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alphastealer
11-08-2009, 19:56
Being a loyal nid player for a number of years now I am really hoping for a good upgrade come the next codex.

Tyranids have been steadily getting weaker with each edition and I hope the tide is about to turn.

Let me give some examples:
In 3rd ed the warrior could be taken as a heavy support and given lots of heavy weapons. I used to love my 6 strong team with venom cannons sitting on a hill taking pot shots at troops and light tanks.

Then GW decided that it was too cheesy so they dropped it in the current edition. So imagine to my disgust when the new ork codex comes out and what do they get...A large mob of lootas with deffgunswho get D3 shots...sitting on a hill taking pot shots at troops and light tanks...makes you wonder.

Then there is the case of 3rd ed allowing 2x flying hive tyrants. Then GW decided that it was overpowered so they scrapped it in the current edition. So imagne once again to my disgust when the current new chaos codex was released that it allowed for 2x flying daemon princes..with more tools than a tyrant could wish for.

GW also didn;t like the way eldar players were spamming harlequins..so they screwed rending over and turned the genestealer into a mediocre marine with a bad save and no gun with a roulette chance of actually rending anything tougher than a rhino.

Please let us reclaim some of our lost prowess.

We need tyrants that actually make opponents knees shake.
Options to play large warrior broods without paying the earth for them.
Gaunts that are good for more than just dying and giving away KPs
Genestealers that are actually as good or better than howling banshees.
Lictors that can kill things before dying..or hopefully killing things and not automatically dying.
Fast attack choices that are actually much faster and more useful.
A flamer template weapon.
A feel no pain benefit
And a lot more T5!

You thoughts.

HsojVvad
11-08-2009, 20:06
Why alot more T5? I thought Tyranids were gaunts gaunts and more gaunts. They should die alot. But they should be cheaper, I say half the price for what they are now.

Do you want to run a MC army or a horde? I see you like Warriors,and I like them too, but not for the point costs so don't use them. They should be cheaper as well.

I don't know what they were like in 3rd edtion so I can't comment on them.

I also agree, Genestealers should be feared, and having the new rending rules tonded them down a bit, and a bit too expensive.

carldooley
11-08-2009, 20:14
Fluffwise, I would prefer for there to be some sort of rule for your build. If you are building a swarm force, you should be limited to a broodlord, a couple of genestealer squads, and swarm after swarm coming in via myscetic spore (deepstrike\without number). if you are taking a midlevel force, a force made of hive tyrants\warriors. and if you are taking a consumption level force, you should be able to take nidzilla, with only ripper swarms available for troops and maybe zoanthroapes as HQ forces.

or at least that is what I would like to see factored in in the next codex.

LonelyPath
11-08-2009, 20:19
I don't seen the need in having more T5 across the army list, but perhaps open the biomorph to increase T a little more to allow Tyrants and Warriors to take it (though at a fair cost as that one shouldn't be to cheap).

I'd drop Gaunts to 3 points and half the cost for their weapons.

Lictors are barely worth half their point value, they need a severe overhaul.

Stealers I'd like to see either boosted in stats and ability or dropped to about 11 or 12 points as they are now.

And let's not forget weapons actually capable of penetrating tanks properly, warp blast is good, but limited to to few models.

ehlijen
11-08-2009, 20:34
My thoughts?

Your wishlisting. Yes, the nids have a few problems. However, not all the things you listed are actual problems. It strikes me that you have a case of codex envy. What you must remember is that your flyrants can be alot nastier than the new CSM deamon princes (which are not T6 2+ to start with) and that lootas aren't nearly as resilient as warriors.

Rending needed the toning down, as it in its 4th ed form, it just bypassed too many defensive mechanisms. Maybe stealers need a new cost because of that, but I think between the new scouting and feeder tendrils, they've gotten plenty better as well.

And I counter your more T5 with: Yes, make TMCs T5, please!

Seth the Dark
11-08-2009, 20:43
Tyranids don't need a new codex yet and they are still a viable army.

Spinegaunt01
11-08-2009, 20:53
We need tyrants that actually make opponents knees shake.
Options to play large warrior broods without paying the earth for them.
Gaunts that are good for more than just dying and giving away KPs
Genestealers that are actually as good or better than howling banshees.
Lictors that can kill things before dying..or hopefully killing things and not automatically dying.
Fast attack choices that are actually much faster and more useful.
A flamer template weapon.
A feel no pain benefit
And a lot more T5!

You thoughts.

Sadly as much as I want to climb the highest tower and call out for Tyranids to be the terror of 40k once more, I simply can't agree with what you are saying.

Under current conditions, a Hive Tyrant is still a terror due to the fact that is pretty much the only leader in the game that can fight on its own and not need support as it plows through squad after squad. With the introduction of running, foot combat Tyrants have made a reappearance in the game and doing what they have always meant to be done. I field a single Hive Tyrant and it does make my opponents tremble because this guy has a track record a mile long and it is a fairly common wonged combat set up. Back in 4th it was the only thing that could go toe to toe with those old style daemon princes and still come out on top. Little has changed and it still remains one of the most dominant Montrous creatures in the game.

For warriors, I can quiet happily field 23 of them and still have plenty of room for gaunts and such. I admit that I was only just starting the hobby proper at the end of the 3rd ed Nid book and new got a chance to field these 'hvy warriors' but, well, carnifexes were too appealing. Either way it is too late to really compare them to orks simply down to playing style and unit type.

Gaunts, well, they've always fied in droves and my frustration under 5th ed. conditions still remain that I can no longer tarpit thanks to a rule that once made large broods a nightmare to deal with but now simply kills them faster then I can roll the dice. It just annoys me that my beloved swarm took a serious kick in the tender area and won't be recovering anytime in the foresable future. R.I.P The swarm:cries:

Genestealers have pretty much replaced the gaunts as troops now and still is capable of hold their oen but being a shock unit mainly it suffers (like all Tyranids now) in bouts of prolonged combat. Either way the options available do grant improvements though at a premium.

When it comes to Lictors, they have moved far too much into a passive support creature due to combat pile in. It was always hard to make a lictor survive in 4th and now harder in 5th. Sometimes I wonder if all you are paying for is a creature that stands behind a combat to grant the feeder tendrils ability to the brood fighting while allowing you to re-roll reserves. Expensive, not really a combat creatue unless you take three and use them as a full brood. Not cheap at all though. This 'assassin' has been de-clawed but sometimes passive support can prove more helpful then an active one.

Fast attack. Well, Lets really not go their shall we. I share similiar gripes and long for the day when I can field my 13 raveners in one force once more without being simply gunned down.

There was this thing called a Strangler gaunt though it was one of those GW things they posted on their website (Not sure if it is still there) Gaunt with a template weapon. Expensive in pts, opponent permission but maybe worth a look into.

Feel no pain is a curse upon the system as a whole. Why give a unit a 50% chance to ignore a failed armour save? It makes a mockery of the system I feel and FNP is spreading as unit by unit seems to slowly be gaining access to a FNP option along the way.


As far as Tyranids go currently, certain aspects have taken a major hit with the introduction of the new ruleset but at the same time Tyranids are a race that can adapt and the number of upgrades available allows for these changes to be made. Yes at the end of the day you cannot field a 'true' Tyranid hoarde but you have the options present to make the most of cover, gaunt screens and such that you can still dish out a world of hurt.

Not everything is to everyone's liking but what can you do? Either stop using them until a time when something about them chanages or change your style of play to suit the new surroundings. Yes people will complain about the number of MCs you end up fielding but then again it's what is needed now to combat an increasingly mechanized game.

Those are my thoughts. Nids for my first army and even now in the new surroundings I make marines tremble though guard are suddenly becoming a bit of an issue. You know you are in for a rough time when they outnumber you 8:1 Scary :eek:

alphastealer
11-08-2009, 20:59
I will admit to a little codex envy. But only because (as I said above) things that were considered overpowered for tyranids and therefore dropped in the current codex were added to other codexes with little consideration to the same problem. And yes lootas are just as effective as a heavy brood of warriors was in 3rd ed. Same strength, same range. the only difference is the lootas have D6 shots. Cover makes the different model armour saves irrelevant.

I would be happy with a 'light' fex that has T5 and 3 wounds but gains WS5 and I4 and fleet with a 3+ save. Even if he can only take 2x scything I would be content.

Warriors need T5 if they are to retain their same save. Especially the flying version. T5 would make flying warriors more worth it. I do not mind if it must be bought as a bonded exoskeleton upgrade..I just want the option to do it.

T5 raveners would also make them live longer with their 5+ save. Ditto for lictors. The only T4 should be biovores, zoanthropes and genestealers.

Currently the warrior has T4 with immunity to instant death from double strngth weapons. This oddly makes them more survivable against lascannons than to bolters.

Rather change it to T5 with feel no pain. That way railguns can instant kill them and all AP1-4 can still negate their save, but it makes them more survivable to bolters and flamers which according to the fluff they should be.

I would also like to see W.O.N being upgraded so that when the brood loses models at the start of the next turn they automatically regain D6 models upto the maximum they started with. These models are placed in coherency and are immediately part of the brood for movement, shooting and assault.
If the brood is killed completely then this no longer applies.

