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Zelnik
11-08-2009, 07:33
There are signs that the Tau are being worked on, though it's not likely we will see them re-done for another year or two. These rumors are the ones i am hearing from my local battle bunker (chicago)

A special issue power weapon, with the standard restrictions of special issue weapons (only one, on a shas'vre or better)

Some (if not all) special issue weapons and equipment becoming standard equipment

Cyclic Ion Blaster will count as rending, not ap1 on a six.

Ethereal will be less useless

Forgeworld command suits will be available in some way (special character or not)

Large numbers of special characters to follow theme with the recent codexes (a high chance of seeing Angkor Prok and Shas'O R'myr)

Shadowsun will either not be in the new codex, or will have a new mini and new rules. (This is the strongest rumor, because the model is no longer sold on shelves, and every manager and redshirt i have met says she was supposed to be a special release for Cities of Death.)

New XV series suits

Gue'Vesa a troops choice

(Take this one with a huge grain of salt) Tallarian dog soldiers as elites.

Thats all i got, anyone else have something?

Gen.Steiner
11-08-2009, 07:37
Interesting if true, especially the Tallarian Dog Soldiers - the more xenos, the better.

Not too keen on the idea of Tau coming out before Codex: Inquisition and Codex: Dark Eldar, but hey ho!

Crazy Ivan
11-08-2009, 07:46
Sounds very interesting indeed! Would love to see Gue'vesa and Tarellians - especially if this picture (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tarellian) is anything to go by.

Gen.Steiner
11-08-2009, 07:56
Ooh, yes, definitely. They'd go nicely alongside my Third Sphere Expansion force (mostly auxiliaries)!

Taipan
11-08-2009, 08:06
There are signs that the Tau are being worked on, though it's not likely we will see them re-done for another year or two. These rumors are the ones i am hearing from my local battle bunker (chicago)

I highly doubt it. Their codex is one of the few 4th edition ones that actually improved in 5th edition (everyone else has had an update or needs one). They're perfectly fine, there are at least 3 armies begging for a new codex ahead of them.


A special issue power weapon, with the standard restrictions of special issue weapons (only one, on a shas'vre or better)

Clearly untrue, as no Tau unit is equipped for close-combat. The Fire Caste has always stressed the need to engage the foe at range; close-combat is a traditional weakness of the army, and they know it.

In any case, we already have Farsight for those players who want close-combat Tau. And TBH, not even he is particularly good (and he's meant to be influenced by the Blood God).


Some (if not all) special issue weapons and equipment becoming standard equipment

My dearest wish as a Tau player, but that's exactly what it is. Yet another indication this is wishlisting.


Cyclic Ion Blaster will count as rending, not ap1 on a six.

Again, wishlisting. This is simply a clarification of the rules for the weapon, that everyone wishes had been done in the first place.


Ethereal will be less useless

They'll only manage that when they take it out of the army list. They shouldn't have been added to the army list in the first place, it's like sticking a Munitorum bureaucrat in the IG codex.


Forgeworld command suits will be available in some way (special character or not)

Wishlist...


Large numbers of special characters to follow theme with the recent codexes (a high chance of seeing Angkor Prok and Shas'O R'myr)

...this one has slightly more credibility (given that the 'special character unlocks X for your army' trend is prevelant), but I'd still say wishlist.


Shadowsun will either not be in the new codex, or will have a new mini and new rules. (This is the strongest rumor, because the model is no longer sold on shelves, and every manager and redshirt i have met says she was supposed to be a special release for Cities of Death.)

So? Plenty of characters either don't have a model, or are no longer on the shelf/direct order only/eBay only.
Mind you, I would be a little disappointed if Shadowsun is gone. Out of all of the useless SC's the Tau have, she's the least disappointing. She blows up Landraiders etc, and her Leadership aura is handy (unlike Ethereal, no drawback if she dies).


New XV series suits

Doubt it. They might re-sculpt the XV8 (who are quite blocky), but the XV8, XV25 and XV88 fufill all the battlefield needs of the Tau Empire. Again, wishlist.


Gue'Vesa a troops choice

(Take this one with a huge grain of salt) Tallarian dog soldiers as elites.

Very unlikely. Kroot already do the 'cheap infantry spam' job better than either, and Fire Warriors outclass both in the 'shoot things till they drop' area.


So, in summary, I highly doubt the Tau will recieve a new codex anytime soon. They are competitive in 5th edition (in some areas they actually improved, very few drawbacks nowadays), their model range is about as filled-out as you can hope for with a xenos race (ie in terms of plastic), and they're a fairly popular army.

Out of all the races in 40k, Tau are pretty much last for an update for 5th edition (I'd go far as saying they might not get a new codex till 6th edition). DE, Necrons, WH/DH....thats probably the update progression going into 5th edition/early 6th.

Lowmans
11-08-2009, 08:16
We can only hope and pray that this isn't true, if it is true then GW have completely lost what is left of their sense....

If it is true then we can probably consign DE to the same waste bin as Squats, if they're prepared to do Tau again before DE then abandon all hope. Fortunately, I haven't heard anything in support of this rumour but it's just ridiculous enough to be true.

MajorWesJanson
11-08-2009, 08:52
Tau are one of the easier races to do an update for. And it does fit somewhat since Tau have a decent number of hybrid models that GW wants to get rid of, so may as well do a quick update on them. Make a new suit kit with more options, switch the commander [with farsight options]and broadside over to full plastic, add one more plastic kit (new race? decent vespids? fire warrior/pathfinder plastic multi kit?) and some new characters in metal, update a few point values, add rules for SCs, fix the vespids, and bam, easy new release. Something they could add as a third release, maybe ending up with quick tau, longer tyranids, DE, BA, nerons.

Romanus
11-08-2009, 09:30
@ Taipan: For the very reasons that you mentioned (except the wish listing parts) make this rumor seem more plausible. Because the Tau are competitive and need little work they make and ideal candidate as a filler codex. By this I mean it allows GW to releaqse a codex that requires little work while being able to focus on Dex's such as Inquisition and DE that need alot of work.

@ Lowmans: As I pointed out to Taipan, this makes perfect sense to release Tau. It gives GW breathing room to give DE and Necrons the justice they deserve. I know its been a long wait for these two dex's, but I'd prefer a couple of delays compared to a rushed and broken codex with only half the models available at release.

[B]@ MajorWesJanson[B]: Completely agree mate. It was the same back in fourth ed, Tau needed very little work and let GW maintain the release schedule while buying them a little time to work on the following dex's that needed more work.

Hope what I said made sense. While it's disappointing that DE aren't out yet, if they start doing the easier dex's now, it only gives GW more time to do them properly.

Patience my Padawans, Patience. Revealed, all will be.

Cheers,
Rom

Nicha11
11-08-2009, 09:37
No offense Zelnik.

But these rumours look like complete and utter BS.

First off. New Tau? The concept is unlikely, they have quite a recent codex which functions fine.

Secondly, special issue power weps? Don't think that makes any sense to anyone.

And thirdly: You do not get reliable or even coherent rumours from a battle bunker.
At best they're trying to make 40k look interesting, at worst they're just lieing to please themselves.

MajorWesJanson
11-08-2009, 09:52
One of the major points for a Tau release is the phase-out of hybrid models. Maybe just a model release, perhaps in the Apoc frame of 2010 will see some of the hybrids gone, like the Broadside, Tau Commander and Necron heavy destroyers.

Tau are easy enough to do that they could rig up some new characters, maybe a new unit or two, import some things from FW like the barracuda and tetra, and then it is done, and the money comes in while DE models are completed and Necron and Inquisition rules and units are hashed out.

Ganymene
11-08-2009, 09:55
I would be more inclined to believe any rumors if GW wasn't on total rumor lockdown.

Most of this seems like wishlisting, but I could see some of it coming true. Only because that is the way the newer Codices are being written.


EDIT: It is good to hear some new rumors, it doesn't matter if they turn out to be true or not.

Scelerat
11-08-2009, 10:50
While it's disappointing that DE aren't out yet, if they start doing the easier dex's now, it only gives GW more time to do them properly.

Patience my Padawans, Patience. Revealed, all will be.

Cheers,
Rom

I am not a DE player myself, but at this point asking the DE players to have patience is like asking Amy Winehouse to do more drugs. They can't! They already have patience! More patience than anyone on the 40k hobby. Not to mention this DE codex will have to be just absolutely stunning to justify 10 years of "yeah, we're working on that".
If you say that in public and in hearing range of any DE player, chances are you will get your jugular bitten off :P

MajorWesJanson
11-08-2009, 11:06
I am not a DE player myself, but at this point asking the DE players to have patience is like asking Amy Winehouse to do more drugs. They can't! They already have patience! More patience than anyone on the 40k hobby. Not to mention this DE codex will have to be just absolutely stunning to justify 10 years of "yeah, we're working on that".
If you say that in public and in hearing range of any DE player, chances are you will get your jugular bitten off :P

They have done awesome update codexes before. Look at Orks.

daboarder
11-08-2009, 11:26
quite frankly im pissed off that DE keep getting nocked back ive been waiting ages to start an army and while i can understand doing a good job and releasing easy codex's in the mean time it doesnt take OVER 3 YEARS or more to do a good job.

Charax
11-08-2009, 11:30
The Shadowsun part seems to be plausible if her suit is an option for HQ commanders, allowing people to keep using a rather cool model (it also somewhat mimics the Dawn of War expansions)

The rest looks somewhat wishlisty, I'm especially dubious about the special issue gear becoming standard.

if they do get redone (and it's not unheard of for armies to get a quick turnover of codices), I doubt we'll see anything on them before late 2010/early 2011

aka_mythos
11-08-2009, 11:33
I don't know if its true but its atleast consistent with the sort of things GW has been doing. It will certainly be cool to see some of the forgeworld command suits in plastic.

Rumor threads are not the place to complain that another codex is being worked on. The rumor said its a year or two out from now. That means all thats going down is the conceptual phase that occurs at the start of a armies revision. Dark Eldar are further along thant this.

Carkey
11-08-2009, 11:34
I suggest that we clarify the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread is for the Original Poster to share with us the information that he has received. Surprisingly, this is not yet another place to list all the angers that Dark Eldar players have. We all know that you, as a community, do not receive much love from GW. Deal with it.

On another note, a quick update Codex could be good for the Tau. Maybe a drop in points for the fish, a revamp of the Vespid and the ‘Dex is ready for release. It is certainly possible that GW will do a filler/ update 'dex untill those other Codicies come out. I watch and wait.

the_picto
11-08-2009, 12:37
For all the people complaining about the tau not needing an update yet, the OP said a year or two. Suggesting several codeci first. If they are two years away, GW have time to put out 3-5 40K codeci before them.

Zelnik essentially said two things.

1. GW are working on a new Tau codex. To be fair, they probably are. Even if it's just the initial throwing ideas around stage.

2. Various changes to units and rules. All of which are possible, but some are more likely than others.

Hokiecow
11-08-2009, 13:15
We're already seen new tau and nids models pop up at the GamesDay this year. Right now, the nids have more rumors flying around so they will likely be out in 2010 and Tau in 2011.

Scelerat
11-08-2009, 13:18
I suggest that we clarify the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread is for the Original Poster to share with us the information that he has received. Surprisingly, this is not yet another place to list all the angers that Dark Eldar players have. We all know that you, as a community, do not receive much love from GW. Deal with it.

I suggest that we clarify the purpose of internet forums. The purpose of internet forums is for a community to share opinions. Surprisingly, when talking about next codices (note the plural),the question of how are they placed in time, before which other codex and for what reason, inevitably arises. Especially when having a codex that epitomizes the "needed codex" concept. We all know now that you, as an individual, do not know very well how discussion and argument work. We'll have to deal with it, and with your completely uncalled for arrogance and disrespect.

And, back on topic: I honestly don't know if an update is needed for Tau, but they, as some other posters have said, seem to be getting rid of hybrid kits (which I'm thankful for). Maybe Tau will be the 40k Lizardman: a race that needs little updating, bar small corrections/changes, and allows them to work with another race quite quickly. I for one would like to see Tau get some plastic love. That would be some hope for us filthy CWE xenos that our armies will get the same treatment.

Lyinar
11-08-2009, 13:26
How exactly are Tau "still competitive" when most of the tactics I've seen being discussed for them boil down to "Take a Mech list, sit on the objectives, and don't get out of your transports, ever"?

Sure, I could tweak my old 4th Edition army a bit and make it fun to play in 5th and could probably pull off a fair number of wins, but all the mathhammering cheeselisters out there seem to think the Tau are almost as broken as Necrons in the new edition.

And I could see GW already working on the Tau Codex. As stated before, they tend to start on things over a year before release and work on other stuff at the same time. A late 2010 to mid 2011 release would mean they might actually release the Dark Eldar beforehand.

silverstu
11-08-2009, 13:35
Good to have some new rumours popping up- emphasize the point of it being 1-2 years out - likely to appear after DE and probably necrons in 2011 by the sounds of it.

Hokiecow
11-08-2009, 13:37
I believe the consensus is Tau is not nearly as effective army in 5th ed. I don't think Tau is tremendously broken but they are not nearly as effective as they were in 4th and a lot of player, including myself, have put them on the shelf until they get an update.

I’m also a DE player, I actually play them more then Tau as of lately. I would like to see DE 1st so they can do Tau right instead of a quick fix. More fluff and some slick new models.

Deadnight
11-08-2009, 13:43
I highly doubt it. Their codex is one of the few 4th edition ones that actually improved in 5th edition (everyone else has had an update or needs one). They're perfectly fine, there are at least 3 armies begging for a new codex ahead of them.
.

you'll have to explain that one mate. Most observations and indications show quite the contrary, in that tau have suffered hugely thanks to 5th edition.

a handful of things got an improvement, whilst a whole slew got a royal kick in the nads, and with the likes of kroot, they get some new tricks to play with, but suffer some new handicaps as well.



Clearly untrue, as no Tau unit is equipped for close-combat. The Fire Caste has always stressed the need to engage the foe at range; close-combat is a traditional weakness of the army, and they know it.


unless its a farsight enclave thing, i would not put much stock in it. and even if it is farsight, it feels wrong.


I

In any case, we already have Farsight for those players who want close-combat Tau. And TBH, not even he is particularly good (and he's meant to be influenced by the Blood God).
.

or necrons... but yeah you're right here. cc tau, even "specialist cc" tau do kinda suck.



My dearest wish as a Tau player, but that's exactly what it is. Yet another indication this is wishlisting.
.

most SC equipment is crap to begin with, so id have little faith in this being any good to begin with.



Again, wishlisting. This is simply a clarification of the rules for the weapon, that everyone wishes had been done in the first place.
.

and if you ask me, its more proof that GW not only does not get tau, but has no love for them either. giving a race with base str5 guns an str3 thing is laughable.



They'll only manage that when they take it out of the army list. They shouldn't have been added to the army list in the first place, it's like sticking a Munitorum bureaucrat in the IG codex.


i dunno. etherials have a place i think. but their effects should be so much more than just twin linked morale, especially as when they die, half the army runs off...




Wishlist...



id like some of the FW models (specifically the xv81) to come out, mainly for the cooler arm/weapon mounts and shoulder pads. personally id rather see the FW suits being made into the regular suits.



...this one has slightly more credibility (given that the 'special character unlocks X for your army' trend is prevelant), but I'd still say wishlist.

.

i'd say when GW does a new codex for tau, they will get more SCs. its the way of the game. i just hope we get decent ones, and GW sadly has a very poor record of giving tau decent SCs.



So? Plenty of characters either don't have a model, or are no longer on the shelf/direct order only/eBay only.
Mind you, I would be a little disappointed if Shadowsun is gone. Out of all of the useless SC's the Tau have, she's the least disappointing. She blows up Landraiders etc, and her Leadership aura is handy (unlike Ethereal, no drawback if she dies).


most tau players regard her to be extremely retarded to be honest (she can only stay alive at range, but all her weapons are short ranged, and her only useful ability is the command drone which can be blown up. i dont see eldrad being shot, and losing his fortune ability, do you? then there is the overblown mary sue-d fluff. you know, destroying a hive fleet without losing a ship? retarded...) i wont be crying a river if she gets removed.
no one really takes her anyway.



Doubt it. They might re-sculpt the XV8 (who are quite blocky), but the XV8, XV25 and XV88 fufill all the battlefield needs of the Tau Empire. Again, wishlist.
.

yup, pretty much. id rather see the current crop of suits fixed up (more dakka for crisis suits, cheaper and more useful stealths) in the first place, before GW messes it all up again with a new crop of dodgy units that wont add anything. but again, they have a bad record here. sniper drones? vespids? useless, each and every one. even if we get new suits, i'll be terrified of what they give us...



Very unlikely. Kroot already do the 'cheap infantry spam' job better than either, and Fire Warriors outclass both in the 'shoot things till they drop' area.


yeah, probably. there is no niche for human aux's. they have worse shooty stuff than fire warriors, and less choppy stuff than the kroot. and crisis suits do our big guns.




So, in summary, I highly doubt the Tau will recieve a new codex anytime soon. They are competitive in 5th edition (in some areas they actually improved, very few drawbacks nowadays), their model range is about as filled-out as you can hope for with a xenos race (ie in terms of plastic), and they're a fairly popular army.
.

they wont get a new codex soon, but you are wrong when you say they are competitive, have improved and have few drawbacks.and the tournament results prove it. tau are very lacking these days. 5th, more so than 4th, is more about countering my disadvantages and limitations than anything else, but this is the wrong thread for it.



Out of all the races in 40k, Tau are pretty much last for an update for 5th edition (I'd go far as saying they might not get a new codex till 6th edition). DE, Necrons, WH/DH....thats probably the update progression going into 5th edition/early 6th.

no trust me, the tau will need a new codex before 5th is out. And i dont want another "update". christ, we already got one of those and it was a miserable shambles of a thing.

DE, Necrons, then tau, probably. i see no point in "-hunter" armies. SoBs are awesome. unless marines and chaos get a new codex.:rolleyes:

Killgore
11-08-2009, 13:51
These rumours seem possible,

GW has seen that people react positively to new races being incorporated into the Tau Codex’s so I fully expect a new race to be included, same goes for Human soldiers, and the rules for these have been around since 3rd edition.

The Ethereal will of course be fully reworked for the new codex; if it works like the special characters in the new codex's work by unlocking abilities/ unit selection then we can look forward to some pretty nifty army upgrades thanks to the inclusion of an Ethereal.

The official line from the Tau is that they dislike Close Combat, but numerous stories and articles feature rather 'extreme/ radical' Tau that don’t mind getting messy up close and personal, especially commanders that come from the more aggressive Tau septs, So I expect some type of 'Farsight' style CC weapon for a command suit.

FW Tau suits and plastic Broadsides? Why not? They could probably include all the variant bits and the Broadside weapons on the same sprue.

I fully expect the New Tau empires to be a 'filler' codex in the next few years... compared to armies such as Dark Eldar the Tau are relatively simple to rework as the majority of models still look great and many of the basic army mechanics still work (though a lil expensive by today’s codex’s).

gitburna
11-08-2009, 13:55
Take this any way you like, but apart from the lack of new vehicles and the specific naming of tarrelian dog soldiers as auxiliaries (rather than just "there will be new auxiliary units") that list is almost exactly what i'd have come up with if someone was to say to me, "what do you think will be in the next tau codex"

Born Again
11-08-2009, 14:34
If they were going to introduce a new race, Tarellians would not be getting my vote. Obviously there's a want for the Demiurg, if not what about those centaurian (dare I say Zoat?) concepts we saw a while back? Also, Gue'vesa bore me outside of the background. We don't need more humans in 40k, especially in an alien army.

Wolf Scout Ewan
11-08-2009, 14:45
...the more xenos, the better.

QFT old chap!

We need a new xenos race!

Hokiecow
11-08-2009, 14:56
Demiurg would be good but might GW keep them for their own codex to make up for the Squat snaffu?

BigBadBull
11-08-2009, 16:33
Ok I would not say that the rumor that Tau being worked on is true, GW has stated this summer All non 5th ed dexes Tau are being worked on.

We have even had some of the reliable sources drop some hints about it ( Names with-held to protect the innocent from the GW Inq, but they have been reliable sources to the forum.)

Another clue is that GW put out some Artist test models or Proof of concept models about 1 year ago at either the open house or the gd England 08. They were "not for production" but yet some of the IG and Marine stuff has been produced.

Same of the memorable ones were a New Tau XV Crisis "type/style" suit and new Pathfinders. Also a new sculpt Nid Broodlord not doing the Hulk Hogan pose.

Would it be hard to believe that GW is rushing the dexes that can be Updated vs Completely redone and have to have a large number of new models or non metal re-sculps? Less resources are required and other than the Imp forces Eldar Tau and Nid are the big sellers.

