward save. If I had that option in any of my armies, I'd easily pay 150pts and think I was getting a bargain. She is basically the same cost as an empire captain with some magic kit... which one is better?

But 81!? How did they even arrive at that?? You can say that a lot with DoC book though.

wingedserpant
05-08-2009, 17:47
Leadership bombs tend to be a bonus on top of getting your dragon or whatever into a good position.

People do fail terror tests and its just an added way of striking at units that don't deserve the full attention of a dragon or hydra.

Gaargod
05-08-2009, 18:03
VC can do it - Vampire with Aura of Dark Majesty helps them fail tests. However, they need their gifts to help cause chaos anyways...

Liz can't really alter leadership in that way (although, if you have a couple of terror causers, some salamanders and a Slann anyways, its well worth taking D&D to make their LD checks a little bit harder), but they have a lot of ways of making the enemy take LD checks...

Draco74
05-08-2009, 18:39
How they decided she was worth 81pts I have no idea. A M10, WS7 hero with amazing abilities to ruin your opponents day and a 5+ ward save. If I had that option in any of my armies, I'd easily pay 150pts and think I was getting a bargain. She is basically the same cost as an empire captain with some magic kit... which one is better?

But 81!? How did they even arrive at that?? You can say that a lot with DoC book though.

I would guess that they priced her at only 81 points because she can not join units. With only 2 wounds, Toughness of 4 and a 5+ Ward save, she is very open to be shot of magiced right off the board. If she could join units then sure I'd price her at around 150, but not like this.

ewar
05-08-2009, 19:00
Don't forget her 3+ ward dance - handy for getting in range of the ld bomb. I think it's not much of a handicap on such a fast model. M4 or 5, it would be an issue but not on M10.

Angelust
05-08-2009, 19:15
I think the issue with LD bomb armies is that it doesn't work against the top two armies, which means you're usually taking daemons against a mid-tier army, and then using a cheesy daemon tactic that only works on mid-low tier armies anyway.

It's not good for all-comers, it only works against already-sucky armies, and it usually sucks the fun out of the game for the other guy because you're basically forcing him to make failed dice rolls the whole game.

WoC LD bomb is also pretty expensive to pull off, and won't work against daemons and VC, which makes it really situational. I just don't think it'd be fair if you tailored a LD bomb list knowing you'd fight beastmen or O&G or something...

willowdark
05-08-2009, 19:32
There are a lot of situations where aspects of your army design don't apply to the army you're facing. For instance, my magic heavy DE are all but nullified against Ogres since they just soak up magic missiles like rainwater. But since I expect it I have a plan B prepared for them without sacrificing the huge advantage magic can give me against other armies.

A Splendor DP w/ Pandaemonium won't work against some armies but there would still be armies out there it would work against, and there should always be other tools available if your first tactic doesn't work.

And the Daemon effects work against ItP enemies and do more than just force Terror tests, so it works against any army.

shartmatau
05-08-2009, 19:35
The Daemon LD bomb army works really well against undead and other daemons actually. Against other daemons it means when they lose combat, they take several more unsaveable wounds. Against undead there are several spells that are based on LD in the Slannesh arsenal. Slicing Shards will rip through undead units like crazy, lowering the leadership of the vampires makes it work across the board. They won't run from terror but really the terror tests are the least useful part of the LD bomb idea. And using Siren Song on undead knights or creatures will ruin a Vamp players day (unless they actually FAQ'd that). Yes its not quite as useful but Vamps vs Slannesh, I'd put money on Slannesh every time.

Lord Inquisitor
05-08-2009, 19:38
How they decided she was worth 81pts I have no idea. A M10, WS7 hero with amazing abilities to ruin your opponents day and a 5+ ward save. If I had that option in any of my armies, I'd easily pay 150pts and think I was getting a bargain. She is basically the same cost as an empire captain with some magic kit... which one is better?

But 81!? How did they even arrive at that?? You can say that a lot with DoC book though.
Unless I'm very much mistaken I think she's 90 points which is the same as a naked (heh heh naked) Herald of Slaanesh.

She is vulnerable, even with 3+ save and M10. She's so destructive, she tends to get sniped whenever possible. She is, however, rediculously cheap for what she does - her stats are fine (the fact that she can't join units is a big disadvantage comparing her with other heroes) it's her Dance that really makes her overpowered. If her ability was a bound spell (and therefore stoppable) she wouldn't be such a monster, even at 90 points. Even if it were bound spell with power level 12, it would still be worth the dispel scroll to thwart her on that hideous Turn 2.


