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Tuch
07-08-2009, 02:23
So my son is interested in resurrecting my old Hordes of Chaos all mounted army style. Is this still effective with the new book and Chaos Knights not being core anymore?

He made up a 1500 list with some Marauder Horsemen, Hounds, Knights, a Giant, 3 Ogres and 3 Tzeentch Sorcerers (one on a disc) and it seemed ok though the model count is really low (like only 38-40 ish). Do these list styles work as well as they used to or is all mounted Chaos dead with the new books at higher point levels?

lcfr
07-08-2009, 02:26
Yes, it's still very much effective. As far as I'm concerned, it's the best possible build for WoC as warriors on foot (in my opinion) are too expensive for what they do and too easily avoidable. Just my 2 cents, but I field an all-cav WoC list myself and I like it. If anything, maybe 3 sorcerors at 1.5k is a little much and can explain for the low model count; a scroll caddy and an exalted can get you by in the character department. WoC characters are pretty expensive and so are WoC troops, so too many points spent on characters will really thin out your army.

Nabeshin1106
07-08-2009, 02:30
I've had great luck with my all mounted WoC force. I only have 1500 right now, and that consists of 2 Disc Sorcs, 2 Units of Horsemen w/ Flails, 2 units of Hounds, and 3 units of Knights. I've actually been having better luck with this list than my Daemons lately. I plan on getting another sorc or 2, another unit of Horsemen and another unit of Knights or Drogres for my 2250.

Yrrdead
07-08-2009, 02:45
One of my normal opponents is a WoC player and he runs an all mounted list, generally two Tzeentch sorcs on discs, one lvl 4 DP w/tendrils, two units of knights, two units of dragon ogre's, 3 units of Marauder horseman and a warshrine or MoS Giant.

I would say its pretty darn effective.

Cider
07-08-2009, 02:51
I love the speed of mounted WoC. my 2000pts army is throgg with 3 units of 4 trolls (core)
3 units of 4 dragon ogres with great weapons
2 warshrines both slaanesh and 1 unit of mar hoursemen with throwing spears and I think flails.

but it works well, and is unexpected by many people, and turn two you are in combat with the dragon ogres so its nice!

Havock
07-08-2009, 03:14
Yes, it's still very much effective. As far as I'm concerned, it's the best possible build for WoC as warriors on foot (in my opinion) are too expensive for what they do and too easily avoidable. Just my 2 cents, but I field an all-cav WoC list myself and I like it. If anything, maybe 3 sorcerors at 1.5k is a little much and can explain for the low model count; a scroll caddy and an exalted can get you by in the character department. WoC characters are pretty expensive and so are WoC troops, so too many points spent on characters will really thin out your army.

Yet those three wizards do make you count in the magic phase.

TheSanityAssassin
07-08-2009, 04:43
Just played against an all mounted Chaos list with my High Elves, and it was brutal for him, but that said, he had some expensive blocks of Frenzied marauder horse that just shattered on ASF, and I managed to bait his big Knight unit into my combat-rez-monster Phoenix Guard, who broke them, then charged again the next turn and ran them off the table.

bork da basher
07-08-2009, 06:13
all mounted chaos is the optimum build for WOC these days. i play tzeentch mounted army and am doing really well with it.

xsamx
07-08-2009, 10:39
I agree, i think infantry WoC are not worth the hassle. All mounted (with a warshrine or two in tow) is much better.

That said, my 1500 point list ive just done is combat heavy and i have a super cheap lvl 1 wiz on foot with two dispel scrolls. but he pretty much just sits at the deployment zone for the duration. (he rides on the warshrine when they're cruising lookin' for their next victims!)

Kerill
07-08-2009, 12:06
It is effective, it is not however the only way to play them competitively.

PARTYCHICORITA
07-08-2009, 13:14
all mounted chaos is the optimum build for WOC these days.