DE have been direct Only for a while but are being totally overhauled, Cron are getting reworded and we have had some hints from Jervis him self as to the direction, and there have been Leaks in GW's own promotions and dexes about the Nids ( Plastic Trygon and new Broodlord).

I just would not put the time frame as "soon" for tau but say with in the next 2 years. Of course we could be surprised.

Rumors previously:
Farsight integrated back in to Tau...Better at HtH but not great.
Fire warriors get a bit of bump in shooting
Centaur like Alien allies
Kroot bump.

Take with liberal NaCl....

Crazy Ivan
11-08-2009, 16:40
Well said, BigBadBull. I also seem to remember a Kroot shaper and a Battlesuit pilot; both looked rather nice. I for one would like seeing those released.


there have been Leeks in GW's own promotions and dexes
Leeks? GW must want its costumers to live healthy... :p

Triszin The Wrath God
11-08-2009, 16:40
tau power weapons.....


that alone made me lol at this thread

Evil-Termite
11-08-2009, 16:43
How exactly are Tau "still competitive" when most of the tactics I've seen being discussed for them boil down to "Take a Mech list, sit on the objectives, and don't get out of your transports, ever"? This is actually kind of what it feels like now... I wish there were more list builds that could hold their own. Hopefully a bunch of new SCs will provide for a nice variety in list builds that work well. So it was nice to see the rumor about more SCs.

It's great to see some rumors flying around about a new Tau dex. Even if they aren't true, it's still a lot more fun to read through a rumors thread for an army I play.

shaso_iceborn
11-08-2009, 16:49
Actually The tau power weapon is something I heard myself. Exclusive to if you take an enclaves force. (you have to take a enclaves force to get one)

But rumors I have heard say

Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Tau
Inquisition

In approximately that order
and with every Tau release they will get new allies, that was said from the beginning
My understanding is that their are 4 races (units) being considered

Demiurg Blood Brothers
Kroot Beast Hunters
Torellian Shock mercenaries
Human Auxiliaries

other stuff I have heard ranges from possible to totally outlandish I can post everything I have heard but take all wit salt as only a few are confirmed but it's your guess as to which ones.

Killgore
11-08-2009, 16:54
go on iceborn, tell us all!

it is a rumour forum, ignore the people who shoot you down about it.

Inquisitor Engel
11-08-2009, 16:59
I know from working on the previous Tau Codex that the Gue'vesa'la are not really.... desired as a standard Codex choice, so that would certainly surprise me.

BigBadBull
11-08-2009, 17:04
Actually The tau power weapon is something I heard myself. Exclusive to if you take an enclaves force. (you have to take a enclaves force to get one)

But rumors I have heard say

Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Tau
Inquisition

In approximately that order
and with every Tau release they will get new allies, that was said from the beginning
My understanding is that their are 4 races (units) being considered



I've heard close to the same but swap Cron for DE and bump DE to 2011, having "difficulty" with the amount of re sculpting and the amount of time it is taking.

Kellindel
11-08-2009, 17:09
Poor poor people ..

You fail to see what GW is doing here. The Tau WILL come out before the DE. And the Tau will get a new "Slave race". The new race will be the Dark Eldar ...

HEHEHE

massey
11-08-2009, 17:14
Well, this is interesting. We started to hear Necron and Tyranid rumors a little over a year ago, and only now are we getting stronger confirmation that they're in the pipeline. Both will probably be released within a year or so. So the regular GW timeline from when we first start hearing whispers seems to be about two years or so. Gav has mentioned before that it takes about that long from when they first start thinking about a race to when they get released.

I suspect that the normal way rumors like this get started (as opposed to rumors where somebody just makes something up) is that guys in GWHQ kick around ideas, and somebody has a friend who knows somebody, and the ideas they kick around get out. What we've seen here is far, far from things like the demon codex pdf that was floating around with special rules and statlines. These look like a first draft of ideas that will change and evolve over time.

I could see redoing the current suits. The FW ones look much better, and there are durability issues with the current ones. Besides, if you produce better looking models, all those Tau players will feel compelled to replace all their suits. :) Adding new races is pretty much a given. Which one will depend on how the models look and if they can fill a unique niche in the army.

This doesn't look bogus to me, but it looks so early that it's primary benefit is simply a confirmation that GW has started the thought process on them.

Hokiecow
11-08-2009, 17:15
Actually The tau power weapon is something I heard myself. Exclusive to if you take an enclaves force. (you have to take a enclaves force to get one).

Makes sense, maybe PWs for Farsights body guards.




But rumors I have heard say

Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Tau
Inquisition


Although it would make up for 3 Imperial codex in a row (counting BA); it's too many Xeno races in a row, i just can't see it.



Demiurg Blood Brothers
Kroot Beast Hunters
Torellian Shock mercenaries
Human Auxiliaries


More Kroot units are welcome but I also want a new race. My vote is for Demiurg but it will probably be those goat looking people they had concept sketches of...

TimLeeson
11-08-2009, 17:25
I hope this is true on the basis of the dog-soldiers being added, more xenos ? yes please!

Maxis Lithium
11-08-2009, 17:39
There has been mention before of Tau. I believe that some point in the later hald of 2008 there was word that the book had been going into concept stages. This was about the same time that rumrs about Tyranids also getting looked at. Bugswere likly to be first at the time.

In some of the rumors regarding Tau, there was talk of some manner of Centar-type xenos race added to the Tau. If these turn out to be the 'dog soldiers' I would not be supprised.

My guess at this point is that, if these rumors are starting to leak out, then they are done with most of the basic concept stuff, and are now turning to Sculpters to do concept art. these rumors are likly based on someone having see some concept sketches. If this is true, then a 2 year timeline from this point makes sense, as it's about a year for models to go from concept to production, about 6 months for writing and playtesting and then 6 months for production, distrabution and marketing. 2011 isn't a bad estimate at all really.

Again, this is all just guesses on my part, based on my recolections. I'n nor intending to search the Warseer archives for evidence.

BrotherMoses
11-08-2009, 18:13
Have they released plastic models of Tau fleeing yet? Tau players always get soooo upset when I suggest they pose their fire warriors that way. :p

Bregalad
11-08-2009, 18:21
@Zelnik: Nice that you start the rumour with releaving the leak. They will be rewarded by GW headquarters ;)

Not sure about the rumours.
1.) Ethereals less useless? Sounds like a plan!
2.) More Characters including old ones? Current GW strategy.
3.) One special character deleted because it's not on the shelves? Nonsense, most characters are mail order only after a short time.
4.) Gue'Vesa a troops choice? Possible but sooo boring. If you want to play IG stuff, play IG.
5.) Tarellian dog soldiers? Another butt-ugly and possibly useless Alien unit? Give us something better please like cc centaurs. Or more Kroot. Or Ninja-catgirls in school uniforms ;)

Speaking of it, here is the Tau Codex wishlisting thread to keep this thread clean ;)
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212843

starlight
11-08-2009, 18:26
In all the contacts and discussions I've had with all the people I know who *know stuff*...


...never has *anything* been mentioned about the Tau, in addition, the schedule is pretty much full for the next 18-24 months, so don't hold your breath. :)

I'll put this down to:

a) wishlisting
b) if it had *any* degree of confirmation, then *maybe* early playtest ideas...but that's a stretch...
c) wishlisting

BigBadBull
11-08-2009, 18:56
In some of the rumors regarding Tau, there was talk of some manner of Centar-type xenos race added to the Tau. If these turn out to be the 'dog soldiers' I would not be supprised.



Yeah I already put that up , but no one saw it.. :(

shaso_iceborn
11-08-2009, 19:00
In all the contacts and discussions I've had with all the people I know who *know stuff*...


...never has *anything* been mentioned about the Tau, in addition, the schedule is pretty much full for the next 18-24 months, so don't hold your breath. :)

I'll put this down to:

a) wishlisting
b) if it had *any* degree of confirmation, then *maybe* early playtest ideas...but that's a stretch...
c) wishlisting

even I am sure some of it is wishlisting even I say take it wit salt I simply post what I here

massey
11-08-2009, 20:09
In all the contacts and discussions I've had with all the people I know who *know stuff*...


...never has *anything* been mentioned about the Tau, in addition, the schedule is pretty much full for the next 18-24 months, so don't hold your breath. :)

I'll put this down to:

a) wishlisting
b) if it had *any* degree of confirmation, then *maybe* early playtest ideas...but that's a stretch...
c) wishlisting

So... 18-24 months is already set?

Any... hints?

starlight
11-08-2009, 20:24
Aside from that some people already have fairly close guesses/info...? Nope. :p Not getting anyone fired, not me. :)


The *list* may be set, but there are always last minute (comparatively speaking) changes to the order of things as difficulties arise with sprues, or castings, or printing, or whatever... No one knows *for sure*, not even GW, because no one can see that far into the future. All we know so far is what people *hope* will happen. :)

MajorWesJanson
11-08-2009, 20:31
But rumors I have heard say

Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Tau
Inquisition

In approximately that order

My guess would be
Space Wolves
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels
Necron
Tau
Inquisition

Triszin The Wrath God
11-08-2009, 20:35
My guess would be
Space Wolves
Tyranids
Necron
Blood Angels
Dark Eldar
Tau
Inquisition


fixed, i'd rather see the dark eldar later rather than earlier, everyone has waited this long, let them wait a little longer for better quality.

MajorWesJanson
11-08-2009, 20:40
It was mentioned that Necrons are not very far in the process yet, while Dark Eldar are mainly waiting for models to be done.

BigBadBull
11-08-2009, 20:48
Don't forget this summers leak of the BT's from Jervis and co...

Zelnik
11-08-2009, 20:55
Hey all, OP here.


Thanks to everyone who supported the thread, and boo to those who sobbed about a wishlist.

Again, these are RUMORS. That means there is a level of wishlisting involved.

Quote from a GW staffer: "I love the tau, but currently i am missing out on a whole third of the game; a whole phase of play is effectively lost on them".

I have heard through word of mouth that there will be a special issue power weapon. i don't know any further details, but lets not forget.. special issue means ONE. ONE in the entire army. As opposed to everyone else who has something like it.

Also, I have heard a rumor that the Fragmentation device that is used on vehicles and on Shas'O R'myr may become special issue for crisis suits, or even an option (Providing some defense for crisis suits in CC, something they lack considerably).

Other rumors i have heard are more unusual things, like a T5 crisis suit, and rail rifles as a crisis suit weapon option.

When it comes to ethereal's, They ain't leaving the game. That is for certain because they are essential for the fluff of the tau.

When it comes to human auxilliaries, it is the same as above. It is a great way to give your army character. Also, i like the idea of a six point shooty troop choice that can tote a markerlight.
As it stands, since they are easier to convert, it is most likely they will be put in so GW does not have to spend money making a new unit.

Also, same goes with the Tallellians, since they are just saurus warriors in space :P

MarshallSam
11-08-2009, 21:06
I don't think the special issue gear would become standard, because that would mean an advance in the timeline. Kinda like:

"Oh that new experimental gun works quite well. Tell the Earth caste to start equipping all suits with it."

00mrfish00
11-08-2009, 21:09
Tau are not in the list of armies that are actually being redone at the mo. Your source is wrong and hopefully that'll save his/her job.

Bregalad
11-08-2009, 21:13
In some of the rumors regarding Tau, there was talk of some manner of Centar-type xenos race added to the Tau.

Yeah I already put that up , but no one saw it.. :(
You two are referring to the rumours for the CURRENT Codex, as the centaur concept sketches were done as alternatives to Vespids and lost to them. So you are several years late, folks ;)


When it comes to human auxilliaries, it is the same as above. It is a great way to give your army character.
Yeah, now Tau armies can stand out among all those ugly IG armies ;)
I don't get it why some people think that copying another army makes your army unique?

Epicenter
11-08-2009, 21:18
I don't think the special issue gear would become standard, because that would mean an advance in the timeline. Kinda like:

"Oh that new experimental gun works quite well. Tell the Earth caste to start equipping all suits with it."

You mean like the Rail Rifles for Pathfinders?

Earthbeard
11-08-2009, 21:21
Also, same goes with the Tallellians, since they are just saurus warriors in space :P

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere, that they aren't bipedal, so thats a little wrong!

Of course my memory could be wrong too :P

Besides Tarellians despise and hate humans, can't see gue'vasa and them in same list for fluff reasons...of course fluff is often abused like a $10 hooker.

Gen.Steiner
11-08-2009, 21:57
"You fight together for the Greater Good, cast aside your petty squabbles-"
"Only if you pay us more."
"Only if you billet us far away from those warhounds."
"... I think you're missing the point here..."

TimLeeson
11-08-2009, 22:05
You two are referring to the rumours for the CURRENT Codex, as the centaur concept sketches were done as alternatives to Vespids and lost to them. So you are several years late, folks ;)


Yeah, now Tau armies can stand out among all those ugly IG armies ;)
I don't get it why some people think that copying another army makes your army unique?


I dig those centaur aliens on the far left! really cool concept art, and suits the Tau. Hope they appear alongside Demiurg and others. Gotta agree on gue'vasa, id rather NOT see those, their boring as hell and theres too many damn humans as it is without them invading the few Xeno armies.

firechao
11-08-2009, 23:54
It would be cool to see new races with the tau... maybe make some new meatshields for the fire caste, more resistant ones... (kroot die too easily)...It would also be nice to get new characters, like an upgrade special character that made the fire warriors actually have a chance at hitting their targets (like BS4)...
NOTE: this is entirely wishlisting, havent heard any rumours at all, besides the ones in this thread...

axelbro
12-08-2009, 02:43
You mean like the Rail Rifles for Pathfinders?

Exactly what I was thinking. Rail Rifles come out in WD and then as Chapter Approved, next thing we know they are in the codex with some of the original restricts removed!

Inquisitor Engel
12-08-2009, 04:02
I dig those centaur aliens on the far left!

You should see the other concept I've never seen leaked.

It was basically an intelligent quadruped the size of a tank with a railgun on its back (fired by a willing Fire Warrior). Krootox on steroids really.

Neither of these will ever see the light of day, naturally.

Hokiecow
12-08-2009, 11:05
It would be cool if they published their concepts they will never do on the website.

Born Again
12-08-2009, 14:03
Other rumors i have heard are more unusual things, like a T5 crisis suit, and rail rifles as a crisis suit weapon option.

When it comes to ethereal's, They ain't leaving the game. That is for certain because they are essential for the fluff of the tau.



Rail rifles on suits would make me very excited. Good to hear ethereals aren't leaving, they may not be that useful but are great fluff-wise, they just need to make them better.

Brucopeloso
12-08-2009, 15:53
A new tau dex with a few more aline auxiliaries thrown in would be cool!

nathonicus
12-08-2009, 20:17
Aw man.....

After a year of scouring forums for IG rumours, losing sleep and getting a cramp in my index finger from hitting F5 ad nauseum, now I have to drool over the possibility of an update for my real favoritest army?

*sigh* And with the release dates full up for a while, that means it will be a long way off. I would love, love, love to see a new Tau book.

More aliens would be great, human auxilaries would be fun (but I doubt they would do that, they seem to be steering away from cross-over models) and I would love to have wargear that works once more! Seriously, it seems like half the stuff in our armory doesn't actually function any more.

And given the price reduction we've seen in most tranpsorts, I salivate at the dream of cheap, cheap devilfish.

Zelnik
12-08-2009, 22:45
I can't believe i forgot this.


BS4 elites and bodyguards.

chaos0xomega
12-08-2009, 23:58
I believe when the current tau codex was released it was said by members of the GW design studio that the Tau were the only race in 40k(aside from the Tyranids) that were constantly expanding, developing new technology, and evolving, and in order to represent this they wanted to update the Tau codex more regularly than other codecies, with more special issue wargear and auxilaries being released and some existing wargear becoming more commonplace and used throughout the force.

megatrons2nd
13-08-2009, 00:28
I remember that as well.

Zelnik
13-08-2009, 02:59
I also want to point out, that the Tau are big sellers for GW. It's in their best interest to keep them up to date to keep raking in the cash :3

chaos0xomega
13-08-2009, 03:04
You know, this rumor actually does make sense now that Zelnik mentioned that. They aren't REALLY big sellers, no more so than other comparable armies, they aren't space marines by any means. They were originally released to appeal to the asian market, but it didn't work out too well (I dont think because of the Tau, just GW's efforts were misguided and poorly done).

Well, GW is trying to revitalize it's asian efforts right now from what I understand, so a re-do of the codex that is intended to bring them widespread success in the eastern market (I.E. the space marines of the east...) makes perfect sense.

shaso_iceborn
13-08-2009, 03:06
I believe when the current tau codex was released it was said by members of the GW design studio that the Tau were the only race in 40k(aside from the Tyranids) that were constantly expanding, developing new technology, and evolving, and in order to represent this they wanted to update the Tau codex more regularly than other codecies, with more special issue wargear and auxilaries being released and some existing wargear becoming more commonplace and used throughout the force.

correct every 4-5 yrs in fact

Firaxin
13-08-2009, 04:22
I can't believe i forgot this.

BS4 elites and bodyguards.
Ok, now you're really wish listing.

Power weapons and ork auxiliaries (because that's basically what Tarellians would be, S3/T4)?! Makes no sense. Counts-as Power weapons as Earth Caste plasma cutters on an engineer squad/exosuit, I could see, but as an experimental weapon (even if the 1/army makes it balanced) means the Fio's are seriously considering making it a standard weapon for the Fire Caste, which does not make sense no matter how you look at it. That and adding new CC auxiliaries makes this sound like you're just trying to plug the Tau's CC weakness.

As for Human Auxiliaries? Even lamer/less likely. They don't have a niche in the army list, and if you want to play humans you can pick up the IG codex.

And the other stuff is so painfully obvious (CIBs as rending, etc) that my idiot kid brother has been wishing for it for months.

chaos0xomega
13-08-2009, 05:56
vespids are s3 t4, I guess that didn't make any sense either? And what makes you think a plasma cutter wouldn't be the rumored power weapon? Combat engineering (which DOESN'T actually mean engineering, it means demolitions and obstacle clearance, something that would be done by the fire caste rather than earth caste) is an important role in modern warfare, and is underrepresented in 40k, and many other games. A crisis suit armed with a "plasma cutter" makes perfect sense as a combat engineering unit.

Speaking of cc weakness... it needs to go away, or at least be reduced. The game engine itself (in part due to standad table size) won't allow for the creation of a fairly balanced army that is so heavily lacking in assault capability without seriously overpowering them in terms of shooting capability. I.E. giving them a MAJOR shooting boost, as the Tau are nowhere near good enough at shooting atm to counteract their disadvantage. 40k is an abstract game. There are lots of things in the fluff that aren't represented accurately on the tabletop for the sake of game balance (Space Marines not being "gods of war" as per fluff, tyranids (and orks) outnumbering everything (guard can field greater numbers than anyone), orks not being stronger than your average human, grey knights being absolutely horrible against daemons... (:P)), Tau Firewarrior statlines could be just another one of those things

isaac
13-08-2009, 11:55
What is the problem with having Humans? As long as they are not the only xenos added to the tau, but even then that would be not that bad.

I just don't see why humans should not be represented in the codex.

Born Again
13-08-2009, 12:49
because humans are already around in the IG, WH/ DH, and countless marine books. It would be an opportunity to have a cool new alien race wasted on having IG with tau guns.

Monachus
13-08-2009, 13:08
I also want to point out, that the Tau are big sellers for GW. It's in their best interest to keep them up to date to keep raking in the cash :3

You could use the same argument for a few armies, the main problem with your point however is that tau aren't actually big sellers

Gazak Blacktoof
13-08-2009, 13:53
I just don't see why humans should not be represented in the codex.

I agree, they're a big part of the Tau background and yet absent from the game.

It's equivalent to not putting psykers in one army simply because they are part of several others.


I don't suppose they will make it into the Tau codex though, because as already pointed out GW seem to dislike hybridisation of their lines. Unless GW are prepared to make a new kit for the human helpers I don't suppose they'll ever be in the codex. GW's thinking changes constantly though.

Solar_Eclipse
13-08-2009, 14:34
I agree, they're a big part of the Tau background and yet absent from the game.

I disagree.

Alot of Imperial Guard players dont want their army to be the whore of the gaming world.

Let us keep our own damn soldiers, Emperor Dammit, Get your own!

Gazak Blacktoof
13-08-2009, 14:45
Alot of Imperial Guard players dont want their army to be the whore of the gaming world.


Ah, I see, this might be a cultural misunderstanding. When the Imperium abandoned its soldiers the Tau must have thought they were pimping them out.:angel:

Solar_Eclipse
13-08-2009, 14:52
hehehe

But you know what i mean.

