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Stronginthearm
09-08-2009, 00:09
Sorry yes this is a rant thread but I need to unload, the other day I was talking to a guy about 40k and I comment that I have a lash prince in my chaos army, just to be clear I dont have 2 princes or 3 units of oblits, and this guy just starts spouting about the cookie cutterness of my army, how I have no imagination and how I play jsut to beat other people into the ground, he gets to the end and I ask, "well what do you play" his response is Iron Warriors

I dont know if its fair to spout off about this but god it p*ssed me off

Silentbob10
09-08-2009, 00:15
Hmm well dude ppl are allowed to rant about want they want as you are doing now. If he doesnt like your list its his problem not yours i suppose its just the way ppl think. Lash princes are very harsh even if there is just 1 of them and most ppl i know dont use them or lash at all for that matter in friendly games but at the end of the day its up to the player not the opponant.
If youve went to the trouble of making a nice slannesh Daemon prince which uve converted or painted then id be fine with it but if u just had a plain prince which today uve decided is slannesh then i would complain as your doing it to win and not to model.

isaac
09-08-2009, 00:16
Sigh, it saddens me that people act like this. 1 unit of a cheese combo =/= cheese!

Mannimarco
09-08-2009, 00:20
whoa there you have a single lash prince and no obliterators? you cheesy waac powergamer!

seriously though i cant stand people who have a problem with this, yes the twin prince/obliterator spam list is one of those things that put people off chaos players but thats not really an excuse to have a go at people who (like yourself) take one prince

unfortunately theres a mind set that twin prince and several obliterators is cheesy, but so is single prince and no obliterators, so what are you to do? do you play emperors children? are you going for a fluffy army? are you to rewrok your entire army list just becoause one person screams cheese at somthing that (lets face it) isnt really that cheesy

oh he plays iron warriors? obliterators are fluffly for an iron warrior list, wonder how many he fields, or does he favour the triple vindi list? no of course not because compared to that single lash priince those would be cheese incarnate and hes just shown how much he hates that

kormas
09-08-2009, 00:21
i have to say that one lash isnt toooo bad assuming your arm is at least slightly themed. i wouldnt like to play against it tbh but i would still play and try to make sure it was still a fun game...but for someone who plays iron warriors (i assume he had LOTS of oblits) it is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black..except that it is a miniture kettle and a MASSIVE pot

Silentbob10
09-08-2009, 00:22
Just 1 thing its best not to assume he has lots of oblits as u may be judjing him unfairly (although if he does then i agree with u)

Mannimarco
09-08-2009, 00:24
fair enough, stronginthearm, does he field obliterators or vindicators?

kormas
09-08-2009, 00:25
Just 1 thing its best not to assume he has lots of oblits as u may be judjing him unfairly (although if he does then i agree with u)

:D yeah, i guss i might be assuming a bit to much, but when i hear iron wariors i think: lots of vindicators and/or lots of oblits (i have had some nasty encounters with iron warriors so i might be a little biased :D)

Signal
09-08-2009, 00:55
Sorry yes this is a rant thread but I need to unload, the other day I was talking to a guy about 40k and I comment that I have a lash prince in my chaos army, just to be clear I dont have 2 princes or 3 units of oblits, and this guy just starts spouting about the cookie cutterness of my army, how I have no imagination and how I play jsut to beat other people into the ground, he gets to the end and I ask, "well what do you play" his response is Iron Warriors

I dont know if its fair to spout off about this but god it p*ssed me off

This man is a jerk. Every local gaming store has at least one of these.

Wut?
09-08-2009, 01:03
you should claim to play dual lash princes and three vindis, just to see the reactions. i imagine that they would be amusing and if he starts mouthing off then jokes on him.

btw you like prattchet stronginthearm?