True. Cavalry backed up by characters on discs is pretty much brutal vs most armies.
I wouldn't recommend magic heavy WoC since the lore of Tzeench sucks IMO.

bork da basher
07-08-2009, 17:38
i beg to differ at least through my own experience. lore of tzeentch is fantastic, easily the best of the chaos lores with some really nice spells. forget about eternal gateway we've all heard about its pros and cons but even so much as flickering fire which is for it's casting value of 3+ the best no.1 spell in the game. spells like pandemonium are devestating when used at the correct moment and although treason isnt useful against everyone you get it off on a unit of high strength low armour save troops and watch it eat half a unit. of course call to glory is pretty terrible and transmog is OK at best (unless you cast it on a vargulf ;) ) but what lore doesnt have situational/dodgy spells?

overall ive found tzeentch lore to be superior or at least on par with most other lores ive come accross in games with some truly devestating spells aswell as decent tactical spells and don't forget +1 to cast on it all makes a BIG differance.

dapredator66
07-08-2009, 18:07
I have played an all mounted cavalry and it is effective. Your initial conclusion about the model count is true: the list does not forgive mistakes (you just can't loose to many knights). This is especially true with a character heavy list (although you are playing a little game of point denial there). The low model count is also one of the reasons you see ogres/dragon ogres with these kind of list (cheapest effective way to add some wounds to the list).

I would also add that adding flying characters really work in synergy with the list (hence the popularity of Tzeentch). I would not however go as far as saying that the Tzeentch lore is the best. For lvl 2 sorcerer maybe (but Nurgle is as good). For a Sorcerer Lord, all the lores are good (yes even Slaanesh, it really shines with a lvl4, anyone ever tried Ecstatic Seizures on a demon unit... I did and it is brutal).

Drachen_Jager
07-08-2009, 19:09
The low model count is also one of the reasons you see ogres/dragon ogres with these kind of list (cheapest effective way to add some wounds to the list).

Warhounds are better, 30 points a unit makes them nearly the cheapest unit in the game, I highly reccomend 5+ units at 2k, they are the only completely expendable unit WoC can get. I have never had a game where I wished I'd brought less dogs (I typically bring 7 units at 2k).

bork da basher
07-08-2009, 19:21
i agree doggies are very useful, they do little other than die in droves but they do it so your knights don't have to. a unit of 5 dogs is less than a single knight. if your using khorne knights they are invaluable as screens. ive yet to kill a single thing with them but they have been there on the flank a few times and made a differance.

xsamx
07-08-2009, 21:24
The warhound debate confuses me..


7 units at 2k points?! where do you find the room to deploy all your units? I find they often hinder movement of my fast calv/knights and prevent charges. I take one unit to screen a knight regiment that lacks MR, but find even with the one unit i struggle to maneuver effectively on a lot of boards.

GenerationTerrorist
07-08-2009, 21:28
All-Cavalry WoC army seems to fit in the Chaos "theme" of a fast, hard hitting invasion force IMHO.

As for it's effectiveness, it can be hit and miss but definately more hit than an infantry-heavy WoC army would be. In 2250 games I run:

Lvl4 MoT on Disc
Lvl2 MoT on Disc
Exalted MoT BSB on Disc (with Book of Secrets if possible)
Lvl1 MoT (with Puppet) hiding in my big Knight unit

2 units of 6 Warhounds
1 unit of 7 Warhounds
3 units of 5 Marauder Horsemen with Flails
2 units of 5 MoT Knights
1 unit of 6 Knights with Champ and Standard

The only army I REALLY hate playing and struggle against is those damn pesky Wood Elves. Anything else tends to be a pretty good and entertaining matchup.

Havock
07-08-2009, 21:57
The warhound debate confuses me..


7 units at 2k points?! where do you find the room to deploy all your units? I find they often hinder movement of my fast calv/knights and prevent charges. I take one unit to screen a knight regiment that lacks MR, but find even with the one unit i struggle to maneuver effectively on a lot of boards.

That's too much IMHO, but you can always place two in adjacent corners to jsut claim/contest table quarters.

Drachen_Jager
07-08-2009, 22:26
The warhound debate confuses me..


7 units at 2k points?! where do you find the room to deploy all your units? I find they often hinder movement of my fast calv/knights and prevent charges. I take one unit to screen a knight regiment that lacks MR, but find even with the one unit i struggle to maneuver effectively on a lot of boards.