The Imperial Guard has Imperial Guardsmen

The Tau Empire have Tau firewarriors.

If you dont ask for Guardsmen, we wont ask for firewarriors.

BigBadBull
13-08-2009, 15:46
You could use the same argument for a few armies, the main problem with your point however is that tau aren't actually big sellers

I disagree. In the NA there are usually #3-4-5, where Marines are way above every one else, IG have seen a major reassurance since the new dex that moved them back to #2. Orks Nid Tau swap around with which ever is the most recent dex out. That is the way it has worked for about 5-8 years except that the Ig were in the rumble mix since their dex was so old. We will see in about a year if they stay above third tier with the Xenos dexes.

So like if nids come out next .... they will jump up, if the Tau get more shooty and get new stuff then they will leap frog...

Marines are a constant.Hince why one of three dexs are marine.
Marine = life blood of co.
Xenos = profit for the co.
IG = 2x Icing on the cake !:evilgrin:

FerociousBeast
13-08-2009, 15:47
The Tau Empire have Tau firewarriors and Kroot and Vespids and human auxiliaries and any other alien race they can convince to follow the Greater Good.
Fixed that quote for you...

Brucopeloso
13-08-2009, 15:54
Fixed that quote for you...

Now that's disturbing! it's making me think of collectiong a tau army :wtf:

Torgaddon
13-08-2009, 16:14
I don't know much about the Tau but surely they'd benefit from having some humans in their dex. It would add a lot of flavour to their battles as most people play Imperium in one form or another and the Imperium loves to exact vengeance on a traitor.
If you're worried about variety and that spamming the game with humans consider the possibility having a non Tau unit for each force org slot in the game. You could effectively take a mercenary/rogue trader list. It might depend largely on the HQs they make available but hey I'm just conjecturing.

With the trend of unit upgrade SCs and SCs that alter your troop choices, I can see a wealth of new characters in a Tau dex and some of them are bound to be alien. The more the better.

shaso_iceborn
13-08-2009, 16:21
Now that's disturbing! it's making me think of collectiong a tau army :wtf:

There are not insanely far out that their not on the radar.

there were non production models made a while back. Slightly after the newer Dark Eldar concept sketches.

basically with Tau clean up the KP ratio, adjust points to be more inline with 5th, give units grenades as standard (seems to be the way things are going) a few new units, and more of the current metals to plastics.

So in short "IF" Tau were being redone we might see

plastic pathfinders
fully plastic broadsides
maybe plastic kroot hounds and ox*1

New units possibly added (not all or possibly even any of these will be added)

Knarloc riders (though you would have to use forgeworld models for now)
Tetra new plastic kit :D
Barracuda new plastic kit (with rules for "Tau flier")
Demiurg Blood brothers squad
Guela'vesa Human auxiliaries

Plastic remora drone fighter ("Tau flier") :D
Kroot hunter kindred rules
Tarellian Dog mercenaries covert operation squad
Niccasar Drow Anti psychics :D


the rumors I have heard include some of the above and some of the above is personal wishlisting honestly it's about 1/2 and 1/2. I marked my "wishlisting' with :D the rest I have heard are possible. but as always I only pass along what I hear and even I think some of this is wishlisting. Some however is not.


*1 would be nice to see a set with both kroot hounds and kroot ox in it. say 4 hounds and one ox for $30

Voss
13-08-2009, 17:15
*1 would be nice to see a set with both kroot hounds and kroot ox in it. say 4 hounds and one ox for $30

No, please. Don't mix the lovely hounds with the ugly and useless krootox. That would be a bad thing.

Bregalad
13-08-2009, 17:42
I don't know much about the Tau but surely they'd benefit from having some humans in their dex. It would add a lot of flavour to their battles as most people play Imperium in one form or another and the Imperium loves to exact vengeance on a traitor.
If you're worried about variety and that spamming the game with humans consider the possibility having a non Tau unit for each force org slot in the game.
Most people play Space Marines. Why not add Space Marines as a standard unit to Tau, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids and Necrons? Hey, why not make them mandatory? This would surely add flavour to all non-SM armies :rolleyes:

Monachus
13-08-2009, 17:54
I disagree. In the NA there are usually #3-4-5, where Marines are way above every one else

yes but tau sales are average, they are outsold consistantly by orks, space marines, IG, nids and CSM year after year, that's not saying sales for them are bad but they have never been a big seller

chaos0xomega
13-08-2009, 17:57
They are outsold by orks, ig, and nids because you need to buy twice the number of models for those armies in order to field the same number of points. I am sure that GW takes this into consideration when they rank-order armies by popularity.

Bloodspeaker
13-08-2009, 17:59
Yeah that's because they are around, what 7-8 years while the other races have been around since the "beginning of time" so you can't compare them...

loveless
13-08-2009, 18:01
Alright, I'm a bit confused by this "We want human auxiliaries!" talk from some of the posters. Surely you can just use counts-as rules for Firewarriors for them? I mean, the changes aren't that different in statline between a human and a tau, are they? What role would the humans play in a Tau Empire army?

Variety for the sake of variety just leads to one unit sitting on the shelf. If Firewarriors do the job better, that's what people will take. Likewise, if humans did it better, they'd take humans. This is all outside of themed armies, of course, but if you just want a modeling theme...well...just combine some Tau and IG bits...can't be that hard.

Tastyfish
13-08-2009, 18:08
I think the other main reason for the 'releasing codices more rapidly for rapidly developing races' is as much a marketing decision as a fluff one. Only so many sprues and moulds you can dedicate to a release so an entirely new army is going to have less than an established one. Think of it as more bringing the diversity of the range up to the same standard of the more established races whenever it becomes economically viable to do so.

Personally I don't think we're going to see the codex in the near future (though no doubt it is being 'worked on' in some capacity - even if its just the designers making a list of fixes and wild ideas). The list at the being of the thread seems a little too much like stuff that is probably going to happen (or seems obvious), doesn't seem to be any new information, which makes me think its just guess work or vey early on. I think tyranids, dark eldar and necrons are going to be out first.



You know, this rumor actually does make sense now that Zelnik mentioned that. They aren't REALLY big sellers, no more so than other comparable armies, they aren't space marines by any means. They were originally released to appeal to the asian market, but it didn't work out too well (I dont think because of the Tau, just GW's efforts were misguided and poorly done).

Well, GW is trying to revitalize it's asian efforts right now from what I understand, so a re-do of the codex that is intended to bring them widespread success in the eastern market (I.E. the space marines of the east...) makes perfect sense.

Tau were never designed to be the 'space marines of the east', Fantasy is the main seller in Japan rather than 40K and when trying to create and enlarge a new market, establishing a brand is the most important thing for something like GW. The Tau are more a result of several common sci-fi archetypes, some of which are quite popular in anime and manga.

Deadnight
13-08-2009, 18:17
I agree, they're a big part of the Tau background and yet absent from the game.
.


not really. there are a few human worlds, but in terms of the numbers of human fighting for the tau, versus, say, fire warriors, you're talking about one human for every thousand or so fire warriors...



It's equivalent to not putting psykers in one army simply because they are part of several others.
.

not really. they're more akin to having "cook" and "quartermaster" units in an IG army. Like they're there, but there are so few of them, and to be honest, on the battlefield, they really dont do that much.
Only place i know of where tau used a LOT of gue'la was taros in IAV3 and they only did that because the humans were already there, and yet, in oth engagements they were involved in (defending the missile silo, and defending the water plant) they got beaten.


I don't know much about the Tau but surely they'd benefit from having some humans in their dex.

how so? what can they do? what niche can they fill? basically why would i take a guardsman over a fire warrior when the fire warrior has better armour, weapons and range. and remember, tau only let gue'la use lasguns. why would i take a guardsman over a kroot, when kroot can infiltrate, have better ws str more attacks and a better gun. do i want a horde to charge across the field and soak up fire? thats about all gue'la are good for and tau dont like that type of war...



It would add a lot of flavour to their battles as most people play Imperium in one form or another and the Imperium loves to exact vengeance on a traitor.

So i take a unit that gives half the armies out there a free advantage? yeah... as for flavour? its "tau" my good man. that is where the flavour is. you know? suits, grav tanks, exotic aliens....


If you're worried about variety and that spamming the game with humans consider the possibility having a non Tau unit for each force org slot in the game. You could effectively take a mercenary/rogue trader list. It might depend largely on the HQs they make available but hey I'm just conjecturing.

i dont like the notion of having a "tau" army without any tau units in it. its not very "tau" to be honest.

chaos0xomega
13-08-2009, 18:18
errr... yeah they were Tastyfish. I don't think its a coincidence that GW released Tau just when they started to make their first attempts at developing the asian market. Just because fantasy is the main seller, doesn't mean that the Tau weren't intended to be the main seller. GW obviously didn't do proper market research, and believed all asians to be into mech anime when they designed the Tau.


i dont like the notion of having a "tau" army without any tau units in it. its not very "tau" to be honest.

Thank you!Its about time someone other than myself has said this. This is codex TAU empires, not codex MOSTLY TAU BUT YOU CAN FIELD ENTIRE ARMIES MADE UP OF NOT TAU.

Seriously, stop asking for the Tau codex to also be a full kroot mercs codex. Making a 2 in 1 codex isn't going to make the army better competitively or more diverse, all what it is going to accomplish is releasing 2 horribly nerfed subpar army lists. I am totally fine with removing the 1+ restriction on Firewarriors, but I hope to god in high heaven that the 1+ restriction on a crisis suit commander never goes away

Tastyfish
13-08-2009, 18:45
errr... yeah they were Tastyfish. I don't think its a coincidence that GW released Tau just when they started to make their first attempts at developing the asian market. Just because fantasy is the main seller, doesn't mean that the Tau weren't intended to be the main seller. GW obviously didn't do proper market research, and believed all asians to be into mech anime when they designed the Tau.


The Tau book predates the first GW store in Japan by 5 years. But anyway, this is getting off topic - as cheap as it is to get the last word in and say we should start a new thread, let start a new thread for this if you want to discuss the origins of the Tau and what you think it might mean for future development.

I think the main problem for a new codex is that the fact the Tau have all the specialist weapons on the suits and that they had to designed from scratch, its hard to come up with a niche that a new unit could fill as otherwise its just going to be a book of special issue wargear and another merc competing with nother merc's spot. However after the release of the rest of the 5th ed codices an obvious opening might be more available

Gazak Blacktoof
13-08-2009, 18:57
not really. there are a few human worlds, but in terms of the numbers of human fighting for the tau, versus, say, fire warriors, you're talking about one human for every thousand or so fire warriors...

The number of them proportionate to the Tau doesn't really matter. What's the number of nicasar or vespid as compared to Tau?

One major element of the Tau background is the crusade against them by the Imperium. The major consequence of that war was the abandonment of Imperial forces within the Tau sphere and their subsequent induction into the Tau army. However it wont only be humans from the crusade that have found their way into Tau forces, they are after all only second in numbers to orks.

Anyway no more back forth for me. Back to rumours

Tastyfish
13-08-2009, 19:02
The number of them proportionate to the Tau doesn't really matter. What's the number of nicasar or vespid as compared to Tau?

One major element of the Tau background is the crusade against them by the Imperium. The major consequence of that war was the abandonment of Imperial forces within the Tau sphere and their subsequent induction into the Tau army. However it wont only be humans from the crusade that have found their way into Tau forces, they are after all only second in numbers to orks.

Thematically, it does dilute the 'Tau feel' of the army in a way that unique aliens like the Kroot doesn't. Orks had their access to replicate Imperial vehicles replaced with a generic more orky one.

Also, there's very little mention of the abandoned humans being incorperated into armies. On Taros there was just Tau-aligned mining workers defending the mines, and the PDF fighting the initial invasion attempts before the Tau army mobilised (and being used to garrison objectives behind the front lines). The propaganda with the ex-soldiers shows them as farmers living peacefully (why sign up if they just want you to fight like the other guys did).

Not to mention the complete mess of a things recent timelines have made of the Crusade meaning we've no idea at what point these soldiers might have been used...

FerociousBeast
13-08-2009, 19:46
Alright, I'm a bit confused by this "We want human auxiliaries!" talk from some of the posters. Surely you can just use counts-as rules for Firewarriors for them? I mean, the changes aren't that different in statline between a human and a tau, are they? What role would the humans play in a Tau Empire army?Well, ironically, they'd play the role of superior Fire Warriors. That's the biggest problem with including them in the Tau army list. They fight just like Fire Warriors, only they're better in CC.

That's probably why they can't be made part of the army list. They'd have to be troops, and they'd be better troops than Fire Warriors. Unless you were going to say that things like marker lights and Ethereal bonuses don't affect them. But that's probably not enough.

GW probably couldn't put human auxiliaries in the codex because of this.

Tastyfish
13-08-2009, 20:43
They wouldn't have to be better stated troops than firewarriors, just cheaper ones as the option to fill an objective with warm bodies in cover would be quite appealing to the Tau who suffer from having relatively expensive troops who aren't quite good enough to dislodge another similarly expensive unit from cover guarding an objective.

They encountered the same problem in epic, when combined with Imperial Guard the fire warriors work best as a storm trooper equivalent - providing heavy firepower from a mobile transport whilst leaving the actual holding of ground to cheap auxileries. Dilutes the feel to have the 'basic trooper' role, regardless of the actual Force Org slot used to be filled by something that isn't Tau.

Iverald
13-08-2009, 21:11
I think that increased squad count for firewarrios as well as decerease in cost would improve things for Tau. The buggers in massed numbers do real damage. Max. 72 basic troops is not enough, but would giving Tau a more horde aspect contradict their fluff?

Mozzamanx
13-08-2009, 21:21
Fluffwise, couldn't they justify this by giving Gue'Vesa heavier armour and Pulse Rifles? IE- Mixing humans into the Fire Teams. Hell, even a piece of artwork showing this would probably satisfy the players to a sufficient degree.
The lack of combat skills can simply be for simplicitys sake. Besides, WS/I 3 was hardly going to be awesome.

TaintedSpam
13-08-2009, 21:58
I used to love using 12 man Gue'Vesa squads to claim table quarters. With two pulse rifles for fun sometimes too... I don't see anything wrong with them being available. Then again, I miss Aun'Shi too...

chaos0xomega
13-08-2009, 22:33
creative solution: Combine firewarrior squads and gue'vesa squads into a platoon formation. You purchase a firewarrior squad, and then for the same force org chart you can purchase two squads of gue'vesa.

Gue'vesa should still be armed with lasguns(or something less effective than a carbine/rifle), 5+ save, ld 7 (it's stated that the Tau view humans as inferior (which can be seen in the lit. translation of gue'vesa as 'lowest helper' or something similar to that IIRC) os it only makes sense that they have poor leadership scores, since they're essentially rear-line meatpuppets).

Bregalad
13-08-2009, 23:05
One major element of the Tau background is the crusade against them by the Imperium. The major consequence of that war was the abandonment of Imperial forces within the Tau sphere and their subsequent induction into the Tau army.
So a complete IG regiment with IG weapons, IG structure, IG strategies (Tau don't use meat shields) and IG vehicles joins the Tau Empire. Guess, what Codex might represent those IG forces :rolleyes:

But let's get back to discuss the tidbits/wish lists of the early planning stages of a far away Tau Empire Codex.

chaos0xomega
13-08-2009, 23:41
CODEX SPACE MARINES! errr... wait... Codex: IG? :P

From what I understand they weren't inducted into the Tau army. They were merely given the option to live or die. Those that chose to live were allowed to settle on Tau planets, and some chose to join the Tau forces. So if anything it would be a complete IG regiment with Tau/IG hybrid weapons, Tau structure, Tau strategies, and Tau vehicles (they have to maintain the vehicles, remember? They can't do that if they lack replacement parts and equipment to do that. There is a reason why countries like vietnam have american aircraft but can't use them).

Firaxin
13-08-2009, 23:42
vespids are s3 t4, I guess that didn't make any sense either?
Vespid aren't anything like orks. They're an expensive, highly mobile yet fragile unit with short range, high AP weapons.

Tarellians would be footslogging S3/T4 shock/assault troops, just like the orks, and almost completely opposite of what the Vespid are.


And what makes you think a plasma cutter wouldn't be the rumored power weapon? Combat engineering (which DOESN'T actually mean engineering, it means demolitions and obstacle clearance, something that would be done by the fire caste rather than earth caste) is an important role in modern warfare, and is underrepresented in 40k, and many other games. A crisis suit armed with a "plasma cutter" makes perfect sense as a combat engineering unit.
Page 12 of the Tau codex would imply otherwise, where it clearly describes the Earth Caste filling that role. I know what combat engineering is, don't imply that I'm an idiot just because my views coincide with GW's. Combat Engineers, btw, aren't underrepresented in 40k, but that's for a different thread.


Speaking of cc weakness... it needs to go away, or at least be reduced... There are lots of things in the fluff that aren't represented accurately on the tabletop for the sake of game balance... Tau Firewarrior statlines could be just another one of those things
:rolleyes: This is the point where I roll my eyes and check out of this thread.


Plastic remora drone fighter ("Tau flier") :D
That's not unreasonable. A model already exists for it, unlike Tarellian, Demiurg, Nicassar, or Human auxiliaries, which makes its inclusion about a thousand times more likely than any of them.


The number of them proportionate to the Tau doesn't really matter. What's the number of nicasar or vespid as compared to Tau?
Well, pg13 of the codex says "...auxiliaries have been incorporated into the Tau Empire, the most common being the mercenary kroot and the insectoid vespid." So there's quite a lot of Vespid. The Kroot have a miniature empire in their own right (with 1/3 as many planets as there are Sept worlds, and that's only the ones marked on the map), and the Vespid only one world, but being 'insectoid' it's likely they have queens capable of producing huge numbers of offspring to warrant being so common.

As for the Nicassar, BFG Armada says on pg107 that they were the first alien race incorporated into the Tau Empire, and the fleet list allows you to field more Nicassar ships than even Kroot ships. The same page also states that they're 'ill-suited to ground combat' as a result of 'limited mobility'. This is most likely because the Nicassar are a nomadic space-faring race that has been exploring the galaxy at sublight speeds, and their bodies have atrophied over generations of exposure to zero-G.

As they've been explicitly described as ill-suited to ground combat, you're not going to see them on a 40k table top and any suggestion otherwise is wishlisting.

The Demiurg are rare, 'only occassionally sighted' even by the Tau, and only 2 brotherhoods from the entire race has thrown their lot in with the greater good (meaning 2 ships max), and only 3 total confirmed instances of other Demiurg ships working as mercenaries in Tau or Kroot fleets. Nevertheless, being the most technologically advanced race the Tau have ever encountered, and being responsible for huge leaps in Tau tech (Ion weaponry, most notably), the option to include them in a limited capacity is warranted. There's never been any evidence of them having ground forces or even having settled planets, let alone an official picture of one of their race. In that respect, they are less likely to show up than the Tarellians, who at least had a sizeable chunk of description in Thorpe's Kill Team, though theoretically they would be a better fit in the Tau codex.


Gue'vesa should not be included, even if it would make sense. If you want to use a cannon-fodder play style, you've got the wrong codex. It's not what the Tau Empire is about. GW already realized this when they put Vespid in the last codex instead of Gue'vesa, so it's not going to happen. Thus: Wishlisting.

Deus Mechanicus
13-08-2009, 23:58
I wish you could make an entire army out of Vespids :(

the_wolf
14-08-2009, 00:07
hope so for this news

Joewrightgm
14-08-2009, 00:55
They could make them like summoned demons, IE, don't take up a troops slot, so you'd have to have at least 2 squads of fire warriors or one of fire warriors and kroot.

That, combined with not benefiting from marker lights and ethereals, that would seem much more reasonable.

Azzy
14-08-2009, 00:58
My guess would be
Space Wolves
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels
Necron
Tau
Inquisition

I'm thinking more like...

Space Wolves
Tyranids
Blood Angels
Dark Eldar
Daemonhunters*
Necrons

After that, I'd say it gets really vague--too vague to put anything into a release order (but we can assume that Witchhunters, Tau, Black Templars, and Dark Angels will get a revamp at some point). Tau are definitely further off than Necrons, and DE are definitely coming before Necrons. There have also been rumblings about Daemonhunters, and despite rampant speculation on teh interwebs that the Inquisition armies will be combined into a single codex, I haven't seen any talk from anyone "in the know" that supports that idea in the least.

shaso_iceborn
14-08-2009, 01:46
Tau are definitely further off than Necrons

I wouldn't be to sure about that. Necrons do not have any new concept sculpts yet.

chaos0xomega
14-08-2009, 02:11
Vespid aren't anything like orks. They're an expensive, highly mobile yet fragile unit with short range, high AP weapons.

