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hohenheim
05-08-2009, 22:45
How's this for a sorcerer lord:

Lvl 4
chaos dragon
MoT
Stream of Corruption
Bloodcurdling roar
enchanted shield
collar of khorne
spell familiar
rod of torment

790

2+ AS, 5+ ward, MR2
I like the idea of 3 breath weapons+roar+rod+whatever spells. The plan would be to fly around roasting units in addition to the possible gateway.

The rest of the 2250 list is pretty standard (in case it influences the sorcerer's build):

Chaos Sorcerer
MOT, scrollx2, barded chaos steed (could trade this for a disc... does the disc give +1 AS for a total of 3+?)
171

Chaos Sorcerer
MOT, infernal puppet, barded chaos steed
156

3x 5 marauder horsemen
MOS, musician, flails
273

2x 5 warhounds
60

5 chaos knights
MOK, standard, war banner
275

5 chaos knights
MON, standard, banner of rage
285

3 dragon ogres
great weapons
231


TOTAL
2241

Drachen_Jager
05-08-2009, 22:59
This is tactics, Army lists is over there ----->

On point though;

1) you didn't upgrade your sorcerers to lvl 2? That means you're spending a lot on a magic phase that could be virtually shut down by a good anti-magic army.

2) 41 models with almost 90% of your points tied up in 16 of those models makes what Empire cannoneers like to call a "target rich" environment. If you encounter an opponent with lots of cannons or boltthrowers your game could be over before it starts.

3) On the whole I think it will be a pretty annoying build, some of the time you'll just destroy your opponents because they don't have a good counter for you and the rest of the time you'll get destroyed, I don't think either scenario will be much fun for either side but especially the losing one.

hohenheim
05-08-2009, 23:17
This is tactics, Army lists is over there ----->

On point though;

1) you didn't upgrade your sorcerers to lvl 2? That means you're spending a lot on a magic phase that could be virtually shut down by a good anti-magic army.

2) 41 models with almost 90% of your points tied up in 16 of those models makes what Empire cannoneers like to call a "target rich" environment. If you encounter an opponent with lots of cannons or boltthrowers your game could be over before it starts.

3) On the whole I think it will be a pretty annoying build, some of the time you'll just destroy your opponents because they don't have a good counter for you and the rest of the time you'll get destroyed, I don't think either scenario will be much fun for either side but especially the losing one.

oh, sorry maybe this should be in army lists. i was really only looking for c&c on the lord itself, but...

1) i didn't upgrade the sorcs because i didn't have points. they're for casting flickering fire (to hopefully absorb some DD) and supporting the lord with the puppet/scrolls. any suggestions on somewhere to get the points?

2) true it's target rich, but hopefully i'll be upon them by turn 2

3) that's probably true of any build with a dragon in it, but i must have the dragon! :) if you can balance the list while keeping the dragon in it, i'm all ears

Drachen_Jager
05-08-2009, 23:45
oh, sorry maybe this should be in army lists. i was really only looking for c&c on the lord itself, but...

1) i didn't upgrade the sorcs because i didn't have points. they're for casting flickering fire (to hopefully absorb some DD) and supporting the lord with the puppet/scrolls. any suggestions on somewhere to get the points?

2) true it's target rich, but hopefully i'll be upon them by turn 2

3) that's probably true of any build with a dragon in it, but i must have the dragon! :) if you can balance the list while keeping the dragon in it, i'm all ears

1) The Dragon, you could swap him for 3 lvl 2s and probably get everyone on a disc, you'd be better off that way and you could take GEoTz on your Sorc Lord to protect him. Dragons in the role you're proposing are pretty wasteful in points and as a non-large target you can hide better plus the GEoTz works properly (it won't protect the dragon). I think the extra magic will more than make up for missing a couple of breath weapons and give you more versatility. Alternately if you don't want to be too beardy get a Jugger mounted hero to go with your knights and two lvl 2s.

2) With an army that small a gunline could well eliminate most of what hurts in a couple of turns of shooting.

3) If you've got to have the Dragon then take him, just be warned...

Havock
05-08-2009, 23:52
Instead of the Rod of Torment, take the Runesword.
You only need to have LoS and be out of combat for flickering fire, everything else isfair game when engaged.

Charge something and cast the love, well, maybe not that, around.

hohenheim
06-08-2009, 00:07
Instead of the Rod of Torment, take the Runesword.
You only need to have LoS and be out of combat for flickering fire, everything else isfair game when engaged.

Charge something and cast the love, well, maybe not that, around.