Aesc
09-08-2009, 01:52
Sorry yes this is a rant thread but I need to unload, the other day I was talking to a guy about 40k and I comment that I have a lash prince in my chaos army, just to be clear I dont have 2 princes or 3 units of oblits, and this guy just starts spouting about the cookie cutterness of my army, how I have no imagination and how I play jsut to beat other people into the ground, he gets to the end and I ask, "well what do you play" his response is Iron Warriors

I dont know if its fair to spout off about this but god it p*ssed me off

That's because every one hates lash princes. If you continue to play them, you will continue to catch hell about it. Solution? Do something different.

shabbadoo
09-08-2009, 01:57
Sorry yes this is a rant thread but I need to unload, the other day I was talking to a guy about 40k and I comment that I have a lash prince in my chaos army, just to be clear I dont have 2 princes or 3 units of oblits, and this guy just starts spouting about the cookie cutterness of my army, how I have no imagination and how I play jsut to beat other people into the ground, he gets to the end and I ask, "well what do you play" his response is Iron Warriors

I dont know if its fair to spout off about this but god it p*ssed me off

You should have asked him how many Basilisks he had that were now useless. :evilgrin: Way too many players humped Perturabo's leg for that 4th Heavy Support choice last codex by becoming Iron Warriors players, especially in the tournament scene. Talk about cookie cutter. :p

As to your Lash Daemon Prince, do you play a fully Slaanesh-themed army? If not, the guy didn't really insult you now, did he. He just called you out. ;)

Mannimarco
09-08-2009, 01:57
the difference is hes playing one lash prince, this is NOT lash spam and doesnt deserve the hate, just because somthing in the codex is hated doesnt mean it should be torn to pieces when sombody does it on a smaller scale:

plague marines are considered by many to be cheesy, guess they shouldnt be taken at all then, you can spam them or take one squad, either way your gonna be hated

wanna take a small squad of nob bikers? dont, the level of hate you will get is the same as if you decided to take an army of them

one obliterator? you WAAC powergaming jerk! might as well be 9 obliterators

see the distinction? he is doing somthing different: hes taking one lash prince, this is in no way cheesy

Stronginthearm
09-08-2009, 02:01
Ok answering to begin yes I'm a pratchett fan and yes also I field a single unit of oblits

My 2k points is roughly

10 CSM Missle
10 CSM Missle
6 Noise Marines
7 Plague Marines
3 Oblits
1 Defiler
1 Dreadnought
1 Predator Destroyer
1 Prince Wings Lash

I'm not saying my list isnt slightly cheesey but I was just annoyed when he ranted to me about how cheesey my army was and then goes off about his list being fair with him playing iron warriors

kormas
09-08-2009, 03:06
tbh that realy doesnt look like a cheesy list to me. 3 oblits is okish, and you havne spred them around in multiple units. the defiler is easily killed because of the lack of other fire magnets in you army. you dont have maxed squads of cult marines. 2*10 CSM with missile is easily killed off, hell you have even taken a dred. i would say that this is actuly a slghtly weak list, possably boardig on the balanced. in no way is any part of it cheese. just wondering but did the iron warrior player use lots of oblits?/ vindicators?

BrotherMoses
09-08-2009, 03:17
The plan has worked, Chaos is turning upon itself. Proceed as planned :evilgrin:

Seriously though, that guy was doing the same thing you're doing I guess, just letting off steam. He just doesn't have the.... tact to do it in an anonymous way. He had no business jumping to conclusions and bashing your list. I'm betting he's a little sore from his loss of extra heavy supports and was just venting. Heck, maybe he's had a bad experience, like having his oblits lashed around or something?

Axis
09-08-2009, 03:34
I think the dude is a idiot. But a lot of people here are being a bit silly too..

You don't have to play fully slaanesh to take a lash-prince. You dont have to play fully khorne to take a khorne prince. All this stuff about theme has got a bit over the top. For some reason if you aren't gimping yourself by taking only 1 god then you aren't playing thematically.

Somewhere in the last decade, at least on the internet, the word theme has become so dumb. You have to make an all or nothing theme or it isn't a theme.

HsojVvad
09-08-2009, 04:09
Geez complaining about taking a unit you like in the codex? What is next? Everyone taking a SM because they get a 3+ savemMy god, would that be cheese that is too?

So him taking Iron Warriors, is cheesy because his units have a 3+ save (unless I am wrong, wich is most times lol) you didn't deserve it.

Stronginthearm
09-08-2009, 05:11
I'm not sure what u mean here Hsoj Iron warriors used to be considered chaos cheese in some circles due to their ability to take 9 obliterators which were even godlier in the old codex then the one now, they had better toughness and if im not mistaken immunity to instant death and were 5 points cheaper too
Iron warriors also could have 4 heavy support choices, the 3+ save thing is all space marines what are you trying to say?