Another idea is to allow one ravener in a brood for each 10 haumagaunts in that brood. That way they can live to see cc.

The same goes for shooty warriors in a gaunt brood, 1 for every 10 gaunts.

Make crushing claws X +D6 attacks instead of replacing the base attacks.

Give the broodlord fleet and warp field 5+ inv and we are all happy campers.

Ianos
11-08-2009, 21:05
First of all a couple of points to the OP

Tyrants are stronger than DPs in every respect, they can get a 2+ save, and a classic charging tyrant will most likely kill a DP in cc and the chances are very high that it will be in the first round possibly without even taking a wound.

Lootaz are neither customizable nor can fly, or are fearless forever. Stealers have outflank and infiltrate along with insane attacks and rending got toned down for EVERYONE.

I however agree that the tyranids have issues and i understand alphastealer skepticism. IMO Nids have to become more of a horde army with some allowance for a little nidzilla or warrior-stealer esque armies. Following the streamlining of 5th, fexes should become a little better with penetrating cannons but they should only be HS. Gaunts need -1/2 points, hormagaunts need 1/2 points cost.

I also agree with alphastealer's suggestions, especially on more T5 and FNP, i think the tyranid list should work like a food pyramid. On top are the few tough mostrosities and as we work our way down we see warriors and specialists with gaunt at the massive bottom.

Souleater
11-08-2009, 21:37
Lootas are for some reason an Elite choice. Alpha is talking about a Heavy Support choice.

As to the DP...what's his INV save? 2nd Ed Nids had a lot of Defensive upgrades - they could make Mid and MC Nids very hard to kill even in a game where a single Lascannon could potentially oneshot a Tyrant or Fex.

Third Rolled around and Tyranids became a lot more squishy. Warriors and Lictors dropped to T4, Fexes dropped to T6. Tyrants lost three points off their WS (hello the General of one of THE CC armies??? Hello?)

Other armies are seeing their Special Characters creep back towards 2nd Ed Herohammer levels....will Tyranids get the same treatment?

I wholeheartedly agree that the Mid range Nids should be T5 to offset the the fact that they are priority targets with poor armour (particularly a problem in assault.)

T5 would have solved the Krak and Fist issue without the silliness that Synapse 'immunities' gave Tyranids.

My wish is to see Nids become less shooty and much more fierce in assault.

blackjack
11-08-2009, 21:40
tyranids are not top tier anymore but they certianly are viable. The only thing they really need is a long range anti tank weapon.

Bolter Bait
11-08-2009, 21:56
Tyrants are much, much better than a DP. Both can be used alone or in conjunction with other assault units to absolutely break their target. However, a Tyrant can have frag equivalents for charging units in cover, Tyrants can have a retinue (something no Chaos HQ can) and they provide a fantastic Ld buff to units around them while having the option to debuff enemy units with passive psychic powers. Finally, unlike a DP, a Tyrant can make for a decent ranged unit, making them the masters of flexibility. Tyrants are great units for Tyranids. Yes, Chaos can take 2x Flying Lash Princes, which is a bugger, but we don't need that cheese.

Heavy Weapon Broods were nice, I don't think we need them, nor is the game balanced for them right now. VCs are terrible AT weapons and mostly overkill enmasse against most infantry. And a brood of BS Warriors would, frankly, be sick, obscene and insane. In addition to hitting the target, a brood of BS warriors would have a very good chance of threatening all units within 11.5-12.5 inches of the actual target, given the size of the blast (2/3 chance of scattering, scatter distance being 0-10" and then a 2.5" radius of the blast). So a brood of BS warriors would actually be a terror on the table with the ability to potentially hit, wound and pin all non-vehicle units within a 23-25" diameter circle EACH Shooting Phase.

As for your other concerns, most just seem like powergamey wishing. FNP seems like too much, but replacing the "Eternal Warrior" part of Synapse with the current Catalyst power (always on), would give a situational boost. Frankly, we're almost never beat in the Initiative game, but sometimes we may find ourselves going 2nd. Granted, with the lost of Eternal Warrior, Warriors and other mid-range bugs need protection or it's 3rd Ed all over again with almost no one taking Warriors, Lictors, Zoanthropes and Raveners.

A logical stat-line progression would help fix this, leaving MCs tough and nearly invulnerable but for generic ID, large ones tough but vulnerable to S10 and generic ID, medium creatures resilient and small ones extremely vulnerable.
T6, 3+ sv: MC
T5, 4+ sv: Large nids (i.e. Warrior)
T4, 5+ sv: Medium nids (i.e. Genestealers)
T3, 6+ sv: Small nids (i.e. gaunts)


I wholeheartedly agree that the Mid range Nids should be T5 to offset the the fact that they are priority targets with poor armour (particularly a problem in assault.)

T5 would have solved the Krak and Fist issue without the silliness that Synapse 'immunities' gave Tyranids.Whoo, someone who agrees that Eternal Warrior all over the board is silly.

Souleater
11-08-2009, 22:39
I do indeed but I also know that most enemy characters get to take INV saves against ID. Some are only a 5+ but that's still better than the best a Hive Tyrant or Carnifex can take.

Max Jet
11-08-2009, 23:05
My thoughts?

Your wishlisting. Yes, the nids have a few problems. However, not all the things you listed are actual problems. It strikes me that you have a case of codex envy. What you must remember is that your flyrants can be alot nastier than the new CSM deamon princes (which are not T6 2+ to start with) and that lootas aren't nearly as resilient as warriors.

Rending needed the toning down, as it in its 4th ed form, it just bypassed too many defensive mechanisms. Maybe stealers need a new cost because of that, but I think between the new scouting and feeder tendrils, they've gotten plenty better as well.

And I counter your more T5 with: Yes, make TMCs T5, please!

I was about to applaud you for that post but you... you just HAD to write the typical Imperial Guard statement down there... you just HAD to, didn't you?! XD


Whoo, someone who agrees that Eternal Warrior all over the board is silly.

I agree to that too, but I cannot help myself but to think it is nice and fluffy, imagening a half blown apart Tyranid warrior who still tries to crawl up to the enemy.. or better his limbs. Speaking from a balance point. This will unnecessarily reduce the damage dealt by basic infantry weaponry which still is weak in my opinion (especially lasguns)

catbarf
11-08-2009, 23:06
Currently, the problem with a lot of units (especially Tyrant and Warriors) is the fragility. Warriors get fragged quickly due to a lack of armor and T4, and Tyrants have no shiny invulnerable save or high T to keep them from harm. They're even 3+ save by default, and need an upgrade to be at all viable. If you take a retinue, you only hinder your own maneuverability.

The problem with Genestealers and Gaunts is that their offensive abilities do not justify the price. Rending's been nerfed, and Gaunts have been made easier to kill in large numbers. In order to be really viable, both need to become able to do damage proportional to the price. A big advantage of the Nids used to be how so many had Fleet. With the new ability to run, it's no longer as useful, and Genestealers, Gaunts, and Hormagaunts have suffered for it.

Other than that, some reliable AT would be nice. But the flaws with the Tyranids are due to mediocre stats, not broken special rules or useless units (Well, maybe the Lictor...), which is for the best. It means that GW might actually fix them.

Revelations
11-08-2009, 23:34
I got tired of wish listing and eventually made my own codex. Not everyone will agree with me, like I won't agree with many people on many points. But until GW comes out with the update, I'll be sticking to mine. Eventually you reach the line where you either decide to keep wishing, or do something about it. And who knows, your ideas spread around enough, maybe GW will snag a few. ;)

IhasAshuvel
11-08-2009, 23:41
Psst, the main problem with the nid list is that one aspect where it is entirely unique - lots of mid-sized units (T4, with 2W) - are actually overcosted by about 10-20 points and are the source of the abomination that is synapse.

If all the mid ranged creatures were T5 the problem [of instant death] goes away and at the same time you suddenly have a lot of T5 models that can either move very quickly or pack some pretty chunky firepower.

+1 save to the warriors/ravenors as base and you'll go a long way to fixing each of them on an individual basis, a couple costs tweaks here and there and you're golden.

ehlijen
12-08-2009, 00:20
I was about to applaud you for that post but you... you just HAD to write the typical Imperial Guard statement down there... you just HAD to, didn't you?! XD


With that setup, how could I not have :p

Egaeus
12-08-2009, 00:23
A logical stat-line progression would help fix this, leaving MCs tough and nearly invulnerable but for generic ID, large ones tough but vulnerable to S10 and generic ID, medium creatures resilient and small ones extremely vulnerable.
T6, 3+ sv: MC
T5, 4+ sv: Large nids (i.e. Warrior)
T4, 5+ sv: Medium nids (i.e. Genestealers)
T3, 6+ sv: Small nids (i.e. gaunts)

Whoo, someone who agrees that Eternal Warrior all over the board is silly.

I have been saying this for years...I would also point out that the wound progression also follows nicely.

Not sure if you're "all over the board" comment was meant solely for 'Nids or a general complaint against it showing up across the game. The thing is the mid-range 'Nids needed something to make them more useful. I would also stress that this is applies to a specific range of 'Nid models...Monstrous Creatures are already tough enough to not have to worry about normal ID (although the immunity to Force Weapons and the like is nice, especially considering the lack of Invulnerable Saves), and for 1W models it isn't a concern at all. Although you could limit Eternal Warrior to Tyrants and 'Fexes if it was deemed necessary.