Tarellians would be footslogging S3/T4 shock/assault troops, just like the orks, and almost completely opposite of what the Vespid are.



You really don't know that at all. There is very little fluff publsihed about Tarellians at the moment, what is known is that they are aggressive, hate humans, are shorter than a human, have a narrow waist, broad shoulders, and look reptilian.

Additionally the name dog soldier, which AFAIK has only ever been used by the Cheyenne Indians, implies that they would be anything but an assault unit. Historically dog soldiers were an extremely aggressive troop of Cheyenne Indians who were known to drive a steak through a long clothtied around the back of their waste and into the ground, preventing their movement far from this chosen location. To me that sounds more like a unit of high toughness/armor save troops virtually impossible to kill.


Page 12 of the Tau codex would imply otherwise, where it clearly describes the Earth Caste filling that role. I know what combat engineering is, don't imply that I'm an idiot just because my views coincide with GW's. Combat Engineers, btw, aren't underrepresented in 40k, but that's for a different thread.



I made no such implication whatsoever, any inference of such an implication is on you. And there are varying degrees of combat engineering. For example, the Army Corp of Engineers which would be responsible for setting up a FOB, DFP's, etc. and then you have sappers which are grunts with training in explosive demolitions, obstacle clearance etc. I'm pretty sure the Earth Caste would perform the former, while the fire caste would perform the latter.



This is the point where I roll my eyes and check out of this thread.

That's all good and well. I have my own beliefs and you have yours. As a game developer I see the limitations of the game engine and how that applies to the Tau.


As for the Nicassar, BFG Armada says on pg107 that they were the first alien race incorporated into the Tau Empire, and the fleet list allows you to field more Nicassar ships than even Kroot ships. The same page also states that they're 'ill-suited to ground combat' as a result of 'limited mobility'. This is most likely because the Nicassar are a nomadic space-faring race that has been exploring the galaxy at sublight speeds, and their bodies have atrophied over generations of exposure to zero-G.


Indeed. it would be nice if people stopped asking for nicassar as a psyker unit already.


The Demiurg are rare, 'only occassionally sighted' even by the Tau, and only 2 brotherhoods from the entire race has thrown their lot in with the greater good (meaning 2 ships max), and only 3 total confirmed instances of other Demiurg ships working as mercenaries in Tau or Kroot fleets.

Where is that sourced from? I read that on wikipedia once, but as far as I know, most/all fluff about them comes from Forgeworld. And being in possession of the only book from forgeworld which mentions them, I can't find that anywhere. And why only 2 ships? I thought a Brotherhood was an entire fleet, but in possession of only of the large vessels?

Zelnik
14-08-2009, 04:48
It's great to be able to determine who exactly are tau players and who are not.

Here is a quick tip.

Anyone who thinks the tau codex is fine: Most likely does not play tau, or plays it as a small secondary army.

Anyone who thinks the tau codex is in need of improvement: Most likely primary tau players who tend to get stomped because the 5th edition rules forced them to change tactics.

Anyone who does not argue and just says "I hope so!" or "we will see": Probably plays tau, enjoys the book, and loves watching tau lovers and tau haters shout at each other.

Anyone who says the tau are an appeal to the eastern culture: Totally misses the point and should spend some time away from 4chan.

Atrum Angelus
14-08-2009, 05:28
I highly doubt it. Their codex is one of the few 4th edition ones that actually improved in 5th edition (everyone else has had an update or needs one). They're perfectly fine, there are at least 3 armies begging for a new codex ahead of them.


He only said they were being worked on, for all we know they could be planned for after the badly needed ones are redone. However, this is GW, and they seem to update the popular races first.

chaos0xomega
14-08-2009, 05:43
Anyone who says the tau are an appeal to the eastern culture: Totally misses the point and should spend some time away from 4chan.

I never said they appeal to eastern culture, I said they intended to. And I have never been to 4chan. Go ******************************* yourself (note there is not actually a word there, just a silly expression of my how upset I am over being considered a creton that would visit such a piece of trash).

Zelnik
14-08-2009, 05:56
However you DO miss the point. It does not matter if it appeals to the eastern concept of big robots. People LIKE it, people will BUY it, and people DO buy it.

And before you even think about saying tau are based off the eastern robots, why not look at Eldar first.

ragnarocker
14-08-2009, 06:29
It's great to be able to determine who exactly are tau players and who are not.

Here is a quick tip.

Anyone who thinks the tau codex is fine: Most likely does not play tau, or plays it as a small secondary army.

Anyone who thinks the tau codex is in need of improvement: Most likely primary tau players who tend to get stomped because the 5th edition rules forced them to change tactics.

Anyone who does not argue and just says "I hope so!" or "we will see": Probably plays tau, enjoys the book, and loves watching tau lovers and tau haters shout at each other.

Anyone who says the tau are an appeal to the eastern culture: Totally misses the point and should spend some time away from 4chan.

I'm sorry, but that's just simply not true. Tau are the only Warhammer race I've ever played, starting in late 3rd edition, and moving on through 4th edition I played pretty heavily until about a year or two ago. I'm just starting to play again, but I've found that generally 5th edition has positively impacted my play-style, and I find that overall the rules are far more balanced than they were in 4th. Either way, they're not on the list of armies most in need of an update, something I can tell as being only a Tau gamer.

Azzy
14-08-2009, 06:39
I wouldn't be to sure about that. Necrons do not have any new concept sculpts yet.

I'll stand by assertion, thank you. :p

Zelnik
14-08-2009, 06:54
I suppose your right. However, I personally fall into the category of "My tactics got screwed and so now I hope for a new 'dex". I never said i was exempt from my own list!

Mostly i suffer from the "Space marine jumping thirty feet into the air to one-punch kill a skimmer" new rules. In fact, that has killed me in three games running... I shudder to confess that i am starting static tau again *sobs into the keyboard*

Cadian144
14-08-2009, 07:05
Wow...bit of a fire storm this thread..;)

Please dont mind this being my first post...I have been lurking on the Forums for years but never signed up to post comments previously...( dont throw rocks..please :angel:)

Quick note of thanks to the Mods and contributors here on Warseer, many many thanks:)

Onto the topic at hand regarding a new Tau codex being in the not to far off future would this not be keeping with the Fluff regarding the Tau ? they are a very very fast devloping culture, changing in leaps and bounds over the other older races. So a new codex done up with only minimal changes...ie put out soon...would fit ...I think ? Conjector on my part granted

If GW is keeping to the fluff then a new codex, with minimal changes would not be out of the question or that hard to do most likely, or does this ring of stupidity ?

1 new Xeno race incorporated to fill a small gap in the army would not be that far out or hard to create, requiring then mostly just fluff and some changes to tactics. Only a very small amount of new miniatures needed to be created, so not a huge drain of GW resources and it gets out yet an other Codex, one requring minimal changes. ( IMO)

( plus more importantly to GW it keeps the sales up on this line with a relativly easy quick fix. Not that Tau are a slow seller at all, but would keep them moving out the door without stalling sales. Not having players holding back buying thinking there will be a huge amount of new models coming, or models being made redundant.

GW marketing tactics dont allways follow the norm, so who knows, but I dont discount this rumor as being baseless. If I was a betting man...:D I would put money on a new Tau codex...with minimal changes but with a new Xeno added ( likely another elite like Vespids but more harder ground pounder hand to hand unit) sometime soon, as in before DE or Necrons. Again, my reason is that it would follow with GWs own fluff on the Tau and how fast they adapt and change. I think as it will not require anywhere near the rework of DE or Necrons the codex will be out some time after Nids...3-4 mths max ...again if I was a betting man;).

Sound to crazy ?
C

The Dude
14-08-2009, 07:37
I suppose your right. However, I personally fall into the category of "My tactics got screwed and so now I hope for a new 'dex".

How about, I don't know... changing your tactics? :angel:

Solar_Eclipse
14-08-2009, 08:31
How about, I don't know... changing your tactics?

Thanks for saying what we were all thinking!

Wrath
14-08-2009, 13:20
have to admit that is easier said then done. especially when you find one that is a lot of fun to run.

Solar_Eclipse
14-08-2009, 13:24
have to admit that is easier said then done. especially when you find one that is a lot of fun to run.

I still run Guardsmen armies with minimal Vehicles and no Heavy weapons.

Deadnight
14-08-2009, 14:26
I'm sorry, but that's just simply not true. Tau are the only Warhammer race I've ever played, starting in late 3rd edition, and moving on through 4th edition I played pretty heavily until about a year or two ago. I'm just starting to play again, but I've found that generally 5th edition has positively impacted my play-style, and I find that overall the rules are far more balanced than they were in 4th. Either way, they're not on the list of armies most in need of an update, something I can tell as being only a Tau gamer.

i have found 5th to be a huge kick in the teeth to tau on a whole level of fronts.
Mainly because in 4th, tau relied on SMF as their main, and only tactic. that got gimped in 5th, and so the primary tau tactic also got gimped.
But on the whole, vehicular firepower has suffered.
the increase in speed of various units has hurt tau severely.
the increase in the lethality of cc has hurt tau severely (casualties = ld mod, assaulting with frags mean you strike at initiative).
true LOS has severely hurt crisis suits.
anything under a template has hurt kroot quite a lot.

Basically, the only big advantages tau get to play with are no consolodation into a new squad after combat, (yeah, so i have to let a squad die before i get to use something to my advantage...) and pathfinder devilfish being open to other squads.

Tau suffer from bad list design. its an inherent flaw from day one and its only exaccerabted with 2 editions of the game and numerous design philosophy shifts and has not been worked on in the mean time. yes, i have found ways to work with tau in 5th, but they are nowhere near as effective as other armies, especially at a competitive level. look at the tournament results. tau as an army are basically shelved when it comes to tourney play.


and everyone saying that tau "only need a small bit of work", and only a few new models/rules is totally missing the point.

we need new SCs. itself an endeavor.
We need better commanders. our shas commander is nought but a bs5 elite who does nothing else, with access to gimmicky and shoddy wargear that does nothing. our etherial is even worse.
Our shooty elites just dont put out the hurt, especially compared to shooty elites of other armies. and ours are far more vulnerable and important.
Our troops are weak, easy to kill and lack power.

Furthermore, the attitude up until now has been to give now "new" equipment and stuff. sniper drones, vespids and skyrays are shoddy and worthless and no one with any sense puts any faith in them. they add nothing. similarly, for an army that is supposed to fight at range, and hold its enemy at arms length, its odd that tau seemt o be most effective within 12" (rapid firing range).
Its odd that a long range army has inspired numerous comments on warseer along the lines of "how can you see the tau to be anything other than a short range shooty army like sisters of battle?" :rolleyes:
Similarly are comments that tau should not be static and should be "more" mobile. Im sorry but if you want a more mobile army, play eldar. because that is where "more" mobile will go. tau mobility is about redeployment and is beyond the 40k scale for the most part. you know, the manta will drop the squads off at a position, and withdraw, the lads will make the kill until the enemy get to close and then they pull back and redeploy. like the fight at the mine in IAV3.

but GW's tau onthe tabletop do not fight like this.

And thats a shame. there is a niche for the tau, and there are ways to change the tau to allow me, as aplayer, to play them as they should be played, instead of forcing me to get close and rapid fire, which is suicide. tau need to be reworked with an element of mobility, yes, but also an ability to fight from a held position (static-y), and they need to be reworked (change some weapon stats, mainly) so that im not punished for holding back.

Similarly, in terms of tau models, and just off the top of my head:
fire warriors need to be remoulded, especially the legs.
crisis suits need to be reworked. moveable knees and the FW arms and shoulder pads.
stealths need to be smaller, lither, and more ninja-y, and not like a krootox stuffed into a suit.:rolleyes:
broadsides need to be put into plastic.
pirahna is ugly. at least give me the tx-42 upgrade.
vespids need to have better models if they are to stay.
etherials need to be redone. im sorry but having a religious icon modeled like a jock doing exercises with barbells is not a good model.

tau need a lot of work, and an update will just leave tau lacking for another 5 years. they need a full, complete, and total overhaul.

El'Flashman
14-08-2009, 15:22
I'm sorry but you must be on a completely different wavelength to most other Tau players Deadnight. I know the Tau codex isn't a top tier tournament army but TBH it never was because of the complete lack of decent C/C. However 5th has been more of a boon than a curse for Tau.


Mainly because in 4th, tau relied on SMF as their main, and only tactic.

SMF wasn't really a tactic it was a benefit but I'd gladly exchange that for the exceedingly sick and dirt cheap Disruption Pod. That and all vehicles increased survivability was a boost for Tau.


But on the whole, vehicular firepower has suffered.

I'll admit the vehicular speed has gone but TBH that's the same for all vehicles and it's not unique to Tau. The Firepowers still there you just have to be a little more careful with your placement.


the increase in speed of various units has hurt tau severely.

Undeniably this has made our life a little more difficult but I can't say it's been crippling. The most difficult change I've had to face was the addition of outflank which can really ruin your day.


the increase in the lethality of cc has hurt tau severely (casualties = ld mod, assaulting with frags mean you strike at initiative).

We've always sucked at C/C saying we've got even worse doesn't even make any sense. The only unit that's hurt by that is arguably the Kroot.


true LOS has severely hurt crisis suits.

I'll admit they're more vulnerable but with Shield Drones they can still suck up a surprising amount of Firepower before going down. And TBH not having people moan about not being able shoot them because I JSJ has made my gaming life a lot better.


anything under a template has hurt kroot quite a lot.

And it didn't before? How is it any worse than for other armies, the blast template thing is crazy now. With a HH and some pathfinders I've got BS5 subs with little or no cover. The applications of which are great. Shifting enemies from cover. Hitting Orks behind a Grot screen. The template changes are a massive boost.


Basically, the only big advantages tau get to play with are no consolodation into a new squad after combat, (yeah, so i have to let a squad die before i get to use something to my advantage...)

Because they wouldn't have got munched before? At least now you won't have C/C units marching up your gunline after one fight. Being able to rapidfire and/or template the survivors is a massive boon.


and pathfinder devilfish being open to other squads.

Don't forget how TLOS now makes the Pathfinders Marker Beacon usable. There's practically nowhere that you can't deepstrike and re-roll those scatter dice. This opens up plenty of avenues for destruction.


(People) saying that tau "only need a small bit of work", and only a few new models/rules is totally missing the point.

I think those people are only saying that in comparison to some armies they need much less work. Such as giving them a half decent C/C unit and some wargear to negate the effects of massive amounts of outflankers (Genestealers *cough*).


We need better commanders. our shas commander is nought but a bs5 elite who does nothing else, with access to gimmicky and shoddy wargear that does nothing.

Sorry how is that different from most armies? Personally I find the Positinal relay to be very usful not to mention the different weapons fits can give you anything from the infamous Ninja'O, Shield'O to the more common destructive powerhouse.


our etherial is even worse.

The Ethereal is painfully underrated. 50pts for an ability to re-roll both passed and failed leadership checks is bloody brilliant. Try using one in Planetstrike and watch how many times it'll save you from losing Battlesuits due to moral checks. Not only that but it opens up the ability to force units engaged in C/C to fail their leadership check when they lose C/C. Allowing you to return fire in your own turn and not get assaulted again.


Our shooty elites just dont put out the hurt, especially compared to shooty elites of other armies. and ours are far more vulnerable and important.

Honestly, I'm guessing this is the old BS3 complaint, try getting some markerlights. Then you're Elites will dish out dollops of pain. You also have to remember they're not one shot wonders. No unit should be able to destroy their opponents on their own.


Our troops are weak, easy to kill and lack power.

I'll admit the Troops selections are unpopular. I've never thought they were that bad but the changes in 5th have benefited them mostly. More cover, 3+ cover for Kroot in woods not to mention the ability to Outflank. Which is great to use as an interception technique. Add Kroothounds for extra hurt.


for an army that is supposed to fight at range, and hold its enemy at arms length, its odd that tau seemt o be most effective within 12" (rapid firing range).

Hah this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Tau there is. I always have to laugh at how new players fixate on the S5 30" range of the pulse rifle but anyone with any experience with Tau knows they're deadliest at short range. Which is as it should be, because it lures your opponent into a false sense of security. Drawing them closer only for you to dump massed firepower in them and wipe them out. I've done it so many times and it never gets old.

The only thing you should be doing at range is whittling your opponent down for a nice rapid fire.


tau need to be reworked with an element of mobility, yes, but also an ability to fight from a held position (static-y), and they need to be reworked (change some weapon stats, mainly) so that im not punished for holding back.

I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions regarding improving their mobility here.


Similarly, in terms of tau models, and just off the top of my head:
fire warriors need to be remoulded, especially the legs.
That won't happen. The models are fine and ought to be way down the priority list.
crisis suits need to be reworked. moveable knees and the FW arms and shoulder pads.
Agree with this but I'm not a big fan of FW stuff so I hope they come up with some new designs.
stealths need to be smaller, lither, and more ninja-y, and not like a krootox stuffed into a suit.:rolleyes:
This won't happen as they only just changed those models and the XV15's were more 'ninja' before. GW decided to make them look more like a battlesuit. If you want ninja's I suggest you get on eBay for the XV15's
broadsides need to be put into plastic.
/Agreed
pirahna is ugly. at least give me the tx-42 upgrade.
While I don't think the Pirahana is ugly, I at least think it's more consistant with the other vehicles than the TX-42. I do think their's a strong chance of the TX making an appearance in the next dex.
vespids need to have better models if they are to stay.
They also need a slightly better gun but I think plastic Vespids are likely.
etherials need to be redone. im sorry but having a religious icon modeled like a jock doing exercises with barbells is not a good model.
/agreed I'm not a fan of the currant Ethereals but TBH I don't think they're that important unless they give them some body armour like the one on the codex cover.

ragnarocker
14-08-2009, 15:55
I had a reply listed out, very similar to this one, but for whatever reason it didn't want to go through. Either way, El'flashman beat me to the punch, and I generally agree with about everything he said. Although for the record I am a big fan of the current Crisis suits and see no reason for them to be redone. Also, since El didn't do it, I'm going to have to stand up for the Firewarriors. They are by no means weak, having one of the strongest standard armaments in the game, they just lack special weapons which is how it should be. I could see them getting a slight points cost reduction, to be more in line with most other armies basic troops, but its not something that I'm completely convinced is necessary. The 30" range is still very useful, as it about guarantees they can shoot on their first turn. And the 4+ save makes a huge difference, being able to take armor saves against almost every basic weapon in the game is nothing to scoff at.

El'Flashman
14-08-2009, 16:08
Sorry I didn't stand up for the Firewarriors. Since 5th I like them usually take two in in 1500pts. I've never had any major problems with them. I usually get massive joy out of using them with PF to rapid fire at BS5. Many's the time I've obliterated a unit that way. I think an update will see them getting some nades and possibly a points reduction.

I also like the current Crisis suits. I think they get a bad press, but I do think they're gonna be the target of a re-sculpt as there's been plenty of concept work done for them. They also need flexible joints as the poses are just a little stiff at the moment.

I think if I was going to add anything to my above post it'd be to mention both how the changes in the damage tables benefit our vehicles. No longer having a Skimmer auto destruct because of an immoblised result and finding you cannot destroy a skimmer with a (non-AP1) glancing shot is great. This effectively means that a penetrating hit has about the same chance of destroying a Tau tank as a glancing hit did in 4th.

And I shouldn't forget Flechette dischargers. A bit of a novelty in 4th they're pretty damned crazy now in 5th. With them you can still move upto 12" (making strikes against a vehicle hit on a 6+), Fire one gun (with a Multitraker) and if you get assaulted your opponent takes strength 4 hits on a 4+ before they roll to hit. Now if that doesn't make your opponent think again about assaulting your vehicles nothing will.

Now that's not only a more survivable tank it's arguably a better skimmer wall than it was before.

getupandgo
14-08-2009, 16:44
How exactly are Tau "still competitive" when most of the tactics I've seen being discussed for them boil down to "Take a Mech list, sit on the objectives, and don't get out of your transports, ever"?

I have to concur.

Tau are NOT competitive currently, at least not in the way the new guard or new orks are.

They are challenging to play, much in the same way as dark eldar, and much like dark eldar, there are only a few builds that actually work. I have to denounce the whole "mech tau is the only way" meme that so many subscribe to, I think it doesn't work. Eldar do it better... much better.

I am fairly sure that i've probably placed higher in any GW tournaments than anyone else with tau in the last few years (only 2nd), and i haven't seen anyone using a mech list even come close, and i have to attribute a lot of that to particularly easy opponents in 2 of my rounds.
However, orks have been in the top 5 and 10 consistently since the new codex, and i promise that guard will be the same.

We DO need an update, albeit a small one, fixing some simple things like dismounted drones being extra KPs, etc...

