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Giant Fossil Penguin
10-08-2009, 12:23
Dear 'Seers,
I have accidentally got the makings of a new Chaos army, due to my Golden Daemon project. If I go ahead and go for it, then I would like to use some of the lesser seen units, which brings me, neatly, onto two of the units I see that are most derided, viz Possessed and Chosen (although I'm not sure if Chosen are actually derided or if I'm projecting).
Having looked at the codex, I'm unsure of why, certainly Possessed, come in for so much hate. S5, 3+/5++. Fearless and 3A on the charge; add to this you get a funky special rule. You can also buy them a transport and Champ and Icon. They seem fair to me, so I'm wondering if the focus has become too narrow, looking at Daemonkin alone.
Chosen. Well, here you can have 5 Infiltrating/Outflanking Meltaguns/Plasmaguns, with 3A on the charge. That sounds tasty. Again, I'm sure I'm missing something; it can't be just the pt cost, surely?
I tried a searchy, but nada. If my questions have been answered then I would really appreciate a link, and then I can close the thread and not re-tread old ground.

GFP

PS I'm making a pre-Rubric, post-Heresy Thousand Sons unit, that may progress into a full army over time. Chosen and Possessed would really fit the theme. I'll probably take them anyway, but I would love some feedback.

djinn8
10-08-2009, 12:49
I think people slate Possessed because of they're a bit of a random element. You can't really include them with any specific purpose in mind, so it's down to the luck of the dice whether or not they will preform well. But saying that, I think people give them a little too much stick as none of the rolls are bad and getting power weapons is just sweet as.

The_Warsmith
10-08-2009, 13:08
possessed are competing with bezerkers for dedicated assault unit. bezerkers usualy win out because they count as scoring and are cheaper in points. possessed can get some nice special rules but they're random which puts people off.

FraustyTheSnowman
10-08-2009, 13:09
Most people think possessed are weaker than berzerkers, which is what they're most often compared to. There are actually several (score?) posts about possessed and how much/little they indeed suck. Basically, if you're looking to play games and have fun, winning some, loosing others, use them. If you're looking to get the most out of the unit you can, use 8 in a rhino with a champ, and throw a greater daemon in your army as well. If you're looking to get the most out of your army, don't use possessed.

For chosen, depending on what you want to do they can be truely scary. Forget plasma, completely. In fifth you don't need it. Melta and flamer are the only special weapons you need to care about. With chosen you can make a unit with three flamers and two melta, throw them in a rhino, and use it to kill whatever bothers you most.

Fixer
10-08-2009, 13:16
I wrote the tactica on Possessed a while back. They have their uses and have some nice benefits. Using them for greater demon summoning is a nice one.

The drawback is that they're less reliable than the tournament blunt instrument that are Khorne beserkers, Rhino or Land Raider transported respectively.

Giant Fossil Penguin
10-08-2009, 14:35
I should probably say that this army would be for, mainly, casual play. I don't play enough to consider tournaments a real option, my bad back aside. It had occurred to me that maybe the issue was hard-core tournie-ites parsing the codex down to the best bang-for-your-buck units; if you're looking for the best way to spend points then, yeah, I can see why these units mightn't be top of anyone's list.
So, they're not bad, per se? Web-based hyperbole FTW! Seeing as I started this thread, I'm going to push it a bit off-topic. What units are not normally seen in Chaos lists? I want this army to be as different as it can be from my loyalist Chapter and also something novel to play against, as well as a fun opportunity for kit-bashes and conversions. So, what do we all reckon? Possessed, Chosen, Havocs...Raptors?
I have no experience with CSM, so other's POV would be appreciated!

GFP

PS Thanks for the info, so far:)

The_Warsmith
10-08-2009, 14:37
possessed, chosen, spawn, lesser daemons, havocs arn't all that uncommon but certainly avoid obliterators if your looking for underdog units. predators are fairly rare too becuase they compete with so many things in the heavy support slot

Lord Damocles
10-08-2009, 14:40
I wrote the tactica on Possessed a while back.
And very good it was too :D

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200393&highlight=possessed

isaac
10-08-2009, 15:47
Look at Penal Legion for a better way to do possessed. 3 abilities, 1 randomly chosen BEFORE deployment. All are great and lend for a scoring outflanking light assault part of a IG force.

FraustyTheSnowman
11-08-2009, 01:07
Spawn are not normally seen, but for good reason. They really do suck that bad. Thousand suns are rare as they are really good at killing marines outside of cover, and suck in just about all other situations. Entire noise marine armies are rare beyond those who are in it for the painting/converting. Though they are damn good if you run them right, dreadnoughts are often rare as people are irationally phobic of the fire frenzy rule.