Axis
09-08-2009, 06:56
He is making the point that iron warriors aren't cheesy and just because someone takes them doesn't mean you can ridicule them for win at all costs/cheesefest. Some iron warriors lists are cheesy but that isn't because they are iron warriors it is because the players went out of their way to be cheesy.

It was the same in the old codex. Iron warriors weren't inherently cheesy, it was just easy to do it.

His point is one about same standards across the board. No one should whinge at the OP for taking a lash prince even if his army is not mono-slaanesh. In the same way no one should whinge about someone taking iron warriors.

You might have reasons to complain about him taking 9 oblits/3 vindicators or whatever. BUt that isn't iron warriors fault that is player.

marv335
09-08-2009, 09:38
I have similar problems.
I want to field an Ork Speed Freek army. I've always loved the evil sunz and a whole army of bikes and buggies rampaging over the board is awesome to behold.
But now I'm between a rock and a hard place.
I can either use
a) two warbosses and two units of Nob Bikers (not the preferred option, too expensive)
or
b) Use Wazdakka to make the bikers troops.
I prefer b) because I can then get a bike mounted Big Mek as my 2nd Hq.

djinn8
09-08-2009, 13:08
I don't really get the whole, OMG cheese thing attached to Lash Princes. I tried running a list with them in the otherday against IG and got creamed. OK, it was only a 1000 point game but still...

My list was something like this:

Winged Lash Prince
Terminator Lash Sorcerer (Deep Strike)
3x Terminators (Deepstrike)
2x Obliterator (Deepstrike)
2x 5 man Plage Marine Units
7x Bezerkers

Ther game went something like this: 1st Turn the Deamon Prince kicked the bucket while the troops tried to hide as best they could until re-enforcements arrived.

The Terminators and the Obliterators arrived turn 3 and the troops took their arrival as their cue to go over the top. One Obliterator destroyed a Russ while the second failed to hurt anything. The Terminators did nothing before being killed by Lascannons and Snipers.

Turn 4 herlded the arrival of the Sorcerer, while the Berzerkers fell to enemy fire. With the Sorcerers aid, the Plague Marines hit the main body of the IG gunline and over next two turns wiped one side of the board clear of Guardsmen. meanwhile the surviving IG had fallen back to create a second gunline, one which my meger forces wouldn't be able to advance upon. It took one more round of shooting to table the Chaos forces.

So much for the awesome power of the Cheese list.

Zingbaby
09-08-2009, 13:15
Sorry yes this is a rant thread but I need to unload, the other day I was talking to a guy about 40k and I comment that I have a lash prince in my chaos army, just to be clear I dont have 2 princes or 3 units of oblits, and this guy just starts spouting about the cookie cutterness of my army, how I have no imagination and how I play jsut to beat other people into the ground, he gets to the end and I ask, "well what do you play" his response is Iron Warriors

I dont know if its fair to spout off about this but god it p*ssed me off

Some people just suck dude... your preachin to the choir here. :)

I've played Blood Angels since the beginning of 40k in the US... there was a period of approximately 12 years that my army was terribly stigmatized as a super cheese 'one-trick-pony'; and I played mostly for the painting and modeling.

Funny that Iron Warriors were the "cookie cutter" army of the last Chaos dex and he's breakin your nads. What a jerk.

EVIL INC
09-08-2009, 13:56
Just about every army has thier cheese combos and you will always have people who think the worst of others and make such accusations to cover for thier own shortcomings as a player so they can feel better about themselves when they lose.
Dont worry about what people like that say about your army and just make a mental note to avoid that person in the future.

Lord Damocles
09-08-2009, 14:00
Iron Warriors
Wait, are you implying that Iron Warriors are cheesy so he shouldn't have complained about a Lash prince?

If so, doesn't this rant seem a little hypocritical?

