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hendybadger
10-08-2009, 21:16
I was just wondering what people think of the FA choices in a Tyranid force.
I havent used any yet so cant really comment.
So they are-
Raverners
Winged Warriors
Winged Rippers
Gargoyles

What would be the Pros, Cons, Best + worst ways to use them?

iluvatar18
11-08-2009, 00:07
You forgot spore mines!

But in all seriousness, I don't play tyranids so I can't help. But I've seen all four of those options used so they must all be good in one form or another.

Max Jet
11-08-2009, 01:36
Well I sometimes use Tyranids Fast attack choices (all of them) from time to time just for the fun of it, but because of their high costs and fragility they become an obvious target for most oponents who do have the possibility to counter these models with cheaper choices from their own army.

You can debate wether Gargoyles are worth 12 points, but comparing them to the hormagaounts they certainly are! A highly mobile choice, that can catch most of the oponents the rest of the army can not. Of course the unit mostly consists of few models and they can be easily shot down even with the most basic guns. Because of the Bio Plasma the can perform well against escaping tanks, or high initiative oponents. Gargoyles are a superb counter against Harlequins, but as most of the other gaunts perform badly against high save oponents, even more because of their low numbers. Their gun is pretty much useless as you will rarely have the opportunity to use it before attacking. All in all their mobility and initiative strength 4 attacks are the greatest bonus, one of the better fast attack choices

Spore Mines.. pretty much useless. They will never land where you want them to, they eat up a slot and they will never get their points back, plus they give your oponent kill points for free.
Still take them because of ... well... they are somehow fun... I guess.

Raveners. Well don't take the gun as it makes them too expensive. They are described as a glass cannon by veteran Tyranid players, because of their possibility to damage an armoured unit. Initiative 5 with 5 attacks on the charge and rending are fairly usefull, though the model itself cannot endure much fire and costs very much compared to other Tyranid choices. Skilled oponents will kill them (deepstrike is pretty much useless on them) on sight but if you manage to slip them through, they can wreak havoc on an enemy unit. It might be good to keep their unit size as small as possible. Once there were Tyranid players taking only one of them in a unit as players tend to ignore single model units, thus the surprise attack of the Ravener caused enough damage to foil plans.. nowadays everyone knows this trick and will shoot the Ravener with a spare weapon.

Winged Rippers. Too expensive.. not much sense.. they get faster, but I would rather take two ripper swarms than one winged. The mobility is not needed that much on them, they are there to catch enemy fire. Mobility is needed more on the other units.

Winged Warriors. Now be extremely carefull with those. They can perform very well but most of the time a skilled player will take them out as a 2 wound 5+ save model can killed fast. especially one that costs about 40 to 50 points. The deep strike ability however can help you to attack the rear of a tank with flesh borers or +1S Spinefists, though you could loose the whole very expensive unit on this stunt.
In edition four they were used to provide synapse because of their mobility (as long as there was enough cover for them) In edition 5 with running you will not need these guys any more. You can equip them with CC biomorphes, weapons and rending, throwing them at enemy units quickly. If they make it your oponents plan will be seriously disturbed, most of the time however they get shot before.

Kalec
11-08-2009, 02:15
Tyranid FA units took a big hit in 5th where they are no longer scoring. Winged warriors have always been horribly overpriced, but at least before they could swoop in to grab an objective that the other, more durable units couldn't take or couldn't reach. Now they can just contest, while scuttling genestealers can do better.

Bolter Bait
11-08-2009, 03:12
The secret to Tyranid FA choices are that you have no FA choices. Raveners die too easily in small numbers and are just as expensive as a leaping CC warrior while providing no Synapse, so that prohibits taking them in large groups. With TLOS, they'll be lucky to have cover the turn they arrive and sit there like ducks in a gallery for a turn, so unless you've tied up all the enemy's shooting already, they'll likely not live long. If you're lucky and the opponent is blind, you can DS into position to assault a vehicle next turn and between being Str 4 hitting rear AV and having 4 rending attacks each, you can bank on destroying that vehicle. I still don't like them.