One of the scariest lists I've seen was three units of five chosen, two melta and two flamer...three units of havocs, two melta and two flamer...and the rest in plague marines with one flamer and one melta...everything in rhinos. It's what I really wanted to take to ard boys this last time, but I don't have anywhere near enough special weapons.

Schmapdi
11-08-2009, 02:05
I don't know squat about Chaos - but you seem to like these units, so you'll likely have more fun with them than without them.

Kalec
11-08-2009, 02:10
Chosen aren't derided at all. They are often unnecessary and too expensive for a tournament list, but if you aren't dead-set on 9 oblits, then you can fit in chosen. With so many special weapons they are bound to do something.

Xardian
11-08-2009, 03:05
Little seen units:

Possessed - A little weak for thier points compared to almost everything else in the codex that can do what they do. But not cripplingly so.

Lesser / Greater Daemons - Uncommon, but they pop up now and then.

Chaos Lords - With the hard-line internet motif of Prince or bust, there's fewer of these guys around.

Chaos Bikers - Generally considered a bit overpriced. But you can still make them work.

Havocs - With Oblits, Vindis, Defilers, Preds and Land Raiders competing for thier same slots, they're typically passed over. I use them exclussively with my footslogging CSM horde and they're brilliant in that setup. Less-so in a mechanised army, which is by far the preffered setup currently.

Chaos Spawns - Paying points for them stinks, but if you want to include some then a Prince / Sorcerer with Gift of Chaos will give you gleeful opportunites to field them.

Special Characters other then Kharn and Lucius - You see Typhus in a theme list sometimes, and Abbadon hits the table once in a while, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone field Arhiman, and only brief mention of Fabius Bile or Huron. Fabius seems like he'd be a fun one for a conversion-heavy casual list.

ReveredChaplainDrake
11-08-2009, 05:01
Raptors don't see a lot of field time. As someone who uses them frequently though, they do have some rather interesting traits that set them apart from their direct competitor: CSM in Rhino w/ 2 Special Weapons. Raptors can move 12" and still have 2 Special Weapons even if their squad size isn't 10. As such, 10 is a pretty weak size for the unit. Instead, go for about 8 or 12. (BTW, stick to even-sized squads. When attempting to claim cover, only 1/2 of the unit needs to be actually covered, so an even-sized unit maximizes the amount of guys you can have exposed.) A 12-strong unit will be able to move 12" and use two special weapons, unlike CSM who would have to footslog it at that unit size. The 8-strong squad will let you take 2 Special Weapons without having to spring for all 10 guys, thus giving you a more cost-efficient squad.

Finally, go with the Icon of Khorne for Raptors. I've tried all the other Icons on Raptors and they're all either too expensive or too useless. IoK is basically a glorified IoCG when you realize that those extra attacks your unit throws each assault phase lessen the LD penalty your unit takes from Combat Resolution, and this can make a greater difference than just re-rolling a hopeless Ld4 check. And then there's the more obvious benefit of a 4-swing Powerfist Champ on the charge.

I've been considering Possessed, seeing as the models are great and I'm not especially fond of how Terminators can only be transported in Land Raiders where they eat up twice the capacity. Possessed can handle any Icon well, except CG of course. Tzeentch gives them a 4+ IV save, making them even quite potent footsloggers. Nurgle makes them a nice round Str5/T5. Khorne works wonders for any unit. Slaaneesh leaves one a bit wanting, but it's not that bad when you consider the output is Str5/I5 (Furious Charge for anybody else) before any Daemonkin abilities are counted, and that's with the second-cheapest Icon. The thing with Possessed is that you have to have a Rhino. It's the optimal way to make use of Scout and Fleet, and it's the quickest way to start getting to work with the combat powers.

When it comes to Dreadnoughts, the effective way to do it without worrying about Frenzy is to take only CCW upgrades and to run them in pairs. This way they babysit each other if one goes nuts. AV12 really doesn't care about 4 combi-bolters per Dread. This also takes advantage of the fact that Dreadnoughts are quite cheap when loaded for CC.

Axis
11-08-2009, 05:56
When it comes to Dreadnoughts, the effective way to do it without worrying about Frenzy is to take only CCW upgrades and to run them in pairs. This way they babysit each other if one goes nuts. AV12 really doesn't care about 4 combi-bolters per Dread. This also takes advantage of the fact that Dreadnoughts are quite cheap when loaded for CC.

