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pfishy98
11-08-2009, 08:22
hey all,

im starting 40k and ive managed to find a good deal on a used chaos space marine army.

my question is, Whats the scoop on them? are they any good? are theyre any choices i should stear clear of? What are their weaknesses? What are the staples of a good chaos army? any tips you guys can provide will be greatly appreciated.

DuskRaider
11-08-2009, 08:32
Chaos Space Marines are a very good army. It depends on what you want to use them for. Friendly play or tournament? Which units to use will vary to a degree depending on your purpose for the army.

Really, your best bet is just to search the forum. There are numerous threads about this same topic.

New Cult King
11-08-2009, 08:34
I've played Chaos Marines since '96, and even though I've dabbled with other armies, I keep going back to them. They are tough, strong in shooting and close combat, have some great background, and are a very solid all round force. I say do it!

StormWulfen
11-08-2009, 09:46
i agree, chaos is a good all round army to play, be carefull though as a lot of people on here will tell you not to play them and their codex is rubbish, this is because they compare it to the previos codex wich was unbalanced and overpowered IMO (although basilisks for my iron warriors was fun;).)

totgeboren
11-08-2009, 10:48
a lot of people on here will tell you not to play them and their codex is rubbish, this is because they compare it to the previos codex wich was unbalanced and overpowered IMO (although basilisks for my iron warriors was fun;).)

I have yet to hear a single chaos player say the new codex is weak power-wise.
It can however be viewed as rubbish if you want to make fluff-based armies and not be penalized for it. (I myself is slowly getting it to work for me, using count-as and just not minding some of the faults.)

pfishy98, a big drawback with starting chaos is that ever thread you start about them will derail into a chaos-codex hate-fest.

On the other hand, I think they are great fun, and my Word Bearers have given me many hours of joy. Since I am of the old school, I think you should stay clear of "the staples of a good chaos army" as you put it. Unless some of them are a unit that really inspires you.

Or you can go the way the new codex seems to be designed to work, and just take units that have good rules...

Other than that, they are quite few in numbers, so benefit from having transports to protect them till they are where you want them to be.
You can make em shooty like loyalists, but I find they work better as an assault force.
Lots of special weapons and being good both in firefights and assaults means you can take the fight right into the teeth of the enemy. :)

Oh, and chaos spawn are really horribly bad. When starting up your army, donīt buy any of those. :P

Vampiric16
11-08-2009, 10:52
Like SMs, CSMs are very flexible in terms of being able to dish out the firepower and still hold their own in combat. Not only that, but you get some of the nastiest units in the game like obliterators. The codex caters for most if not all of your gaming preferences; you can max out on combat or firepower or a healthy mix of both.

Vaktathi
11-08-2009, 12:08
CSM's as an army list are very powerful and flexible. As an army it's solid. Most of the complaints you will hear are fluff related (estimates no less than an hour before the arrival of someone starting this all off again with grandiose blanket statements based off RT era fluff), but in terms of ability to play on the table, the Chaos Space Marines are very near the top.

Basic CSM marines don't have the ATSKNF ability of normal SM's, but are higher Ld base, have an extra close combat attack, and have more flexible weapons options. The Cult troops are also generally solid all around, with the exception of the situational Thousand Sons.

Daemon Princes are some of the most cost efficient close combat powerhouse HQ's in the game, and Oblits are probably the best heavy infantry in the game. CSM terminators are incredibly flexible, both killy and very dangerous shooting units with the number of combi weapons they can take.

In terms of power level, Chaos marines are near the top.

EVIL INC
11-08-2009, 14:20
The chaos space marines are a very good army to play. Definately on a power level that is competative without going the whole overboard route we had before that gave all chaos players a bad name. You also finally have the ability to field a fully fluffy legion list regardless of the legion without being restrained to someone elses one dimensional cookie cutter list (of course, you will see grandiose blanket statements saying otherwise but I would suggest going with how YOU see them rather then having someone else ram thier version down your throat).

HQ- They come with all of the no brainers people took before built in for less points. They have, not as many options as I would like, but more then enough to effectively finish kitting them out. As in the marine list, special characters do not need opponant's permission.
Elite- Possessed are still a wild card. Chosen and termies are still rock hard squads. Dreads too are wild cards.
Troops- Your basic CSM is one of the best value for points in the game as they come with grenades, pistals, bolters and ccw. The cult troops are still all rock solid.
Fast attack- Bikers are still good (if you know how to use them) and raptors are also still good (although they lost hit and run :(). Spawn are universally laughed at as they are way too unpredictable and give away kp too easily.
Heavy support- You have all of the same players as last time except now all chaos can now take vindicaters.

Daemons- They took a hit in one way and got a boost in another. All daemons are alike now. No "marked" daemons but they are all still rock solid.
They gained in that they are bought outside of the foc. They count as troops but do not count towards the minimum or maximum ammount of units you can take. So effectively, you can have 9 (or MORE) troops choices rather then the maximum 6 (word bearers should be dancing in the streets). The same goes for the greater daemon. They are close combat monsters and are also outside the foc so you can take one of them and have 3 effective hq choices. This is extra tough when your other 2 are dp, plus a gd. Ouch!
Icons- They are a mixed "blessing". Before, you could buy marks to give to select units. The marks were really nice in that they lasted the whole game and gave full benefits of the mark. The problem with them was you werent able to field fully fluffy legions using them to all versions of the fluff beyond the one dimensional cookie cutter one (there ARE more that allow for more options). Now, you have icons which give the mark to the unit so long as the icon is in play. Of course, weight of fire can take the icon out but that happens so rarely that it is not even a factor so the icon should always be the last model removed. The only issue with the icons is that it doesnt give the FULL effects of the mark such as fearless. However, you can give the icons to a much wider variety of units so that you can finally once more field fully fluffy legions rather then mere cardboard cutouts. While the "loss" of 15 pages of unused gifts and wargear has theoretically (but not actually) made for less options in kitting out your characters, it has made for more options in army composition.

Overall, not a bad addition. It could most definately be better but still an improvement over the last codex.
Happy hunting.

totgeboren
11-08-2009, 14:32
Evil Inc, I donīt think the op was asking about how the new codex compares to the old, and as you well know, opinions about that aspect varies quite alot.
No need to force any opinion at all down anyones throat. ;)

Oh, to the op. First thing you should get is the codex, so you can take a look at what units look fun. Also, you could read some battlereports here on this forum to see how different units perform on the table.

Mannimarco
11-08-2009, 14:57
go for it, CSMs are very easy to get into, they have several powerful builds and are a very forgiving army

a good choice for beginners and vets alike

EVIL INC
11-08-2009, 15:23
Evil Inc, I donīt think the op was asking about how the new codex compares to the old, and as you well know, opinions about that aspect varies quite alot.
No need to force any opinion at all down anyones throat. ;)

Oh, to the op. First thing you should get is the codex, so you can take a look at what units look fun. Also, you could read some battlereports here on this forum to see how different units perform on the table.
That is why I addressed the ops direct question and gave details that related directly to thier questions and warned them of those who would actually force opinions down thier throat. I have always advocated against people trying to force thier views on others and tried to get people to formulate thier own opinions and views (as my post demonstrates). Thank you for the concern though. ;)
Checking the battle reports and tactics sections here IS a good idea.

DhaosAndy
11-08-2009, 15:44
Depends on what you want, lists can be built to compete with the best, but they're a bit samey.

Still at 1500 you'd be looking at including; at least 1 lash, 4+ oblits, berzerkers and plague marines as troops (both rhino mounted), a DP (either MoS/lash or MoT/WT/WoC. Try to have four troop units, you will probably need to resort to lesser daemons to do this. This would be a seriously competative list.

Semi competatively, just avoid spawn and dreadnoughts and almost anything can be made to work.

For fun, it's all good.

@ EVIL INC: Can't resist it can you, got to take a sly swipe at those who disagree with you, there was no need to refer to the source of discord at all was there?
Man, your dentist must love you.

DuskRaider
11-08-2009, 16:29
Yeah Andy, a Chaos topic can't go by without someone making a comment about one camp or another, or EVIL putting those who disagree with his opinion down.

Grand Master Raziel
11-08-2009, 16:49
Basic CSM marines don't have the ATSKNF ability of normal SM's, but are higher Ld base, have an extra close combat attack, and have more flexible weapons options. The Cult troops are also generally solid all around, with the exception of the situational Thousand Sons.


In regards to the lack of ATSNKF, one can always take the Icon of Chaos Glory to compensate for that, letting you reroll failed Morale tests. It's the cheapest of the icons, too.


Depends on what you want, lists can be built to compete with the best, but they're a bit samey.

Still at 1500 you'd be looking at including; at least 1 lash, 4+ oblits, berzerkers and plague marines as troops (both rhino mounted), a DP (either MoS/lash or MoT/WT/WoC. Try to have four troop units, you will probably need to resort to lesser daemons to do this. This would be a seriously competative list.

I disagree with DhaosAndy's assessment that you need to take a particular build to field a competitive army. With Codex: Chaos Space Marines, you can almost take units at random and be reasonably competitive, and if you select units with a coherent plan in mind, you'll have a rock-hard army no matter what you're selecting. The Lash+Oblits+Plague Marines list is just the one that teh intarwebs has identified as the main power list. It may win you games, but it won't help you make friends.

I'd also like to speak up in favor of the Chaos Dreadnought. I think most of the complaints about it stem from players accustomed to the last dex, where there was next to no chance that the thing would open up on friendly troops, making the supposed "disadvantage" of the Crazed table a de-facto advantage. If you're willing to gamble, it's not a bad unit. It's also not a bad unit if you take the Crazed table into account when you're building your army list, so you can make choices that mitigate the problem of a badly timed Fire Frenzy.

Anyhow, in case I was unclear, I'm in general agreement with the overall opinion that Chaos is a good army to play.

BrotherMoses
11-08-2009, 17:00
Go for it. Chaos is as hard as nails as the SM but twisted to the dark side. You're coming in at a great time for chaos too. This is the best all around codex they've ever had. Would love to play you if you were in my area.

"Death to traitors!" ;)

DuskRaider
11-08-2009, 18:19
I'd agree with Raziel on Dreadnoughts. They can be powerhouses and if used correctly, can really cause a muck for the enemy. If treated carefully and keeping your troops out of its LoS, it'll do great.

DhaosAndy
11-08-2009, 18:22
Grand Master Raziel: "In regards to the lack of ATSNKF, one can always take the Icon of Chaos Glory to compensate for that, letting you reroll failed Morale tests. It's the cheapest of the icons, too."

Don't bother, for that matter, in a seriously competative list don't bother with any of the icons, ther're a poor investment in points compared to berzerkers or plague marines (or even TS or NM). The roll of cheap troop choice is better filled by lesser daemons.

Grand Master Raziel: "I disagree with DhaosAndy's assessment that you need to take a particular build to field a competitive army. With Codex: Chaos Space Marines, you can almost take units at random and be reasonably competitive, and if you select units with a coherent plan in mind, you'll have a rock-hard army no matter what you're selecting. The Lash+Oblits+Plague Marines list is just the one that teh intarwebs has identified as the main power list. It may win you games, but it won't help you make friends."

You have failed to understand what I'm saying, there is a world of difference between reasonably competative (the sort of list one employs most of the time) and seriously competative (the sort of list one takes to GT's and the like). In the latter you are looking for the highest power/points ratio units that will enable you to tackle other players power builds, while being able to fulfill all the possible mission requirements. In actual fact the Lash+Oblits+Plague Marines list is rather easily nullified by psychic hoods and runes of warding, etc.

Friendliness at tournaments is more about attitude at the table than content of lists. I see no point in entering a tournamnet except to try to win it, and I'm not so good a player that I can afford to take unit/s that are sub par.

Grand Master Raziel: "I'd also like to speak up in favor of the Chaos Dreadnought. I think most of the complaints about it stem from players accustomed to the last dex, where there was next to no chance that the thing would open up on friendly troops, making the supposed "disadvantage" of the Crazed table a de-facto advantage. If you're willing to gamble, it's not a bad unit. It's also not a bad unit if you take the Crazed table into account when you're building your army list, so you can make choices that mitigate the problem of a badly timed Fire Frenzy."

Don't waste your time, the dreadnought is a bad unit, the advantage of berzerk charging fails to balance the disadvantages of fire frenzy. Yes you can deploy in such a way as to mitigate fire frenzy, but if that conflicts with the way inwhich you need to deploy to complete a particular mission, against the opponent you are facing you are at a massive disadvantage. Basically if you can be sure that you will always be able to deploy so that your opponent is (or is very quickly) the nearest thing to the dreadnought then it could be a worthwhile unit. However, in reality against no small number of armies and in a number of missions/deployment types you will want a tight deployment where units cannot be picked off and are able to support each other closely. In such circumstances a dreadnought is a liability and as such (cool though chaos dreadnoughts are) they are a bad choice in any competative, never mind seriously competative list.

As regards previous codex incarnations of the chaos dreadnought. 2nd ed. one could mitigate the effects of frenzy/rage with possession so few unpossessed dreadnoughts were used. 3.0 had it about right, it was worth the risk of frenzy because of the power of rage. 3.5 they were worth the risk, perhaps a little too good, though I didn't see or hear of anyone spamming them, so they weren't that good. 4.0 frenzy is too much of a draw back and rage too little of a boon. If frenzy didn't include turning to face and rage still doubled attacks they might be worth it, as it stands ther're a waste of points.

Askari
11-08-2009, 19:12
I'd also like to speak up in favor of the Chaos Dreadnought.

You should read my battle reports... the amount of my Rubric Marines that die is shocking :p

Dreadnoughts with 2 DCCWs are... mediocre.
Anything else is suicide.

Then again, being me, I still use them :)

pfishy98
12-08-2009, 02:58
well you guys sold me! thanks for the help. im going to purchase the army. i look forward to getting into 40k and CSM sound great.

DhaosAndy
12-08-2009, 03:05
Welcome to the darkside :)

Good luck!

Nicha11
12-08-2009, 03:09
well you guys sold me! thanks for the help. im going to purchase the army. i look forward to getting into 40k and CSM sound great.

Enjoy:D:D

If you want read some of the choas tactica's, they are very good.

Grand Master Raziel
12-08-2009, 08:04
well you guys sold me! thanks for the help. im going to purchase the army. i look forward to getting into 40k and CSM sound great.

Good luck to you, sir! May your army provide you with countless hours of enjoyment!


Don't bother, for that matter, in a seriously competative list don't bother with any of the icons, ther're a poor investment in points compared to berzerkers or plague marines (or even TS or NM). The roll of cheap troop choice is better filled by lesser daemons.

I'm really quite surprised to read that, considering the fact that lesser daemons have no guns and only a 5+ ward save. Plague Marines and Khorne Berserkers are certainly both fine units, but there are no flies on the regular CSM squad, either, and the CSMs are considerably cheaper, so you can have more of them, or more support for them than the PMs and Zerks might get.


You have failed to understand what I'm saying, there is a world of difference between reasonably competative (the sort of list one employs most of the time) and seriously competative (the sort of list one takes to GT's and the like). In the latter you are looking for the highest power/points ratio units that will enable you to tackle other players power builds, while being able to fulfill all the possible mission requirements. In actual fact the Lash+Oblits+Plague Marines list is rather easily nullified by psychic hoods and runes of warding, etc.

Well, that's what teh intarwebs would have us believe is the most powerful CSM build. What would you claim to be the very specific combo of units that gives the most bang for the buck, then? Anyhow, I used the term "reasonably competitive" in reference to an army list of randomly selected units. I assert that Codex: Chaos Space Marines can be used to make any number of highly competitive armies as long as the player in question has a good plan in mind when he builds his list. There's very little in there that a person can go very far wrong with.


Friendliness at tournaments is more about attitude at the table than content of lists. I see no point in entering a tournamnet except to try to win it, and I'm not so good a player that I can afford to take unit/s that are sub par.

I don't have a problem with what you're saying, but I think your view of what constitutes a sub par unit is very badly skewed. If "par" is Noise Marines and Khorne Berserkers, then everything else in the game will suffer in comparison, as those are respectively the hardiest infantry unit and one of the best assault units in the game. That's like setting par on a golf course as Tiger Woods' best score on that course.


Don't waste your time, the dreadnought is a bad unit, the advantage of berzerk charging fails to balance the disadvantages of fire frenzy. Yes you can deploy in such a way as to mitigate fire frenzy, but if that conflicts with the way inwhich you need to deploy to complete a particular mission, against the opponent you are facing you are at a massive disadvantage. Basically if you can be sure that you will always be able to deploy so that your opponent is (or is very quickly) the nearest thing to the dreadnought then it could be a worthwhile unit. However, in reality against no small number of armies and in a number of missions/deployment types you will want a tight deployment where units cannot be picked off and are able to support each other closely. In such circumstances a dreadnought is a liability and as such (cool though chaos dreadnoughts are) they are a bad choice in any competative, never mind seriously competative list.

I've been seeing Chaos Dreads pop up in tournament lists, so your opinion must not be shared by all. Also, I can think of a few very simple ways to mitigate the possible downside of a badly timed Fire Frenzy. The simplest is to take a Dread with 2 DCCWs. You get negligible firepower from it, but it does have the advantage of being a fairly cheap close combat monster. Another idea is to park it next to a Land Raider, if you happen to be taking a Land Raider for its own merits. A LR can suck up anything up to and including plasma cannon fire without any risk. A third idea is to give your Dread the TLHB arm and have it tag-team with a Defiler or a similarly-armed Dread. Then, if the thing Fire Frenzies at a bad time, you can simply ensure that the frenzying Dread has an AV12 facing to fire at, thus ensuring that it does no damage to you.


As regards previous codex incarnations of the chaos dreadnought. 2nd ed. one could mitigate the effects of frenzy/rage with possession so few unpossessed dreadnoughts were used. 3.0 had it about right, it was worth the risk of frenzy because of the power of rage. 3.5 they were worth the risk, perhaps a little too good, though I didn't see or hear of anyone spamming them, so they weren't that good. 4.0 frenzy is too much of a draw back and rage too little of a boon. If frenzy didn't include turning to face and rage still doubled attacks they might be worth it, as it stands ther're a waste of points.

Back in the unlamented 3.5 days, I played in a tournament against someone who used three of the things with plasma cannons and havoc launchers. They got to fire 3 blast templates a turn while retaining their DCCW (and having 3 attacks on their profile back then, too, if memory serves). When they frenzied, they let loose with 6 templates each! So, yes, they were good enough to spam.

DhaosAndy
12-08-2009, 09:19
Grand Master Raziel: "I'm really quite surprised to read that, considering the fact that lesser daemons have no guns and only a 5+ ward save. Plague Marines and Khorne Berserkers are certainly both fine units, but there are no flies on the regular CSM squad, either, and the CSMs are considerably cheaper, so you can have more of them, or more support for them than the PMs and Zerks might get."

Regular CSM's are good, but PM's & Zerkers are better at what they do well. Too get the best out of regular CSM's you need 10, Asp Chp with fist, icon, special & heavy/2 specials + rhino. That's getting close to 300pts. An effective unit of Zerkers comes in at circa 260 (bout the same for PM's at circa 270) including rhino. So 2 x Zerkers + PM unit saves in the region of 100-110 pts, sufficient for a unit of daemons of adequate size. Which is the real use of the daemons, to bulk up the troop choices cheaply, since 100-110 pts of CSM wouldn't be worth the effort.

Grand Master Raziel: "Well, that's what teh intarwebs would have us believe is the most powerful CSM build. What would you claim to be the very specific combo of units that gives the most bang for the buck, then? Anyhow, I used the term "reasonably competitive" in reference to an army list of randomly selected units. I assert that Codex: Chaos Space Marines can be used to make any number of highly competitive armies as long as the player in question has a good plan in mind when he builds his list. There's very little in there that a person can go very far wrong with."

All the power lists have twin lash + oblits + PM's personaly I'd use Zerkers instead, since I prefer to get up close and break heads rather than hold back and shoot. PM lists will tend to hold on tight and shoot.

Grand Master Raziel: "I don't have a problem with what you're saying, but I think your view of what constitutes a sub par unit is very badly skewed. If "par" is Noise Marines and Khorne Berserkers, then everything else in the game will suffer in comparison, as those are respectively the hardiest infantry unit and one of the best assault units in the game. That's like setting par on a golf course as Tiger Woods' best score on that course."

Well in choosing between CSM and Zerkers I think along these lines: The zerkers are better in combat & fearless, generaly I like either unit best in combat, so when you factor in the fact that an effective unit of Zerkers is cheaper than an effective unit of CSM's the CSM's lose out in the bang/buck stakes.

Grand Master Raziel: "I've been seeing Chaos Dreads pop up in tournament lists, so your opinion must not be shared by all. Also, I can think of a few very simple ways to mitigate the possible downside of a badly timed Fire Frenzy. The simplest is to take a Dread with 2 DCCWs. You get negligible firepower from it, but it does have the advantage of being a fairly cheap close combat monster. Another idea is to park it next to a Land Raider, if you happen to be taking a Land Raider for its own merits. A LR can suck up anything up to and including plasma cannon fire without any risk. A third idea is to give your Dread the TLHB arm and have it tag-team with a Defiler or a similarly-armed Dread. Then, if the thing Fire Frenzies at a bad time, you can simply ensure that the frenzying Dread has an AV12 facing to fire at, thus ensuring that it does no damage to you."

Perhaps those tournaments used comp scores? Problem is with your suggestion is that Fire frenzy is too much of a drawback to be sustainable even if the dreadnought does no damage to his own side he has still lost movement/shooting for a turn, which means the points should have been spent on something more effective.

Grand Master Raziel: "Back in the unlamented 3.5 days, I played in a tournament against someone who used three of the things with plasma cannons and havoc launchers. They got to fire 3 blast templates a turn while retaining their DCCW (and having 3 attacks on their profile back then, too, if memory serves). When they frenzied, they let loose with 6 templates each! So, yes, they were good enough to spam."

Tsk, no need for the side swipe. Anyway, in such days I would have been glad to see 3 dreads, since that would have meant no oblits :)

Warsmith Tharak
12-08-2009, 09:41
You could still see obliterators since they were elites...

DhaosAndy
12-08-2009, 14:18
:eek: must check before posting :o

Grand Master Raziel
12-08-2009, 16:39
Regular CSM's are good, but PM's & Zerkers are better at what they do well. Too get the best out of regular CSM's you need 10, Asp Chp with fist, icon, special & heavy/2 specials + rhino. That's getting close to 300pts. An effective unit of Zerkers comes in at circa 260 (bout the same for PM's at circa 270) including rhino. So 2 x Zerkers + PM unit saves in the region of 100-110 pts, sufficient for a unit of daemons of adequate size. Which is the real use of the daemons, to bulk up the troop choices cheaply, since 100-110 pts of CSM wouldn't be worth the effort.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn't reference your dex before posting this. I took a look at mine before replying, though. I'll agree in principle that you want the upgrades for the CSM squad. However, I found that a unit of 10 CSMs with a PF-wielding Aspiring Champion, IoCG, a pair of meltaguns and a basic Rhino costs 255pts, which is 10pts less than an equal-sized squad of Plague Marines with no upgrades exept the same basic Rhino. A squad of 10 PMs with the same upgrades (except the Icon, obviously) and the Rhino runs a whopping 325pts! A squad of 10 Zerks with no upgrades would be less than the reasonably-upgraded CSM squad, but give the Zerks the likely Skull Champion with PF and the Rhino, and they clock in at 285pts.


Well in choosing between CSM and Zerkers I think along these lines: The zerkers are better in combat & fearless, generaly I like either unit best in combat, so when you factor in the fact that an effective unit of Zerkers is cheaper than an effective unit of CSM's the CSM's lose out in the bang/buck stakes.

All right, that sheds some light on your thought process. However, it does suggest that instead of stating "Zerks are better than CSMs", you should be stating "I like Zerks better than CSMs". Zerks may suit your play style better, but that does not make them an overall better unit. CSMs are both cheaper and pack more firepower than Zerks. Take an equal number of CSMs vs an equal number of Zerks, and I agree the CSMs will probably lose. Take an equal number of points worth of CSMs vs Zerks, however, and it's going to be a much different story.


Perhaps those tournaments used comp scores? Problem is with your suggestion is that Fire frenzy is too much of a drawback to be sustainable even if the dreadnought does no damage to his own side he has still lost movement/shooting for a turn, which means the points should have been spent on something more effective.

No, the tourneys did not include comp scores. Your view on Dreads is just not universal. The problem with your attitude is that you are assuming that Fire Frenzy will always happen on the first or second turn, before your Dreads have had a chance to close with your opponent's forces. It's just as likely (or more likely more so) that Fire Frenzy will happen later in the game, when your Dread is closer to your opponent's forces than your own, and light them up with a double-tapping of whatever weapons he happens to be carrying, which could be quite effective, depending on what he's packing.


Tsk, no need for the side swipe. Anyway, in such days I would have been glad to see 3 dreads, since that would have meant no oblits :)

Sadly, that would not be the case back then. Dreads were Heavy Support and Oblits were Elites.

Captain Micha
12-08-2009, 16:50
CSM are good. without Lash, they are as strong *actually a little stronger imo* than normal SM.

There's alot of gold in that codex and very few bad units. (but ohhhh boy the bad units Chaos Marines have.... Spawn are the worst unit ever. And this is a Necron guy telling you this, who has first hand experience with just how bad Pariah are)

Dreads get alot of flak on this forum but really I've found them to be quite reliable. *more so certainly than a Khorne Daemon weapon, and as reliable as Plasma.. both of which are items that feature prominently in many people's armies) Fire Frenzy rarely happens, and when it does there's as much of a chance often times of it screwing your opponent more so than yourself.

Of course you could be an evil bastard and make your Dread all about The Close Combat and then "frenzy" becomes an asset rather than a potential liability.

CSM share every weakness their non spikey counter parts share, as they are still Marines at the end of the day. Banshees will rape them, Fire dragons will roast them, Fire Knife still hurts alot, the Colossus is still mean and nasty, etc.

You do however get one very very nice ace up your sleeve with Daemons *yes I'm going there dammit, hear me out first before you CSM whiners start screaming at me* you get a DSable unit, that can last minute objective steal or contest unit. They are cheap and disposable units. Which make them easily worth it. Which is something the Daddy Loved Enough Marines don't get anything remotely like.

DhaosAndy
12-08-2009, 17:38
@ Grand Master Raziel: with regard to zerkers and PM's one can get away with smaller squads. I normally run with squads of 8 zerkers (and if I used PM's I'd run 7's). My 8 man zerker squads come in at 263-273 inc. rhino, against 310 for the 10 man CSM squad (inc. rhino), which they replaced (because it consistantly under performed).

If you'd ever played me you'd know 'anything but a........' will be my bloody epitaph ;) (and the use of the sanguine modifier is deliberate). :)

Mega Nutz
12-08-2009, 18:13
Go for it....I think its great army to play with and mine's quite tame compared to most!!

Craftworld
12-08-2009, 18:15
Good luck with your CSM army, brah. They were my starting army and I had a lot of fun with them.

I wasn't a huge fan of dreadnoughts by any means, nor the new watered down demons that others in this post are praising - but there are still a lot of solid choices to take in both a close-knit gaming circle, or even in a tourney setting.

I've also never seen a unit strike fear into an opponent like Abaddon. :evilgrin:

EVIL INC
13-08-2009, 00:01
I knew people would not be able to resist taking swipes at me simply because I disagree with them. :rolleyes:The OP did not open the thread to start another of the million anti-pro codex arguments. Kindly leave those in the relevent threads and stick to the subject at hand.
Seriously, chaos can be very competative. Just dont feel that you need to take the same mythical list that is spouted out at you. For example, lash princes arent as populer as they would leave you to believe. I for example do not use them at all and am highly successfull. There is a wide variety of lists and directions you can now go and stay at the top of the competative food chain. Welcome aboard and happy hunting. :)

Grand Master Raziel
13-08-2009, 05:37
@ Grand Master Raziel: with regard to zerkers and PM's one can get away with smaller squads. I normally run with squads of 8 zerkers (and if I used PM's I'd run 7's). My 8 man zerker squads come in at 263-273 inc. rhino, against 310 for the 10 man CSM squad (inc. rhino), which they replaced (because it consistantly under performed).

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around how you managed to run a CSM squad up to 310pts. 250-280pts is a more likely figure for a reasonably equipped CSM squad with Rhino, depending on what other upgrades you give it. What were you doing, giving it lasplas and the Icon of Nurgle or something? It seems to me that you were sinking more points into the CSM squad than you needed to. It suggests that the flaw is not with CSM squads, but with your list building at the time.

Personally, the prospect of having a Tac Squad that is equipped with bolter+bp+ccw+frags+kraks and could take a second assault weapon instead of a heavy weapon would set me drooling, and that's not even taking into account the added versatility the Icons give the squad. IoCG makes them hard to break. IoK makes them a credible assault unit, but one with bolters and other decent guns, so they can let loose a whithering hail of fire the turn they unass from their track, then hit like a ton of bricks when they charge - heck, even being charged, they'll really dish it out. IoN makes them more resilient to standard weapons fire. IoT makes them more resilient to save-negating weapons. About the only Icon that doesn't really do it for me is IoS, but getting to go before most MEQs is not to be denied, either. Sure, any of the Cult troops do what they're specialized in better than an Iconed CSM squad, but the CSM squad is both more versatile and cheaper. If you like specialists, then you've got the Cult troops to work with, but if you like a versatile unit, CSMs will perform very well for you.

DhaosAndy
13-08-2009, 14:47
Grand Master Raziel: "I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around how you managed to run a CSM squad up to 310pts. 250-280pts is a more likely figure for a reasonably equipped CSM squad with Rhino, depending on what other upgrades you give it. What were you doing, giving it lasplas and the Icon of Nurgle or something? It seems to me that you were sinking more points into the CSM squad than you needed to. It suggests that the flaw is not with CSM squads, but with your list building at the time."

(from memory) Las/Plas/IoCG\Asp.Chp. PF/Mb\Rhino/Poss./HL. Is how it ended up, having started out as 2xMg/IoCG\Asp.Chp. PF\Rhino/Poss. Your probably right, I was sinking to many points into it, in the end I think I was expecting to much of it. I was, at the time trying to make a sword and shield strategy work, with the CSM's joining either sword or shield depending on mission/opponent. They where replaced in the end because I couldn't make them work in that role. I tend to be better when going for it rather than trying to be subtle ;) so the zerkers where more fitting.

At the end of the day I think we look at things in a different way, ironicaly the only aligned icon I ran them with was IoS simply because extra attacks, toughness, Inv. Saves are nice but to strike first is gold.

@ EVIL INC: You deserved a swipe, because the first mention of previous dex's was yours!

Grand Master Raziel
13-08-2009, 16:35
(from memory) Las/Plas/IoCG\Asp.Chp. PF/Mb\Rhino/Poss./HL. Is how it ended up, having started out as 2xMg/IoCG\Asp.Chp. PF\Rhino/Poss. Your probably right, I was sinking to many points into it, in the end I think I was expecting to much of it. I was, at the time trying to make a sword and shield strategy work, with the CSM's joining either sword or shield depending on mission/opponent. They where replaced in the end because I couldn't make them work in that role. I tend to be better when going for it rather than trying to be subtle ;) so the zerkers where more fitting.

Well, you found what works for you, so all's well as ends well. I think where you really went wrong with that squad was all the upgrades on the Rhino, which literally doubled the price, athough I have to admit I have thought about doing that too. Also, I wouldn't use heavy weapons in CSM squads. Instead, I'd run with paired assault weapons. Plus, why put meltabombs on a Champ with a powerfist?


At the end of the day I think we look at things in a different way, ironicaly the only aligned icon I ran them with was IoS simply because extra attacks, toughness, Inv. Saves are nice but to strike first is gold.

I guess my thinking is, the I5 would make the squad strike before most MEQs, but it wouldn't make them strike before or at the same time as the really annoying high-initiative MEQ killers, like Genestealers or Howling Banshees. Still, you do get a good effect against the vast majority of armies you'd be facing, and IoS is also the second-cheapest of the Icons. Still, if I didn't have thematic reasons to stay away from it with the Chaos army I have in mind, that IoK is very tempting to me.

DhaosAndy
13-08-2009, 17:09
Grand Master Raziel: "Well, you found what works for you, so all's well as ends well. I think where you really went wrong with that squad was all the upgrades on the Rhino, which literally doubled the price, athough I have to admit I have thought about doing that too."

Well it gave them a blast to use against hordes (specially orks) and it worked pretty well and made up for the loss of the ML. Also I've found rhino's without possession tend to go nowhere fast.

Grand Master Raziel: "Also, I wouldn't use heavy weapons in CSM squads. Instead, I'd run with paired assault weapons."

Well I was trying to exploit the flexibility thing, hang back and shoot with the shield or plough forward with the sword according to mission/opponent, couldn't really get it to work thought :(

Grand Master Raziel: "Plus, why put meltabombs on a Champ with a powerfist?"

Land raiders ;)

DuskRaider
13-08-2009, 17:23
Icon of Khorne is really handy with regular CSM squads, I do have to say. You pretty much have a squad that can sit in cover and fire with [Insert Weapon Here] and if they're attacked, they have 3 attacks base. Charging, you get 4.

It's really great for an assault oriented force, I use mine to lay down cover fire for my Berserkers, along with Havocs who actively tank hunt (everyone wants to go Mech, I'll go Mech Hunter ;-) ). Some people might slam you for using "inferior units", but they've worked like a charm for my World Eaters so far. Rhino rush up, drop the Tac / Havoc Squads in cover, and slam into the enemy front with 3 squads of Berserkers.

EVIL INC
14-08-2009, 00:44
@ EVIL INC: You deserved a swipe, because the first mention of previous dex's was yours!
The new codex IS different from the one before just as that was different from the one before it and so forth. As the OP was asking about how it operates and how successfull you can be with it, it is only sensical to explain in detail how different it is. I was able to do so without making swipes about which is "better" or even bringing that conversation up (that came in later posts by others). I advocated the OP doing his research and making his own decisions on what he prefers.
You are well able to make a good all rounder army and have many many colorfull options when it comes to modeling and painting your army to look as nice as it performs. Thats half the FUN isnt it?:p