EVIL INC
09-08-2009, 14:05
You know, I have yet to see one of these mythical dual lash prince, pie plate armies. I did see a fair few of the old IW armies though. Not to say that these dual lashies dont exist somewhere though. Of course, I also say the same thing about bigfoot and nessie. ;)

Stronginthearm
09-08-2009, 16:05
@Lord Damocles, in the last codex Iron warriors were considered by some(not actually me but thats because I have a hard time making Oblits work) the epitiymy of chaos cheese, I thought it was unfair of him to slam me and they make the statement about playing iron warriors, I'm not saying im not playing a slightly cheesey force but if hes gonna slam me about it then i think it would be more justified if he played something like Eldar or Demonhunters

iluvatar18
09-08-2009, 16:14
@Stronginthearm,
As you know, I live in your area :O.

Anyways, I was playing the same guy's son who you were talking too. His son played Orks. THE GAME TOOK 3 AND A HALF HOURS. The kid didn't know the rules, his stats, or anything about his army. Needless to say I won with my Necrons, and after the game the father declared all Necron armies are cheese and got up and quickly left the store with his son. (I had a match with the father after I agreed to play the son, which may I say was a twin lash prince, 3 Oblits, a vindicator and all plague marine army. (I saw his list))

My Necron army I used yesterday was this:

Necron Lord, Warscythe, Orb
45 Warriors
6 Destroyers
Monolith
Total: 1495

Someone please tell me how that army is cheese, or how any Necron army for that matter with their current state of the codex is cheese.

boogle
09-08-2009, 16:20
stronginthearm - you're taking a Dread in your list, which is one of the worst choices, so you far from cheese, you have a balanced list IMHO

Cythus
09-08-2009, 16:26
this brings up one of the few reasons why I like Necrons.
If nearly any other race was to field a str 10 ws 6 a 5 close combat monster (ignoring all saves) the cries of cheese / powergamer would be unbearable. But as Necrons I just get "Nightbringer, now that's cool"
Mind you, this attitude may have something to do with not have won with my necrons for donkeys years, they know it doesn't matter if I field it as they will still win.

On topic now, its unfair for you that fielding one good unit gets you slammed. Next time just explain that takin one good unit is hardly cheese.

Stronginthearm
09-08-2009, 17:17
necrons arent cheese they just fail to suck, bit like tau

Lord Damocles
09-08-2009, 20:55
@Lord Damocles, in the last codex Iron warriors were considered by some(not actually me but thats because I have a hard time making Oblits work) the epitiymy of chaos cheese, I thought it was unfair of him to slam me and they make the statement about playing iron warriors, I'm not saying im not playing a slightly cheesey force but if hes gonna slam me about it then i think it would be more justified if he played something like Eldar or Demonhunters
But Iron Warriors arn't at all cheesy any more (since they're just generic Chaos Marines.

If you go with the reasoning that playing a force which in past editions was considered cheesy, you shouldn't criticise current cheese; then Eldar are a very perculiar chouce in your example...

EVIL INC
09-08-2009, 21:00
Luckily, Iron warriors can not only be represented more accurately, they are a FAR cry from being "just generic" chaos marines. Just be glad you arent using the one trick pony list you saw in last edition. They are still highly competative, you just need to use tactics now.

Lord Damocles
09-08-2009, 21:03
Luckily, Iron warriors can not only be represented more accurately, they are a FAR cry from being "just generic" chaos marines. Just be glad you arent using the one trick pony list you saw in last edition. They are still highly competative, you just need to use tactics now.
What I meant was that they now use the standard list without having a bajillion overpowered rules and reorganisations.

From that point of view they're generic, just as the Fire Lords are generic loyalist Marines.

DuskRaider
09-08-2009, 21:39
All Iron Warriors are in the new codex is a paint scheme.

With that said, I don't think your list was cheesy at all. Do what I do... Let them run their mouth, let them get their way with wonky rules (I've had players pull some BS just for the sake of trying to win), and then table him anyhow. Ignore the running of the mouth.

EVIL INC
09-08-2009, 21:45
The paint scheme and how you model/convert/paint your models is all you need because the way the codex is set up, you can effectively and fluffily have any of the legions.
True, your list is not cheesy, they are just crying wolf.

12345_7
09-08-2009, 21:49
If a lash-prince is cheese then the masque must be god-grade cheese.

DuskRaider
09-08-2009, 23:48
The paint scheme and how you model/convert/paint your models is all you need because the way the codex is set up, you can effectively and fluffily have any of the legions.
True, your list is not cheesy, they are just crying wolf.