Deadnight
14-08-2009, 17:23
I'm sorry but you must be on a completely different wavelength to most other Tau players Deadnight. I know the Tau codex isn't a top tier tournament army but TBH it never was because of the complete lack of decent C/C. However 5th has been more of a boon than a curse for Tau.
.

in 4th, a skimmer spam list would do really well. it was never the most powerful, but mech-tau was certainly an extremely viable list with someone who knew how to do it.

it was never about the cc. mech tau was about avoiding it, and it worked quite well.


I
SMF wasn't really a tactic it was a benefit but I'd gladly exchange that for the exceedingly sick and dirt cheap Disruption Pod. That and all vehicles increased survivability was a boost for Tau.
.

glancing hits only in 4th, with the ability to re-roll those crippling imobilised results. and moving 12" a turn and firing off everything with multi trackers was brilliant. fine, it was using the system, and not the list but it worked.
Im simply saying that the same mech list in 5th is dramatically less effective than it was in 4th. And no, im not whining. Im glad they changed it. i was sick of the same mono-philosophy in tau. 5th messed things up and we had to change. but by gimping the only viable tactic, we really have nothing to fall back on.



I'll admit the vehicular speed has gone but TBH that's the same for all vehicles and it's not unique to Tau. The Firepowers still there you just have to be a little more careful with your placement.


few other armies relied on it to the same extent as we did though. guard and marine tanks tend to sit there. and eldar and dark eldar are still quite movey and shooty.




Undeniably this has made our life a little more difficult but I can't say it's been crippling. The most difficult change I've had to face was the addition of outflank which can really ruin your day.
.

its more than "a little" mate. turn 3 assaults are now turn 2 assaults. And while tau always had problems with fast assaulty units, now said fast assaulty units are even faster. im put more on the defensive, and forced to react to what the other guy does.



We've always sucked at C/C saying we've got even worse doesn't even make any sense. The only unit that's hurt by that is arguably the Kroot.


it makes sense my good man. previous tactic with kroot was to use them as a counter punch. stick them in a forest, and when they'd be engaged, they'd strike first, or at worst at initiative. Often it gave just enough of an edge that the kroot would take something down before they got cut to pieces. Now even that slim advantage is gone with the new assault grenades. and at least in 4th, the crippling assault mods were not there. I could hold up a squad a turn or two longer quite often. Now? they turn, run, and get cut down.



I'll admit they're more vulnerable but with Shield Drones they can still suck up a surprising amount of Firepower before going down. And TBH not having people moan about not being able shoot them because I JSJ has made my gaming life a lot better.
.

i dunno. shield drones cost a lot, on top of an already expensive unit, count towards morale, and take away from the 2 weapons + multi tracker loadout that is their best option. Oh, and its funny how shield drones dont actually seem to work with the new wound allocation system. that at least needs to be looked at.



And it didn't before? How is it any worse than for other armies, the blast template thing is crazy now. With a HH and some pathfinders I've got BS5 subs with little or no cover. The applications of which are great. Shifting enemies from cover. Hitting Orks behind a Grot screen. The template changes are a massive boost.
.

auto-hits, no partials.... devestating to kroot. anyway, im just pointing out how 5th has given more punches than roses to the tau.



Because they wouldn't have got munched before? At least now you won't have C/C units marching up your gunline after one fight. Being able to rapidfire and/or template the survivors is a massive boon.


as i said, this was one of the few changes that benefited us...



Don't forget how TLOS now makes the Pathfinders Marker Beacon usable. There's practically nowhere that you can't deepstrike and re-roll those scatter dice. This opens up plenty of avenues for destruction.
.


like i said, a second advantage...



I think those people are only saying that in comparison to some armies they need much less work. Such as giving them a half decent C/C unit and some wargear to negate the effects of massive amounts of outflankers (Genestealers *cough*).


no trust me, they need a ridiculous amount of overhauling. Look, GW tackled tau with the approach that "they dont need as much work as other armies" and look what they gave us?
shoddy special characters with rip-my-eyes-out-in-frustration fluff, shoddy and ridiculous and pointless wargear, truly terrible new units in the form of the lamentable skyray, pointless and contemptible sniper drones (who are not even "snipers") and the utterly bafflingly inneffective vespids. thats what "a small bit of work" is. and the results were painful. they really really are. they added nothing to tau, and tau are still coming up short, especially against the newer codices (and before you accuse me of whining let me point out i love the new codices, bar the overblown marines fluff).



Sorry how is that different from most armies? Personally I find the Positinal relay to be very usful not to mention the different weapons fits can give you anything from the infamous Ninja'O, Shield'O to the more common destructive powerhouse.
.

i've made the argument before that, if you take, for example a Space Marine Chaplain, just by being there, he generates a useful ability (litanies of hate) IG officers have orders. Our HQ unit really does not do all that much HQing and making things fight better. he just shoots straighter than regular elites. as for the builds, meh.



The Ethereal is painfully underrated. 50pts for an ability to re-roll both passed and failed leadership checks is bloody brilliant. Try using one in Planetstrike and watch how many times it'll save you from losing Battlesuits due to moral checks. Not only that but it opens up the ability to force units engaged in C/C to fail their leadership check when they lose C/C. Allowing you to return fire in your own turn and not get assaulted again.
.

and yet you ignore what happens when he dies. you know, half the army running away and all... Fine, its fluffy, but for such a disadvantage, i want more than twin linked morale. Especially on a guy who is a living breathing and walking icon of veneration.



Honestly, I'm guessing this is the old BS3 complaint, try getting some markerlights. Then you're Elites will dish out dollops of pain. You also have to remember they're not one shot wonders. No unit should be able to destroy their opponents on their own.


actually its not the "old bs3 complaint". check my old posts. Im always the one defending bs3 suits. Fine, i'll admit i would like to see shas'vre bodyguards made into bs4. but regular squad shas'vre and shas'ui? bs3 is fine.
Im more interested in rate of fire to be honest. you know, assault 2 plasmas and the like...
I just feel that, for the "signature" tau unit, and the fact that "crisis suit" is basically tau for big fricking gun, they really are not that scary. im more terrified of obliterators to be honest.




I'll admit the Troops selections are unpopular. I've never thought they were that bad but the changes in 5th have benefited them mostly. More cover, 3+ cover for Kroot in woods not to mention the ability to Outflank. Which is great to use as an interception technique. Add Kroothounds for extra hurt.
.

Kroot came out the same in 5th from 4th. slightly better cover save, but more crippled in cc with assault g's. then you have more cover denying weapons, more morale mods etc. i used to regard them as excellent light infantry. now they're good light infantry, as much as i love them.



Hah this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Tau there is. I always have to laugh at how new players fixate on the S5 30" range of the pulse rifle but anyone with any experience with Tau knows they're deadliest at short range. Which is as it should be, because it lures your opponent into a false sense of security. Drawing them closer only for you to dump massed firepower in them and wipe them out. I've done it so many times and it never gets old.
.


"tau are deadliest at short range". :rolleyes:just the problem i was talking about.
they're only like that because of the game mechanics. in any bit of background you read (and background is extremely relevant) tau are the army that strike at you from long, to extreme range, and then pull back. I liken them to outfighters in boxing. they hold their distance, put in the long range jabs, and when you try and close the distance, they counter punch and pull out.
tau should NOT be best at short range. it goes totally against their style of fighting, and all the fluff.



The only thing you should be doing at range is whittling your opponent down for a nice rapid fire.
.

garbage, my good man. thats where tau do their killing. tau should be as comfortable shooting from 24" away as they are at 12". unfortunately we are dealing with game mechanics that dont agree with that.

I believe pulse rifles should be changed to heavy 2. and that carbines should be changed to assault 2. It came out of a discussion on another forum as to how carbines really were pointless.
But anyway, with heavy 2 rifles, i can at least engage the enemy at arms length. It adequately represents the lethal hail of fire you'd face all the way in, instead of just when you're about to engage in h2h. and its not a cripplingly huge advantage as with outflank, faster units and faster vehicles, tau are still quite engageable. and similarly, with a heavy profile, they lack mobility, crucial in a game where you have to move.
you want mobility? take the assault 2 carbines. the fluff literally says they "swap range for portability". and it gives you a ncihe for each weapon, and a clearly defined role.
Now people have said that its "unfluffy" and "static tau are unfluffy tau", but id counter by showing examples of how tau fight. a lot of good examples exist in iav3. basically at the firefight at the mines, tau moved up their troops, got them into position, attacked the guardsmen as they came in, and when the guardsmen got sufficiently close, the tau pulled their troops back to the orcas and pulled out. Nowhere there is a heavy 2 gun not unfeasible. especially as its a "move up, sieze a position, make the kill, redeploy".
the orcas show tau mobility. its tactical. its off the board. its about redeployment. its not about running around on a 6 by 4 board shooting at the hip.
and by the way, i've spoken to some playtesters about some tau things ive been thinking of, including the above, and they liked the ideas... and i know of quite a few others who have actually gone and playtested some of my ideas against bs4 fire warrios, and their general opinion was that h2/a2 weaponry was a change in the right direction, and to quote them, "it felt right".


Similarly, in terms of tau models, and just off the top of my head:
fire warriors need to be remoulded, especially the legs.
That won't happen. The models are fine and ought to be way down the priority list.
probably. its a shame really. i'd just like to see better definition on the plastics though.


crisis suits need to be reworked. moveable knees and the FW arms and shoulder pads.
Agree with this but I'm not a big fan of FW stuff so I hope they come up with some new designs.

thats a shame. i love the FW arms and shoulder pads. i do think the suit chests need to be more organic and flowing rather than the boxy way they are now.


stealths need to be smaller, lither, and more ninja-y, and not like a krootox stuffed into a suit.
This won't happen as they only just changed those models and the XV15's were more 'ninja' before. GW decided to make them look more like a battlesuit. If you want ninja's I suggest you get on eBay for the XV15's

a classic bad mistake by gw if you ask me.


vespids need to have better models if they are to stay.
They also need a slightly better gun but I think plastic Vespids are likely.

assault 3 might make them worthwhile, but as they are now? pointless. i rather convert kroot and use them as vespids.


etherials need to be redone. im sorry but having a religious icon modeled like a jock doing exercises with barbells is not a good model.
/agreed I'm not a fan of the currant Ethereals but TBH I don't think they're that important unless they give them some body armour like the one on the codex cover.
by rights, this is how they should look. regal and powerful.
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/the-protectorate-of-menoth/warcasters/hierarch-severius.png

Azzy
14-08-2009, 17:48
Tau are NOT competitive currently, at least not in the way the new guard or new orks are.

[Insert older army here] are NOT competitive currently, at least not in the way the new guard or new orks are. :p

getupandgo
14-08-2009, 17:54
no trust me, they need a ridiculous amount of overhauling. Look, GW tackled tau with the approach that "they dont need as much work as other armies" and look what they gave us?
shoddy special characters with rip-my-eyes-out-in-frustration fluff, shoddy and ridiculous and pointless wargear, truly terrible new units in the form of the lamentable skyray,


I was completely with you up until this point. The Skyray, in conjunction with pathfinders and other markerlights (which you'd be a fool not to take in 5th ed) works amazingly well.
Opponents severely under-rate it, and once the skyray gets that rear armor shot from across the board, they don't ever do it again.



As for the vespid, they did way too little and were worried about overpowering them.
Remember the outcry from marine players when Vespid came out... OH NO! AP3 guns!!!! in the WHOLE unit.

How many people do you see running them? I've seen an interesting comment on here about using them as a meta-game tactic that I've never tried, but toe-to-toe with any cc unit, or any counter-charge unit (which is what they are, but less effective than kroot), they aren't worth the points at all.

Crisis suits were completely nerfed by 5th ed. they're way too expensive now for what they can do. I only take the one required, and maybe one more for a deepstriking suicide if that.

They're definitely not feeling "elite" anymore.





Kroot came out the same in 5th from 4th. slightly better cover save, but more crippled in cc with assault g's. then you have more cover denying weapons, more morale mods etc. i used to regard them as excellent light infantry. now they're good light infantry, as much as i love them.


Have to disagree with you here too. I think that Kroot, and markerlights are the only things that actually got better for us in 5th ed. Kroot are absolutely fantastic now. flank march a squad of 20 of them, and you've got some serious damage coming the enemies way. They really do need fleet though. If the stupid eldar have it, they deserve it.


[Insert older army here] are NOT competitive currently, at least not in the way the new guard or new orks are. :p

You mean like Sisters of Battle, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, and Tyranids?

Tau are one of the least competitive codex's, of any age.

I'd say maybe only demonhunters fare worse, and they're hardly a core army.

Deadnight
14-08-2009, 18:05
I was completely with you up until this point. The Skyray, in conjunction with pathfinders and other markerlights (which you'd be a fool not to take in 5th ed) works amazingly well.
Opponents severely under-rate it, and once the skyray gets that rear armor shot from across the board, they don't ever do it again.


with all due respect, you are a fool to take it in the first place. there is no way in hell i am taking a skyray at the expense of a hammerhead or broadsides.
skyrays are basically a package of 6 seeker missiles with an engine strapped on. for 130odd pts. overpriced and ridiculously underperforming, especially when you factor in what COULD have been taken instead.

Fine if you need seeker missiles, but buy 6 of them and stick them on your other vehicles and at least then you can get a worthwhile heavy support option.



As for the vespid, they did way too little and were worried about overpowering them.
Remember the outcry from marine players when Vespid came out... OH NO! AP3 guns!!!! in the WHOLE unit.


then GW went off and made plague marines. :rolleyes:;)




How many people do you see running them? I've seen an interesting comment on here about using them as a meta-game tactic that I've never tried, but toe-to-toe with any cc unit, or any counter-charge unit (which is what they are, but less effective than kroot), they aren't worth the points at all.


they're glass cannons, basically. they have rotton range, a measly rate of fire, and a total lack of survivability once they've had their one shot of the game.



Crisis suits were completely nerfed by 5th ed. they're way too expensive now for what they can do. I only take the one required, and maybe one more for a deepstriking suicide if that.

They're definitely not feeling "elite" anymore.


pretty much. I've seen ideas for t5 suits, and bs4 suits but they just feel wrong. im a bigger fan of making them effective at medium to long range, and giving them better ROF weapons.

that said, i have weirdly found some new tactics for suits in 5th. use vehicles as mobile bunkers, and take 3 squads of 2 fireknives. you can shoot and scoot behind LOS blocking skimmers. its about the olny way they're viable if you ask me.



Have to disagree with you here too. I think that Kroot, and markerlights are the only things that actually got better for us in 5th ed. Kroot are absolutely fantastic now. flank march a squad of 20 of them, and you've got some serious damage coming the enemies way. They really do need fleet though. If the stupid eldar have it, they deserve it.

Im not disagreeing with you here. But with kroot its swings and roundabouts. they got some new advantages, and some new disadvantages. flank marching and kroothounds are nice, but I find though that despite their strengths, they are an awful lot more squishier now. and thats a shame, as i love my kroot.
as for markerlights, i still prefer the original use of them ie one hit = one weapon fired at bs5 without any cover saves. i find the new system clunky, awkward and finnicky to be honest. and it does not much help with integrating squad fire either.

Cadian144
14-08-2009, 18:11
Deadnight

Good well thought out points, however I doubt very much if we will see much of what you talked about getting changed...soon if ever. :cries: Reason being that GW will never want to give any one army any real advantage over space marines or Chaos.

we can wishlist for a new totaly revamped codex with lots of new things...but it 99% not going to happen.

We will get some things revamped, some point reductions, some new better improved weapons for suits and vehicles a new race,( minimal models) maybe a new command structure of sorts but nothing real super hardcore. .( I had heard a mixed plastics box of a new race and new improved vespids but I dont put a lot of stock in this as it would make to much sense:D Although..it would get rid of the metal vespids but...?? again see makes to much sense :wtf:)

There will be changes to unit sizes , and maybe better cheaper sheild drones with more use's..?

Again reason being is the GW fluff, that the race is new Blah blah blah....it is in growing pains, lots of trial and errror. We will get improved units but nothing we can sit back and totaly kick @$$ on every unit out there, we will still suffer from drop troops and things of that nature, not unlike Guard.

Tau has allways been a tactical army, I know it took me 8 games with them to figure out a way to make them effective. Now...granted they are harder to win with, but with a few changes they will be back to where they were, maybe marginaly better. But we will never get a super strong codex that will make all the other army commanders go " oh wow...Tau...man I dont want to fight you...I only have Marines...Tau kills us Dead" GW...aint going to make that happen...ever :p

anyway.

I would love to see the changes you refer to...as in WOW :eek:...but ...realisticaly...deep down...aint happening. we will get an improved codex, 1 new race ( as the fluff points to this a lot ..I think every dex will give us a new one) We might get some redone models, if only to thin out the metals, some points reductions, some new sheild drone uses...maybe...maybe a flyer....but if we do the model will be a long time coming, it will have to be the FW or a conversion. Not unlike a deathstrike tank for Guard its in the IG book...but a model for it is 2 -3years off minimum if ever )

So back to what others have pointed out, this rumor for a quick fix is very very likely...but will it have all the new changes we would all love to see ...no...maybe never, just little changes along the way so we can stay in the game.

oh...and as to Firewarriors getting redone as in new legs ...aint happening...if you doubt this look at the catachan IG...how many years now on those bad plastic arms ? At best we will get plastic pathfinders...maybe, but I doubt the sculpts would be radical differrnt.

Comments ?

getupandgo
14-08-2009, 18:15
with all due respect, you are a fool to take it in the first place. there is no way in hell i am taking a skyray at the expense of a hammerhead or broadsides.
skyrays are basically a package of 6 seeker missiles with an engine strapped on. for 130odd pts. overpriced and ridiculously underperforming, especially when you factor in what COULD have been taken instead.


It's not only the seeker missiles, it's the networked markerlights on a mobile platform... Trust me, they are worth it. I understand the love for the broadsides and hammerhead... i share them, but the skyray has definitely proven it's reliability to me in 5th edition.





Im not disagreeing with you here. But with kroot its swings and roundabouts. they got some new advantages, and some new disadvantages. flank marching and kroothounds are nice, but I find though that despite their strengths, they are an awful lot more squishier now. and thats a shame, as i love my kroot.
as for markerlights, i still prefer the original use of them ie one hit = one weapon fired at bs5 without any cover saves. i find the new system clunky, awkward and finnicky to be honest. and it does not much help with integrating squad fire either.

They're definitely squishy... but they're also priced accordingly... crisis suits, not so much (they're also really squishy now).

I have seen the use of crisis suits like you suggest, but i still just don't think they're effective enough for their points, and honestly, i wouldn't rely on our skimmers for cover anymore, as they're no where near as resilient than they used to be.


with all due respect, you are a fool to take it in the first place. there is no way in hell i am taking a skyray at the expense of a hammerhead or broadsides.
skyrays are basically a package of 6 seeker missiles with an engine strapped on. for 130odd pts. overpriced and ridiculously underperforming, especially when you factor in what COULD have been taken instead.



I'm not taking them in place of hammerheads and broadsides, but in addition to.
It's not only the seeker missiles, it's the networked markerlights on a mobile platform... Trust me, they are worth it. I understand the love for the broadsides and hammerhead... i share them, but the skyray has definitely proven it's reliability to me in 5th edition.





Im not disagreeing with you here. But with kroot its swings and roundabouts. they got some new advantages, and some new disadvantages. flank marching and kroothounds are nice, but I find though that despite their strengths, they are an awful lot more squishier now. and thats a shame, as i love my kroot.
as for markerlights, i still prefer the original use of them ie one hit = one weapon fired at bs5 without any cover saves. i find the new system clunky, awkward and finnicky to be honest. and it does not much help with integrating squad fire either.

They're definitely squishy... but they're also priced accordingly... crisis suits, not so much (they're also really squishy now).

I have seen the use of crisis suits like you suggest, but i still just don't think they're effective enough for their points, and honestly, i wouldn't rely on our skimmers for cover anymore, as they're no where near as resilient than they used to be.

Deadnight
14-08-2009, 18:19
I'm not taking them in place of hammerheads and broadsides, but in addition to.
.

when pathfinders can buy a skyray as a squad upgrade instead of a devilfish, and the price is no more than 100pts for a loaded up ray, i might take one in addition to the rest.

But until that day i am sorry but im not sacrificing either my 2 broadsides or the 2 hammerheads that always make up my heavy support.



They're definitely squishy... but they're also priced accordingly... crisis suits, not so much (they're also really squishy now).

