PDA

View Full Version : I need help with O&G vs DE or VC



FLESHGRINDER
11-08-2009, 17:47
My friend plays DE and VC; and I can't figure out how to beat him; mostly because O&G have terrible leadership, and I can never get into combat before my guys are run off the board, or he spawns some zombies behind a unit of mine; only to charge my guys into it.

Basically, its not fun to play against him. And I can't think of any ways to get around his limitless zombies to kill his general. Hopefully someone here will be able to tell me how to beat him. Also, I'm better at painting my guys than fighting with them, and I still suck at painting.

Here's what I currently own:
-1 mounted warboss
-1 warboss on foot
-1 blorc big boss
-1 orc shaman
-1 night goblin big boss w/ great weapon (but we play casually, so it doesn't matter if I use a great weapon on him or not. I've used him as a shaman too)
-10 orcs w/ choppa & shield
-10 orcs w/ 2 choppas
-1 orc standard bearer
-1 orc musician
-1 orc boss (the command group came as an additional sprue with the army box I got)
-5 goblin wolf riders w/ spears
-5 goblin wolf riders w/ bows
-20 night goblins w/ swords & shields
-20 night goblins w/ bows
-20 night goblins w/ spears & shields
-3 night goblin fanatics (but I have another round slotta base, and none of my friends mind that I use it as a fourth fanatic)
-10 blorcs
-1 orc boar chariot
-1 snotling pump wagon

I also have a box of 10 plastic blorcs and another box of 20 orcs that I still have to decide what to do with

I've posted threads like this before, but everyone always tells me to get squigs and more fanatics because they move compulsively, but I like having control over my army, and I already have to deal with Animosity checks

FictionalCharacter
11-08-2009, 18:00
what does he normally run against you?

FLESHGRINDER
11-08-2009, 18:23
the first time I played him he used that unit that can only be hit with magic weapons, and all I can remember from the next few games was zombies and skeletons holding up everything for the entire game while my army was being chased off the board

Da GoBBo
11-08-2009, 18:45
Personally I would advice to get your army to be as reliable as possible when playing these armies. At the moment you have a mixed army which has to rely on goblins, which spells bad news. I am not surprised you have problems versus these armies. Lets try to make this army more reliable.

First we need to know to help, besides you opponents regular list, what point value do you play at? I will aim for a 1000 points for now.

I see you have a bunch of orcs and an orc boar chariot. This is excellent! :) I would put all those orcs together and form them into a big block of 25-30 orcs. 30 orcs really scares the crap out of people. This unit should be a shield+choppa unit. You could use the 20 orcs you still have to paste to expand the 10 shield orcs you allready have to 30. It's worth it. If you don't want to do that yet, put those shield orcs at the front (and don't forget to point out the whole unit is equiped with shields at the start of the battle). Give this unit a full command and a big boss.

Orc boar chariot + orc = 85 points
30 orcs + shield + FC = 210 points
Black orc big boss + boar + heavy armour + enchanted shield + martog's best basha = 135 points

This is the most reliable core your army has to offer and costs you a 430 points. You can build a lot off different armies around these 2 units. Here my own aditions I found to be usefull at a 1000 points:
-A level 2 orc shaman with staff of baduumm: 140 points
-2 units of 10 black orcs with musician
-2x 5 wolfriders
-10 spiderriders

It's a bit weird, but very reliable and moves FAST. You don't have all of these units, but you wouldn't just want to copy just any list anyway. Lets see what we can do with your miniatures.

You have lots of goblins, so I take it you like them. Good :) they are lovely really. Not the most reliable things so you have to know how to abuse them best.

Night Goblins can have nets and fanatics. Fanatics are great, but both Dark elves and undead have the means to pull them out early on in the game. For this reason I have found them to be usefull when I am playing a more defending O&G army (yes, it is possible :) ). Judging by your initial post I think are the one which has to close in on them, so fanatics are not really the way to go because now you have to advance your army along with your fanatics. This is bad news and usually results in a lot of points wasted, not to mention the damage infilicted on your own units.