:rolleyes:
We're not starting this again. You have your opinion, I have mine.


If a lash-prince is cheese then the masque must be god-grade cheese.

Yeah, it's funny... I haven't heard anyone complain about the Masque... Or the fact you can have 7 Lashes in a Daemon army. I'm thinking it's because Daemons have little to no range, so it's not a huge hang up. That and people complain about Daemons in general, they just haven't gotten around to complaining about that yet :D

Nym
10-08-2009, 00:06
Yeah, it's funny... I haven't heard anyone complain about the Masque... Or the fact you can have 7 Lashes in a Daemon army.
Pavane of Slaanesh and Lash of Submission aren't nearly in the same star system :

D6 move instead of 2D6, roll to hit instead of Ld test, less range, and can't use it twice on the same unit in a given turn. Plus, Pavane doesn't make you take a Pinning test.

Pavane is somewhat balanced. Lash is the exact definition of 'overpowered'.

Troah
10-08-2009, 01:37
Psssst. What's a Lash Prince?

Mannimarco
10-08-2009, 01:49
a prince with the mark of slaanesh and lash of submission

samiens
10-08-2009, 01:53
Um, who cares really? you know what, i play competitive builds and if people don't like it thats their issue. Your list is hardly that bad and you shouldn't avoid putting things in a list because they are good-that's the kind of wierd elitist army maiking policy that alienates a lot of 40k players.

My advice- field whatever you most want to and tell yhim to suck it up- after all he's just being a bad loser

Troah
10-08-2009, 01:56
a prince with the mark of slaanesh and lash of submission

Ok so a Daemon Prince with Slaanesh mark does something like always strike first or immune to panic, something like that?
What's the Lash of Submission do? And why is this combo so cheesy?
(No clue about anything Chaos in 40k in terms of codex)

Mannimarco
10-08-2009, 02:00
at the end of the day your taking a dreadnought, people who write cheesy lists tend to not take dreadnoughts

Ianos
10-08-2009, 03:18
Cheese is the battle-cry of the unprepared, play what you like and avoid bad losers

Orktavius
10-08-2009, 05:20
Lash princes are that deadly? Sorry, I've played a lash list with template spam before...the when my orcs were done with it the player in question pretty much decided he never wanted to play my orcs again *his lists had gotten cheesier and cheesier as he lost games to me...3 in total.* Now I don't really consider my army to be that cheesy but I'll let you folks here decide.
2000 pts
HQ
Warboss with powerclaw,eavy armor , cybork body
Shokk attack gun

Troops
10 nobz in eavy armor, cybork bodies, painboy,waagh banner 2 PK's and the rest uge choppas

30 slugga boys, nob PK

30 slugga boys, nob, PK

30 shoota boys, nob, pk,3 rokkits

30 shoota boys, nob, pk, 3 rokkits

Deff dread with 2 skorcha's

Elite
15 lootas, 12 deffguns 3 meks with kustom mega blaster
15 lootas, 12 deffguns, 3 meks with kustom mega blaster

he has a lash prince, a squad of oblits, vindicator, defiler, crap load of termies and a LR *2 termie squads* 3 tac squads and some other stuff in there I can't remember...he was dropping about 9-12 templates a turn. 1st turn saw me blow the gun off his defiler and stun the vindicator*I stole initiative* 2nd turn saw me kill the lash prince after it moved JUST into view while trying to lash me nobz. 3rd turn saw me roll into his extreme right flank with just about my whole army at which point I rolled up his entire army.

the game had been kill points with pitched battle and he'd set up in the left, center and right with relatively equally strengthed combat groups....I simply dropped my whole army on the exact opposite corner the LR was on, hit his right flank and rolled his whole bloody army. Princes still die easy to massed firepower.....and lash is only 24 inch range. Hard to hide from 48 inch range lootas and still be effective

adreal
10-08-2009, 08:01
Ok so a Daemon Prince with Slaanesh mark does something like always strike first or immune to panic, something like that?
What's the Lash of Submission do? And why is this combo so cheesy?
(No clue about anything Chaos in 40k in terms of codex)


Daemon Princes are already fearless
mark of slaanesh makes him I6 (IIRC, he usually goes first in combats)
lash of submission is a psy test that lets you move a unit within 24" 2D6" whereever you want them to, bunch them up, place htem in assault range, move them into dangerous terrain, whatever.