I have seen the use of crisis suits like you suggest, but i still just don't think they're effective enough for their points, and honestly, i wouldn't rely on our skimmers for cover anymore, as they're no where near as resilient than they used to be.

yeah i can see that. 5pts reduction in the base cost would alleviate some of it if you ask me.

forbin
14-08-2009, 18:31
i have tau , amongst other armies, it seem to me we'll get 6th ed before tau get a change

basically I still assert that 4th ed was good but needed work and 5th is that mediocre work, hopefully 6th with be better. not forgetting GW game plan is to change the rules every so often to "freshen" up the game

Forbin

theDarkGeneral
14-08-2009, 18:37
Well, thought I'd add some "info" here...


Since my son is a huge Tau follower, as he likes to shoot daddy's poor Daemons to bitz...


A "buddy" has passed on to me, that the Tau will become a sort of "Dogs of War" type list with a few new races/upgrades being added to their lists. Not that other Armies will be able to use these units, but more mercenary style.

So the possibility of Demiurg (old style Squats), Zoats, and Nicassar being added to their current list, maybe even creating a new "sub" type similar to that of Summoned Daemons in the current Chaos Space Marines codex.

The Demiurg are to be the anvil style unit that the Tau definitely lack, with Zoats adding possible combat punch and Nicassar Pyschic abilities...

Suites will be upgraded, so the Broadsides will become much more effective, and the Crisis Battle Suites cheaper.

My "buddy" also mentioned a change in the way Marker Lights work, but gave me nothing to go with it...

Azzy
14-08-2009, 18:37
You mean like Sisters of Battle, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, and Tyranids?

I'm making fun of the comment that suggests that Tau are not as competitive as what are considered the top two power armies. It's one of those comments that make you go, "Well, no? Really?". I guess you could also say, in fact, that only Orks and IG are as competitive as Orks and IG and that the mean temperature in Anartica is not nearly as warm as that of the surface of the Sun. I think the more sensible comment would have been to say that Tau are not as competitive as the more recent (and largely 5th edition-ready) codices instead of comparing their competitiveness the two armies that seemingly most people consider to be the most powerful. :p


Tau are one of the least competitive codex's, of any age.

I've seen no consensus on that, and I have seen players of other armies claim the same about their army... so I don't put much stock into those kind of comments.


I'd say maybe only demonhunters fare worse, and they're hardly a core army.

And it's nice of you to judge which armies are core and therefore worthy of being balanced with the new crop of codices. Personally, I'm of the opinion that all armies should be on the same competitive scale as each other--not just the ones that I play.

Tau will get redone... it's just a matter of time Whether they're "more worthy" than some other army is entirely subjective, and not likely a consideration to GW as to when they'll be slotted into the release schedule.

chaos0xomega
14-08-2009, 18:59
Well, thought I'd add some "info" here...


Since my son is a huge Tau follower, as he likes to shoot daddy's poor Daemons to bitz...


A "buddy" has passed on to me, that the Tau will become a sort of "Dogs of War" type list with a few new races/upgrades being added to their lists. Not that other Armies will be able to use these units, but more mercenary style.

So the possibility of Demiurg (old style Squats), Zoats, and Nicassar being added to their current list, maybe even creating a new "sub" type similar to that of Summoned Daemons in the current Chaos Space Marines codex.

The Demiurg are to be the anvil style unit that the Tau definitely lack, with Zoats adding possible combat punch and Nicassar Pyschic abilities...

Suites will be upgraded, so the Broadsides will become much more effective, and the Crisis Battle Suites cheaper.

My "buddy" also mentioned a change in the way Marker Lights work, but gave me nothing to go with it...

Excuse me, I have to visit the doctor as I seem to have ingested a mass amount of salt. Nicassar have already been stated to be incapable of entering a gravity well, so no clue why they would be in the list. Zoats are now extinct, having been wiped out by the Imperium ages ago. Furthermore their homeworld was well out of the reach of the Tau Empire, they have become affiliated with tyranids, and well... thats just flat out wrong. And once again I assert that Demiurg are in no way shape or form squats. That is all fan speculation, while they posses the mentality of space dwarves, no physical description has ever been made of them whatsoever, and the supposed Jes Goodwin concept art was only SPECULATED to be Demiurg, for all we know it was a squat.

El'Flashman
14-08-2009, 19:10
in 4th, a skimmer spam list would do really well.

It was undeniably the best build of 4th. I can't say I'm sorry to see a more hybrid approach these days.


it was never about the cc. mech tau was about avoiding it, and it worked quite well.

Yeah but that was problem in of itself. I played a lot of people under 4th and no one was happy with Tau because of JSJ and my ability to avoid combat. At least now people have the ability to make it to combat if they play well. I find it much easier to get a game now. TBH I think Tau won't become C/C masters but I think Kroot will be changed so they're better at it.


Im simply saying that the same mech list in 5th is dramatically less effective than it was in 4th.

Yeah, but isn't less viable because of the mobility issue rather than the damage tables? With reduced mobility it means your tanks have to be supported infantry, which is both realistic from a fluff perspective and more interesting from a gaming perspective.


turn 3 assaults are now turn 2 assaults. And while tau always had problems with fast assaulty units, now said fast assaulty units are even faster. im put more on the defensive, and forced to react to what the other guy does.

Have to agree with the increased problem of C/C. I've yet to have much problem with fast C/C locally but I have to ask you. Do you not find sticking up a skimmer wall helps? I mean pirahna's are there in the list for a reason. You could even use drones for the same, maybe even better effect.



previous tactic with kroot was to use them as a counter punch. stick them in a forest, and when they'd be engaged, they'd strike first, or at worst at initiative... Now even that slim advantage is gone with the new assault grenades. and at least in 4th, the crippling assault mods were not there. I could hold up a squad a turn or two longer quite often. Now? they turn, run, and get cut down.

I must confess I almost always outflank them now. Have you tried Kroothounds perchance? I hear they're rather nasty with their I5. I don't have them in large numbers but I believe you can take upto 12 of them. They suck up the return hits and then your remainig Kroot get a second hit. They're even better when you charge.


i dunno. shield drones cost a lot, on top of an already expensive unit, count towards morale, and take away from the 2 weapons + multi tracker loadout that is their best option. Oh, and its funny how shield drones dont actually seem to work with the new wound allocation system. that at least needs to be looked at.

Well compared to GD their 5 more points for an Inv save, okay you lose a carbine but I don't think you're gonna be crying about it. I've been using them since 4th and I've always be aggresive with my CS (in 4th I used to run Helios) so I haven't found the change in LOS has altered my playstyle much.

I don't see how they hurt your 2 weapons plus MT, as I usually take only two from a hardwired drone controller. I don't have a problem with the wound allocation. Just assign the AP3 or better shots to them and take the lower Ap non-strength 8+ hits on the suits. Spread those wounds around and they suck up plenty of fire.


auto-hits, no partials.... devestating to kroot. anyway, im just pointing out how 5th has given more punches than roses to the tau.

I understand why you think this but TBH because my Kroot usually outflank they're not there to be shot. And if their in cover then I can't see how it's that bad.


as i said, this was one of the few changes that benefited us...

I must have missed you saying that then.


like i said, a second advantage...

And that...


shoddy special characters with rip-my-eyes-out-in-frustration fluff

I'm pretty sure I codex matched everything that was out at the time. as far as SC and fluff was concerned. Admittedly the newer codices are nicer but there's no need to blow this out of proportion.


shoddy and ridiculous and pointless wargear,

There's only two pieces of war gear that were arguable bad. The C&C node and the CIB. The other's fulfil niche roles with the army book which with clever list building you can make some use of.


truly terrible new units in the form of the lamentable skyray, pointless and contemptible sniper drones (who are not even "snipers") and the utterly bafflingly inneffective vespids.

*Sigh* I really don't wanna sound like I'm arguing here because really I more or less agree with you. I just don't understand the vehemence of your posts. The Skyray isn't as good as it could be or indeed it should be. I hope it gets S9 Seeker Missiles personally but that's just me. It does however have two Markerlights which count as defensive weapons so it's technically the most mobile tank in our arsenal right now.

The sniper drones are good. I think S6 and Ap 3 is better than an AP6 rending weapon. They're also stealth, can split fire and have a markerlight which is pretty damned good.

I agree the Vespid suck. Assault 2 is how I'd improve them. I'd also make them rending in C/C. Other than that they require too much attention with markerlights so you're better off taking more battlesuits or even Firewarriors. However their movement is pretty damned good and if you combine them with battlesuits and take into account their skilled flyer ability they're not 'terrible' just difficult to get the best out of.


they added nothing to tau, and tau are still coming up short

You are aware the last codex was a sort of 'fix' and people were still crying tears of blood that we got one before (insert your favourite army here)? I'd much rather have that shoddy codex than the 3rd edition one we had before. I really think you need to get things in perspective. Okay the codex isn't as nice or indeed effective as some of the newer codices but when we get one we all know it's gonna be hot.


i've made the argument before that, if you take, for example a Space Marine Chaplain, just by being there, he generates a useful ability (litanies of hate) IG officers have orders.

The Chap had that before 5th though didn't he? I agree I'd like to see HQ's do more 'commanding' but it's hardly a unique problem for Tau and we know it'll most likely change.


Our HQ unit really does not do all that much HQing and making things fight better. he just shoots straighter than regular elites. as for the builds, meh.

I dunno my Shield'O HQ can suck up a lot of Firepower with IA (2+) and stimulant injectors. I've never had cause to complain especially when other units are diricting fire at him. I can't say I use Ninja'O's but I think they're unarguably useful. With Stims, IA and even a Sheild generator and some drones you can potentially either hold up a C/C unit or interfer with a 'shooty' unit in the back field. Personally I'm quite fond of my BS5 AfP dropping monster.




and yet you ignore what happens when he dies. you know, half the army running away and all... Fine, its fluffy, but for such a disadvantage, i want more than twin linked morale.

I'm not ignoring that I'm saying you should be trying it. In the few games I've had of Planet strike I've found the re-roll literally life saving. Especially when you consider that you make you 3D6" run towards the nearest board edge. Whenever I've not taken him I've regretted it. And if you're smart you can shift the Aun from unit to unit and give him a fresh batch of meatshields to protect him if you find he comes under fire.




Im more interested in rate of fire to be honest. you know, assault 2 plasmas and the like...

Hmmm... I can't say I'm looking for that. It may happen. I'd think that there's a chance you could make CS overpowered if you go down that route. Better to make them tougher and/or cheaper. My understanding was they were just supposed to fill the gap in the Tau arsenal by providing the heavy weapons. In this respect they're fine IMO.


tau should NOT be best at short range. it goes totally against their style of fighting, and all the fluff.

Well that's your opinion. I think the fluff suggests they don't like C/C. If you look at all their weaponry most of it is less than 36" range which suggests that they prefer to see the whites of their enemies eyes before they shoot them. As it stands I'm quite happy with how things work. My shooting gets more not less effective as my opponent closes and with RF PR's I do still have a degree of mobility. I would agree that the carbine needs to be assault2, but I think I'd prefer the PR to be a rapid fire weapon.


garbage, my good man. thats where tau do their killing. tau should be as comfortable shooting from 24" away as they are at 12". unfortunately we are dealing with game mechanics that dont agree with that.

And other players... I like having good short range shooting. There's nothing 'garbage' about that. That's your opinion. All our weaponry however does have relatively short range. As an agressive 'Vior'la' Tau I like to get up close and personal. ;)


by rights, this is how they should look. regal and powerful.
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/the-protectorate-of-menoth/warcasters/hierarch-severius.png

Wow I'm really not a fan of PP's stuff. I like their art work but never their models. I liked the original style of the Aun's TBH and would like them to return to that but it's not a high priority for me. Maybe give them some armour and make the honour blades rending other than that a slight tweak to what the Tau do when they die to better represent the fluff. Make them all relentless but at the end of a turn on the roll of a one they run out of ammo. That sort of thing.

static grass
14-08-2009, 19:11
Well, thought I'd add some "info" here...


Since my son is a huge Tau follower, as he likes to shoot daddy's poor Daemons to bitz...


A "buddy" has passed on to me, that the Tau will become a sort of "Dogs of War" type list with a few new races/upgrades being added to their lists. Not that other Armies will be able to use these units, but more mercenary style.

So the possibility of Demiurg (old style Squats), Zoats, and Nicassar being added to their current list, maybe even creating a new "sub" type similar to that of Summoned Daemons in the current Chaos Space Marines codex.

The Demiurg are to be the anvil style unit that the Tau definitely lack, with Zoats adding possible combat punch and Nicassar Pyschic abilities...

Suites will be upgraded, so the Broadsides will become much more effective, and the Crisis Battle Suites cheaper.

My "buddy" also mentioned a change in the way Marker Lights work, but gave me nothing to go with it...


The problem is these rumours are exactly the same as the ones before the last codex was released.

The irony of more merc units is that they dilute the Tau-ness of the army and that as a rule non-Tau units are quite unpopular. The second part could change though :)

Firaxin
14-08-2009, 19:47
You really don't know that at all. There is very little fluff publsihed about Tarellians at the moment, what is known is that they are aggressive, hate humans, are shorter than a human, have a narrow waist, broad shoulders, and look reptilian.
Note: aggressive. A group of Tarellians try to bully the Last Chancers out of their seats at a bar on pg 473 of the Omnibus. Of course, the Last Chancers aren't pushovers, so this starts a brawl. Orks & Tarellians vs Humans and Kroot. From the description of the brawl, the Tarellians aren't strangers to hand-to-hand, either.


Additionally the name dog soldier...
Pfft. It doesn't have to be nearly that complicated...
Pg 473, "...with long canine-like faces, which is why we call them dog soldiers."


Where is that sourced from?
The only 3 Demiurg/Tau or Demiurg/Kroot fleets is pg 109 of BFG Armada. To be honest I have no idea where the 2 Brotherhoods information is, it was in an article online by Jervis... or maybe Andy... and I haven't been able to find it since they changed the site.


And why only 2 ships? I thought a Brotherhood was an entire fleet, but in possession of only of the large vessels?
Because BFG Armada describes two Demiurg ship types. The only occasionally sighted Bastion-class cruiser is crewed by a single brotherhood. The other type is the even rarer Stronghold-class Battleship (Commerce Vessel), which is typically crewed by two or three brotherhoods. Both figures are found on Pg 111 of the Armada rulebook. Thus, the two brotherhoods could only provide two separate Bastion-class ships or one Stronghold-class ship.


Our troops are weak, easy to kill and lack power.
:rolleyes: Maybe you should play a game or two with Imperial Guard, or, it pains me to think it, Tyranids...


Its odd that a long range army has inspired numerous comments on warseer along the lines of "how can you see the tau to be anything other than a short range shooty army like sisters of battle?" :rolleyes:
Tau have never ever ever ever ever in any incarnation of the fluff or rules been a particularly long range army. Yes, they like and are good at fighting at longer ranges, but Imperial Guard have always been even longer ranged.


guard and marine tanks tend to sit there.
Are you kidding? I moved my Guard tanks almost every turn in 4th. Now, with the new LOS rules and the neat hull-down rule for staying in cover, I hardly ever move them.


its more than "a little" mate. turn 3 assaults are now turn 2 assaults.
Personally, I'd rather have Turn2 Assault, Turn3 Shoot, Turn4 Assault, Turn5 Shoot, Turn6 Assault, than Turn3-6 Assault. The way it works now, you can stop them in turn 3 rather than never.
:angel:


i dunno. shield drones cost a lot, on top of an already expensive unit, count towards morale, and take away from the 2 weapons + multi tracker loadout that is their best option.
Not sure I understand this complaint. Can't multi-trackers and drone controllers both be taken as hard-wired, so they don't take up any battlesuit equipment slots? And the drone controller is free on top of the multi-tracker?


i've made the argument before that, if you take, for example a Space Marine Chaplain, just by being there, he generates a useful ability (litanies of hate) IG officers have orders. Our HQ unit really does not do all that much HQing and making things fight better. he just shoots straighter than regular elites. as for the builds, meh.
I've come up with various Space Marine and Imperial Guard Order style advantages for Tau commanders, but everywhere I've taken them I've been scoffed at by people who "don't want half the Imperial Guard codex copy&pasted into my 'dex" before they've even looked at what I came up with. So while I agree with you here, I don't really see support for this among the fanbase.


Especially on a guy who is a living breathing and walking icon of veneration.
Like half the things in Imperial armies... I don't see Space Marines getting super advantages just because a Dreadnought is present, or Guardsmen getting super advantages because space marines are present, or Techpriests getting super advantages because vehicles are present, and so forth...


I just feel that, for the "signature" tau unit, and the fact that "crisis suit" is basically tau for big fricking gun, they really are not that scary. im more terrified of obliterators to be honest.
Wait... you expect Battlesuits to have more firepower than Obliterators? :wtf:


But anyway, with heavy 2 rifles, i can at least engage the enemy at arms length. It adequately represents the lethal hail of fire you'd face all the way in, instead of just when you're about to engage in h2h.
You know, I'm sure Guardsmen wish they had access to 24" Heavy 2 lasguns too, to accurately represent the lethal hail of fire they can pour at a charging horde all the way in, instead of just when they're about to engage in hand-to-hand. :rolleyes:

There's this little thing called accuracy to consider. There's a huge difference between being able to accurately hit a target at long range on single shot, and being able to group all your shots on target in burst mode at long range.


and its not a cripplingly huge advantage
*whispers* It's broken. ;)

Assault 2 Carbines are fine.


and by the way, i've spoken to some playtesters about some tau things ive been thinking of, including the above, and they liked the ideas... and i know of quite a few others who have actually gone and playtested some of my ideas against bs4 fire warrios, and their general opinion was that h2/a2 weaponry was a change in the right direction, and to quote them, "it felt right".
If you really are in contact with the official playtesters, suggest this rule to them that I made for my 5th ed Tau codex:

"Rapid Embarkation: Any Tau infantry unit that did not move in the movement phase may immediately embark into a Devilfish in base contact with the squad at the end of the Shooting Phase, after firing their weapons."

It makes them mobile in exactly the way they do it in the fluff, and without simply making them faster hip-shooting eldar-types. It also allows them to get off an extra turn of shooting (thus providing your 'lethal hail of fire') before clambering to safety from an assault/redeploying, without being totally cheesy because a truly dedicated assault unit (like a monstrous creature, meltabomb/gun equipped assault marines, thunderhammer terminators, etc) will often be able to simply charge/shoot the Devilfish and kill that instead, so it's really only advantageous against units that are charging you simply because you're Tau or to tie you up (like guardsmen, tyranids below genestealer-level, kroot, scarabs, etc).


assault 3 might make them worthwhile, but as they are now? pointless. i rather convert kroot and use them as vespids.
So... you're asking for a jump infantry unit that puts out 33 Str5 AP3 shots, and you're not even sure that'll be enough for you?


Tau are NOT competitive currently, at least not in the way the new guard or new orks are.

They are challenging to play, much in the same way as dark eldar, and much like dark eldar, there are only a few builds that actually work.
<snip>
You mean like Sisters of Battle, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, and Tyranids?
Yes, exactly like them. As you said yourself, they are challenging to play, particularly because there are only 1 or 2 builds that actually work with them, and everything else fails miserably. That doesn't any of them (including Tau) uncompetitive. Again, you said yourself you got 2nd place, all it took was *gasp* to re-think the tried and true 4th ed strategy rut that Tau players have fallen into (not that I'm belittling your achievement; congrats by the way)

Tau don't have it that hard off, they don't need a codex that badly.

Deadnight
14-08-2009, 20:30
It was undeniably the best build of 4th. I can't say I'm sorry to see a more hybrid approach these days.
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yup, im in the same boat.



Yeah but that was problem in of itself. I played a lot of people under 4th and no one was happy with Tau because of JSJ and my ability to avoid combat. At least now people have the ability to make it to combat if they play well. I find it much easier to get a game now. TBH I think Tau won't become C/C masters but I think Kroot will be changed so they're better at it.
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you never faced "nike lords" then, did you? chaos lord, LCs, infiltrate and d.speed. first turn charge. :D



Yeah, but isn't less viable because of the mobility issue rather than the damage tables? With reduced mobility it means your tanks have to be supported infantry, which is both realistic from a fluff perspective and more interesting from a gaming perspective.
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reduced weight of fire factors into it as well. i used to have 18 BC shots a turn with my 3 hammerheads, alongside the 3 rails.



Have to agree with the increased problem of C/C. I've yet to have much problem with fast C/C locally but I have to ask you. Do you not find sticking up a skimmer wall helps? I mean pirahna's are there in the list for a reason. You could even use drones for the same, maybe even better effect.
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i've heard of it, but it just feels like you're using a loophole in the rules to be honest. anyway, i hate pirahnas. i think they're *****.




I must confess I almost always outflank them now. Have you tried Kroothounds perchance? I hear they're rather nasty with their I5. I don't have them in large numbers but I believe you can take upto 12 of them. They suck up the return hits and then your remainig Kroot get a second hit. They're even better when you charge.



i've used them and i have found them effective to middling to target practice when they outflank.