Night have nets, which are great. 20 NG with nets cost 95 points. Not to cheap but they can really be worth it. Your orc unit is quiet survivable so even if you opponent gets the charge, you can probably sit it out. If your gobins throw their nets there is really not a lot that will beat your orcs. If your opponent decides to charge the goblins, thats even better. Just flee.

2 x night goblins + netters + musicians = 2 x 99 = 198 points
2 x 5 wolfriders + bows + musician = 2 x 71 = 142 points
level 2 orc shaman = 100 points

At the moment I'm torn a bit. You like goblins, but more goblins probably won't serve you really well, so I would advice on getting more orcs. You allready have the mini's all you have to do is glue them together. :) If you could get 2 units of 10 orcs with 2 choppa's that would be great. Don't be afraid to proxy a bit, your still assembling your army.

2 x 10 orcs + 2nd choppa + musician = 2 x 65 = 130 points

This would put the army at a 1000 points exactely and I think it is big and still reliably.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your army. Ones you get into them, they are the best.

Da GoBBo
11-08-2009, 18:46
the first time I played him he used that unit that can only be hit with magic weapons, and all I can remember from the next few games was zombies and skeletons holding up everything for the entire game while my army was being chased off the board

Hmmm, sounds like you need looooots of magic defense. Which sucks. Don't really know how to help here yet.

rtunian
11-08-2009, 19:23
now i can't say anything for vs DE but...

against vc the biggest thing to keep in mind is the unbreakable-induced crumbling. when you win combat against undead, they lose a number of wounds equal to the difference in cr (less 1 if near the bsb. also these wounds can be regen'd). when a unit is destroyed, it cannot be invoked, so your goal is to win combat by alot.

sounds easy :p but how do i do it?

good old fashioned hammer and anvil strategy. combined charge with a unit that's got high static combat res and a unit that has a high number of attacks. you should always have outnumber, 3 ranks, and a standard in the anvil, and then however many kills you can pump out. flanking of course is helpful, but sometimes impossible

knowing what and when to dispel... vampires bring alot of magic to the table, and generally, players try to get you to use your dispel dice early on, then they nail you with a hard one (that's what she said). so you should just go ahead and let him cast if he's just invoking some ghouls or skellies. save your dice for hwen he tries to raise a unit of zombies behind you, or vanhel's something into you, or for when he drain's life or dark hand of death's, or invokes wounds back on a char. also miasma of deadly vigor... don't dispel this unless you expect the next turn to be charging or charged by a nasty unit that's w/in 6" of the cart

now, as for your units.......

from what you posted, it's no wonder you lose. 20 ng isn't going to do squat, especially without netters. you only have 2 groups of 10 orcs? ouch.

night goblin hw&s netters should come in 30-35s with 1-2 fanatics, and can do well against zombies & skellies, and sometimes ghouls. ng speargobs should be 21 7 wide, keep them cheap as redirector and cheap anvil and/or obstacle defender.

orc shield boyz should be US25-30 including characters, should not have a champion unless there is a bsb or shaman in the unit. orc 2x choppa boyz should not have chars in them and do well enough at us12. shield boyz can hold their own against most of the vc list.

biguns... 18 orc boy biguns 6x3 w/2x choppa, music, standard w/ banner of butchery... this unit can absolutely wreck ghouls and skellies. if you get the charge with this one, you have 18 ws3 s4 attacks, by the end of combat (unless you roll horribly) you'll have 2 ranks, outnumber, standard, and 7-14 wounds... that unit will crumble into nothing.

blorcs... i always run 10 blorcs w/ shields and warbanner. against vc this has not once let me down.

against nasties such as blood knights... use frenzy against them... bait with your fast cav at an angle, and flee from the charge that you force them to make, pulling them to the sides of the battlefield, and out of the fight for 1-3 turns. your giant will make short work of his vargulfs.