Normally at 2k+ I take 4 units of Knights, usually deployed with 2-3 in the middle and 1-2 on the flank, so with 3 in the middle they have 4 units of dogs in front against missile opponents to shield the knights and maybe a unit or two on the flank with the knights if he has a lot of shooty stuff over there. 2 units go on the other flank for 3 reasons (maybe more) 1) Scout blocking 2) Deployment confusion (if I deploy 2 units of dogs most opponents expect Knights to follow and it often messes up their deployment) 3) Flanking/getting into the rear (warmachines etc).

I've never felt trapped because I normally spread them across the whole board, once I threw 4 units at a Giant to keep him out of my hair (kept him off my back the whole game actually). I suppose if you tried to deploy everything in a row it would take up lots of space but with Knights behind dogs I've never had a shortage of space and with a Mv of 7 you can easily get them out of the way of your Knights if you have to, just wheel them 90 degrees and they don't take up much space at all. I've had huge success with my Knights and I think the dogs are a good part of the reason.

Tuch
08-08-2009, 00:06
What are the thoughts on using a unit of 6 Marauder Horsemen of Khorne with light armor, shields, and flails, SB and musician as a medium cavalry? The are faster than most other cavalry at 8 instead of 7 move and do lose the mounted cavalry bonuses, but there cost for what they can put out seems a fair trade. A unit of them almost seems better than a unit of ogres with chaos armor and great weapons for the same price. Plus they are core :)

The Red Scourge
08-08-2009, 00:27
Don't give horsemen shields. The fast cavalry trait is their most valuable trait, as it lets you work around their frenzy.

Also don't waste points on a SB. Either they steam roll their enemy or they don't. A SB is worth his weight in gold on knights though.

But best unit of all is probably a Khorne BSB on a jugger :)

Regarding the doggies, I can't praise theํr worth highly enough. I usually run 4 units of 5 at just about any battle size, and usually deploy them 3 wide for maneuverability. Their purposes are so many; screening units from enemy missile fire, shielding characters from cannon sniping (better one dead 6 pt. dog than a 40 pt. knight), flanking units and hunting warmachines - this latter one I find especially useful, as you really don't want to waste a 2-300 point knights unit on chasing warmachines :)

Havock
09-08-2009, 02:04
Shields OR light armor is golden, both are not.

Cypher, the Emperor
10-08-2009, 05:34
I'm a big Chogre fan, even if many people aren't. They seem to do the most out of all the utility units in my army. Sure they cost around the same a knights and have a worse save. But in a game where you have both, people always gun for the knights based on reputation alone and then get surprised by the ogres.

MTUCache
11-08-2009, 02:43
I'm a big Chogre fan, even if many people aren't. They seem to do the most out of all the utility units in my army. Sure they cost around the same a knights and have a worse save. But in a game where you have both, people always gun for the knights based on reputation alone and then get surprised by the ogres.

I'm wondering whether you feel the "upgrade" to Trolls is worth it. Sure, the leadership (and the 10 extra points) sucks, but the regen, the vomit, and the extra EotG rolls are very tempting. I hate to give up on the GWs, and I'm not altogether thrilled about keeping them in the leadership bubble of the general, but their benefits seem to make them a big plus in a WoC-monster list.

I figure by the time I would mark and kit-out the ogres I'm essentially paying the same price anyway for a unit of four.

Then again, a couple units of vanilla Ogres is a pretty sweet deal economy-wise. Saves you a ton of points to pump into characters or a couple tooled up units of knights.

Cider
11-08-2009, 03:27
Wow IMHO I think knights are too many points for what you are getting. take a squad of 5 knights and give em fc = 250 pts they have 5 wounds on a 2+ save. with 11 total attacks and 5 more from horses. unit counts as 10

now run a unit of 4 dragon ogres with great weapons = 308 pts. but you have 4 wounds a peice, and three attacks each at strangh 7 where the knights are strengh 5. unit counts as 12

yes the knights at first are better. but after one or two die your attacks go down huge. where the dragon ogres still have 3 maybe 4 models left. this is where i see that they become worth there points as my opp always underestimates the fact they have 4 wounds each with a 4+ save. but that strengh 7 hurts them more then they do to me!

dice it off 4 dragon ogres vs anything wins over 5 knights vs that same anything.

