View Full Version : how do you counter riden mosters?

09-01-2006, 12:29
like the title says how do you with your army deal with riden monsters like griffons, wyverns and dragons etc...

on paper the seem pretty affective, unless they face an army with cannons like empire or dwarf.

09-01-2006, 12:37
Cannons, Bolt Throwers, even Stone Throwers. Most missile units can do a number on them too, as they are pretty easy to hit, if tough to wound. Remember, all ranks in a unit can fire at Large Targets, though this is seldom an issue as few people deploy units with ranged weapons in ranks, save for Sea Guard or Kossars.

Monsters have a tough time dealing with ranked units, since CR is stacked against them so heavily to start. The biggest problem caused by such monsters is their manuverability, which they can use to spread terror and fire-breath onto your units while they avoid your charge arcs. If you can get them to fight on your terms, they are easily dispatched in combat.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-01-2006, 12:38
Actually, it's not cannons and warmachines thats scary when you have a big monster. With a little manoeuvring you can pretty much minimise the risk from them(although shooting is more dangerous to say a Griffon than a Dragon, so it varies).

The big danger is, getting counter charged, especially by infantry. If you can bring some static CR into the fight, the monster is starting to get in trouble, as it can only claim kills. Also remember, that it can be very hard to redirect with a large monster, as it can likely see and charge virtually all units in range already.

So the best way to counter something like a dragon is to make it so that it can't charge anything it wants to. What I mean is, that you should aim to make it so that if it does charge anything, it will in the next turn end up in a position where you can counter charge it, again preferably with something with lots of static CR, but anything will do. Multiple layers of units are good for this. It can only charge if it can land, so if you force it to charge units A(or not charge at all, thats the goal really), it will either kill it or get stuck fighting there. You should make it so that if it gets stuck you have something ready to go into the flank of it, and if it overruns, well something to go into the flank.

The challenge comes from it being a flying large target, so you have to operate in 20" deep zones, and shielding things is a lot harder.

09-01-2006, 12:40
I'd do one or more of the following:

a) Shoot them with War Machines
b) Blast them with magic
c) Make sure that once they're in combat, I can flank them to high heaven.

Generally, a big monster will strike at the flank or rear of an MBU while another unit hits the front, allowing the player with the monster to break the unit much more easily. What you have to do is prevent that from happening, because if the monster gets a flank charge off, your big ranked unit won't be getting any CR.

09-01-2006, 16:15
If you play O'n'G you can hit it with a wolfrider train
(16 wolfsrideders with standard, light armour and any wepeons you fancy) quite easely,
but you better have a boss with backbone brew in there too.

Major Defense
09-01-2006, 16:53
Don't forget the ever popular tactic of using Unseen Lurker to put 3 ranks, unit strength and a standard on him. With even a weak unit he'll be struggling to cause enough wounds. With a strong hitting or well armored unit they're going to take that break test at a very painful modifier.

09-01-2006, 17:38
Simple enough, either ignore it untill I can charge it (oh, I just LOVE playing Slaanesh Chaos ^^), or, smack it with a Beastlord in a Beastherd armed with either the Hellfire Sword (every wound caused is turned into D6+1 wounds instead), or the Chaos Daemonsword and Mark of Slaanesh (same stats as a Feaster of Pain, Greater Daemon of Slaanesh).

That Beastlord makes the unit Ld 8, which should be enough, he challenge the enemy monster rider and brings down the monster within seconds (a single hit can kill a Dragon if armed with the Hellfire Sword), even IF the guy riding the Monster then decides to deal with the Beastlord, no biggie, he can't rack up enough CR to beat me and will promptly break (2 Ranks, Standard, Outnumber, at least 4 wounds from the Monster, which can easely be even more wounds)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-01-2006, 19:16
First of all, do *not* fight fire with fire. Putting in a Lord or other expensive heavy hitter is a total waste of time.

Sure, that Beastlord could well knack my Dragon in a single hit. Which is precisely why he's in for the first kicking of combat....

I use a Monster Heavy Dark Elf list. And there is one thing that screws me up more than anything. It's not artillery (you get a turn to kill me, then I return the favour with far more panache and success). It's not Characters (they cannot stand up to the Dragon, and my Lord). It's not Chariots (trundle trundle hold still damn you trundle trundle) it's your basic, bog standard, run of the mill troops, and a bit of deployment forethought.

Even a Dark Elf Highborn, riding a Black Dragon will honestly struggle to overcome a fully ranked up unit of troops, when engaging it to the front. Think about it. I start combat with 0 combat resolution. Against a full unit, you'll have 5. Thats a tall order to equal, let alone beat. And if I do equal it, well, I'm taking my running away test, thanks to your musician.