But the simple boost in T would solve a great many problems while allowing them to drop some of the special rules that end up cluttering things up (especially the attrocious wording on the ID immunity that ended up creating arguments and eventaully lead to the FAQ giving them blanket immunity to ID).

Putty
12-08-2009, 01:27
We need tyrants that actually make opponents knees shake.

They still do. So I don't know what you are on about. They always get shot up first no?


Options to play large warrior broods without paying the earth for them.

You mean $$$ wise or points wise? $$$ wise yes they are expensive to purchase, points wise true. You are paying Terminator points for something that only has a 4+ save.

But seriously you don't want units of Warriors bigger than 5 - 6 models walking around. They are on Terminator bases and moving pass, through and around terrain with them are a hassle.


Gaunts that are good for more than just dying and giving away KPs

What? That is what they are supposed to do.


Genestealers that are actually as good or better than howling banshees.

Howling banshees have Wave Serpents to hide within, that is what makes them good.

Tyranids have no transports so there isn't comparison.


Lictors that can kill things before dying..or hopefully killing things and not automatically dying.

It does, you just need to target the right things.


Fast attack choices that are actually much faster and more useful.

Never tried Gargoyles I reckon?


A flamer template weapon.

Don't need it.


A feel no pain benefit

Don't need it.


And a lot more T5!

Already have it. 8 TMCs at 1.5k points... what more you want?

Cpt. Castus
12-08-2009, 01:46
In regards to the immunity to ID, what would you guys think about synapse causing nids under its effect to count as +1 Toughness for the purposes of ID?

e2055261
12-08-2009, 01:50
Oh really Alphastealer I don't think Tyranids need to win more easily with all of the things that you suggest! Sure the codex needs upgrading but let's not get silly.

catbarf
12-08-2009, 01:52
What? That is what they are supposed to do.

Suck a lot and give the enemy free KP?


Howling banshees have Wave Serpents to hide within, that is what makes them good.

On the contrary, they at least can do some damage.


Already have it. 8 TMCs at 1.5k points... what more you want?

Viable armies that aren't Nidzilla?


In regards to the immunity to ID, what would you guys think about synapse causing nids under its effect to count as +1 Toughness for the purposes of ID?

The issue isn't exclusively Instant Death, it's that the units that need to lead the army are just too fragile to do so. Warriors could really use a T boost to be able to survive Bolter fire.

PhalanxLord
12-08-2009, 04:13
I think a lot of people are overreacting to current nids. Stealers are still good because they can have cheap feeder tendrils. Without them though they're massively overcosted. Warriors need a points break because right now they cost a lot and die easily. Someone mentioned lootas before. A nid warrior with +S, ES, ST, and a VC is 43pts IIRC. Thats nearly 3 times what a loota costs. Two lootas are essentially just as tough and have the potential to deal out a lot more hurt (and on average will deal out more hurt).

I'll agree that immunity to instant death was stupid. Back when 3rd was out a lot of people said that they should give warriors T5 instead of immunity to instant death due to S8+ weapons. I agree with that. I'd rather T5 over even immunity to all forms of instant death. It makes more sense that way. Also, I could do with no FNP. Perhaps just make Catalyst give a unit FNP until your next turn or something. Then it would actually be worth something. As for Tyrant.... I'd like warp field to become a 5+ invulnerable. Other than that, I think tyrants are fine. I doubt we'll be seeing the return of multiple flyrants because its so much better than using walkrants with guard its not funny. In fact, I fear they might even raise the price of wings for them because they're so prevalent.

I'd also like to see zoans get BS4. Right now they're expensive and they don't hit anything. Ravs should also get cheaper and tougher. Right now they're too easily killed.

Personally the best idea I've seen is for all middle sized d00ds to become T5 with a 4+ save base. Thats good enough that we can get rid of the stupid immunity to instant death. Having armies full of EW makes it a boring mechanic rather than the interesting one that it should be.

Egaeus
12-08-2009, 05:16
Well, with the way the last few Codexes have given a general price reduction to units plus the changes from 4th to 5th Edition (a big one being Run) the 'Nids are generally overcosted as it stands. So a reduction in cost is only appropriate. Now where those reductions are made and by how much is open to debate.

Also with the way the Codexes are being written I would expect to see army variation based on the selection of leaders...so something like the flyrant allowing Gargs to be troops or opening up other "winged" options in the list. To me, it says something is wrong with the other choices if people aren't taking them. It's not that Flyrant is too good, it's that the other choices don't have what it takes. Perhaps they need to split the Tyrant out into variations and allow it's specific weapons/upgrades be determined by its type...while I don't necessarily care for this, it's a thought that would allow them to make different variations on the Tyrant fit different roles. On the other hand it takes away a great deal from the concept of the mutability of the Tyranid race.

drummerholt1234
12-08-2009, 05:32
In reality the Tyranid codex only needs 4 things:

1. Small point Balances and unit reworking but no major overhaul (Lictor, Warriors, ect...)
2. The gaunt section redone (something like the 3rd Edition Create your own have entry)
3. Synapse redone (to take away no retreat wounds; something like calgars god of war rule)
4. A ranged weapon that can take out tanks from range. I suggest something like the biocannon on the titan but have it take up 2 weapon slots on a MC.

Thats all it need seriously no Tyranid player should be crying or ranting about anything. They are one of the most flexible armies in the game and are still viable. They just aren't the "Noob" army where you could pick nidzilla list and table everyone in 4th Edition. They actually take some skill now ;)

catbarf
12-08-2009, 05:39
One way to give Nids good long-range AT would be to reintroduce one of the bio-titans, perhaps an Exocrine, as a large plastic kit in the vein of the Baneblade.

mattschuur
12-08-2009, 05:52
My ideas-

Simple fix to Syanpse, make it "If at least one synapse creature is on the board, all Tyranid models in the army gain the Fearless special rule. If no Syanpse creatures are on the board, then the Tyranids revert to the normal leadership rules" Note- This fixes the odd current synapse rules and allows mobile units to range ahead without fearing a LD 5 or less leadership check.

Tyrants- Same points, but come standard with Scything Talons and Devourers. Upgrade from their. BS 4 base. Option for 2+ save only for foot tyrant.

BroodLord- allow him to fleet. Other than that he's fine.

Warriors- Keep T4 but give a 4+ armour, BS 3, Scything talons and Devourers base for 20 points each. Keep as Synapse.

genestealers- keep statline same, get rid of feeder tendrils or only allow the stealers to reroll to hit on the charge. Allow two rending claws, which is what stealers seem to have base to reroll to wound and allow option to replace one set of claws for talons, +1 attack. Reduce to 15 points. Limit to 12 a unit. Troops, but also as elites if Broodlord is taken.

Gaunts- will be helped by auto fearless, fleshborer and spine gaunts should be 5 points base. Devourer gaunts should be 6 pts with S3 guns base. Hormaguants stay same stats and equipment but gain Furious charge and drop in points to 10.

Lictors- Change rules to Marbo's deployment but allow them to assault after doing so. Allow double rending claw like stealers, reroll to wound, with feeder tendrils. Hit and run. stay the same price.


Zoeys- Allow them to just auto hit with AT shot, but make it a lascannon, blast stay the same but must make pyschic tests for "both". Synapse.

Gargoyles- just make them plastic. Otherwise they're not bad, maybe down a point or two.

Ravenors- slight points decrease and of all the "mid" level nids, make these guys T5. Same as Genestealer for weapons.

Biovores- Take away spore mines completely. Give them 3 options in the shooting phase. Krak mines- Small blast, S6 Ap 4 Heavy 1. Frag mines- Large blast S4 Ap 6 Heavy 1 barrage. And allow them an acid flamer attack. Template, poisoned on 3+ S1 Ap 3.

Carnifexes- Keep as elites but those only have base statline, no options for T7, 2+ armour etc. Come standard with double scything talons base for 90 points. Option for TL Devourer (only 1) to replace a scything talon for like 5-10 points. Carnifexes also get 3 attacks base. Heavy fexes have all options. Take away Twin linking for weapons or just reduce the points to do so.

Misc- Allow Venom Cannon to Penetrate.

Personally, I think the wide range of optional bio-morphs will be gone or at least put into the units special rules base. The whole +1 bs, ws, and In was a bit to much. Fexes should be BS 2, Tyrants 4, warriors and gaunts 3. The simple and easy fix to synapse i think will work smoother and takes away potentially watching you hormagaunts have to roll a LD3 to break from combat. Comments?

matt schuur

ReveredChaplainDrake
12-08-2009, 06:45
Tyranids have again fallen into the classical Darwinism trap. Namely, when it becomes a game of "survival of the fittest", everybody starts looking the same when all the unique (read: crappy) guys all go extinct. Thus, Tyranids only have a few good units, one good build, and suffer greatly from rock-paper-scissors, with their particular anathema being Mech. (Did you see the last Tyranid batrep in White Dwarf? Even Phil Kelly, the creator of the Tyranid Codex, realizes that the only good things in the codex are MCs and Genestealers, making it no surprise to see his list stacked full of them!)