-IronWarrior-
10-08-2009, 08:08
Not Chaos players faults that the book blows.

I really wish I could go a different route and hang with some of those fun filled Eldar & Tyranid lists

Just not happening.

Thank you Gav Thorpe

Shadey
10-08-2009, 09:10
This has more to do with peoples tendancy to polarize things into extremes to fit a simpler classification than they care to think about, and the sheep mentality.

Unfortunately this has implications that FAR outweigh 40k or even table top wargaming in general.

Alls you can do is calmly, clearly explain how they are wrong. Try not to confuse them with big words :P

Troah
10-08-2009, 09:11
Daemon Princes are already fearless
mark of slaanesh makes him I6 (IIRC, he usually goes first in combats)
lash of submission is a psy test that lets you move a unit within 24" 2D6" whereever you want them to, bunch them up, place htem in assault range, move them into dangerous terrain, whatever.

That doesn't sound to bad. Why do people complain about it?

kormas
10-08-2009, 09:18
trust me, it isnt pretty when you prized unit of Bezerkers are bunched up nicely just awaiting that vindicator to drop a template on them. or i have just put them out of assult range for his Dp, so he lashes them ford and charges them, thus redering them useless for a few turns.

it also takes away control of your army, it is incredable frustrating to have your troops move when you dont want them to, tbh las princes arnt the worst, i personaly HATE lash sorcs, those things are realy realy bad..but only in pairs

Latro_
10-08-2009, 10:07
I dont understand why you'd run lash on a prince, Someone sees that and its lascannon fodder.

imo the cheeseier and much more scary option is to put lash on a sorcerer with a jump pack who is backed up by plague marines or bezerkers. So much harder to deal with.

boogle
10-08-2009, 10:18
I agree with Latro, the Prince is just screaming 'hello mr Demolisher', the Sorcerer, with possibly Raptor backup is much more of a threat

BrotherMoses
11-08-2009, 05:11
it also takes away control of your army, it is incredable frustrating to have your troops move when you dont want them to,

I think that is the main reason for most of the hate for it. Peope REALLY REALLY REALLY don't like that.

ReveredChaplainDrake
11-08-2009, 07:48
I really don't get what's so cheesy about the supposed "ultimate" CSM build: Lashprinces, Plague Marines, and Oblits. I kinda' see Lash + Oblit for large units, when bunching a unit up for a Plasma Cannon, but I see Defilers as far superior to Oblits for many reasons. However, every single Cult Marine unit works better in concert with Lashprinces than Plague Marines. Rubric Marines get their targets dragged out into the open, where their AP3 Bolters shred them horrifically. Khorne Berserkers use Lash to get into that all-important charge range. And Sonic Marines can benefit from the bunched-unit tactic with their AP3 Doom Sirens and Blastmasters. At best, Plague Marines can barbecue a bunched-up unit with double flamers. Hardly an OPed combo by any stretch of the imagination.

Lashprinces are support units. Therefore, the cheesiest they get is when used in concert with units that actually benefit from your ability to move the opponent's units. Basically Lashes turn 'good units' into 'great units'. The problem is that, since most CSM players shy away from the 'good units' in favor of the 'great units', they're really not getting the best mileage out of their Lash. But there's all kinds of creative uses for a Double-Lash army. If you ever see how my Night Lords make use of Lash, I could convince you that Raptors are broken.

DuskRaider
11-08-2009, 08:37
Yeah, I really don't see the synergy with Lash Prince and Plague Marines. PMs are without a doubt the best unit in the game for holding an objective though, so perhaps that's the deal. You can also use the Lash to move enemies AWAY from objectives, so if you have PMs sitting on that hill and an enemy charge is imminent, you could use the lash to push them back and keep them at bay, where PMs can handle them at range.

adreal
11-08-2009, 09:29
That and you have oblits/vindi's to deal with enemy units, which lash bunches up for max hits.

Dark Apostle197
11-08-2009, 10:01
Yea, the lash princes aren't there for the plague marines who are meant to hold objectives; they're there for the stuff meant to kill and keep the enemy off the objectives.