Of course, being a flying large target, I can not only see over, but charge over intervening units and (within reason) terrain. So ensuring that I can only charge your front isn't easy. So form up with three units in a D shape, and a single unit protecting their rear. These units protect each others flanks. Ensure you have decent enough Ld backup, one way or another, and you ought to do it.

Now, don't expect any of these units to kill off the Dragon, or even it's rider. However, they can pin it in place, allowing a nasty countercharge from a harder unit.

Most players also make the mistake of sending off their beasty on it's own. This is when you can strike with Cavalry as well.

09-01-2006, 20:14
Only problem is that if a player plays smart he will tie large portion of your army with that flying beast and can use the rest to destroy you.

The only thing that can easly kill a dragon lord IS missile fire - everything else is just a waist of time - good player wont fall for traps AND will only pick up targets that he can destroy in one turn...

09-01-2006, 20:50
As a Lizardmen-player I have the best weapon of all (IMO): Skinks!
Little cheap buggers with blowpipes(2xmultiple shots) which skirmish at M6. A minimum sized unit costs just 5 pts more than a Dark Pegasus and pumps out 20 shots which auto-wound on 6's(due to poison). Any dragon lurking near my backyard better be prepared to roll a lot of armour saves. Not to mention that the poor sod sitting on top of it will look like a porcupine.:p
Of course skinks die faster than just about anything, get them into combat or give'em a dose of that Noxious Breath and they crumble. But still there usually is plenty more where they came from in a LM army.;)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-01-2006, 21:03
Meh. The Skinks tend to be getting eaten by Harpies in my experience. Though I must admit I think my Harpies are on PCP. Brave and Rock? Not quite right that!

but your right. People with Large Monsters tend to be good with them. My real suggestion is suck up the losses at first, and keep an eye on what your wiley opponent is doing.

09-01-2006, 22:21
First of all, do *not* fight fire with fire. Putting in a Lord or other expensive heavy hitter is a total waste of time.

Sure, that Beastlord could well knack my Dragon in a single hit. Which is precisely why he's in for the first kicking of combat....

He is placed in a Beastherd which is roaming arround behind my lines simply in order to deal with big critters if I face them whilst still keeping out of the Dragons/Wyverns charge range.

What must also be remembered is that the Herd itself is a Skirmishing unit, so, impossible to flank/rear and thus impossible to avoid contact with the Beastlord.
They also pack a 360 degree charge arc and a charge on 10".

As for the Beastlord being expensive, he is standard in my list and actually cheaper than a Mortal unequipped Lord, normally though, he has the Chaos Daemonsword in order to munch up any unit he and his herd encounters roaming arround my flank, but, if I know I'll be up aggainst a Dragon, I simply pick the Hellfire Sword instead, and for a tourney... I actually think picking the HF sword would be the best, seeing as you can get that 1+5 Overkill aggainst Champions in a single dice roll, resulting in my unit having at least 2 Ranks, Standard and 6 in overkill, a total of 9 before the Gors start chopping away, who knows, I might even end up with Outnumber after that.

This is also the one reason till why I tell people not to bring Champions in units of Fast Cav, they can be challenged by char-killers and simply destroyed and have their unit ran down or chased away

Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-02-2006, 22:52
Even so.... regardless of where you are, I will still challenge you, and having gotten the charge off (I have LoS and range advantage, so I *will* be charging should they meet in combat) he'll be pasted in short order, and with any luck, with enough overkill to see off the rest of the unit. Not that they pose too much of a threat to a fully kitted out Druchii Highborn and his Dragon!

20-02-2006, 00:15
And that is why there are always Foe Renders in my herds, of course, when the Foe Render gets pasted, it's a matter of dice, if I stay, the next round, you will be in big trouble when my Beastlord challenges.

And I do actually play Druchii as well... and there are not all too many weapons that can make a Highborn dangerous enough when it commes to overkilling, in fact, the favourite setup with the Gauntlet of Power turns him into something very vulnerable to a challenge.

But I guess we'll never know whos tactic works the best, for I suppose we will never meet in combat, and thus, playing theoryhammer where both parts state their unit to be the best is superflous.

I just said that my tactic have worked for me this far, yours might have worked for you this far.

Good luck fellow Druchii.

20-02-2006, 12:08
With my Dark Elves, just shoot with bolt throwers and repeater crossbows. Works against most monsters, barring a dragon. The dragon is left alone mostly, my units are not worth many vp's anyway, so I can afford to lose some. Besides, chances are that I'm fielding a dragon myself when I encounter another dragon.