This idea has more to do with the Masque than any of the other abilities in the Daemon army. she has a power that just happens, no way to stop it and she doesnt even need LOS.
Actually, I disagree. That Masque is no doubt overpowered but actually I rate the Great Icon of Dispair far more useful. The Masque only affects one unit and you can't rely on her to inflict more than -1. The Icon can affect multiple units and if used well can still work a very servicable Ld-bomb. I frequently play without Special Characters but with a pure-Slaanesh list the Ld-bomb is the only way the army works. The Masque is just the final kick in the teeth, but the Great Icon is the workhorse.


The full on Slaanesh Daemons LD Bomb, as already noted, involves a Kepper (Preferably Lvl 4 Caster), Masque, and Herald BSB on Steed with Icon of Dispair. With the Masque and the BSB within 12" every unit is faced with a LD of -(3,4, or 5 depending on the Masque's D3 roll) plus, the Slaanesh Spell which forces all LD tests to be rolled on 3 dice, discarding the lowest. (Even Dwarves are forced to take terror tests on a 5 at times.) Add to that the default spell causing stupidity, which will likely be cast by the Herald, the Allure of Slaanesh which makes a model have to pass a LD test to even be able to attack the Keeper of Secrets, and any attempts by units to flee who may just keep going, and you have a really nasty combination that can even effect other Daemons and undead. But its VERY expensive, coming in at just over 1000 points.
Yep. And all of those expensive powers don't stop you being shot at in their turn (excluding Terror if you can get that close...)! The Phantasmagoria spell (unless you are very lucky with a double-six cast, doesn't happen to me!) is really an endgame move. If you can cast it Turn 2 you can table your opponent shockingly fast but your opponent will probably be saving scroll for this, assuming you can cast it. The Stupidity spell is actually more powerful in many cases early on - making missile troops stupid is a great way to keep your fragile daemonettes alive. It's another example of the problem with the daemon book - the number of abilities that happen automatically or can't be stopped. Once cast, the unit is permanently Stupid. Other things like the Masque, Siren Song or Siren Standard are so powerful because there's no risk and no way of preventing them. If these were bound spells or similar they'd be fine.

Angelust
05-08-2009, 19:56
Ah, my mistake then.

stripsteak
05-08-2009, 21:07
How they decided she was worth 81pts I have no idea. A M10, WS7 hero with amazing abilities to ruin your opponents day and a 5+ ward save. If I had that option in any of my armies, I'd easily pay 150pts and think I was getting a bargain. She is basically the same cost as an empire captain with some magic kit... which one is better?

But 81!? How did they even arrive at that?? You can say that a lot with DoC book though.

as mentioned above she is 90, the blue scribes are 81 points. tzeentch's sacred number is 9...

Lord Inquisitor
06-08-2009, 15:47
She's still underpriced at 90 mind! :cheese:

ewar
06-08-2009, 16:29
My bad!

I'm with the Inquisitor though... the extra 9 points won't change my mind! Her weaknesses just aren't glaring enough to compensate for her abilities. I really wish GW would return to special characters being special and by prior agreement only.

I don't care how stupidly overpowered and undercosted something is when its known in advance and the game is for fun. Seeing Miss Masque get involved in every single minor daemonic skirmish seems a bit daft. She is one busy lady.

Anyway, all this has gone slightly off topic!

Like others have said, leadership bombs work wonders against some armies and will quickly lose you friends if repeated over and over again.

Lord Inquisitor
06-08-2009, 16:39
I don't know, I think special characters and the Masque in particular are relevant to the discussion on Ld-bombs...

I have nothing against Special Characters and I think GW's approach now is a good one. I never used them in the old "opponent's permission" days and I like the idea behind the Masque. She's a cool little disruption unit and can't be replicated using a regular Herald. The problem is that she's not balanced. She'd be fine if, for example, her ability were a bound spell with power level 4. She might still be mite cheap but there'd be no great complaint about her.

This is very much the issue with most of the things in the daemon book. You can't stop siren song or the Masque or the icon of dispair, etc. While every army has abilities that can't be stopped, the daemon army is dripping with them.