Well compared to GD their 5 more points for an Inv save, okay you lose a carbine but I don't think you're gonna be crying about it. I've been using them since 4th and I've always be aggresive with my CS (in 4th I used to run Helios) so I haven't found the change in LOS has altered my playstyle much.

I don't see how they hurt your 2 weapons plus MT, as I usually take only two from a hardwired drone controller. I don't have a problem with the wound allocation. Just assign the AP3 or better shots to them and take the lower Ap non-strength 8+ hits on the suits. Spread those wounds around and they suck up plenty of fire.
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ah, my apologies, i thought you were referring to giving ALL suits SDs... personally id be happier if marker drones and rail rifle drones were spread throughout the list more and that fire warriors and suits could take 'em...



I'm pretty sure I codex matched everything that was out at the time. as far as SC and fluff was concerned. Admittedly the newer codices are nicer but there's no need to blow this out of proportion.


oh god no! trust me, even then what tau got was a laugh compared to what others had. you had the space pope competing against abaddon, typhus, kharn, old eldrad....



There's only two pieces of war gear that were arguable bad. The C&C node and the CIB. The other's fulfil niche roles with the army book which with clever list building you can make some use of.
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bar the PR i thought everything was a laughable attempt to give tau gubbinz, especially compared to what everyone else got to play with.



*Sigh* I really don't wanna sound like I'm arguing here because really I more or less agree with you. I just don't understand the vehemence of your posts. The Skyray isn't as good as it could be or indeed it should be. I hope it gets S9 Seeker Missiles personally but that's just me. It does however have two Markerlights which count as defensive weapons so it's technically the most mobile tank in our arsenal right now.

The sniper drones are good. I think S6 and Ap 3 is better than an AP6 rending weapon. They're also stealth, can split fire and have a markerlight which is pretty damned good.

I agree the Vespid suck. Assault 2 is how I'd improve them. I'd also make them rending in C/C. Other than that they require too much attention with markerlights so you're better off taking more battlesuits or even Firewarriors. However their movement is pretty damned good and if you combine them with battlesuits and take into account their skilled flyer ability they're not 'terrible' just difficult to get the best out of.
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i dont think the skyray should even be in the list to be honest. i'd rather units got access to "skyray support" for x amounts of pts that let them get seeker missiles that did not need to be strapped onto vehicles.
and sniper drones are terrible. horrible unit. wrong slot. horrendously ugly. messy to use. expensive. take the rail rifle drones and integrate them into the rest of the list, and get rid of the entry altogether.



You are aware the last codex was a sort of 'fix' and people were still crying tears of blood that we got one before (insert your favourite army here)? I'd much rather have that shoddy codex than the 3rd edition one we had before. I really think you need to get things in perspective. Okay the codex isn't as nice or indeed effective as some of the newer codices but when we get one we all know it's gonna be hot.
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yes, indeed i am aware of its status as an "update" rather than a "new" codex. hence my vehemence at the notion that tau just need another "brief update" considering how much of a balls GW made of their last attempt.



The Chap had that before 5th though didn't he? I agree I'd like to see HQ's do more 'commanding' but it's hardly a unique problem for Tau and we know it'll most likely change.
.

and that is all im asking for.



I dunno my Shield'O HQ can suck up a lot of Firepower with IA (2+) and stimulant injectors. I've never had cause to complain especially when other units are diricting fire at him. I can't say I use Ninja'O's but I think they're unarguably useful. With Stims, IA and even a Sheild generator and some drones you can potentially either hold up a C/C unit or interfer with a 'shooty' unit in the back field. Personally I'm quite fond of my BS5 AfP dropping monster.
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stim packs remind too much of combat drugs. if you ask me its a really unfluffy upgrade. Now if suits got FNP through "smart armour" that repaired itself like the choppers in Soviet/Nuclear strike, i'd be much happier.



Hmmm... I can't say I'm looking for that. It may happen. I'd think that there's a chance you could make CS overpowered if you go down that route. Better to make them tougher and/or cheaper. My understanding was they were just supposed to fill the gap in the Tau arsenal by providing the heavy weapons. In this respect they're fine IMO.

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we're in disagreement here. i think they should stay fragile and few, but what they can put out should increase.



Well that's your opinion. I think the fluff suggests they don't like C/C. If you look at all their weaponry most of it is less than 36" range which suggests that they prefer to see the whites of their enemies eyes before they shoot them. As it stands I'm quite happy with how things work. My shooting gets more not less effective as my opponent closes and with RF PR's I do still have a degree of mobility. I would agree that the carbine needs to be assault2, but I think I'd prefer the PR to be a rapid fire weapon.
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scale, my good man. if we played games according to "real" ranges, you'd need a tennis court, not a 6' by 4'. fluff suggests they dont like cc, and that they hold back. it specififcally mentions long range as well.
read IA3. it gives a very good account of their style of fighting.



And other players... I like having good short range shooting. There's nothing 'garbage' about that. That's your opinion. All our weaponry however does have relatively short range. As an agressive 'Vior'la' Tau I like to get up close and personal. ;)
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i have no problem with short range shooting. i have a problem with an army that is supposed to favour "long range" excelling up close and personal. it does not make sense.



Wow I'm really not a fan of PP's stuff. I like their art work but never their models. I liked the original style of the Aun's TBH and would like them to return to that but it's not a high priority for me. Maybe give them some armour and make the honour blades rending other than that a slight tweak to what the Tau do when they die to better represent the fluff. Make them all relentless but at the end of a turn on the roll of a one they run out of ammo. That sort of thing.

old etherials looked like they were calling in aircraft, and the other one looked constipated. Im a fan of giving them "leadership powers". Not really like orders, but they can inspire tau to go above and beyond, you know.

eg "do not falter, brothers!!" a tau unit within 12" gets FNP for a turn.



Maybe you should play a game or two with Imperial Guard, or, it pains me to think it, Tyranids...

im just saying, mate. anyway, those guardsmen and tyranids get quite a few more bodies than my tau do.



Tau have never ever ever ever ever in any incarnation of the fluff or rules been a particularly long range army. Yes, they like and are good at fighting at longer ranges, but Imperial Guard have always been even longer ranged.

never said they were "the only" long range army, but please, go off and read the codex. read IAV3. tau have ALWAYS been a long range army. on taros they were often fighting at ranges that were almost BVR.


I've come up with various Space Marine and Imperial Guard Order style advantages for Tau commanders, but everywhere I've taken them I've been scoffed at by people who "don't want half the Imperial Guard codex copy&pasted into my 'dex" before they've even looked at what I came up with. So while I agree with you here, I don't really see support for this among the fanbase.

im not gone on giving them "orders", or "order clones" TBH, but some useful tactical abilites (perhaps based on mont'ka - focussing fire, and kauyon) would be nice, and not a complete rip off.


Like half the things in Imperial armies... I don't see Space Marines getting super advantages just because a Dreadnought is present, or Guardsmen getting super advantages because space marines are present, or Techpriests getting super advantages because vehicles are present, and so forth...

a dreadnought is just an honoured battle brother at the end of the day. an etherial? lets not forget the symbolic meaning to the tau. they're far more than a preacher to an IG soldier. to a tau an etherial is the living breathing walking physical incarnation of everything they believe in.


Wait... you expect Battlesuits to have more firepower than Obliterators?
or an equivelant. im dealing with one of the few "elites" in the game that is bs3. and i think i've made the case that as the signature unit in an army famed for "awesome firepower" and "obliterating their enemies with their awesome firepower" really is kinda lacklustre.



You know, I'm sure Guardsmen wish they had access to 24" Heavy 2 lasguns too, to accurately represent the lethal hail of fire they can pour at a charging horde all the way in, instead of just when they're about to engage in hand-to-hand.

:rolleyes: it makes sense with tau, trust me.


There's this little thing called accuracy to consider. There's a huge difference between being able to accurately hit a target at long range on single shot, and being able to group all your shots on target in burst mode at long range.

relevance? anyway, you're forgetting this is what tau do. long range is where they prefer to engage. And i like the notion of a game mechanic that does not punish me for staying at arms length from my opponent.



Quote and its not a cripplingly huge advantage
*whispers* It's broken.

with the increase in speed, numbers, outflank, assaulting after DSing (demons, vanguard) and artillery and other heavy long range fire, its not that they're unengageable. id say something if fire warriors had a 72" gun, but its 30".


If you really are in contact with the official playtesters, suggest this rule to them that I made for my 5th ed Tau codex:

"Rapid Embarkation: Any Tau infantry unit that did not move in the movement phase may immediately embark into a Devilfish in base contact with the squad at the end of the Shooting Phase, after firing their weapons."

It makes them mobile in exactly the way they do it in the fluff, and without simply making them faster hip-shooting eldar-types. It also allows them to get off an extra turn of shooting (thus providing your 'lethal hail of fire') before clambering to safety from an assault/redeploying, without being totally cheesy because a truly dedicated assault unit (like a monstrous creature, meltabomb/gun equipped assault marines, thunderhammer terminators, etc) will often be able to simply charge/shoot the Devilfish and kill that instead, so it's really only advantageous against units that are charging you simply because you're Tau or to tie you up (like guardsmen, tyranids below genestealer-level, kroot, scarabs, etc).


you know, i like the idea... but you'd have to have the fishes **** parked right up to the fire warriors, and its a very tempting target to send a rocket up its av10 tailpipe. second problem is even if they re-embark, they cant really go anywhere. they're just sitting there waiting for the other guy to shoot.
but fair play. like i said, i like the idea.


So... you're asking for a jump infantry unit that puts out 33 Str5 AP3 shots, and you're not even sure that'll be enough for you?

well, make them 3pts each, give them a 2+ armour save and then i might be happy. :D



Yes, exactly like them. As you said yourself, they are challenging to play, particularly because there are only 1 or 2 builds that actually work with them, and everything else fails miserably. That doesn't any of them (including Tau) uncompetitive. Again, you said yourself you got 2nd place, all it took was *gasp* to re-think the tried and true 4th ed strategy rut that Tau players have fallen into (not that I'm belittling your achievement; congrats by the way)

therein lies the problem. you say it yourself-one or two builds. look at the new marines, guard or orks. they have dozens of killy army builds. i have one. that deserves a look. and yer man getting 2nd is odd (fair play to him though) as i've looked through lots of tournament results and tau are typically well down the list....


Tau don't have it that hard off, they don't need a codex that badly.

sigh. yes they do. more importantly, they need it to be done right. Keep Hoare away from the damned thing!

Lowmans
14-08-2009, 20:42
@ Taipan: For the very reasons that you mentioned (except the wish listing parts) make this rumor seem more plausible. Because the Tau are competitive and need little work they make and ideal candidate as a filler codex. By this I mean it allows GW to releaqse a codex that requires little work while being able to focus on Dex's such as Inquisition and DE that need alot of work.

@ Lowmans: As I pointed out to Taipan, this makes perfect sense to release Tau. It gives GW breathing room to give DE and Necrons the justice they deserve. I know its been a long wait for these two dex's, but I'd prefer a couple of delays compared to a rushed and broken codex with only half the models available at release.

Hope what I said made sense. While it's disappointing that DE aren't out yet, if they start doing the easier dex's now, it only gives GW more time to do them properly.

Patience my Padawans, Patience. Revealed, all will be.

Cheers,
Rom


Erm..... "breathing room" Exactly how much breathing room do you think they need? DE would have to be a masterpiece for the 'breathing room' there has been! A 'rushed and broken codex' would at least mean that DE players hadn't been sold down the river like Squats!

P.S. I'm not particularly buying this Tau thing. I think Necrons, Nids, Inquisition in some form and probably Blood Angels are likely to hit us first..... And...... cos I'm still hoping.... DE.

Not sure why some people are saying the NEED new SC. No army should NEED SC to work..... sure, they add fluff and are interesting but NEED!?

Mudkip
14-08-2009, 20:56
Wow there is some serious omnislashing going on here. When no standards of good discussion are enforced you see posts of the sort you see on this page.

I am also seeing the OP as wish-listing. At most I'd accept they could be ideas being batted around the development team for a codex that hasn't even started development.

Firaxin
14-08-2009, 21:54
stim packs remind too much of combat drugs. if you ask me its a really unfluffy upgrade. Now if suits got FNP through "smart armour" that repaired itself like the choppers in Soviet/Nuclear strike, i'd be much happier.
I thought of doing something like that, but then I realized if I removed the word 'Tau' from the description, I'd think it was talking about some sort of Necron weapon system. :p


eg "do not falter, brothers!!" a tau unit within 12" gets FNP for a turn.
That's exactly how I did it in my codex. Well... actually, I just made every Tau unit within 12" have FNP. They're all gonna run away when he dies, after all. :angel:


never said they were "the only" long range army, but please, go off and read the codex. read IAV3. tau have ALWAYS been a long range army. on taros they were often fighting at ranges that were almost BVR.
Again, I agree, they've always been a long range army. That does not make them the best long range army, or even the longest ranged army. But that's for a different thread.


a dreadnought is just an honoured battle brother at the end of the day. an etherial? lets not forget the symbolic meaning to the tau. they're far more than a preacher to an IG soldier. to a tau an etherial is the living breathing walking physical incarnation of everything they believe in.
An Ethereal is just the mind-control assisted ruling class at the end of the day. :rolleyes: To a space marine, a dreadnought is the (semi-)living/breathing physical incarnation of the martial perfection and wisdom that they all hope to one day match and are constantly striving for. Like a Living Saint for the non-pious.

I'm just making a point though, after all I'm the guy who thought it would be okay for an Ethereal to make every Tau unit within 12" FNP... :angel:


or an equivelant. im dealing with one of the few "elites" in the game that is bs3. and i think i've made the case that as the signature unit in an army famed for "awesome firepower" and "obliterating their enemies with their awesome firepower" really is kinda lacklustre.
To be honest, short of the Lascannon/Plasmacannon/Multi-melta, a Battlesuit can match or actually exceed an Obliterator's per-turn firepower, (provided the battlesuit takes two weapons & a multi-tracker), and is more mobile to boot. It's just the ability to switch weapons (plus the 24"+ ones like the multi-melta, lascannon, and plasmacannon) that makes them so scary. And you have to take the suit's mobility into account; an Obliterator can't match an autocannon+plasma gun that moves 12" per turn.

Hmm. Well it would have to be done by giving them more range/strength/accuracy/shots rather than extra weapons, because they can't morph between guns when the feel like it... unless their weapons were constructed from nanites that could rearrange themselves on a whim into whatever weapon type they need, ala Old Man's War... Wait! That's Necrons again. :p

I agree they should be improved, I just took the lazy way out and made Shas'vre BS4 and made the weapons cheaper and stuff.


relevance?
The relevance is that the Rapid Fire rule exists for a reason. The way you'd have it, Rapid Fire wouldn't exist and all weapons would either be assault or heavy.


with the increase in speed, numbers, outflank, assaulting after DSing (demons, vanguard) and artillery and other heavy long range fire, its not that they're unengageable. id say something if fire warriors had a 72" gun, but its 30".
*shrug* I suppose it's one way to fix the problem, I just don't think it's very imaginative, or even fun for the players. I mean, the Tau codex already advocates ignoring close combat, now you want to encourage players to not do anything in the movement phase, too? Sure, the battlesuits still move, but... Meh.


you know, i like the idea... but you'd have to have the fishes **** parked right up to the fire warriors, and its a very tempting target to send a rocket up its av10 tailpipe.
Oh, not even. Since they only have to be in base contact, they can be touching the front of the thing rather than its ****. Or, you could just do it the old fashioned way and plonk it down in front of them, fish of fury style.


second problem is even if they re-embark, they cant really go anywhere. they're just sitting there waiting for the other guy to shoot.
It has to be balanced somehow. Note that next turn you can move the 'fish, disembark, and shoot again, without the usual turn spent not firing as you move. Like JSJ for infantry. So it has other applications than just protecting you from an assault.


therein lies the problem. you say it yourself-one or two builds. look at the new marines, guard or orks. they have dozens of killy army builds. i have one. that deserves a look.
I wasn't comparing them to marines/IG/orks, though, I was comparing them to the other codeci to point out that the Tau hardly need it the most. We could go into the problems with some of the other codeci and why they're worse off, but that would be too far off topic.

nathonicus
14-08-2009, 22:20
Hey guys, maybe you should start PM'ing each other your walls of text on what the Tau should or should not be, and leave this space open for actual discussion of the OP's rumours. ;)

Deadnight
14-08-2009, 23:02
I thought of doing something like that, but then I realized if I removed the word 'Tau' from the description, I'd think it was talking about some sort of Necron weapon system.

to a small extent, yeah. but for a HQs upgrade, i think its pretty nifty...



That's exactly how I did it in my codex. Well... actually, I just made every Tau unit within 12" have FNP. They're all gonna run away when he dies, after all. :angel:
.

id give them a bunch of powers, and they can pull one out of the bag every turn. a bit of a cross between IG orders and SoB prayers to be honest.



Again, I agree, they've always been a long range army. That does not make them the best long range army, or even the longest ranged army. But that's for a different thread.
.

quite true.



An Ethereal is just the mind-control assisted ruling class at the end of the day. :rolleyes: To a space marine, a dreadnought is the (semi-)living/breathing physical incarnation of the martial perfection and wisdom that they all hope to one day match and are constantly striving for. Like a Living Saint for the non-pious.

I'm just making a point though, after all I'm the guy who thought it would be okay for an Ethereal to make every Tau unit within 12" FNP... :angel:


yes but bob the dreadnought is not instrumental in creating the way of life of the space marines. he took a bullet in the head 500 years ago and they strapped him onto this big mechanical thingy to keep him going (god that sounds bad!)
etherials are almost living gods to the tau. that is the level of reverence you should strive to imagine.



To be honest, short of the Lascannon/Plasmacannon/Multi-melta, a Battlesuit can match or actually exceed an Obliterator's per-turn firepower, (provided the battlesuit takes two weapons & a multi-tracker), and is more mobile to boot. It's just the ability to switch weapons (plus the 24"+ ones like the multi-melta, lascannon, and plasmacannon) that makes them so scary. And you have to take the suit's mobility into account; an Obliterator can't match an autocannon+plasma gun that moves 12" per turn.


you're forgetting that suit, in a lot of cases is our only source of those special weapons. you kill an oblit, and chances are you have plenty back up lascannons. for such a fragile tau unit, their loss has a huge effect.




Hmm. Well it would have to be done by giving them more range/strength/accuracy/shots rather than extra weapons, because they can't morph between guns when the feel like it... unless their weapons were constructed from nanites that could rearrange themselves on a whim into whatever weapon type they need, ala Old Man's War... Wait! That's Necrons again. :p

I agree they should be improved, I just took the lazy way out and made Shas'vre BS4 and made the weapons cheaper and stuff.


make plasmas assault 2, replace burst cannons with ion rifles (str5 ap-whatever, 24", assault 3-4), replace flamers with heavy flamers, and maybe some new guns... just a general increase in what they put out.



The relevance is that the Rapid Fire rule exists for a reason. The way you'd have it, Rapid Fire wouldn't exist and all weapons would either be assault or heavy.

.

i've no problem with rapid fire. i just think better mechanics exist for representing what fire warriors do...



*shrug* I suppose it's one way to fix the problem, I just don't think it's very imaginative, or even fun for the players. I mean, the Tau codex already advocates ignoring close combat, now you want to encourage players to not do anything in the movement phase, too? Sure, the battlesuits still move, but... Meh.
.

i would like it to be an option. a viable option. I want it that i dont HAVE to take devilfish. i dont want mech-tau to be the ONLY choice. I want my opponents to fear a tau gunline, especially if they have to charge it. and with the increased speed of a lot of units out there, i need an increase in fire to compensate. and seriously, even if you took 6 squads of this, you'd only be handicapping yourself. how do you grab the other guy's objectives?

I'd nearly imagine a few FW squads holding back givng long range support, some other FWs moving up the flanks with more mobile covering fire, and kroot stormtroopers who advance under the FWs careful shooting...



Oh, not even. Since they only have to be in base contact, they can be touching the front of the thing rather than its ****. Or, you could just do it the old fashioned way and plonk it down in front of them, fish of fury style.
.


main rules require you to be within 2" of a door though, unless the merge with the tank itself. living metal? where have i heard that before... as to plonking it down in front, remember skimmers block LOS. kinda pointless since the idea is to let your lads shoot. :D




It has to be balanced somehow. Note that next turn you can move the 'fish, disembark, and shoot again, without the usual turn spent not firing as you move. Like JSJ for infantry. So it has other applications than just protecting you from an assault.
.

tau seem to be the only army that constantly get handed units/tactics with an upside balanced by a downside. for once id like a clearcut straight laced advantage...