pump wagon... as a rule should be taken in pairs, since they are 2 for 1

spear chucka... pick up 2 of these. with even decent rolling you'll wreck blood knights, grave guard, and black knights with 'em

as for cairn wraiths and spirit host... you can defeat them with static combat res, or you can send a char wielding magic weapons at them. vc will undoubtedly try to dispel anything you cast at these ethereals

FLESHGRINDER
11-08-2009, 21:50
@Da GoBBo: I don't have 60 night goblins because I like them; I got 40 with the army box, and my friend bought me 20 more because he knew how much I hated painting them before I got a foundation paint (Warlock Purple does not go on easily with black primer)
@rtunian: My VC friend uses that banner that doubles unit strength; so his block of 20 tarpits count as 40. Also I only have the 2 units of 10 orcs because I really haven't bought much (the army box I got came with the 20 orcs)

Peril
11-08-2009, 22:01
Proxy dem boyz as Savage Orcs. Be sure to take the Spirit Totem BSB for magic defense. Pray to Gork (or possibly Mork).

FluidSpace
12-08-2009, 01:14
I like to run my goblins in units of 30 that way you get the static 5 (three ranks, outnumber banner) usually for the first two turns.

Urgat
12-08-2009, 02:02
I often face VC with my gobs, and I usually fare rather well against them (well, i got totally stomped to the ground a couple weeks ago, but heh, I took some orcsguess my army didn't agree to that :p). From my experience, most of the deal revolves around magic. I never do squat trying to cast things. Head'butt is nice because you can pick out the vampires, but other than that, you'll just deal casualties here and there taht will be raised back next turn. On the other hand, when I get undone, it's because the VC dude gets free reigns during the magic phase. Greenskin troops really aren't that bad against VC. Even your lowly gob unit can take on any VC troop bare the nastiest ones, and win. The thing is, it's pointless to win as long as you haven't locked the VC ability to raise. So you got to stack up your magic defense. The first thing I take against VC is the staff of sorcery. It's wonderful, it really helps against invocation spam, since it works on every single dispell attempt you try. The staff of sneaky stealing is also excellent since that's one less dice the VC player will use, which, in effect, is usually one less invocation attempt. Always good to take. Of course that means you must take two shamans. And as much as I don't use orcs, I do believe the SPirit Totem would be a huge help. Stick that in one very fat orc unit (regular one, so you can get lots of ranks for relatively cheap), and that should cover your dispell needs. Forget about dispell scrolls. One use crap like that are useless against spell spam, really.
As much as I love my all gob army (and I'm helped by very low rolls, which is why I'm rather successful against undead), I believe it's rather unrealistic to expect and win against VC with just them (If I do, it's, quite paradoxicaly, because I'm unlucky with dies, as I said). Thankfuly for you, you got orcs. The previous comments about large units is sound. 25+ orcs per unit is mandatory against VC, I believe. I kindda like units of 10 orcs as flankers when I do field orcs, but one combat lost and they'll fly because of that darned outnumber rule. No good. Also, greenskins are awefuly weak to banshee screams. You need numbers to counter it. Greenskins are awefully weak to wraith units in general actually, I'd rather face two units of bloodknights or two varghulfs than one ******* unit of wraiths. Sure static CR would be the end of it, but if you manage to pull a front charge on them with a RnF unit of yours, it's because the VC player screwed up somewhere. The units that could get them easily (charriots, squig hoppers, light cav) will either fly from terror, or be useless in combat and lose horribly (hoppers)
Same for charriots, during my last game, my general refused to charge three times in a row. If a charriot does not charge, it is not only pointless, but also a liability. Put a savage orc in there, or better leave it home. You don't need black orcs against VC, btw, so just lump them together with your regular orcs to increase their numbers. Your vanilla orc will make short work of about everything in the enemy army. Your specialised stuff (hoppers, artillery, etc) can take care of the really nasty things.

As for DE, well, I don't really have any advice, it's all up to how the game goes, a regular army can do well against them (I play them about as often as I play VC). Just keep in mind that you need large units. It's true for VC, it's also true for DE, and actually it's true against any other army out there. 25+ orcs, 30+ gobs (unless special case, like gobs with bows, or gob units meant to be sacrified, of course). Really, after a game against VC, I find playing against DE to be a breeze. Fighting VC is actually a strain for me, I never know if I'm going to manage even one charge...