I need to have a look at my army as I've always had a Slaaneshi daemon army (even back under the Hordes of Chaos rules, which sucked). I sat down when the army book came out and built a Slaaneshi list and - realising that most of the Slaaneshi spells and abilities are Ld based - naturally added the Masque and the Icon of Dispair. Now I need to rejig my army as the Ld-bomb isn't well received but I need to work out how a pure-Slaanesh list will work if I take all the Ld effectors out without branching out into other Gods.

shartmatau
06-08-2009, 18:51
As you mentioned Lord Inquisitor the problem isnt one thing or another, its a combination of good things. This isnt to say that people shouldnt play whatever they want. I'm a firm believer that anything in the book is fine to play with.

I have a friend who played with a pure slannesh force using only the banner, not the masque. That on its own was reasonable to play against. Yes it just happens and no way to stop it but on the whole a slannesh herald isnt too hard to get rid of and relying on the magic to work can be dealt with by most armies. My friend won most of his games because he's good at fantasy and because the army is so ******* fast. Having buckets full of move 10 units is hard for a lot of armies to deal with. But thats all well and good because its a normal thing. Its the extraodinary things when combined that make the Daemon army really powerful to the point of many people dont like playing against it. I blame this duelly on the studio making it that way and the players choosing the most powerful thing as opposed to a friendlier yet still useful army.

dsw1
06-08-2009, 19:05
I am not sure if it has been mentioned yet (the thread was too long to read, I wanted to get straight to the posting lol).

With the slanneshi Daemons Ld bomb army (my current army) there are ways you can utilise the LD bomb even against armies that are Immune to psychology (and I've used this only a tiny bit in the past). Basically just take items (or gifts) that make the enemy have to take a ld test to attack you, with daemons this is excellent as the keeper could make it so that an enemy has to take 3 ld tests before attacking. My current set up makes it so you take 1 or 2 if I wound you, This basically makes your lord (or even a herald) much harder to kill, mix that in with the masque and great icon of despair and you'll have a very good chance that most thing won't get anywhere near hitting you.

Not this against something like a blood thirster say, the keeper gets in btb, you lower the ld of the thirster by d3 then the -2 for the despair means that a thister has to pass a ld test on -3 > -5 (meaning ld6/4) and if you manage to cause a wound, you win Close combat by 1 meaning a ld test on ld5/3, which on average it should take 2 cc rounds to kill him (1 if you get lucky).

Another example, charge the keeper into a block unit, you can effectively make keeper immune to all incoming attacks made against him.

This is just one way that a ld bomb can be used against an immune to psych army ;).

F0r54k3n
07-08-2009, 00:24
Managing to cast phantamogoria is awesome!

I had my BSB with Icon of Despair in the middle of a dark elf army and cast it. My opponents Dark elf army subsequently failed bucket-loads of fear tests and simply could not counter-charge.

Deacon Bane
07-08-2009, 11:45
Going back to the WOC Leadership Bomb, if I put the Doom Totem on a hill, will it effect units in CC?

Aladauqs
07-08-2009, 12:20
For Vampire Counts, a leadership bomb is pretty doable. A normal vampire (doesn't have to be a lord) with Aura of Dark Majesty, Skabscrath and Talisman of the Lynci, while a bit frail, can run around pretty annoyingly behind enemy lines and in between units while your tooled up vamp lord casts Doom and Darkness. I'd imagine that could be quite effective, though I haven't attempted it myself.

Jushak
07-08-2009, 23:38
WoC LD bomb really only needs two models:

Chaos/Sorcerer Lord on Chaos Dragon (or manticore... it had terror too right?) + BSB with the banner that gives -1 leadership.

Tzeentch sorcerer lord makes the best choice here due the higher ward saves (with the ward save vs. all missiles, including magical ones, being no brainer), as well as almost guaranteed Pandaemonium to stop opponent using the leadership of his general. Add the daemonic gift that lowers LD of the opponent vs. Terror tests caused by the character and you're set to go.

The simplest way to do this is to have the dragon fly in the middle/behind the opponents army while the banner bearer takes the most visible location in the battlefield. Then just watch as (hopefully) half of the opponents army flees the battle in turn 1/2.


The biggest problem with this "tactic" is that it some armies are completely immune to it, as well as the varying efficiency. Some armies simply collapse againts this (especially when Pandaemonium gets through) while againts others it's a gamble.

As such in tournament play this might be a bit risky way to go, especially with some of the top armies being among the immune ones. In friendly on the other hand - well, in my humble opinion LD bombs don't belong in friendly games, especially if you tailor your list vs. each opponent instead of playing "all comers" list, dropping the bomb only when its success is somewhat guaranteed.