Cider
11-08-2009, 03:32
trolls are great if you have throgg in the army as he makes the trolls count as core. so throgg (175) + 4 trolls (180) X 3 units = 715 pts and you still have more then enough pts left over for knights (booooo) or dragon ogres (woot woot) maybe some mar horsemen if you like. warshrines, kholek even???? its great. and it is a nice way to theame the army as an all beast. without needing to use the beast book.

Kerill
11-08-2009, 04:11
Wow IMHO I think knights are too many points for what you are getting. take a squad of 5 knights and give em fc = 250 pts they have 5 wounds on a 2+ save. with 11 total attacks and 5 more from horses. unit counts as 10

now run a unit of 4 dragon ogres with great weapons = 308 pts. but you have 4 wounds a peice, and three attacks each at strangh 7 where the knights are strengh 5. unit counts as 12

yes the knights at first are better. but after one or two die your attacks go down huge. where the dragon ogres still have 3 maybe 4 models left. this is where i see that they become worth there points as my opp always underestimates the fact they have 4 wounds each with a 4+ save. but that strengh 7 hurts them more then they do to me!

dice it off 4 dragon ogres vs anything wins over 5 knights vs that same anything.

Knights have a 1+ save, and you wouldn't need FC. 6 Khorne Knights are 270 points. Even if 2 die they can comfortably break infantry and rack up kills taking (usually) no losses in return. 4 Khorne knights= 7.3 wounds against most infantry, enough to break them and ensure few or no attacks back. 4 Dragon ogres are more expensive and will on average lose against a fully ranked regiment because of the musician and may lose by a lot more against spearmen/ASF units.

Dragon ogres are great, don't get me wrong but they are a more specific tool- big nasties, character hunting and cavalry hunting if they can get the charge. If charged by half decent cavalry (say empire knights with war banner and a warrior priest) the dragon ogres will take a break test at -2, if they pass they will probably mince the knights eventually so a bsb helps them a lot, as do the 4+ regen and frenzy spells.

Knights are good against everything, dragon ogres are better against some things, worse against others, having both in a list is a good idea, but if I had to choose one it would be the cheaper knights (except against lizardmen or Teclis of course).

As a hammer unit I'm not convinced by chaos ogres, even Khorne marked, but as a flanker or supported by something else (bsb on disk, chariot) then they could do well and spreads your eggs around a bit more.

Consider:
4 Khorne Ogres with standard, GW and chaos armour- 220 points (6.6 wounds on the charge +1CR from standard) but more likely to give up CR to return attacks against spears or against ASF.
or
3 Ogres, GW + slaaneshi chariot- 265 (more expensive its true)

The second combination is much more likely to break units (9.4 wounds on charge) and gives your opponents two threats to worry about instead of one. You are also getting a 3D6 pursuit/flee move thrown in there which can be handy and a 14" charge range from the chariot to keep cavalry honest.

TheSanityAssassin
11-08-2009, 04:46
Never underestimate the value of that 3d6 pursuit from Chariots. My 85 pt Tiranoc Chariots with my Elves are fantastic for that. Throw them in a combat you know you'll win anyways, and just let them clean up the unit that breaks.

sulla
11-08-2009, 19:40
Never underestimate the value of that 3d6 pursuit from Chariots. My 85 pt Tiranoc Chariots with my Elves are fantastic for that. Throw them in a combat you know you'll win anyways, and just let them clean up the unit that breaks.Chuck marauder horse with flails into the flank instead for even more reliable run downs though, thanks to the horselords rule.

decker_cky
12-08-2009, 04:04
Dragon ogres are great, don't get me wrong but they are a more specific tool- big nasties, character hunting and cavalry hunting if they can get the charge. If charged by half decent cavalry (say empire knights with war banner and a warrior priest) the dragon ogres will take a break test at -2, if they pass they will probably mince the knights eventually so a bsb helps them a lot, as do the 4+ regen and frenzy spells.

You're ridiculous Kerill. If unit that is more likely to get charged than it is to charge (because of hounds and fear) gets the charge, it will win by 2 so the 230 pt unit isn't worth it.