I wasn't comparing them to marines/IG/orks, though, I was comparing them to the other codeci to point out that the Tau hardly need it the most. We could go into the problems with some of the other codeci and why they're worse off, but that would be too far off topic.

nah, marines and chaos obviously need updates. i've already seem ultramarine wishlisting threads. :rolleyes:

sheck2
15-08-2009, 01:08
Dead thread...rumors to wishlists...

getupandgo
15-08-2009, 02:11
when pathfinders can buy a skyray as a squad upgrade instead of a devilfish, and the price is no more than 100pts for a loaded up ray, i might take one in addition to the rest.

But until that day i am sorry but im not sacrificing either my 2 broadsides or the 2 hammerheads that always make up my heavy support.


That would be interesting, but honestly, I don't miss having the second hammerhead. the extra submunition is great, but a skyray is cheaper, flexible,and just as resilient. not to mention the fact that people tend to utterly ignore it in favor of shooting at the hammerhead, allowing it to position itself for some really juicy shots. There;s no way I'd want to sink those points for the seekers into FA 12 devilfish or worse, FA 11 piranhas




yeah i can see that. 5pts reduction in the base cost would alleviate some of it if you ask me.

5 point reduction and for the love of the greater good lower the price of plasma... defensive grenades would make sense too...

getupandgo
15-08-2009, 02:15
I'm making fun of the comment that suggests that Tau are not as competitive as what are considered the top two power armies. It's one of those comments that make you go, "Well, no? Really?". I guess you could also say, in fact, that only Orks and IG are as competitive as Orks and IG and that the mean temperature in Anartica is not nearly as warm as that of the surface of the Sun. I think the more sensible comment would have been to say that Tau are not as competitive as the more recent (and largely 5th edition-ready) codices instead of comparing their competitiveness the two armies that seemingly most people consider to be the most powerful. :p



I've seen no consensus on that, and I have seen players of other armies claim the same about their army... so I don't put much stock into those kind of comments.



And it's nice of you to judge which armies are core and therefore worthy of being balanced with the new crop of codices. Personally, I'm of the opinion that all armies should be on the same competitive scale as each other--not just the ones that I play.

Tau will get redone... it's just a matter of time Whether they're "more worthy" than some other army is entirely subjective, and not likely a consideration to GW as to when they'll be slotted into the release schedule.


my my, rather personal...

I play imperial guard as well, I'll have you know.

I don't mind that they got a boost. They NEEDED it... I also would rather play an over-powered guard army ANY day over another cookie cutter marine army.

I actually feel the same way about orks, I love them and love playing against them... but the nob biker list shows very little creativity (other than the person who invented it), and it's kind of boring when you know exactly how an army is going to play before it hits the table.

Trust me, Necrons, Demonhunters, and Tau are at the bottom of the heap in regards to competitiveness in tournament settings. look at the standings if you don't believe me.

getupandgo
15-08-2009, 02:32
Tau have never ever ever ever ever in any incarnation of the fluff or rules been a particularly long range army. Yes, they like and are good at fighting at longer ranges, but Imperial Guard have always been even longer ranged.




Like half the things in Imperial armies... I don't see Space Marines getting super advantages just because a Dreadnought is present, or Guardsmen getting super advantages because space marines are present, or Techpriests getting super advantages because vehicles are present, and so forth...


That's because you're looking in the wrong place. Space Marines and guard are getting (most of) their super advantages from their special characters (for the most part). A 100 some point character that lets your whole army flank? Who the hell wouldn't take that?

techpriests were (and still are) garbage... so are techmarines. but there are some insanely abusive builds you can make in both of those codexes... I.ll play against them just the same, and I'll do my best, but you have to realize, we're playing at a disadvantage... so be it, (I don't mind being the underdog).

You do realize that for being "the shootiest army in the game" we are pretty much getting anally raped, right? We can get outshot by a freaking ork army build for cripes sake, not to mention eldar, dark eldar, guard, some space marine builds, and chaos.

The only nerf that hurt us and guard was then immediately withdrawn in the new guard codex... leaving us to be one of the ONLY armies effected by the S4 defensive weapon rule.





Yes, exactly like them. As you said yourself, they are challenging to play, particularly because there are only 1 or 2 builds that actually work with them, and everything else fails miserably. That doesn't any of them (including Tau) uncompetitive. Again, you said yourself you got 2nd place, all it took was *gasp* to re-think the tried and true 4th ed strategy rut that Tau players have fallen into (not that I'm belittling your achievement; congrats by the way)

Tau don't have it that hard off, they don't need a codex that badly.

I disagree... while I myself enjoy playing the army, and have a great time with it, As I said, I got lucky. I pulled two very easy opponents... look at where tau constantly place in tournaments... we're not playing with a balanced codex. I am not going to stop playing them because of it, but it's pretty blatantly obvious. Now, maybe we wont get it for a while, and hopefully that will encourage some people to get creative and come up with some clever builds... other than the "mech tau is the only way" mantra that you hear over and over. I'm all for that.

A friend and I have a couple of builds that we're going to try out on the tournament circuit next year and see what we can do with it. I enjoy that aspect of re-looking at our codex, but some of the things, like the drones giving up kill points, or the would allocation for drones... they're just stupid.

The Dude
15-08-2009, 03:47
The edit button is your friend ;)

Azzy
15-08-2009, 04:49
my my, rather personal...

Not really. The closest thing is where I got annoyed with the implication that DH (or any other army) are somehow "less worthy" than Tau (or any other army for that matter). I would like to see all the armies updated and on an equal footing.

I still think you miss the point that my initial post was a lighthearted jab at what I consider a rather silly choice of phrasing and nothing more. I think you've been reading more into it than what you should. After all, silk is smoother than sandpaper. :p

Again, I'd like to see every army updated and on the same level of competitiveness. However, I don't think that Tau are any more (or less) worthy of getting an update than any other (non-updated) army list.

brigade101
15-08-2009, 05:03
http://bayhammer.blogspot.com said there is a hint of a new devilfish box back on June 2nd I think. Something about Q3 SKU's

I'd still like to se a single plasma rifle available to a firewarrior squad a a frag [ sub munition ] grenade launcher for crisis suits

Brimstone
15-08-2009, 12:29
No much in the way of rumour discussion here, moving to 40K General.

The Warseer Inquisition

getupandgo
15-08-2009, 15:23
Not really. The closest thing is where I got annoyed with the implication that DH (or any other army) are somehow "less worthy" than Tau (or any other army for that matter). I would like to see all the armies updated and on an equal footing.

I still think you miss the point that my initial post was a lighthearted jab at what I consider a rather silly choice of phrasing and nothing more. I think you've been reading more into it than what you should. After all, silk is smoother than sandpaper. :p

Again, I'd like to see every army updated and on the same level of competitiveness. However, I don't think that Tau are any more (or less) worthy of getting an update than any other (non-updated) army list.

No one said anything about "worthiness," merely about need.

Demonhunters are not a core army, neither are sisters... who I also play.

Azzy
15-08-2009, 16:42
No one said anything about "worthiness," merely about need.

Not in so many words, no. Hence, I used the term "implication" in regards to:

"I'd say maybe only demonhunters fare worse, and they're hardly a core army."

It's the "they're hardly a core army" (what exactly is your definition of a "core army") comment that seems to imply that they somehow matter less than other armies.


Demonhunters are not a core army, neither are sisters... who I also play.

And what exactly makes them not a "core" army or any less "core" than, say, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Chaos Daemons, or Black Templars?

Kettu
16-08-2009, 05:34
How do we exactly define 'Core' nowdays?

Been in game since RogueTrader?
Sisters: Check
Greyknights: Check

Had 2nd edition rules?
Sisters: Check
Greyknights: Check

Had a 2nd edition codex?
Sisters: Check
Greyknights: wait...

Got 3rd edition codices?
Sisters: Check
Greyknights: Check

Even Space Orks and Space Wolves were/are little played armies without a current codex and the Sisters still use their 2nd ed minis so of course not many will play them.

As for the topic at hand, I hope they keep Shadowsun (Or make her armour a HQ upgrade). I love that mini.

mughi3
16-08-2009, 21:58
Among the many wishings for tau......

They brought us the FW pirahna and skyray into the codex proper last time around....now they need to make pathfinders true fast units and actually more worth using by including the tetra in this version of the codex.

Imgine a marker light thats actually useful for it points costs and not over fragile.

night2501
03-09-2009, 03:05
hmm honestly, I hope tau do get a new book soon.
As some have noted many things just do not make sense after the edition change.

some things just need to be streamlined, like the cyclic ion blaster getting rending, others need to be fixed as right now do nothing, like the target priority gear/items, and others need to be toned down (4+ conditional save for tanks for 5 points!).

well also let`s be honest, tau are a good army in the right hand, but they hardly are atop tier army, specially comparing it against some of the later codexs.

and finally, most of the rumors the OP put there seems ok, making special issue weapons into common weaponry is one of the trademarks of the army, and actually said by GW, ethereals hardly can be more useless, forgeworld things making into the codex is not something new for tau either, the special chars is somewath of the trend with the new codex so is also to be expected, and about a new suit, shadowsun suit was special issue being tested for use, so it also makes sense.

the only things that seems like a wish list are the special issue power weapon (tau are defined as an army with no power weapons), and the talerians/gue vesa.

also as other have said, tau need little work, unlike other armies so they are quite good as a patch codex, and if you want to blame some codex for making your army not be out yet, blames marines and theyr 854536184165 flavours...

kazkal
03-09-2009, 07:31
Good to have some new rumours popping up- emphasize the point of it being 1-2 years out - likely to appear after DE and probably necrons in 2011 by the sounds of it.


Doubtful they have to release 15 marine codex's first.

MajorWesJanson
03-09-2009, 09:05
Based on what has been done for other armies in the fifth edition codexes and model releases, I expect the following for tau:

Models:
Broadside and Commander made into plastic kits, possibly as a single battlesuit upgrade sprue.

Hopefully a recut of the fire Warrior Sprue, reducing much of the whitespace. Possibly 6 on a sprue, with 2 sprues in a box. Possibly an upgrade sprue to convert fire warriors into pathfinders.

Tetras imported to plastic.

One more plastic box.

Knarloc kit as MC for kroot

2-4 metal characters


Rules:
Leader options- fire warrior, XV-8 suit, XV-22 suit, ethereal
1+ dropped for suit commander and fire warrior squads
Fire Warriors changed to include Shas'ui in the default Fire Warrior Unit. Fire warriors drop 1-2 points.
Drones no longer count for scoring or morale purposes.
Pathfinders no longer required to take a transport.
Devilfish dropped in price to approx 60-65 points
Wargear renamed so suits and vehicles no longer have same name wargear with different effects. Disruption pod upped to 15 points.
Pos relay changed from one unit on a 2+ to a +1 to reserve rolls and outflank, like Astropath.
Hammerhead given default weapon loadout and price with upgrades, likely ion cannon and burst cannons for 115-125 points.
Suits given basic loadout and then can upgrade, likely firestorm default.

Special Characters:
Aun'Va- Inspirational leader, deals with leadership and morale
Farsight- suit leader, allows larger suit units, all suits can take HW gear
Shadowsun- combat leader, give skills to unit of choice, can join units
Fire warrior leader-
Tank ace
special kroot chaper
special pathfinder
special vespid

kazkal
03-09-2009, 09:08
Just adding my thoughts from other thread


Okay just a few Idea's...

Special HQ
Special Character who makes it so Crisis Suits can claim Objectives
-Maybe a character who makes it so Fire Warriors can Move & still fire at max range with rapid fire weapons?
-Increase Rapid Fire Range for Tau Units to half range of weapon?

Elites
-Slight Decrease on Stealth suits & crisis Suits
-Make Targeting Array a Option for 5 points & it is considered Hard wired
-Cheaper Crisis Suit Weapons
-New Xeno Elite Unit
-FW type models I like the rounded look of R'myr

Troops
Fire Warriors-
-Like others suggested free leader if unit size is 10-12
-Cheaper Devilfish
-Kroot 6+ armor Save,Give atleast hounds infiltrate


Fast
Path Finders
-Marker Lights become Assault
Vespid
-1+Str & I increase range of blaster to 18...
Piranah
-Give it a Slight point decrease or maybe move in assault phase

Heavy
Broadsides
-I'd really like to see these increased in size like the size of 2 stealth suits....just want a heavier larger mech for the tau(((Drool)))...
-Hammer Heads Slight Point Decrease in rail heads...Yes str 10 ap 1 is great but how many times have your shots wiffed on a 1 or 2??? :|


Guns

Pulse Rifle:Range 32
Carbine & Burst Cannon: range 20?22?24?
Ion Cannon:Ap 2? maybe go to blast 2? instead of heavy 3?....
Fusion Blaster:Range 18?
Point Decrease on all Crisis suit weapons

MajorWesJanson
03-09-2009, 09:09
May as well merge these two threads, or close one down.

Alexk412
03-09-2009, 19:49
I don't think the special issue gear would become standard, because that would mean an advance in the timeline. Kinda like:

"Oh that new experimental gun works quite well. Tell the Earth caste to start equipping all suits with it."

If you look at the 40k timeline, there is still plenty of room to advance the days until they are forced to either man up and go into the new millenium (which I see being more of an asset than a liability to do) or just start rewriting the history as new codecies come out. That said, the special issue gear makes more sense to incorporate into the main lines because the Tau are supposed to rely on the hyper-advanced pace of developing tech they have. To compare, they accomplished in 4000-6000 years what the Imperium did in 20000-30000. (just a point of reference, so please don't shred my guesswork on Imperium numbers.) The point is, with a little creative codex work it is possible to add new weaponry to the Tau in a universe that came 40000 years to a dead standstill.

Shas'o Brightsword
04-09-2009, 03:12
Sounds very interesting indeed! Would love to see Gue'vesa and Tarellians - especially if this picture (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tarellian) is anything to go by.

what are these tarellian things i dont recall hearing about them?:confused:

Cadian144
04-09-2009, 04:43
what are these tarellian things i dont recall hearing about them?:confused:


From the 3rd -4th ? rule book ? Called "Dog Soldiers" Reptile looking warriors smaller in size and allied to Tau on occasions. Humans almost wiped them out by Virus bombs so they ahve a hatred for the Imperium.

No models have been made of them ..yet:D

More info about them on line, just do a search under tau Dog Soldiers or 40K Tarelians

kazkal
04-09-2009, 04:47
From the 3rd -4th ? rule book ? Called "Dog Soldiers" Reptile looking warriors smaller in size and allied to Tau on occasions. Humans almost wiped them out by Virus bombs so they ahve a hatred for the Imperium.

No models have been made of them ..yet:D

More info about them on line, just do a search under tau Dog Soldiers or 40K Tarelians



couldn't find em on lexicon

Crazy Ivan
04-09-2009, 10:15
couldn't find em on lexicon
Seriously? :eyebrows: The link I provided (and which is quoted only two posts above yours) is from Lexicanum.

Once again:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tarellian

BeastsofWar
04-09-2009, 10:35
this could get me back into Tau if they make the same leap as they did from 1st to 2nd codex. I loved the current dex. But i couldnt seem to shake the lust for XV8 goodness. which left me feeling nasty after a throng of necrons decided id better serve life as a cloud of atoms...

BoW- John

kazkal
04-09-2009, 11:56
Seriously? :eyebrows: The link I provided (and which is quoted only two posts above yours) is from Lexicanum.

Once again:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tarellian



I feel silly now :| Every time I saw someone spelling it differen't I'd go to lexy and try it >_< never saw your link....thanks ^_^

The bolter god
04-09-2009, 13:21
Guys have you seen some of the wiked advantages of the tau ok they are weak for most games but if used correctly your an unstoppable force :)

The bolter god
04-09-2009, 13:23
Ok i dont play as tau but iv faced a pretty awsum force but was used by the wrong guy and so i won when infact i should have lost. The tau can be deadly when in the right hands!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Cappy
04-09-2009, 15:26
The Tau need some form of small burst weapon for the troops section even if it replaces a markerlight on a 1 to 1 basis with the new 5th burst rules.

Hokiecow
04-09-2009, 16:32
New 5th ed burst rules? What are you refering to?
If your talking about troops having the ability to lay down more fire, it comes from deploying from a DF and rapidfiring. If your talking about mid range weapons, the pulse carbine. If your talking about templates?? It's just not their job.

Cadian144
04-09-2009, 17:45
Ok i dont play as tau but iv faced a pretty awsum force but was used by the wrong guy and so i won when infact i should have lost. The tau can be deadly when in the right hands!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Tau is not an army that you can just pick up and play. It does require a good amount of thought as to how your going to use it. I guess that could be said in fairness to all armys, but with Tau I have found on the times I use them I rewrite my list like 10 times before I am happy with it. My Guard...I only have to write out...8-9 times :p

But yes....they can be deadly...but now...not so much..they do need a few changes and some point adjustments;)

owen matthew
04-09-2009, 19:48
Tau is not an army that you can just pick up and play. It does require a good amount of thought as to how your going to use it. I guess that could be said in fairness to all armys, but with Tau I have found on the times I use them I rewrite my list like 10 times before I am happy with it. My Guard...I only have to write out...8-9 times :p

But yes....they can be deadly...but now...not so much..they do need a few changes and some point adjustments;)

Agreed. Although some armies can really be played well with out much thought, IMHO, or are so forgiving that it just seems that way. Tourney-style play is different.

Shas'o Brightsword
05-09-2009, 02:55
what i do is set up a fire base and send 2 or three squad out in d fish it works fine markerlights are essential.

Cadian144
05-09-2009, 03:46
what i do is set up a fire base and send 2 or three squad out in d fish it works fine markerlights are essential.


Agreed on the markerlights, and I think where a lot of new players mess up. I know my first few games using them I did not do it right. Again on my comment I have found Tau to be the most challenging in relation to coming up with tactics, it is also not a forgiving army. It seems if you mess up any one commponent you can lose the game in a flash. Or so has been my experience.:p

Played 5 games with them in the begining before I won 1....:D none of the 5 games before could even be closely called a draw....as in I got my @$$ kicked then handed to me while being kicked:cries::D

Shas'o Brightsword
05-09-2009, 03:51
yeah first game i didnt concentrate my marker lights and each really didnt do much if you stack it gives the enemy HELL! I know what you mean you screw up with one unit your whole army is out of wack. I mean poor FW and cc i mean its just a slaughter. i felt so bad for them first few games i played with them cause every time i drove up in my D-fish and advanced on foot well these orks simply chewed me up and spit me out alive! then picked me back up and kicked me back down reallll good! I think that game lasted til turn 3 with my whole army dying. But that was for the greater good. I learned from my mistakes.

cuda1179
05-09-2009, 05:27
I like to run a non-tau army. By that I mean I take Shadowsun, some stealth suits, a coulple broadsides, the manditory fire warriors, and the rest of the 2,000 points is in Kroot. My local opponents let me take Ankgor Prok, and that made all the difference....in 4th edition. I have yet to use them in 5th.

Having almost every unit in your army able to infiltrate and/or scout is HUGE. I know that kroot aren't the greatest, but when you have about 80 of them on you at once they tend to get mean. Even Marines will fall the massed firepower of the kroot. They even have enough attacks to glance a tank to death pretty easily, or at least make it useless.

The Stealth suits do mop-up work, annoyance duties, and if need be anti-tank. The Broadsides take out the heaviest armor while the Firewarriors provide a defensive line.

Shas'o Brightsword
05-09-2009, 14:47
thats all good ideas I just wish it were universally legal. :cries:

O'Henry
05-09-2009, 15:39
GW never seems to care about which army needs an update most. What they mostly care about is which army will provide them with more money. As a result I think that releasing a Tau codex wouldn't be surprising as the army is quite popular.

I to want to see a DE codex and an Inquisition codex as new enemies offer some more interest to the game.

However if they do release a Tau codex I don't want it to be a quick work....I want something like the IG codex (Big book that takes a year or so to read and understand completely :p)

night2501
05-09-2009, 16:15
my experience with TAU is simillar, started playing with them just a bit after the release.
The army is not forgiving at all, and it needs all parts to work together like a precision gear to be able to put a good fight, and is hard when even a few bad rolls or the opponent rolling above average with the saves can screw your battle plan and all your hard work, (happened to me sometimes), is like playing hard mode.
add to that TAU are a few armies that actually care for psychology...

Actually i like some of these traits of the TAU, it makes them play like a real army, you actually try to avoid close combat in favor of your gun (duh), set covering fire, use mobility and try to minimize casualties... but against the current armies... is like bringing a water gun to fight a space marine in a motorbike, they will just run over you...

t-tauri
05-09-2009, 16:22
We've already one Tau wishlist here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212843). Thread closed.