Rending units must get cheaper. The 4th ed Rending rules were pretty hardcore. However, with Tyranids, they were actually priced pretty appropriately. With 4th ed Rending, it wasn't really a question of how inefficient a 45-pt Warrior is when he can kill any 1-wound model on a roll of a 6 to hit. As it is now, Tyranids pay 4th ed's premium points cost for 5th's worse rule. Remember what it was like seeing 4th ed Daemonettes (from the 5th ed Daemon Codex) rend through entire units during the brief period in between their release and the release of the 5th ed rulebook? Flip that backwards for Warriors.

The exception to Rending stuff getting cheaper is Genestealers. With the change to Scouts allowing Outflank, they're the one Tyranid unit that actually got better, while the rest of the codex either went to crap or just shifted horizontally. If nothing at all changes with Genestealers next codex, I'd be happy. Not to say that Feeder Tendrils should really be that cheap, or that Carapace should really be that expensive, but the raw total of points should remain the same, give or take a point or so.

Gaunts are commonly compared to Ork Boyz when they simply don't measure up. A fairer comparison is a Boy to a Genestealer and a Gaunt to a Grot, as this is more in line with their roles in their respective armies. Even though Orks still win the comparison, that's no shame to the Tyranids; the designers were smoking some mighty-powerful crap when they wrote the Ork codex, but that's another thread. Similarly, the Kill Point issue is also screwed up, but that too is another thread. What Gaunts need to do the job you buy them for is some way to mitigate No Retreat. Some ideas I thought of:
-"Symbiote Rippers" joined to the Gaunt units, either being real Ripper Swarms that abuse Wound Allocation, or tokens that subtract 1 from the No Retreat wounds each.
-Catalyst reworked to ignore No Retreat wounds on the unit it gets cast on.
-Gaunts (and all Tyranids) go to Ld10 base, but are subject to "Rage" when not in synapse range. Synapse (and Brood Telepathy) changed to confer "Stubborn" and removes "Rage".

Venom Cannons are a really easy fix. Just change "always Glance" to "always Obscured". It's a simple mechanical differentiation between the editions. Basically, Venom Cannons always count their target Vehicle as having Hull Down. Thus, change the rules to fit. There's another thought process going around to make VC shots count like Thunder Hammers, always causing Crew Shaken on any hit roll but leaving the Always Glance, but the former is far simpler.

Raveners need to be more like Warriors. As it stands, Raveners can't have any stat upgrades of any kind. In particular, if you could give Carapace to Raveners, even if they only wound up conferring a 4+ save, I bet you'd see a lot more Raveners running around. Ideally though, for what they cost and for what Rending does (or doesn't do) this edition, maybe a base 4+ would be more appropriate for what you spend.

Biovores need to not suck. There's a laundry list of ways to do this, as it's pretty tough to make Biovores any worse than they are.

Gutlord Grom
12-08-2009, 07:06
My ideas-
Simple fix to Syanpse, make it "If at least one synapse creature is on the board, all Tyranid models in the army gain the Fearless special rule. If no Syanpse creatures are on the board, then the Tyranids revert to the normal leadership rules" Note- This fixes the odd current synapse rules and allows mobile units to range ahead without fearing a LD 5 or less leadership check.

I'd have to disagree with this idea. First it make it all too easy for any Tyranid player to park a Zoanthrope in cover in his deployment zone and have a back-up in case his opponent managed to wipe out the Synapse creature that are actually assaulting his lines and eating his face. While an extended range for Synapse might be better, keeping just one creature alive kinda negates the point of it being one of the major lynchpins of the list, and makes it actually a good idea to take Synapse creatures to back up your troops(which you should do anyway).


My ideas-
Tyrants- Same points, but come standard with Scything Talons and Devourers. Upgrade from their. BS 4 base. Option for 2+ save only for foot tyrant.

I'm not sure there'd be a point in upgrading the BS of the Tyrant on base, since most Nid lists I see tend to pick either a ranged Tyrant or melee Tyrant and often don't try to mix the two. I think the enhanced senses upgrade works, primarily your not paying for it unless you need it, unlike a base upgrade which would add points to the base cost. I agree on the base weapons.

My ideas-
BroodLord- allow him to fleet. Other than that he's fine.

Kinda iffy on this, since outflank can cut out most of the distance he would to cross. But I agree to an extant.

My ideas-
Warriors- Keep T4 but give a 4+ armour, BS 3, Scything talons and Devourers base for 20 points each. Keep as Synapse.

I'd see maybe twenty five-thirty points(possibly more) with that base line and weapons, since they get a good deal better at killing infantry.

My ideas-
genestealers- keep statline same, get rid of feeder tendrils or only allow the stealers to reroll to hit on the charge. Allow two rending claws, which is what stealers seem to have base to reroll to wound and allow option to replace one set of claws for talons, +1 attack. Reduce to 15 points. Limit to 12 a unit. Troops, but also as elites if Broodlord is taken.

I'd like to keep the feeder tendrils since a re-roll , especially in a decent melee unit, should cost something. I'd keep the single set of rending claws honestly, since again re-rolling wounds is another valuable thing that jacks up points. I'm not sure you need genestealers in Elite slots, since that be a possible nine units, all of which can outflank and includes two Broodlords. Make Stealer shoch assault lists more powerful.

My ideas-
Gaunts- will be helped by auto fearless, fleshborer and spine gaunts should be 5 points base. Devourer gaunts should be 6 pts with S3 guns base. Hormaguants stay same stats and equipment but gain Furious charge and drop in points to 10.

Synapse essentially gives Gaunts fearless normally, so I'm not sure giving them auto fearless would make that much sense. I agree that Termagaunts and Spinegaunts should be a few points cheaper, but on the flipside, should lose Without Number since it be easier to take more and larger broods in troop slots. I'd say furious charge on Hormagaunts would be pointless since they're already Initiative 4.

My ideas-
Lictors- Change rules to Marbo's deployment but allow them to assault after doing so. Allow double rending claw like stealers, reroll to wound, with feeder tendrils. Hit and run. stay the same price.

Don't they already have Marbo's deployment in a sense, since they can deploy in any terrain piece of their owner's choosing? And I'm sure they can assault the turn they appear too. Again I'd say no stacking rending claws since again, feeder tendrils already provide one re-roll. Hit and run makes sense.

My ideas-
Zoeys- Allow them to just auto hit with AT shot, but make it a lascannon, blast stay the same but must make pyschic tests for "both". Synapse.

No. Just no. An auto-hitting las cannon would be silly, and not even a psychic est makes that even slightly balanced.

My ideas-
Gargoyles- just make them plastic. Otherwise they're not bad, maybe down a point or two.

Agreed with wholeheartedly.

My ideas-
Ravenors- slight points decrease and of all the "mid" level nids, make these guys T5. Same as Genestealer for weapons.

I'd say increase armor, decrease armor, and let them assault on the turn they deep strike. I'd be against giving them Toughness 5.

My ideas-
Biovores- Take away spore mines completely. Give them 3 options in the shooting phase. Krak mines- Small blast, S6 Ap 4 Heavy 1. Frag mines- Large blast S4 Ap 6 Heavy 1 barrage. And allow them an acid flamer attack. Template, poisoned on 3+ S1 Ap 3.
Keep Spore mines, just don't make them count as a KP, and the utility comes back a little bit.


My ideas-
Carnifexes- Keep as elites but those only have base statline, no options for T7, 2+ armour etc. Come standard with double scything talons base for 90 points. Option for TL Devourer (only 1) to replace a scything talon for like 5-10 points. Carnifexes also get 3 attacks base. Heavy fexes have all options. Take away Twin linking for weapons or just reduce the points to do so.

I kinda prefer the idea of making Carnifexes slot choice based on points. I think keeping the point cost for most of the upgrades would be a good idea.

My ideas-
Misc- Allow Venom Cannon to Penetrate.

Waffeling on this one. Venom cannons are the Nid's main ranged heavy weapon, so I'd would say yes on that, even if I'd like a point increse on it then.

My ideas-
Personally, I think the wide range of optional bio-morphs will be gone or at least put into the units special rules base. The whole +1 bs, ws, and In was a bit to much. Fexes should be BS 2, Tyrants 4, warriors and gaunts 3. The simple and easy fix to synapse i think will work smoother and takes away potentially watching you hormagaunts have to roll a LD3 to break from combat. Comments?
matt schuur
I think bio-morphs will stay, even if they are slightly reduced, but I doubt they'll be made a permanent part of individual units, but I don't doubt they'll be fewer of them. I still disagree with your idea of synapse. As to your Hormagaunts breaking from combat, I've seen the same thing happen with Grots so it's not like this some special thing that only affects them.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-08-2009, 07:47
I agree that either the toughness needs to be improved or the saves need to get better. Generally what strikes me most about the nid list is its lack of anti-tank options outside of MCs. While that is perfectly reasonable, the main area I think TMCs fail is their lack of invulnerable saves. The hive tyrant and fexes especially are way too vulnerable to lascannon-type weaponry.