The rest of the post was very good. I must, however, disagree about the dreadnoughts. People think fire frenzy is horrible and will cost you games or whatnot so they try to avoid the rule by taking dual CCW. Personally i believe Dual CCW dreads are hurt MORE by firefrenzy than other dreads.

You can get quite cheap multi-melta or autocannons. It is a waste of a walker if you aren't giving it decent guns.

The big thing is that frenzy actually helps a lot of the time. You just have to use the dreads properly and move TOWARDS the enemy. Take my favourite dreads (i always run both) they both have extra armour, heavy flamer. One has a multi-melta, the other TWL autocannon. By turn 3 Your dreads are going to be close to the enemy, probably closer to the enemy than your own stuff. In that instance firefrenzy can be devastating.

1) Multi-melta dread:If you are near a tank its probably dead after 2 multi-melta shots. If you are near infantry then 2 heavy flamer shots and 2 multi-melta shots can cause a lot of casualties.

2) auto-cannon dread. Unless its AV13/14 then anything is going to cop some serious punishment.

Blood frenzy is simple. If it is turn 3 you will assault something, if it is turn 2 then it depends if your opponent moved things. Dreads are dangerous in combat, sometimes enemy fists will cause problems but apart from fists and thunder hammers not much else is a problem (unless they are firedragons with all their melta bombs). Oh, and MC will rape it.

So really its turn 1 where it is a problem. Blood frenzy on turn one just means no shooting so pop smoke (i am of the opinion you CAN smoke and run.. though it may induce coughing). Which leaves fire frenzy. For this it is about placing them intelligently. Don't put the multi-melta one near tanks, don't put the autocannon one near anything except a land-raider. Try to put the multi-metla one near guys in cover. If either fire frenzies you will probably lose 1-2 men, 3 if u are unlucky.

Here are some numbers (chance to kill per shot)
Multi-melta: 55.55% [2 shots]
MM (cover): 27.77% [2 shots]

Kills (to 2 dp)
0: 19.75%
1: 49.38%
2: 30.86%

If in Cover
0: 52.16%
1: 40.12%
2: 7.72%


Auto-cannon: 24.69% [4 shots]
AC (cover): 24.69% [4 shots]

Kills (to 2 dp)
0: 32.16%
1: 42.18%
2: 20.75%
3: 4.53%
4: 0.37%

Then add heavy flamer or bolter if you got one. Those numbers aren't great for the chaos player but they also are not the worst. In, fact the worst thing about firing at your own guys is that you aren't firing at the enemy where you can choose your target for maximum effect.

Giant Fossil Penguin
11-08-2009, 09:47
Wow, a new lease of life! Thanks for all of the new info.
When it comes to characters, I had already been thinking about Ahriman. Post-Heresy, Pre-Rubric would be when he is really coming into his own; the theme means I can have a few Sorcerers, but also represent the combat-veterans with Lords. I can maybe even use a counts-as Huron to represent a mutating Captain, or some such and I can see Bile being interested in the physical apects of what happens when Astartes are changed by the warp.
I was planning on having bikes for my loyalists, but maybe taking them for Chaos would be a nice point of difference, as would Rhinos as I'm working towards a Drop Pod mainly, Chapter. Per the theme I have in mind, Possessed are in, as are some sort of Spawn- maybe to make the Gift of Chaos hurt more. Tzeentch Icon'ed Troops are probably a must. Dreads I like the sound of- the Ironclad kit will allow for a good base, twin DCCW will be no probs with that kit.
Outside the theme, I am probably going to have a Noise Marine squad, I might even spring for the Sonic Weapons bitz pack just because I like the look and it gives me a chance to paint them in pre-Heresy EC colours. I also like the look of Raptors, and whilst the MoK is not really theme-y, it isn't compulsory. Havocs, I'm still not sure on. Oblits, as mutating Techmarines, or even Havoc squads being moulded together- might be a good place for a conversion. A Pred- sounds good; but would there be a better themed Heavy unit for my Pre-Rubric army?

GFP

Xardian
11-08-2009, 15:22
For a pre-rubric Arhiman you might actually look into just using a Sorcerer instead of the actual character. He wouldn't have all his mojo at that point in time.

Dreads work fine, though I preffer a Missile launcher on mine. Keeps it at a dirt-cheap 100 points a pop for the whole thing. And frag missiles usually don't do much of anything against marines or thier vehicles in the event it goes a little crazy.

For raptors I agree the MoK is generally a good buy. However, if you have a winged or disc-riding sorcerer then a squad of raptors to accompany him is nice with an IoCG. It stinks too much to fail a Ld test from shooting and see your 200-ish point HQ fly off the board :(