Gargoyles are expensive in every way you can imagine, have horrendous models, are a pain to put together and time consuming to scratch-build. (Although strapping a reversed devourer to the backs of hormagaunts with fleshborers do make quick and easy rocketgaunts). However, for 2 points more than a Hormy, you get a Termagant that can fly 12" a turn, shoot/fleet, and then assault with as many attacks as a Hormagaunt thanks to bioplasma.

So instead of thinking of Gargoyles as flying Termagants, think of them as flying Hormagaunts with an extra attack and two of their attacks are at Str 4 to boot (fleshborer shot + base attack + charging attack + bioplasma). Ld 10 means they might actually be useful if you find them out of Synapse range but since they cannot score, I would never take more than one brood of them.

Flying Warriors. Point sink. They're garbage. Insanely expensive bolter bait. They CAN hit hard in CC in theory, but they never work out for me. Supposedly they can function as a decent mobile range unit, but that's expensive to field too. Pass.

Spore Mines. These give the enemy KPs when they do their job, which is to explode and die. Until 5th codex comes out when Living Artillery is hopefully changed to say that they cannot contest objectives and do not award KPs, these guys just make it harder for you to win if they do what they're supposed to. Pass.

Oh, and Winged Rippers. Just don't. Get a brood of Gargs for roughly the same price.

hendybadger
11-08-2009, 09:30
It looks like a Tyraid force could do just as well by not using any FA at all!

Valtiel
11-08-2009, 10:51
It looks like a Tyraid force could do just as well by not using any FA at all!

I don't use a single Fast Attack option sadly, and I do fine. So it's not like they are that necesarry, I'd just love for the options to be better.

hendybadger
11-08-2009, 10:54
I dont have any at the mo. And most of my games are very close.

genestealer_baldric
11-08-2009, 11:47
yep there is not 1 good tyranid FA choice around :(
they are all hideousliy overcosted or to fragile to be worth any space in my list except as a joke

hendybadger
11-08-2009, 11:57
But some of them look so good!

Angelwing
11-08-2009, 12:05
Rule of cool is about the only reason to use them at the moment.
I could argue a few uses for each choice, but to be honest those uses would be very situational, could be performed by another unit for less or have had their use borked by the 5th ed rules to a fringe benefit thats not worth the points investment.

Askari
11-08-2009, 15:26
Raveners are ok, in single units.

Deep Strike up near a Devastator squad, Dark Reapers, whatever, and it's too weak to waste precious firepower on, and too powerful to allow to just sit there and fire Devourers all the time/assault your expensive heavy weapons. They're quite cheap to boot.

stroller
11-08-2009, 15:49
I use raveners - and would use winged rippers - because - I like the models.

I have found raveners useful on occasion, but often I wont use any fast attack options. I still seem to get where I need my brood to be...

hendybadger
11-08-2009, 16:08
Warriors dont seem to be appearing very high on this list at all

Black Antelope
11-08-2009, 16:39
Overall FA Strengths - Fast (duh), and many can be powerful when they charge
Overall FA weaknesses - Not scoring (but this is game wide), low saves (same as all non-TMCs), Glass Cannon syndrome in CC, Model cost

Ravener - as has been said, its a warrior with leaping, fleet and 2xSC. It can also use a gun, and can DS. BUT - it does not provide synapse and is highly expensive.
Powerful on the charge, but it will die quickly to return attacks so cannot be expected to perform vs MEQs
Best uses:
*Lone Ravs, DS in front on enemy behind the lines units, and force them to waste shooting or get tied up [con- expensive for its roll, sucks in KP missions]
*Groups of 3+, with death spitters. Run on the flanks as a harassment unit. [con- will die horribly if caught out of cover]

Gargoyles - Simply: There is only 1 thing that prevents Gargoyles from being the best FA by a long shot (can you guess?). For those extra 2p they are vastly superior to Hormagaunts. However, they do not compare as well to the outflanking 'stealer.
*Large units (20+), performing the same alpha strike function as Horms
*Smaller units (10-16) deepstriking, shoot something important, take a round of fire, shoot again, assault.