Justice And Rule
12-08-2009, 08:07
My look:

- Move towards a more horde-like army. With Guard, you by platoons, not individual squads. 'Nids should follow the same sort of idea, with 1-3 broods of gaunts or hormagaunts led by some Warriors.
- Standardization. Biomorphed units would take up an individual troop choice unlike the new "mega-broods", but they'd have access to kits like Imperial Guard veterans.
- T5 Raveners and Warriors. 4+ Save, as well. I think that this is pretty obvious, as they are way, way too weak and vulnerable as they are right now.
- Elite Carnifexes should not be cheap Carnifexes, but rather very unique, specialized Carnifexes.
- Improve Biovores. 1 HS choice for 1-3 Biovores, with different variations. I'd love to see a Flamer-vore and a dedicated Anti-Tank Vore. I don't think you need to change their stats, as it gives them vulnerability to offset their usefulness within a 'Nid army. Also, I'd love to see them to be able to move and fire no matter what; sort of a unique feature to them. Considering Spore Mines (Which also need fixing) float down and move on their own accord, the actual accuracy of the Biovore isn't as integral to the process as it is with a Basilisk.
- Improved Lictors. Power Weapon strikes, along with some sort of improved vehicle penetration and a better save. Also, fix it so it works with Deep Strike under these rules (I've seen "Marbo Rules" suggested). Right now, they're way too fragile to be useful. I've seen them get beat-up by a 5 Man Space marine squad with alarming regularity. That shouldn't happen.

I've got more, but those are the ones that come to mind.

TheShadowCow
12-08-2009, 10:10
- A minor point reduction on Lictors, Warriors and Raveners, Hormagaunts and Ripper Swarms
- A rule that partly mitigates the losses suffered from Gaunts and Rippers by combat resolution
- A rule enhancing the cover Gaunt screens provide to other Tyranid units behind them (much more fluffy than just making Tyranid Warriors T5)
- Completely re-work Biovores
- Minor combat enhancements on the Lictor and Genestealer - some sort of in-combat Dodge save?

A special mention too...

- Plastic Gargoyles (!!)

Vaktathi
12-08-2009, 10:16
Then GW decided that it was too cheesy so they dropped it in the current edition. So imagine to my disgust when the new ork codex comes out and what do they get...A large mob of lootas with deffgunswho get D3 shots...sitting on a hill taking pot shots at troops and light tanks...makes you wonder.
You are talking about 7 years of design philosophy difference between the 3E tyranid book and the current Ork book, and 3 years between the current Ork book and Tyranid books.



Then there is the case of 3rd ed allowing 2x flying hive tyrants. Then GW decided that it was overpowered so they scrapped it in the current edition. So imagne once again to my disgust when the current new chaos codex was released that it allowed for 2x flying daemon princes..with more tools than a tyrant could wish for. Hardly, a Hive Tyrant has a greater variety of options and will generally trounce a DP one on one.




GW also didn;t like the way eldar players were spamming harlequins..so they screwed rending over and turned the genestealer into a mediocre marine with a bad save and no gun with a roulette chance of actually rending anything tougher than a rhino. True, they handed out Rending to everything that they wanted to make killy without powerweapons, but let's be honest, anything that simply relies on rolling a bucketful of dice and pulling out the 6's is a pretty lame mechanic in the first place for the most part, and old rending didn't take into account WS or T, it simply auto-hit and wounded on a 6.



We need tyrants that actually make opponents knees shake. Um, if they don't now, you are doing it wrong. I never gleefully look at a Hive Tyrant and think "this isn't going to hurt me".

Dark Primus
12-08-2009, 10:25
Tyrants are stronger than DPs in every respect, they can get a 2+ save, and a classic charging tyrant will most likely kill a DP in cc and the chances are very high that it will be in the first round possibly without even taking a wound.


I haven't lost a DP with mark of Tzeenth in CC to a HT or Carnifex yet. 4+ Invulnerble save is a saver.

Dark Primus
12-08-2009, 10:27
So imagne once again to my disgust when the current new chaos codex was released that it allowed for 2x flying daemon princes..with more tools than a tyrant could wish for.

Whaaaat? :wtf: The Hive Tyrant has far more options to choose from then the current CSM DP has. The HT has better survival gear then any DP from either the CSM or Daemon codex.

Ulrig
12-08-2009, 10:51
Here are some of my rants

Warp field should be a 5+inv save, 6 is just cruel

Broodlord should have more options...should have Fleet ffs

Warp Blast is way too costly for something you have to roll leadership on...then roll a 4+ to hit at a mediocre range

CC nexs are completely worthless imo. Yeah they can take out tanks just like you can crush a soda can on asphalt...but so can ranged nexs. The only difference is w/ranged nex you can shoot at a tank per say a few turns before you have to charge it. With crappy WS and I, the only thing ur opponent will let you fight it with will most likely hit it with power weapons and attack at the same time...if not before. I cannot stress enough how much these suck. Something needs fixed here.

Stealers are way to costly for what they are now in this edition. Cheaper or more survivability would work.

Ravenors need more survivability.

Lictors need one fix....something that gives them somewhat of a chance to survive after that initial round of combat. Hit and run that applies to vehicles would be a nice start. The last game I played my lictor deep striked in behind a land raider and took it out turn 2. After that he just stood there to get shot.....a lot.

Gaunts just need to be slightly cheaper

Biovores are hardly worth taking.....even if they were free I would have to think about it.

fast attack options **** me the f off.

genestealer_baldric
12-08-2009, 11:43
Hive Tyrant personally i cant find anything wrong with it except to be produced in plastic and i would love the ablity to have 2 flying ones. I surpose Depending on HQ it could give the rest of the army certain boots like won gaunts of better sysnapse etc..

Warriors seem to get a bad press but i love them but have to be used properly to gain back there costs. Maybe just add the ablity to make them have a 3+ save and come as T5 standard, becuase these are often a weaker choice for hq than a tyrant.

Broodlord should be an upgrade like snickrot for a brood of stealers and allow him the fleet as a upgrade like leaping. he should also stay the same points cost becuase the buff he provideds

As for alpha lictor ???? they are soiltary critters maybe 2 at most not in charge of a fighting section, they are basically spies/assains not genrals, it like telling a death cult assain to take control of a battle group it just will not happen. But lictors are very good all i think they need is +1 strenght and drop points by around 15 they are great but points limit there use on TT.

Elite Carnifexs as much as i have an obsession with them and allways need more i think this is a poor idea, but are used due to rubbish other ellites choices in many peoples mind. if They stay they should only be screamer killers.

It surpises me that for surposesly one of the fastest armies our FA options suck realy bad, Raveners are far to expensive and fragile for what they do they are only now acceptable due to planetstrike. they need to be able to assualt right out of the ground like they do in all the fluff, if this was changed and a price drop of around 10pts they would be used alot more.

Gaygoyles FAR FAR FAR to expensive in money Ģ160 for a squad of gaunts ????? the points are also to much for a flying gaunt with no real save and will very quicly loose synape control. Solution make them in plastic drop them to 8pts and bring back hive node for the swarm like a sargent upgrade.

Carnifex heavy no ive not not much to say for these love the model love the options, i would like a anti av 14 gun but i want nids to the best CC army not a quite good shooting army. I dislike the idea of broods of them so you can have 9 in Heavy selection is a very very bad idea.

Biovores well lets be honest they are currently a joke, expensive rubbish ammo 1 shot each, they need a compleate rework of be dropped straight away. they dont inspire me in anyway shape of form and dont care for them at all.

Gaunts i love these little blighters but the no retreat wounds are realy realy damining on them make them all won free and keep current costs .Hormagaunts drop to around 7 points just above a boy due to 12" charge. i think the ablity to talior a basic gaunt into a hormagaunt garygole or normal is the way to advance rather than 3 seprate entries.

Genestelers need a significant price drop to around 10 points mainly due to i want it and they have lost the ablity to rip through tanks like they used to , i think giving them power weapons is bad idea becuase they dont have oposable thumbs and cant carry them. but i like these they just need a price drop


A few things that need to change over the whole army

No retreat why can no retreat wounds because a t7 critter to have to take 4 saves from str critters in a mass fight if more gaunts get squished

Nids should be one of the fastest armies and now run can mean a necron warrior keeping up with a stealer which i dont get at all maybe make all fleet moves in open terrain a 6" move rather than a roll of a die.

Shooting Vs CC. Nids should be best CC army out there and so need to gain a USR like beserk charge/counter charge or somthing or +2 attacks on the charge etc. but the shooting should be tonned down the prospect of having 78 blast markers in a army is just wrong for nids

Angelwing
12-08-2009, 12:29
Just going to respond to a few points here:


Warp field should be a 5+inv save, 6 is just cruel
Tyranids are about quantity not quality. you don't rely on a 6+ save, you rely on sending 3 models to do the job.



Broodlord should have more options...should have Fleet ffs
So outflanking him with a load of genestealers isn't enough? The fleet arguement would have held water in 4th edition, but not now.



CC nexs are completely worthless imo. Yeah they can take out tanks just like you can crush a soda can on asphalt...but so can ranged nexs. The only difference is w/ranged nex you can shoot at a tank per say a few turns before you have to charge it. With crappy WS and I, the only thing ur opponent will let you fight it with will most likely hit it with power weapons and attack at the same time...if not before. I cannot stress enough how much these suck. Something needs fixed here.