FLESHGRINDER
12-08-2009, 03:06
@Urgat: Thanks for the advice; with those magic items, I should have a better chance in the future

FLESHGRINDER
12-08-2009, 05:41
And as much as I don't use orcs, I do believe the SPirit Totem would be a huge help. Stick that in one very fat orc unit (regular one, so you can get lots of ranks for relatively cheap), and that should cover your dispell needs.

How do I put the Spirit Totem on a unit of regular Orcs? the rules don't say I can buy a magic banner for orc Boyz unless they're Big 'Uns

rtunian
12-08-2009, 06:51
battle standard bearer.
typically put on a black orc big boss mounted on a boar, in a unit of 23-28 shield boyz, makes your +3 dd very hard to get rid of

Urgat
12-08-2009, 11:31
What he said. Next time I'm fighting against VC in a 2000pts game, I'm trying a BSB, savage orc warboss (in a charriot, with screamin' sword) and two shamans (probably all savage orcs and common-count-as-forest gobs, I don't like to forsake the fluff)

FLESHGRINDER
12-08-2009, 16:57
makes your +3 dd very hard to get rid of

What does +3 dd mean?

rtunian
12-08-2009, 17:24
3 dispel dice
i'm referring to dispel dice gained from mork's spirit totem, which is based on the unit's rank bonus. the cap of rank bonus is 3. so, you want to have 20 at least to get the maximum dispel dice bonus. however, if you have only 20, you lose 1 dispel dice after 1 death in the unit, so you want to have more than 20.

hence, having 25-30 "makes your +3 dd very hard to get rid of"

Urgat
12-08-2009, 18:21
Careful of being flanked, though, it's based on rank bonus, and not actual ranks.

FLESHGRINDER
12-08-2009, 18:48
3 dispel dice
i'm referring to dispel dice gained from mork's spirit totem, which is based on the unit's rank bonus. the cap of rank bonus is 3. so, you want to have 20 at least to get the maximum dispel dice bonus. however, if you have only 20, you lose 1 dispel dice after 1 death in the unit, so you want to have more than 20.

hence, having 25-30 "makes your +3 dd very hard to get rid of"

Where does it say that the cap is +3? I'm sorry if its obvious, I'm just not very good with the rules yet

Urgat
12-08-2009, 22:09
It doesn't say it caps at +3, but it uses the rank bonus, and you can't get more than 3 for those.

Dag
13-08-2009, 01:09
you need units of 25 boys min
25biguns with shield
25savage biguns with spears
18blorks with butchery
5savage biguns with whaag banner and lord on ironback / pig stikka

spirit totem running to where he gets the msot effect.

fill the rest of ur points with fast cav, a giant is surprisingly effective at picking up vampires and running off.

you cant compete in his magic phase without divoting mucho points.

you gota break him down in the first few rounds of combat. get like 10inch away, go waaagh and shatter through his skeles and ghouls. its hard but is a way i beat them. also lord on wyvern screamin sword charge into the vamps unit only getting the vamp lord in challenge range or allocating hits on him can do him in well. 10str10 hits tend to kill people.

Urgat
13-08-2009, 08:58
That challenge would most likely be met with the champion, though, and there you'd have the endless resurected champion/challenge again loop of death. Well, you'll get that either you challenge or not, anyway, I suppose.

SilentStalker
13-08-2009, 16:49
be tricksy and get a unit of wolfriders with champion and charge in the front with the wyvern. with any luck, they will pass fear due to the general being right beside them (frontal charge), then don't call a challenge. if his champ challenges, accept with the goblin champ, if no challenges are declared, just pump attacks from your general and wyvern into his lord!

Grimgormx
13-08-2009, 23:54
Just Go savage, orcs, boar riders, boss, even shamans, more attacks, inmune to psicology, they can eat a lot of bones, more than he can resurrect, always try to kill his necromancers first.