Winged Warriors - Fast synapse providers, but still need to be kept behind the gaunts for a 4+ save. The real problem is with armaments. CC warriors will never match up to enemy CC troops, so will struggle vs daemon/orks/csm etc. Ranged weapons leaves them more vulnerable to a counter charge.
Overall, fast synapse is better performed by flyrants or running 'thropes.

Winged Rippers - fast cover saves. Pre 5th ed, they made sense. Now? just run with normal rippers. Far too expensive for what they do. (now, if they could infiltrate/scout or had WoN...). One possible tactic is to take 3-5 and DS them (but avoid templates/S6 like the plague) as a distraction unit. However, if I had the FW models I think id always find a use for them (soo pretty)

Spore Mines - If they were cheaper, and more than 3 per slot, they might be an interesting choice. The role they fill (anti-inf) is better filled by stranglefexs or DS-warriors

Hope this helps you
Blacky

hendybadger
11-08-2009, 16:50
The one problem i have about screening the FA units with Gaunts is that I dont run any Gaunts. Just Stealers

HsojVvad
11-08-2009, 17:59
[ (Although strapping a reversed devourer to the backs of hormagaunts with fleshborers do make quick and easy rocketgaunts).

Hey that is what I do. They actually come out quite nice. I see I am not the only one to think of this. I think they look much nicer that Gargolye models themselves, and if need be, when not using Gargolyes, they can just be regulare Gaunts then.

Max Jet
11-08-2009, 21:33
Raveners are ok, in single units.

Deep Strike up near a Devastator squad, Dark Reapers, whatever, and it's too weak to waste precious firepower on, and too powerful to allow to just sit there and fire Devourers all the time/assault your expensive heavy weapons. They're quite cheap to boot.

I know I have written this in my post. Nowadays no one falls for this anymore. Its 50 points... practically for free, I guess the one single Ravener trick was used too often.

Putty
12-08-2009, 02:10
Gargoyles by far are the best FA choice for Tyranids.

Pity the models are crap and too expensive for anybody to take seriously.

And since you can fill the 3 spaces (and points) left void with Elite Carnifexes... why not?

Lord Humongous
12-08-2009, 02:14
Best fast attack is carnifexes with the "running claws" upgrade. Monstrous creature that moves as a beast? Yes please!

(Joke- there is no such upgrade, Would be pretty cool though....)

catbarf
12-08-2009, 02:40
Gargoyles have incredible speed, allowing them to fail miserably at any area of the board at a moment's notice. They're fast, and they can contest table quarters, but they die to lasgun fire and aren't very well armed.

Raveners and Winged Warriors suffer from the Lictor Syndrome, where you can appear and do stuff for exactly one turn before Instant Death or even bolter fire turns them to kibbles n' bits.

Spore mines are a waste of points. I'd rather take Biovores and get them for 'free'.

And Winged Rippers... Well, they can be a flying tarpit, but that's it. Points best spent elsewhere.

Fast Attack's probably one of the major weaknesses of Nids.

hendybadger
12-08-2009, 10:54
They have so many down points, Why do they look so good?

Angelwing
12-08-2009, 12:02
They have so many down points, Why do they look so good?

Because your eyes are drawn to such words as 'wings, deepstrike, beasts' and you think they they would be very useful in an army that likes to close the gap quickly, which they are. Unfortunately it's some of the stuff that comes with it 'points, , KP's' that spoil them.

hendybadger
12-08-2009, 12:05
I ment visualy look so good

Angelwing
12-08-2009, 12:32
I ment visualy look so good

Ah yes. No argument there. :D

hendybadger
12-08-2009, 12:36
As was said elsewhere. The 'Rule of Cool' sometimes outweighs the rules themselves

ReveredChaplainDrake
12-08-2009, 17:27
I've seen and heard of some people using Gargoyles and customize the flying bases. They all wind up at varying levels of height. From here, use them to screen Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes with their big, awkward wings.

That's about the best use of Tyranid Fast Attack in 5th.