Disagree with you here. CC carnifexes got better with run. Ranged attacks from carnifexes simply don't 'crush tanks like a soda can'. They usually stun or remove weapons. CC carnifexes can squash landraiders with average rolls. I agree that getting them there is the problem, but again we now have run. As for power weapons, the carnifex can be made T7. Powerfists? Carnifexes can be made Int 2. Large units with hidden powerfists? send in the tarpit units and use the carnifex on better targets. Bad WS? WS4 and toxic miasma sorts that out.



Lictors need one fix....something that gives them somewhat of a chance to survive after that initial round of combat. Hit and run that applies to vehicles would be a nice start. The last game I played my lictor deep striked in behind a land raider and took it out turn 2. After that he just stood there to get shot.....a lot.


So your 80pt lictor bumped off a 250pt landraider and you're moaning because your opponent had the cheek to shoot at it? I agree that lictors are somewhat overpriced, but I think you will have to come up with a better reason for the fix than than your complaint.

IhasAshuvel
12-08-2009, 13:19
A fleeting broodlord means a first turn charge in 90% of games - not much can take a normal charge from the broodlord and his crew, let alone a charge that cannot be prevented.

IMO a large majority of the suggestions presented ar basically "my army is weak now, remove all of the downsides while buffing stuff plz".

Giganthrax
12-08-2009, 13:44
TBH, I think the main problem of nids in 5h edition is the lack of mobility and anti-vehicle stuff. They're just too slow and too weak against close-topped vehicles, and there are tons of mech armies in 5th.

This is what I would do;

- improve hormagaunts to make them into a sort of an ork-boy equivalent in price and efficiency, only without any shooting

- keep genestealers same price and stats as they are now, only make them run 2d6" rather then just the regular d6", but also disallow first turn charges. I think the biggest problem with stealers is that they cost a lot and yet end up shredded by the time they reach the enemy lines + they can't do a thing to most vehicles nowadays.

- give tyranids myceptic spores, similar to drop pods (no deep strike mishaps), but that can't arrive on turn 1, - say, a myceptic spore could carry one MC, or a bunch of smaller creatures, and they can't charge on the turn they arrive, would be a great way for the nids to get "in yo face" on turn 2, without being too overpowered

- make zoanthrope units 1-3, so they gotha move together but all count as one unit and hence one KP

That's what comes to mind at the moment. Nids defo need an update, though.

Souleater
12-08-2009, 14:00
Please explain why 5th Edition rules out Fleet on Broodlords (bearing in mind that in a new dex they may not get to Outflank) :confused:

While I agree that the Lictor in the example performed well the fact is that the 'feared stalker of the Tyranid Vanguard' is often clubbed to death by the small infantry units it is sent to kill.

I find myself thinking back to the days of 2nd edition when Nids were THE CC army and wondering if they are ever going to be given back that role. As we continue with 5th edition I find myself playing my Mixed Swarm with more and more reliance on shooting...the current rules neutered tarpit units to the extent that such units actively harm the 'hammer' unit that comes in to kill the enemy.

It is all very well asking for quantity but I'm not sure that the 5th Ed rules actually make it viable, particularly in assault.

Look at gaunts, for example. They are often compared to Ork boys, which is understandable since both are the PBI of their respective races.

Yet look at the differences - a gaunt squad in this 'Troop orientated edition' has to be sheparded around the board just to move anywhere or claim an objective. It doesn't hit with anything like the power and lacks the ability to take a PK Nob. Orks get quantity by the bucket load but the quality of their basic troops is undeniable.

People counter claim that gaunts are really only for 'mobile cover' or to occupy enemy fire...as somebody who has to buy, paint and game with that many gaunts for that many points that really doesn't sit well with me.

Making Nids even cheaper sells more models and forces Nid players to bring even more models to the table (making for longer games with more time for the opponent watching me move eighty squillion models.)

If my hormagaunt unit gets shred up on the way into the fight, should it not be equally as dangerous when it arrives in assault? Obviously Hormies are pretty fast so they would not need to be too deadly.

I don't know what to do about NR! and Fearless. Currently losing an assault results in gaunts taking almost double the amount of wounds they already did and then causing the same number of wounds on any friendly brood in the same assault.

The interaction seems entirely designed to let SM bust their way out of tarpitting. I'm fine if Hormies go back to being killy units rather than simply tarpits. It is what I'd prefer.

I don't want to see Synapse providing any benefit other than the intended purpose of simply ignoring morale tests. It doesn't need to provide FNP, Immunity to Force Weapons or Juggling Weasels.

My wishlisting would probably be something along the lines of:


T5 for the Midsizes.
Option for decent INV saves for MCs.
Removal of ID immunity.
Stealers to get power weapons instead of Rending if they stay at their current cost.
An Extra base attack on the profile of most Nids - they have a lot of arms.
A reduction in the effectiveness or availability of some of our shooting. Or an increase in the points.
The removal of Nidzilla - 5 MCs is enough IMHO to represent Nidzilla at the level of most games.


Instinctive behavour to become simply 'the Tyranid unit must attempt to move towards and assault the nearest enemy unit'.

Synapse creatures, rather than Troops being used to capture objectives. Given the current situation Tyranids need two units to hold a home objective. Why not just cut to the Synapse unit holding ground as the 'focus' of the Hivemind's attention?

Lastly - and this is a rough idea - Nids ignore KPs in KP missions. Instead Nids would get WoN on several units and the enemy would simply have to try and survive until the end of the game with a certain percentage of units.

Vepr
12-08-2009, 14:59
Fexs need a bit of bump in CC and a bit of a nerf in shooting. Maybe give CC only fexs fleet? Maybe only allow one ranged weapon for shooting fexes but up the anti armor ability just a touch.

The smaller bugs need to be cheaper but I also don't want to be required to field 100 of them before taking a Hive Tyrant etc.

catbarf
12-08-2009, 17:35
I don't think restrictions need to be placed on the weapons a Fex can take. It's fluffy to allow some to be snipers and others melee monsters. It'd be better to recost the weapons. Make the fex a little more expensive but with twin scything talons free, then have cheaper crushing claws and more expensive Devourers and you're set.

Zoanthropes not needing to roll to hit would be a good change. Many pieces of wargear and units are capable of denying psychic tests, so forcing a Ld test AND a 4+ to hit is too much.

PhalanxLord
12-08-2009, 17:37
I'd have to disagree with this idea. First it make it all too easy for any Tyranid player to park a Zoanthrope in cover in his deployment zone and have a back-up in case his opponent managed to wipe out the Synapse creature that are actually assaulting his lines and eating his face. While an extended range for Synapse might be better, keeping just one creature alive kinda negates the point of it being one of the major lynchpins of the list, and makes it actually a good idea to take Synapse creatures to back up your troops(which you should do anyway).


I'm not sure there'd be a point in upgrading the BS of the Tyrant on base, since most Nid lists I see tend to pick either a ranged Tyrant or melee Tyrant and often don't try to mix the two. I think the enhanced senses upgrade works, primarily your not paying for it unless you need it, unlike a base upgrade which would add points to the base cost. I agree on the base weapons. I agree with these.


Kinda iffy on this, since outflank can cut out most of the distance he would to cross. But I agree to an extant.


I think its fine. Shrike has fleet and infiltrate and can do it with TH/SS termies. A broodlord with stealers isn't really more dangerous than that.



I'd see maybe twenty five-thirty points(possibly more) with that base line and weapons, since they get a good deal better at killing infantry.

Thats roughly what that set up costs now. I thought we wanted cheaper, viable warriors, not the same overcosted stuff we currently have.



I'd like to keep the feeder tendrils since a re-roll , especially in a decent melee unit, should cost something. I'd keep the single set of rending claws honestly, since again re-rolling wounds is another valuable thing that jacks up points. I'm not sure you need genestealers in Elite slots, since that be a possible nine units, all of which can outflank and includes two Broodlords. Make Stealer shoch assault lists more powerful.

I like feeder tendrils. Honestly, stealers were pointed fine in 4th. In fifth with FT they're mathematically roughly the same as in 4th (like less than 10% worse than 4th ed stealers). Going off of that, base stealers are overcosted right now.



Synapse essentially gives Gaunts fearless normally, so I'm not sure giving them auto fearless would make that much sense. I agree that Termagaunts and Spinegaunts should be a few points cheaper, but on the flipside, should lose Without Number since it be easier to take more and larger broods in troop slots. I'd say furious charge on Hormagaunts would be pointless since they're already Initiative 4.

D00d, there's plenty of advantages with having I5 on assault along with +1S. Ask anyone with a furious charge unit. Its a nice rule to have.



Don't they already have Marbo's deployment in a sense, since they can deploy in any terrain piece of their owner's choosing? And I'm sure they can assault the turn they appear too. Again I'd say no stacking rending claws since again, feeder tendrils already provide one re-roll. Hit and run makes sense.

Not quite. Marbo is just placed anywhere with no scatter and he can shoot as normal. Lictors DS into area terrain but can assault. What that person wants is the ability to place Lictors where ever they want and then assault, so pretty much a free, unpreventable assault on anything in the game. If lictors weren't so crappy it'd be broken.