Yeah, I think you and Drachen are right. I'm completely wasting the dragon's 6 S6 attacks in my plan. I can't do the simple Rod of Torment->Runesword swap because that would put me at 105 pts of magic items. I'm sad to see the mass ranged attacks go, but how about:

Lvl 4
chaos dragon
MoT

word of agony
40

enchanted shield
collar of khorne
axe of khorne
spell familiar
100

790

Havock
06-08-2009, 00:13
Consider ditching the spell familiar in favour of the Runesword. If only to learn how to play without Gateway once in a blue moon. Which initially is a shock, but the games are still fun, really.

ZigZagMan
06-08-2009, 04:26
tzeench lord on disc with: (bear with me I don't remember the names of all the magic items)
Enchanted shield 15pts
Golden eye of tzeench 25 pts (4+ ward becomes 3+)
Power familiar 25pts
Book of secrets 25pts
Biting Blade 5 pts
and blood curlding roar 20pts
This guy is a power house of Magic (6 power dice generated by him alone) and a march blocker as well

Sarah S
06-08-2009, 05:01
Better not go for Gateway with that guy, the ~20% miscast rate will really bite your ass in a hurry, even with the Puppet.

Drachen_Jager
06-08-2009, 05:06
Take the book of secrets if you're worried about miscasts, every miscast with the book is quite manageable, the worst thing that happens is you lose 1 hit with the puppet, there are a few rolls you can get on two dice that aren't so easily fixed.

Sarah S
06-08-2009, 05:11
He has the Book of Secrets. It is the hits I was concerned about actually...

But now that you mention it, I seem to have been looking at it the wrong way.

Just don't lose the hero with the Puppet or you are screwed.

Draco74
06-08-2009, 13:57
If you must keep the Dragon, then give the rider Diabolic Splender. -1 LD to all terror tests caused byt the Dragon would be more helpful than the other three you mentioned.

Brother J
06-08-2009, 16:19
As with everyone else...The dragon probably isn't the best choice. The first time I took a dragon the lord caught a bolt thrower single shot, and by caught I mean, ate it...with his chest...Haven't used one since. It's just not worth the risk really. You can get the same benefits with a Disc of Tzeentch. (You shouldn't be throwing Sorcerers into close combat regardless of the fact that WoC Sorc's are the same as Empire CC heroes.)

mikepm07
06-08-2009, 21:08
I'm sorry but doesn't the Book of Secrets make miscasts WORSE because you roll 1d6+1 on the miscast table compared to 2d6. Meaning you're much more likely to get a lower result, which is, worse.

If that's true a level 4 is the last person in the world I'd put the Book of Secrets on. If you have to give it to someone give it to a BSB or level 1/2.

Drachen_Jager
06-08-2009, 21:18
Ahh but an Infernal Puppet allows you to modify rolls by +-1 which allows you to avoid any of the nasty low rolls. Rolls on two dice of 9-12 are really annoying, lose a spell, or a spell and a level or just end the magic phase, all suck for a magic heavy army. With a d6+1 though 1/3 of the time nothing happens on a miscast, the rest of the time you take a Str 6 hit, or you let your opponent cast a spell (though I'd only do that if he has only lvl 2s).

This is beginning to sound like the duel in "the Princess Bride"

"Ahh I see you are using Bonneti's defence against me!"

"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain."

"Then you should expect me to attack with Cappa Fera!"

"I tend to find that Bonneti's cancels out Cappa Fera."

"Ahh, unless your opponent has studied Hissaglippa." [insert backflip here] "Which I have!"

Havock
06-08-2009, 21:58
Better not go for Gateway with that guy, the ~20% miscast rate will really bite your ass in a hurry, even with the Puppet.

Doesn't matter. Save it for last so all the other spells really go through. It's a small chance but people do somewhat dislike the possibility of losing lord/hitty unit in one go :p

Mullitron
07-08-2009, 07:26
Ahh but an Infernal Puppet allows you to modify rolls by +-1 which allows you to avoid any of the nasty low rolls. Rolls on two dice of 9-12 are really annoying, lose a spell, or a spell and a level or just end the magic phase, all suck for a magic heavy army. With a d6+1 though 1/3 of the time nothing happens on a miscast, the rest of the time you take a Str 6 hit, or you let your opponent cast a spell (though I'd only do that if he has only lvl 2s).

This is beginning to sound like the duel in "the Princess Bride"

"Ahh I see you are using Bonneti's defence against me!"

"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain."

"Then you should expect me to attack with Cappa Fera!"

"I tend to find that Bonneti's cancels out Cappa Fera."

"Ahh, unless your opponent has studied Hissaglippa." [insert backflip here] "Which I have!"

Actualy infernal puppet allows you to modify miscast rolls by d3, not just 1 so its even better : )