Grimgormx
13-08-2009, 23:58
Remember boars rided by savage orcs have 2 attacks !!! Use the Waaagh!

SilentStalker
14-08-2009, 03:43
better yet savage boyz with spears. 2 attacks from first AND second rank guys on top of being ItP. get in there and munch some ghouls!!!

Von Wibble
14-08-2009, 11:53
Against vamps the giant is pretty good

- He is practically unbreakable

- His main weakness, shooting, is non existant in the undead army (high ld means banshees aren't going to scare him

Just keep him away from wraiths and spirit hosts, and he should do very well.

Savage orcs are itp (until they lose a combat anyway). Sure they can be baited, but they're cheap and good enough to beat skeletons and zombies.

In a small game the vamps general is not so tough to take out.

Against dark elves - I think if anything this one is harder to win. I would definately look at the shooting phase as being useful - your war machines can do a lot of damage. I would then try to go for as many basic orc boys as I can and use numbers to my advantage.

FLESHGRINDER
15-08-2009, 02:02
I'm going to ask for a giant for christmas so I can be deff stompy against my friend's VC


Thanks for all the help guys, if I have any more questions I'll be sure to post them in this thread

Ubercarp
15-08-2009, 20:01
Get (or cobble together) a doom diver and learn how to use it. Use the table edges to figure your guesses. If you aren't playing on a 4ft x 6ft table then measure the table edges before your friend get there. Divide the table in to a grid in your mind and work from there. It's kinda like Battleship except you are looking at his board.
Remember, your your deployment is 12in. from your edge and so is his. The front of your doom diver is probably 4 to 6in. from your edge. So first turn a 30 to 32in guess should be on target with something in front of the Doom diver. Aim at a small cavalry unit and blast away. I've taken out many a knight or outrider in the first two turns. Against larger units it is less effective, but if his line is massed it should hit something even with scatter for the first several turns. If you get good at it, he will make a real effort to kill it and at that point he is responding to your strategy instead of the other way around.

FLESHGRINDER
21-08-2009, 01:59
That's a great idea Ubercarp; I'll have to try that for guessing range next time I play

Magx
22-08-2009, 06:09
I only read diagonnally the others post, but I will try to help you the better since I think I can because VC and DE are the armies against who I fought against the most (yes, I play O&G)

Against VC

The match up is really hard because of the unbreakable (and the fear if you don't have Gorbad or a High LD general) and the guy I play against has like 2 units of 30 skeletons so in combat, it's a loooong way to go especially if he manages to raise some skeletons...

Try to dispell him the most you can for the Raise Dead spell (I forgot the name.. Dance Macabre I think and the other one with a weird name)

Give the general a magic weapon because it will the ONLY thing that will hurt the banshee (and manage to have your general near the banshee so put him at leat on a boar)

Have a lot of magic and hope getting a lof of damage spells to soften up his troops

Same thing for the artillery

Agains DE

AVOID THE HYDRAS! ( I know it's hard, but the only thing that can kill it is having the whatever of Kaloth)

Even 25/30 Orcs unit cannot beat a Hydra (I tried) maybe sometimes but rarely) - regeneration 4+ is a pain

Try to Waagh a lot (the ability of the army + the spells) so if the guy begins first (wich is likely), he will advance about 10 inches... Waagh first turn and then spell Waagh!

Try to hit his warmachine with yours and hope to get the crew

Goblin Squig Hoppers can also try to take out warmachines

Take the Amulet of Protectyness and try to put your character with the amulet on his character with the Pendant of Kaleth and declare a challenge! : it will be an eternal dual ! (unless someone get really unlucky)

If one of your shamans is near of a shaman, DON'T DO A SPELL! (Ring of Hotek will own you)

That's about it...

kardar233
23-08-2009, 09:14
Just a thought; wouldn't you be able to kill a Hydra using the Collar of Zorga? It'll be hitting you on rerollable 6s, so it shouldn't do much, and you can grind it down slowly, especially as it won't reroll after the first turn.