No. Just no. An auto-hitting las cannon would be silly, and not even a psychic est makes that even slightly balanced.

I agree with that. But having them hitting with BS3 is just crap. Maybe have it as S10 AP2 but with zoans at BS4. That would make it useful.


Agreed with wholeheartedly.


Same here.



I'd say increase armor, decrease armor, and let them assault on the turn they deep strike. I'd be against giving them Toughness 5.
Keep Spore mines, just don't make them count as a KP, and the utility comes back a little bit.

I disagree with you on the Ravs. At T5 they don't have to worry about being instant deathed (which is a big reason why they aren't used along with having the hitting power of a wet towel) and they don't have to fear enemy firepower as much. Charging out of DS seems interesting. They still would need a points break though.



I kinda prefer the idea of making Carnifexes slot choice based on points. I think keeping the point cost for most of the upgrades would be a good idea.

Personally I don't play nidzilla so I don't care too much about elite fexes. I don't usually use them.



Waffeling on this one. Venom cannons are the Nid's main ranged heavy weapon, so I'd would say yes on that, even if I'd like a point increse on it then.

The VC is already an extremely expensive gun on a BS3 model. I don't think it really would need a points increase.


Just going to respond to a few points here:

Tyranids are about quantity not quality. you don't rely on a 6+ save, you rely on sending 3 models to do the job.

Good luck finding someone who'll let you take 3 tyrants.



So outflanking him with a load of genestealers isn't enough? The fleet arguement would have held water in 4th edition, but not now.


I'd say it holds even more water now that there is a character who gives his unit infiltrate and fleet. Shrike. So are you telling me that Shrike and some terminators are swifter than a BL and stealers? Besides, I don't really see the problem with outflanking with a fleeting BL because his lesser brethren can. Thats more of a reason why he should be able to.



Disagree with you here. CC carnifexes got better with run. Ranged attacks from carnifexes simply don't 'crush tanks like a soda can'. They usually stun or remove weapons. CC carnifexes can squash landraiders with average rolls. I agree that getting them there is the problem, but again we now have run. As for power weapons, the carnifex can be made T7. Powerfists? Carnifexes can be made Int 2. Large units with hidden powerfists? send in the tarpit units and use the carnifex on better targets. Bad WS? WS4 and toxic miasma sorts that out.

Sure CCfexes got better with run, but they still aren't that great. I've tried them before. They get shot to pieces before they hit enemy lines and even if they do then they don't hit hard enough. Also they're expensive points-wise. A CCfex with BE, +WS, +I, and TM? Thats already 133 and you still haven't touched many of the important CC upgrades. And it still won't stop that tank from nuking your lines until turn 3 or 4 and that tank can still just choose to run away and lead you around. Sure that means that that tank is out of the way, but the enemy can still shoot at your fex and they could take it out before it stops your tank from shooting for more than a turn or two if they haven't done so by the time it reaches their lines. As for power weapons, T7 is no different to S4 than T6 is so its only good against PFs, and I2 is only useful against PFs if the enemy unit has lost enough d00ds that you can actually kill it before it attacks which tends to be unlikely.



So your 80pt lictor bumped off a 250pt landraider and you're moaning because your opponent had the cheek to shoot at it? I agree that lictors are somewhat overpriced, but I think you will have to come up with a better reason for the fix than than your complaint.

Considering that 80pt lictor has to hit, roll a 6 to rend and then roll a 5+ to pen and then another 5+ to wreck it then the odds are very much so against the lictor. Even auto-hitting the odds are only 7.2%. Considering often the LR will have moved the odds are more like 3.65%. Of course they're better against other tanks, but even still Lictors are massively overcosted.


A fleeting broodlord means a first turn charge in 90% of games - not much can take a normal charge from the broodlord and his crew, let alone a charge that cannot be prevented.

Shrike does that with TH/SS terminators. I'd say his assault is just as brutal if not more so.



IMO a large majority of the suggestions presented ar basically "my army is weak now, remove all of the downsides while buffing stuff plz".

Nids aren't exactly weak, but what people want is the ability to have a tourney viable non-zilla list. Asking for units that no one uses to become viable isn't asking for the removal of all downsides but asking for more useful units. I'd like a choice between a unit of warriors, a lictor, or an elite fex to be one that isn't a nobrainer. People should have to think before choosing between Rippers, Horms, Gaunts, and Stealers.


Fexs need a bit of bump in CC and a bit of a nerf in shooting. Maybe give CC only fexs fleet? Maybe only allow one ranged weapon for shooting fexes but up the anti armor ability just a touch.

The smaller bugs need to be cheaper but I also don't want to be required to field 100 of them before taking a Hive Tyrant etc.

I don't think fexes need a shooting nerf. They're decent at shooting, but not that amazing from my experience. I don't care if dakkafexes are nerfed, but the other fexes are either balanced or a bit underpowered for their costs.

IhasAshuvel
12-08-2009, 17:48
Option for decent INV saves for MCs.


I disagree with these - tyranids aren't an invulnerable save army really, FnP could be a sensible option mostly because it will stop krak missiles. Obviously to reflect the fact that a lot of weapons you'd shoot at MC's are AP2 FnP would be cheap.



Synapse creatures, rather than Troops being used to capture objectives. Given the current situation Tyranids need two units to hold a home objective. Why not just cut to the Synapse unit holding ground as the 'focus' of the Hivemind's attention?

I do like the idea but feel that it could potentially be flawed given it could almost eliminate the use of CC synapse creatures.


Lastly - and this is a rough idea - Nids ignore KPs in KP missions. Instead Nids would get WoN on several units and the enemy would simply have to try and survive until the end of the game with a certain percentage of units.

This however sounds terrible - you can do better by changing the little things rather than the one ones (i.e make lictors 1 per FoC but buff them suitably).

It would be nice if spore mines are worth no KP though.



I think its fine. Shrike has fleet and infiltrate and can do it with TH/SS termies. A broodlord with stealers isn't really more dangerous than that.

*head asplodes*

Bolter Bait
12-08-2009, 18:32
A problem I see is that people are forced into the role of taking numerous MCs and Genestealers because we do not have a viable alternative.

Playing a swarm list with lots of Gaunts is not possible because of the nature of the Gaunt. They're a weenie little unit that has no hitting power, even if taken in quantity. They lose combats, or at best, tie them. Within Synapse, they're subject to No Retreat! often and lose 5/6th of the extra wounds they're subjected to. Outside of Synapse, they're Ld 5, and with their proclivity towards losing a combat, they're going to run away. Even working in concert with other Tyranid units, just by virtue of being in that combat, Gaunts usually tip the balance in favour of the opponent.

So why should a Tyranid player take hordes of Gaunts when all they are is a liability? Genestealers are so much more versatile an option. They can win combats on their own, they perform well supporting other units, they do not require a Synaptic babysitter and they're Ld 10 on their own. Same goes for TMCs. Fearless, high toughness with a good save and they have killing power on their own or combined with others. MCs are a good investment to protect your KPs, something a swarm army cannot say by taking lots of fragile units that cannot perform.

Honestly, I think the Instinctive Behaviour system needs a reworking, so that it's both a penalty and an indirect benefit. Think Phase Out! for Necrons. It's a massive penalty that they have for their massive (3rd edition) overpowered benefits. We have IB, which can be crippling if we play dumb, but we can ignore it by taking no units that follow IB. Necrons cannot escape Phase Out.

So, rework the IB system. Tyranids would be Mindless, Instinctive or, Independant. Fearless/Synaptic can modify the behaviour of broods.
Mindless: Not Scoring unless within Synapse range. Never worth Kill Points. In addition moves randomly (i.e. current spore mines). Note, these units would not get +1 attack for randomly moving into enemy models.

Instinctive: Not Scoring unless within Synapse range, though only Troops can ever count as scoring units. Never worth KPs unless the model has more than one wound. In addition, must test at start of Movement Phase to move. Passed test, unit is subject to "Rage;" on a failed test, the unit Goes to Ground immediately (which ends normally at the end of the current turn).

Independent: Normal unit. Moves and acts normally.

Fearless: Fearless as per USR. Fearless broods automatically pass their Instinctive test at the start of the Movement phase, so they're always subjected to a "Rage" reaction as described under Instinctive.

Synaptic: Synaptic creatures are always Fearless and Independant. In addition, all broods with at least one model within 12" of a Synaptic creature gain the Fearless USR and move as Independent broods instead of following their specific movement restrictions.

What this does is take away the largest problem with Gaunts and Rippers (easy KPs) but makes it so they cannot be a scoring unit without a Synaptic creature directing them. This permits us to field a swarm army without fear of conceding the game automatically from KPs granted by pathetic units. It doesn't fix Gaunts, but doesn't make them as unattractive as a they currently are. Likewise, as very few units would be naturally Independant (Lictors, Genestealers, Biovores), which creates a situation were we'd need Synaptic creatures to keep the rest from running across the board or just cowering in place, which then emphasizes how Tyranids should be a layered force.

