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benlucas
05-08-2009, 13:07
Ive heard from several ppl that Skaven Assassins aren't worth it and are ineffective - why is this? or why is it not?

B

warp_pyro
05-08-2009, 13:48
I think the main drawback is that they use a hero slot that is often better spent on something else.

They can be effective, as they can pack a fair old punch, but unless they kill the enemy they are against, they are not likely to survive anyone attacking them back. If in a big unit, with large static combat res, I think they do provide enough of a punch to tip the balance of the combat. I just think my cheaper plague priest with censer can provide just as much punch (and tougher due to magic item I give him!)

I don't often use gutter runners, so maybe someone else can say how they perform hidden in a scouting unit.

sulla
05-08-2009, 22:38
They have access to 2 good magic weapon choices in weeping blade and warpstone stars depending on whether you prefer them as shooters or a pop-up attack in your rank and file. Or for a real high risk-high reward character, give him the brass orb and pray.

But they suffer from high cost, taking up a slot better used by a BSB or engineer and the fact that most of your units should really be expendable. Spending points on an assassin to protect a unit often just results in more points down the drain when the unit breaks and flees.

In other words, it's not that they are a bad choice, so much as that there are less risky character choices in your list.

decker_cky
06-08-2009, 00:27
DE assassins wouldn't be nearly as good if they didn't have access to rune of khaine, and DE assassins don't take a hero slot (this is probably the most significant one), are cheaper, and are always ASF. But for combat, rune of khaine combined with other stuff (manbane?) makes a super nasty choice out of DE assassins. Skaven assassins have some alright choices, but nothing quite so awesome.

TheSanityAssassin
06-08-2009, 04:33
It's the eating a hero slot for sure...that's why DE assassins are so nasty....the ability to start adding fighty characters into a list without giving up casting, or just to beef the crap out of all your blocks.

Sarah S
06-08-2009, 04:36
Skaven Assassins are crap, especially when compared to the Dark Elves.
More expensive.
Worse stats across the board.
Take up a Hero slot.

They lose their additional hand weapon bonus if they take a weapon.
They los their poisoned attacks if they take a weapon.

Leave them at home.

sulla
06-08-2009, 21:11
Skaven Assassins are crap, especially when compared to the Dark Elves.
More expensive.
Worse stats across the board.
Take up a Hero slot.

They lose their additional hand weapon bonus if they take a weapon.
They los their poisoned attacks if they take a weapon.

Leave them at home.

Skaven infantry are crap, especially when compared to the Dark Elves warriors.
Only slightly cheaper.
Worse stats across the board
Mainstay units.

They have no hatred.
They can't rally very well.

Leave them at home and play dark elves.

Oh wait, I thought this was a post about skaven assassins, not dark elves? Skaven assassins are still generally better choices than chieftains most of the time, so if you want a fighter character to protect your grey seer, you probably want an assassin. But if you don't need a fighter, just get another warlock or plague priest.

Draconian77
06-08-2009, 22:24
It's the eating a hero slot for sure...that's why DE assassins are so nasty....the ability to start adding fighty characters into a list without giving up casting, or just to beef the crap out of all your blocks.

...
....
.....

"Sigh"

As long as you are still playing with a points limit they have to give up something to get Assassins into their list.

I would be very confident of Skaven Assassins not taking up a Hero choice come the next ediotn of that army book.

theunwantedbeing
06-08-2009, 22:33
I would be very confident of Skaven Assassins not taking up a Hero choice come the next ediotn of that army book.

I'm sure most people would be dumbfounded if GW kept Skaven assasins as taking up hero slots.

All thats happened is the tables have turned.
DE assasins are now better than Skaven ones, rather than before where it was the other way around.

They won't be as good as DE assasins in the new book of course, but they'll be cheaper and generally as useful vs the average trooper as a DE assasin is.

Sarah S
06-08-2009, 22:50
Skaven assassins are still generally better choices than chieftains most of the time

At least Chieftans are 45 points - 60 points cheaper than Assassins.

I would rather have a Chieftan most times because they can wear armour and they provide a (modest) leadership bonus to my units - far more useful than a 105 point naked 2W model that dies the second it's revealed.

Spirit
07-08-2009, 13:05
As long as you are still playing with a points limit they have to give up something to get Assassins into their list.


Yes, but they dont have to give up a hero, and being forced to give up anything in your army to afford an assassin is a damn sight better than being forced to give up a hero. Especially in a skaven army.

sulla
08-08-2009, 20:16
Yes, but they dont have to give up a hero, and being forced to give up anything in your army to afford an assassin is a damn sight better than being forced to give up a hero. Especially in a skaven army.But not quite so good in a DE army where you don't have a spare 200pts after making your list that you can fill up with fun stuff. Normally in an elite army like Elves or chaos, those extra points for an assassin are not a no brainer; One assassin with the wrong equipment for the fight he's in can turn a 250pt unit of fodder into a 400pt unit of fodder, whereas those points could have been better spent on harpies and crossbowmen who would have both kept a unit alive and killed some annoyances from afar. It's not the no-brainer it seems on paper.

But this is all way off topic. No-one's saying 7th edition DE assassins aren't better than 6th edition skaven ones. But it's irrelevant to the discussion about whether a Skaven player should use one in the Skaven army. For me personally, Skaven assassins only compete with chieftains; both have their strengths and weaknesses. Neither really compete with warlocks as a hero choice and even plague priests shade them because of the plague censor, their toughness combined with some pretty good protective magic items and the option to make them a lvl1 through the liber bubonicus.

Sarah S
09-08-2009, 03:40
Yeah, Dark Elves are really stressed for points with their 6 point Warriors and 175 point Hydras.

sulla
09-08-2009, 19:47
Why don't you go and start another anti DE thread if you want to complain about them? Or are you not capable of actually staying on topic?

AMWOOD co
09-08-2009, 21:06
I had a recent battle where I used a friend's Skaven Assassin, armed with warpstars, as a short range missle platform deployed inside a forest. It was a 2 vs 2 game, I controlled two armies (Skaven and Chaos Warriors) against my two friends (Lizardmen and Ogres).

Despite forgetting to shoot or move with him for 2 turns, he still managed to kill a Hunter and his kitties (hunter had mastadon armour, had to charge him to kill him, got wounded by that blasted harpoon gun on turn 2), a good chunk of a unit of Templeguard, and even influenced a fight by making a useful supporting charge at endgame.

He's hardly useless, but definately hard to use. Just don't think that all assassins must use the hidden rule.

SlaaneshSlave
10-08-2009, 01:29
Idea to compensate for assassins taking up a Hero slot... New Skaven Assassin rule: Dirty Tricks

Dirty Tricks: Skaven Assassins are masters of being in the right place at the right time and are much more cunning than their human generals. As such, no need to mark the unit which the assassin is hidden in. Just reveal the assassin at the start of any phase, of either player, and place in a Skaven unit of your choice. After being revealed the assassin follows all normal rules for movement.

This will ensure the assassin will have impact in the game & will make up for taking a hero slot.