Your chaos knight unit you just gave (which included another half dragon ogre in points) loses by 1-2 when charged by the same empire knight unit. Guess it didn't support your point?

Knights get better as things get softer, but are pretty good overall. Knights really lose a lot against WS5+ and T4+. Dragon ogres punch through everything pretty much equally because armour and toughness is insignificant, so they compare better as things have more armour or are tougher.

Dragon ogres tend to keep their attacks longer, but give up a bit more CR. Knights tend to shrug off weaker attacks, but can really suffer as they take S6+ and armour ignoring attacks.

I think the earlier statement that it's better to have both is the key. A unit of 3 dragon ogres is pretty much critical mass for them filling their role, while knights quickly will reach 300 pts with standard loadouts (as they tend to take banners and magic banners). Both are a good deal for what they provide.

And I have to say: Dragon ogres could fit...but all the M6 40mm infantry is NOT mounted. I'd say an all mounted/all cavalry list should have only MV7+ stuff (aside from warshrines which work since they're mostly chariots).

bullshiz20
12-08-2009, 06:09
should i play with an all mounted army? check out my list plz!:)

Isabel
12-08-2009, 06:38
should i play with an all mounted army? check out my list plz!:)

Sure, if you enjoy that style of play ;)
It's a good army build, just not all that friendly. It tends to butcher enemies within just a few turns.

bork da basher
12-08-2009, 06:57
i have to disagree with that. they arn't all powerful and require alot of thought to use correctly, even chaos knights can't hope to break reliably a fully ranked unit of infantry let alone a elite ranked unit. your hounds will only get you so far and your horsemen are the easiest VP, a small unit of archers can and will take a unit of horsemen off the table each turn (bitter experience) and although loads of knights is powerful metagame your often whittled down to the point of collapse. it's alot tougher than you think and ALOT will ride on what charecters you take aswell. IMO khorne and tzeentch compliment the army and although i dislike it tzeentch sorcerers on discs and mark of khorne knights would be the way to go, i play mono tzeentch myself and have a truly awesome magic phase but because of it my knights often lack the punch i require to get through big units.

it also isn't as unfriendly as you'd imagine, its incredibly elite but the bulk is utterly flimsy and unable to stand any punishment. its fast of course with alot of potential for cheese but thats goes for alot of armies these days. trick it out and mix marks and it can be very unfriendly mind.

decker_cky
12-08-2009, 07:04
It's a powerful build, but once you start playing experienced players who know when to flee and can set up countercharges, etc.. it becomes something that can be dealt with. Chaos knights are rock hard, and even 3 or 4 is enough to hit units head on at times, and they don't fizzle out when not charging. If you're facing an army with decent artillery that gets a hill against you, you can really be whittled down quickly since it's really your four special choices that are the threats of your army.

Isabel
12-08-2009, 08:19
i have to disagree with that. they arn't all powerful and require alot of thought to use correctly, even chaos knights can't hope to break reliably a fully ranked unit of infantry let alone a elite ranked unit. your hounds will only get you so far and your horsemen are the easiest VP, a small unit of archers can and will take a unit of horsemen off the table each turn (bitter experience) and although loads of knights is powerful metagame your often whittled down to the point of collapse. it's alot tougher than you think and ALOT will ride on what charecters you take aswell. IMO khorne and tzeentch compliment the army and although i dislike it tzeentch sorcerers on discs and mark of khorne knights would be the way to go, i play mono tzeentch myself and have a truly awesome magic phase but because of it my knights often lack the punch i require to get through big units.

it also isn't as unfriendly as you'd imagine, its incredibly elite but the bulk is utterly flimsy and unable to stand any punishment. its fast of course with alot of potential for cheese but thats goes for alot of armies these days. trick it out and mix marks and it can be very unfriendly mind.



That just made my head spin reading lol. You say you disagree, but at no point did I say they were all powerfull or did not require plenty of thinking to use.
And in the same paragraph, you say it is not as unfriendly as I may think, then say it can be very unfriendly...

The point of me saying "It tends to butcher enemies within a few turns" is because with an all cavalry list, you should be down the opponents throat very early in the game, and can easily sweep across his line.