My undead are not really worried. Do your flank charge into my skeletons. I won't break anyway. Next turn, I can really start to put the preassure on with some other units.

20-02-2006, 13:23
I just throw a unit of Dark Riders at it, let it charge them, make them run away, then charge it with Executioners and a Chariot. Oh, and I make sure I don't have any Champions or Heros in those units.

Works so long as my Dark Riders are charged. If they aren't charged, then it's shot down by my Reapers.
With Chaos I do the same, only with Chaos Warriors, Marauders and Warhounds. Empire I just blast it for a turn, and I haven't faced one with my Dogs yet...

20-02-2006, 15:33
The biggest problem with flying monsters isn't the monster itself, but the rest of the army that it is moving to support.

Against *only* the flying moster you have a good chance keeping it at bay simply by keeping your big units facing towards it. That gets skewed when the rest the army has to be taken into account.

Dispersed missile troops or artillery are your safest bet, really. For missile troops, make sure they have the ability to move and fire at the least.

Just make sure that the moster won't be overruning into a string of warmachines and units. If it destroys one you want to make sure that it doesn't immediately get tangled up with another.

If you don't have missile troopst then make sure it doesn't land behind your army. A chariot or two lurking behind the main advance should deny him the opportunity of getting at your rear.

Finally - take a flier of your own if you can. Even Steven!


20-02-2006, 16:52
Also, big nasty monsters tend to take up a lot of points. Try to figure out how many points are devoted to the beasty and allocate enough points in your army to deal with that. If you play a shooty army then you are in luck. If you play a combat army, then you may be in trouble.

This goes for any, "super costing" points sink. Think about the huge amount of points invested in a Temple guard-slann unit, or a massive grail knights bus. These type of units/beasties can be distracted and harrassed and even killed with lesser amount of points in a set of small units acting in co-ordination.

I find that if I can engage it a big monster/rider combo, I tend to try to take down the beast first. It usually has less armor save than a hero. Even though its toughness may be greater, its weapon skill and armor is less and it is easier to kill (or at least get some CR). Once you get rid of the beast and its attacks, then the hero is just by itself. In other ocaisons it might be useful to attack the hero first, but do not attack separate parts of the combo. Kill one, then kill the other.

Mad Makz
20-02-2006, 23:19
With my skaven army the only monster that is truely worrisome is the Dragon.

Against a dragon I tend to evacuate characters from units, so that my VP's are more spread out and if the Dragon takes out a unit of clanrats and I don't lose a grey seer, hero or warlock with him (the one exception would be the Warlord if I've taken one, who you is leadership 10 so pretty safe as along as you can keep the unit from being flanked/shot up and flamed too badly.)

By having the characters seperate from units the Wizards can run 10" and still blast opposing units, while the units can flee from chargers if necessary without taking characters with them.

I imagine a similiar tactic would work for other armies, having your characters not stuck with your regiments means you lose less points at once when a big monster pounces, and additionally it means you can divert your characters to attack their lines supporting other units while the remainder of your RNF hopefully hold up the dragon. This does depend on your armies leadership however. Also, you need to position your characters on foot so that if the dragon charges them, and you flee, you will get a flank/rare charge on the dragon from one of your RNF (can be a good sacrifice.)

21-02-2006, 17:27
Just a word to Neknoh, it came across in your post that you think the hellfire sword turns every wound into D6+1 wounds. This is not the case. You cause the wounds then add d6 to the total. e.g. if your Beastlord caused three wounds that wouldn't be 3XD6+1, it would be 3+D6. Still very good for taking out mulit-wound models, but not as good as at first glance.

21-02-2006, 18:05
For every wound the Hellfire Sword does, it causes an additional D6 wounds, this is pretty clear in the wording if you ask me.

04-03-2006, 00:57
What about tactics for a skavern player playing a SAD(ish) army 4 ratlings, 10 jezzails, warplightning cannon, grey seer with 3 engineers of doom against these riders im interested in Vs dragon riders as my first (EVER) opponant (im new to this) is playing highelfs with a dragon

04-03-2006, 07:58
. . . and you wonder HOW to take out the Dragon!

Blast it with every Jezzial and Warplightning you have, that Dragon will pummel to the ground before you have the time to say "Cheesecake"

Use your ratlers to mow down the T3 infantry and cavalry (though they might work good aggainst the Dragon as well)

04-03-2006, 14:08
Wow, people are acctually asking for tactics for a Skaven SAD army....:eek: