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oninosweeney
11-08-2009, 16:15
adding shields & armor to MM's makes them lose Fast Cavalry, but just being movement 8 cavalry unit now you get rank and file, at the same price as Warriors.

would this then make them viable to take as a block to flank charge to assist your (usually) minimum 5 Knights, giving them the rank bonuses you need with better survivability than ranked Warhounds, as well as counting as you core choices, more speed than ranked Warriors & normal Marauders and is actually a little faster than the knights so the turns for flanking would not slow anyone down?





(yes i tried search, and the tactica is 129 pages long; i gave up about 10 in.)

xsamx
11-08-2009, 16:23
I havent tried this yet but i personally think it is pretty viable, especially in all cav forces, as you will still be able to field a few units as fast cav!

10 ranked up with shields and LA with spears or flails seems to me a potent flanker/flank protector. They could deal with enemy flanking units and also help your knights chew up tougher units! Especially marked khorne for more attacks.

I might try writing a list with a unit in, as i have enough of them to field said unit!

tarrym
11-08-2009, 19:21
I have a mono-slaanesh woc army and one of the units I'd really like to add is 10-12 "heavy" marauder horsemen. It seems like a pretty decent setup to me...cheap, fast moving rank bonus which also stands a chance at killing something, or at least making your opponent think twice about a flank.

Ideally I'd add a dirt cheap exalted champion on a daemonic steed (or maybe barded steed if I can get over the 7" move) to lead the unit...literally champ + mount + halberd, no magic items. Gives the unit a really nasty bite in combat.

Avian
11-08-2009, 20:03
Well, 10 Horsemen in one unit is significantly worse than 10 Horsemen in two units, for the same cost. You are swapping a good amount of attacks for a very dubious +1 rank bonus. That just isn't worth it.

More thoughts: Marauder Horsemen (http://www.avianon.net/tactics/marauder_units_chars.php#unit_horsemen)

oninosweeney
11-08-2009, 20:25
well it's not the exact same cost when you count in musicians and marks, but i see were you're going with this.
how is the +1 rank bonus dubious?

besides i was looking for a full block of 20 with a mounted BSB; like you would do with a full block of Warriors. or are you saying that a full block of 20 anything is significantly worse then multiple squads of minimum size?

and were not talking GT lists here, just something fun to see what the army book is capable of.

xsamx
11-08-2009, 23:45
I would also say you should include the +1 for banner, as you dont take banners when you field them FC 5 men, but in a regiment of 10 (or twenty) a banner would be a must. So you're looking at +1 CR for banner and then an additional 1+ CR for ranks. Adding in an exalted on daemonic steed would be awesome too, especially if you mark the unit khorne and give it flails?

Thats a LOT of hurt in 1st turn of combat, moving 16 inches, backed up by some solid CR and causing fear. Chuck in a blessing from a warshrine and i reckon this unit would hit rediculously hard for very reasonable points value.

I've always liked the idea of an all cav force made up of loads of marauder horse too, with just one big unit of knights. The marauder models are just so nice.

Sarah S
12-08-2009, 00:04
Well, 10 Horsemen in one unit is significantly worse than 10 Horsemen in two units, for the same cost. You are swapping a good amount of attacks for a very dubious +1 rank bonus. That just isn't worth it.

More thoughts: Marauder Horsemen (http://www.avianon.net/tactics/marauder_units_chars.php#unit_horsemen)

You aren't losing anything if you expect to get shot at by anything more than a single unit of handgunners before you can get into combat.

decker_cky
12-08-2009, 02:19
With hefty US, let's say you take 13 with the daemonic steed exalted, you're probably adding the rank, the standard and outnumber. Give them mark of nurgle to protect them from light shooting. Need to kill 5 models to remove rank bonus (and +2 rank bonus in the unlikely case that they reach combat unscathed). Not a bad unit.

Avian
12-08-2009, 08:53
how is the +1 rank bonus dubious?
If it relies on a single T3 4+ save guy not dying, then I'd call it quite dubious.


besides i was looking for a full block of 20 with a mounted BSB; like you would do with a full block of Warriors. or are you saying that a full block of 20 anything is significantly worse then multiple squads of minimum size?
Well, the bigger the unit, the more points you are spending on guys who aren't really doing anything. If we are assuming that you will be charging something fairly weedy with your unit, then each guy in the front rank will be killing on average something between 0,5 to 1 guys. That is somewhere in the region of 25 pts spent to generate 1 point of Combat Result bonus.

Now, considering that it costs in the region of 80 pts to generate just 1 point of CR from rank bonus, I think you can see the problem with this plan. ;)

Yes, a block of 20 is significantly worse than multiple units of minimum size.




With hefty US, let's say you take 13 with the daemonic steed exalted, you're probably adding the rank, the standard and outnumber. Give them mark of nurgle to protect them from light shooting. Need to kill 5 models to remove rank bonus (and +2 rank bonus in the unlikely case that they reach combat unscathed). Not a bad unit.
Considering that you are paying around 400 - 450 points for it, it should be good! ;)

Just to repeat my standpoint: The problem with 'eavy Horsemen is the points cost of the unit and nothing else. They would be great if they were cheaper and you can indeed make a nasty unit by throwing a heap of points at it.
I'd rather spend the points on something else, though.

oninosweeney
12-08-2009, 13:21
Just to repeat my standpoint: The problem with 'eavy Horsemen sorry, had to break in.... dropping the "H" and making it 'eavy Horsemen and it just for some reason made me chuckle... i love it. please, carry on.

....is the points cost of the unit and nothing else. They would be great if they were cheaper and you can indeed make a nasty unit by throwing a heap of points at it.
I'd rather spend the points on something else, though.
so for the same point cost you wouldn't run 4x5 block of Chose Warriors either than? i'm just trying to make sure i completely understand where you're coming from.

Arguleon-veq
12-08-2009, 14:31
At the end of the day, what Avian is getting at is that you should never aim for rank bonus' with units that consist of expensive models.

Think of it like this, you can have a unit of 6 Marauder Horse with Flails and Mark of Khorne.

OR

10 Marauder Horse with Flails and Mark of Khorne.

The first unit will net you a combat res of 6 [6 Kills against WS3.T3.4+ Save Infantry].

The second unit will also net you a combat res of 6 [5 Kills against the same, then +1 rank bonus].

So you are paying all those points just for that 1 rank where you could just pay the points for 1 model for the extra kill.

You can also compare it to the Warbanner if we are talking about Warriors/Chosen/Knights. You can put almost 100 points into paying for an extra rank, those 100 points are only getting you +1 combat res. You can give a 25 point warbanner that does that.

So its just not worth it in many cases to spend lots of points on a rank bonus, you only really do that with cheap units such as Marauders where a rank will only cost you about 30 points.

EndlessBug
12-08-2009, 14:59
50mm deep cav base x 4 = 200mm long flank (not sure if it's 50 or 40... if 40 then 16mm flank). Good luck manouvering that hefty unit. Dark Elves can just throw 2 small harpy units to both its flanks to severely hamper its movement.

You're paying over 350 points for a fast HUGE unit with only a 4+ save. 4 units of 5 is definately much better.

Avians point is that you're paying an extraordinary amount of points for a measly +1 CR. 80 points per rank is stupidly expensive.

If you then give it frenzy you've got a ridiculously easy to lure unit worth quite a efw points that falls like a tonne of bricks if hit in the flank/rear.

Avian
12-08-2009, 15:15
so for the same point cost you wouldn't run 4x5 block of Chose Warriors either than? i'm just trying to make sure i completely understand where you're coming from.
That's right. I'm fielding a unit of 12 Warriors at the moment and other than the occasional feeling that a thirteenth warrior might have been nice, that unit is good as it is.

bork da basher
12-08-2009, 15:21
ive tried it and it doesn't really work, T3 and mediocre armour save still sees them dying in droves. against a non shooty army i'd consider it with MoK but any other time i'd take something else. two units of 5 is always better than one unit of 10.

oninosweeney
12-08-2009, 15:24
okay, i understand what you're all getting at now. (i'm slow)

so, being core, i could run the unlimited amounts of smaller units and get the same if not better "bang for the buck" as i could with the huge one.

hmmm, i'm gonna at least try it in one game, just to see the results (not sure if 400 point unit in a 750 game is funny or not), and then i'll try my other stupid idea of a 4x5 block of Poison Warhounds with a Slanesh BSB on a Steed of Slaanesh with a Banner of Banner of Rage. i call it a Dog-Star! (feel free to groan, every one else does).

bork da basher
12-08-2009, 15:47
i'd not bother if the enemy has any kind of shooting ability, dogs die...well like dogs. i generally loose most or all of my puppyshield (4 units of 5) in the first two turns. it would be interesting to see it work, i know it can with dire wolves but dire wolves are way better than chaos hounds.

Chaos Undecided
12-08-2009, 16:01
As others have already illustrated they're arent all that great in a competitve setup.

Could make for a nice themed Horse Lords force though, pity there isnt a Marauder chieftain anymore who'd fit better as a leader for such a force in my opinion.

Drachen_Jager
12-08-2009, 17:17
Chaos Knights are some of the best heavy cavalry in the game. Probably the best if you include points cost in the decision.

Marauder horse, all kitted out as you suggest are mediocre at best in the role you suggest.

Hmmm where would you rather spend points? Upgrading one unit of MH or bumping four units of Knights up to 6? I can assure you from personal experience that a unit of Khorne Knights is a pretty effective flanking unit and, without having tried your suggestion, I can without a shred of doubt say that for the points they will serve you better. Keep the MH light, they're good at it, they can take out warmachines and shooty troops just fine, leave the heavy lifting where it belongs, WoC has no shortage of hard hitting fast troops.

Avian
12-08-2009, 20:31
so, being core, i could run the unlimited amounts of smaller units and get the same if not better "bang for the buck" as i could with the huge one.
I think it would be more accurate to say that you would get lots, if not heaps better "bang for your buck" with multiple smaller units.

There should be no question that you will get more out of the same amount of points spent on smaller units.

Heck, if you wanted to have a hitty unit of Horsemen, try a unit of 6 or 7 with flails and the Mark of Slaanesh or Khorne, joined by an Exalted of Slaanesh on a Steed of Slaanesh and wielding a flail and not much more. Quite nasty in combat and if you want to the Hero can split off and attack something on his own. :)

Lord Hurin
12-08-2009, 20:53
So the consensus really is that MSU is better than rank and file? That's a shame...

Avian
12-08-2009, 21:11
We're talking cavalry here, not Marauder infantry. :p

Lord Hurin
12-08-2009, 21:31
We're talking cavalry here, not Marauder infantry. :p

I realize that, it's just that this kind of effectiveness (or ineffectiveness, rather) usually makes for min/ maxing. I find it too often that I see 2x 5 Marauder Horsemen or 2x 10 Chaos Warriors and the rest filled up with Chosen Knights, Chariots, massive Lords, etc.

Drachen_Jager
13-08-2009, 01:50
Almost all cavalry is less effective in ranks, the cost per trooper is just too high.

oninosweeney
13-08-2009, 05:30
So the consensus really is that MSU is better than rank and file? That's a shame...my sentiments exactly....

when i came over from 40k 3 years ago (okay, you can stop booing me now) and started my Ogre Kingdoms army (okay you can stop laughing at me now), the benefit of those 20 Gnoblar with rank bonuses were a god send. and when i hit Dwarfs or O&G or Skaven with their blocks, i just watch them add up a bunch of free CR, i was amazed. not playing those other armies i don't know the point costs, but a block of 5x4 Gnoblars is 42 points (with a Groinbiter)

but it seems that WoC does not fit into that same block concept; they are a more elite unit army then, needing small squads to get the job done.... so it kind of seems that i've just gone back to 40k in a way. hopefully this is just a WoC issue and not a WFB across the countries thing.... i'll have to expand my findings and see what's what.

thanks all.

Isabel
13-08-2009, 05:56
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. But I honestly dont see the shame in what they've done with WoC. The chaos mortals have always been about above average warriors seeking personal glory. It's only fitting that our warriors fight in small blocks so they can see combat and the favour of the dark gods, rather than sitting in a back rank, standing on their tippy toes asking the guy beside him "are we winning? Whats going on up there?"

Avian
13-08-2009, 09:30
With the first Chaos battle report for 5th edition, the Chaos player fielded a single unit of 5(!) Chaos Warriors. :D

oninosweeney
13-08-2009, 15:57
With the first Chaos battle report for 5th edition, the Chaos player fielded a single unit of 5(!) Chaos Warriors. :D

damn.... that is elite!!!

Caboose123
14-08-2009, 12:21
Chaos aren't supposed to need Rank Bonuses anyway?

I agree with Avian so far, if you can negate the enemys' ranks (which can be done by a small unit of 5-7) then the attacks of the Strong Unit (Chaos Knights, Ogres, Trolls, Chosen this list is endless for chaos) will be enough to win the combat, then when they flee the Marauder Horsemen can run them down with their 3D6 pursuit. Success!

Drachen_Jager
14-08-2009, 18:12
The other tactic that works well is to try to create a mass melee, if I can engage 3 opposing units with 3 units of Knights in one big combat I'll win combat by a pretty huge margin, I've won combat that way by 20 or more against unsuspecting opponents.