Granted, people will still take Genestealers instead of Gaunts. However I feel that if we're going to be in line with other codexes, in that they take Special Characters to alter the FoC or gain special rules, that Genestealers should be an Elite slot choice that become Troops choices if a Broodlord is fielded. Granted, are Genestealers, right now, worth being in an Elite Slot? Some might say that with the ability to Outflank and take Feeders, yes, while others think that the Rending Nerf makes them barely worth the points as it is for Troops choices, much less a valuable Elite slot.

==========

On a different note, I also feel that Synapse should be a psychic conduit for Hive Mind powers. For example, take The Horror. It's a power that's always on the creature that takes it. But what if on a successful test, the power is extended to all broods with a model within that creature's Synapse range? Suddenly, those Gaunts holding that objective might last a little longer if an enemy has to test to assault them.

What I'm leaning towards is that Hive Mind Powers have a range of Personal Synapse and Field Synapse. Personal Synapse powers affect all units within that specific creatures Synapse range. Field Synapse would be single target effects, but rather than having a range drawn from the creature tht has that power, the range is drawn from ANY Synaptic creature on the table, using that creature's BS if the power requires a roll to hit. This does assume that a Broodlord's BS drops to 0 to prevent us from having an Outflanking Warp Blast.

Some powers would suffer from this change (Scream) while others would improve (Horror, Catalyst) and won't work this way (Shadow and Field), but it would make an interesting change to Tyranid Hive Mind mechanics.

Ulrig
12-08-2009, 19:38
Just going to respond to a few points here:

Tyranids are about quantity not quality. you don't rely on a 6+ save, you rely on sending 3 models to do the job.

3 models....what?!?!



So outflanking him with a load of genestealers isn't enough? The fleet arguement would have held water in 4th edition, but not now.

Again...the broodlord is a upgrade for a genestealer unit....but he cannot move like the rest of his unit.....yeah that makes sense. God forbid he actually might be worth his points some day.

Are you honestly going to tell me that giving him fleet THAT THE REST OF HIS UNIT HAS is too much?



Disagree with you here. CC carnifexes got better with run. Ranged attacks from carnifexes simply don't 'crush tanks like a soda can'. They usually stun or remove weapons. CC carnifexes can squash landraiders with average rolls. I agree that getting them there is the problem, but again we now have run. As for power weapons, the carnifex can be made T7. Powerfists? Carnifexes can be made Int 2. Large units with hidden powerfists? send in the tarpit units and use the carnifex on better targets. Bad WS? WS4 and toxic miasma sorts that out.

Im not saying you will destroy a tank with the ranged shooty from a nex...but at least you can harm it before turn 4. Again....a shooty nex and a CC nex....when it comes to charging a tank there is no difference.




So your 80pt lictor bumped off a 250pt landraider and you're moaning because your opponent had the cheek to shoot at it? I agree that lictors are somewhat overpriced, but I think you will have to come up with a better reason for the fix than than your complaint.

I Lucked out with my lictor....made all the rolls i needed to....i doubt it happens again. My point is after the initial charge he just stands there like a dumb@$$ because he is not locked in combat with anything....cannot utilize hit and run....even if the vehicle survives. But if he charges a avg squad of blah troops and he actually survives them attacking back...he can utilize hit and run.

Souleater
12-08-2009, 20:09
I disagree with these - tyranids aren't an invulnerable save army really...

They used to be. They used to have a boat load of potential 'hard' saving throws but lost them in the transition to 3rd.

Other races kept theirs and in some cases effectively regained the ability to take two attempts at a save.

As to the poster who says BLs shouldn't have fleet...in a world where Daemons have the Fleeting Defiler.... I hardly think a Broodlord is OTT.

IhasAshuvel
12-08-2009, 20:19
They used to be. They used to have a boat load of potential 'hard' saving throws but lost them in the transition to 3rd.

Just start piling on the wounds if you want the models to be super tough.




As to the poster who says BLs shouldn't have fleet...in a world where Daemons have the Fleeting Defiler.... I hardly think a Broodlord is OTT.

When was the last time the defiler started 12 or 18" away from your frontline?

First turn charges are balanced - just remember in the infiltrating speed lord of old.

Souleater
12-08-2009, 20:38
Number of wounds doesn't help against Force Weapons, being Spawned, Rending makes a mockery of it.

Soul Grinders can DS and have fleet. They can deep strike.

As to first turn charges....those aren't hard to pull off with Raider mounted Wyches...a little trickier with Incubi.

IhasAshuvel
12-08-2009, 20:47
Number of wounds doesn't help against Force Weapons, being Spawned, Rending makes a mockery of it.

Force weapons and being spawned both are meant to be "I hit you you die" and rending still has to kill the model the old fashioned way - it just makes it slightly easier to do it.


Soul Grinders can DS and have fleet. They can deep strike.

last time I checked broodlords (assuming they have fleet) weren't at the mercy of the scatter die nor were they forced to endure at least 1 round of shooting.


As to first turn charges....those aren't hard to pull off with Raider mounted Wyches...a little trickier with Incubi.

The difference being both of those rely on aggressive deployment, hoping their raider doesn't get shot down and ultimately DE being the fastest race in the game

None of these first turn charges are reliable as infiltrating and fleeting broodlord. If it was one or the other then you're set (scouts and fleet is a nice combo) - but fleet combined with infiltrate doesn't exist for a reason.

If anyone mentions shrike I would like to tell you that the rules forum is in that direction -->

Souleater
12-08-2009, 21:07
1. But other heroes get INV saves to avoid the effect, do they not?

2. Outflanking is at the mercy of the Reserve roll, is it not? The unit may also come in on the wrong edge. A broodlord with fleet would not be a guaranteed first turn charge unless it starts on the table (in which case I refer you to your comments about Dark Eldar first turn charges).

A Broodlord with Fleet should certainly have a 'must deploy outside of charge range' rule.

Brendi
12-08-2009, 21:33
Not that much a fan of first turn charges myself, but I think the broodlord should have fleet.
Itīs a simple fix really, give the broodlord scout+fleet and remove infiltrate.

Itīs not like you see tons of broodlord lists cheezing it through tourneys.


As a decent Tyranid general myself there are things I would like to see done.
Iīm not that big a fan of Nidzilla, but I play vs some good players and we like to make it tough on each other. That means that any other list is a handicap.

I would like to see the typical Tyranid swarm with a mix of all sizes viable.

T5, 4+ save "warrior" type bugs seems to me like a nice fix, along with some cost reductions.

Raveners arenīt all that deadly compared to other nids.
What I mean by that is that they are about the same level as a lot of other units like CC warriors, genestealers and even hormagaunts.

Tyrants are great, but I would like to see a 5++ save available.

And many more....

In the end itīs up to GW, I just hope that they keep their head cool and do their job properly.

IhasAshuvel
12-08-2009, 21:35
1. But other heroes get INV saves to avoid the effect, do they not?

However most heroes aren't T5-6 with 4 wounds.


2. Outflanking is at the mercy of the Reserve roll, is it not? The unit may also come in on the wrong edge. A broodlord with fleet would not be a guaranteed first turn charge unless it starts on the table (in which case I refer you to your comments about Dark Eldar first turn charges).

Outflanking isn't the issue, it is the fact that none of the standard missions will stop him deploying via infiltrate and subsequently fleeting into charge range.

From a pure mathematical point of view a DE first turn charge is solely reliant on luck (namely the fleet roll) unless your opponent is foolish enough to move (and probably run) into charge ranges. getting a turn 2 charge isn't a problem at all, but first turn charges are a tad unfair as nearly all units that have historically been capable of it are really nasty in CC.


A Broodlord with Fleet should certainly have a 'must deploy outside of charge range' rule.

That would balance the combo yes, but it could easily seem like a cop-out to a problem rather than using a better designed approach.

Brendi
12-08-2009, 21:49
However most heroes aren't T5-6 with 4 wounds.


Then again most other heroes canīt be continually singled out and be shot at by heavy weapons. :)

Also, the fact that tyrants have more wounds shouldnīt make them easier to oneshot.
Granted the increased toughness is good protection vs force weapons and the like, I still feel that a 6++ save isnīt really a save.
Ok, so all saves are random, but with a 6+ save youīre dead before you averagely save anything.

Would you be more agreeable to Tyrants getting a 4-5++ save if they couldnīt get a 2+ save?

Just my 2cents.

IhasAshuvel
12-08-2009, 23:06
Then again most other heroes canīt be continually singled out and be shot at by heavy weapons. :)

However tyrant guard are one of the best retinues in the game - how many HQ's can have 10 T5-6 wounds with a 3+/2+ armour save in one slot?


Also, the fact that tyrants have more wounds shouldnīt make them easier to oneshot.
Granted the increased toughness is good protection vs force weapons and the like, I still feel that a 6++ save isnīt really a save.
Ok, so all saves are random, but with a 6+ save youīre dead before you averagely save anything.

I think you are looking at the sympton and not the cause.

How many force weapons are there in the game?
How many of those are on models that can consistently wound a tyrant?


Unless i'm missing some, outside of a GKGM and Typhus none of the current force weapons wielding guys can take a tyrant.

Plus I would advocate a tyrant being immune to instant death (but only the tyrant) given how crucial they to the tyranid army.


Would you be more agreeable to Tyrants getting a 4-5++ save if they couldnīt get a 2+ save?


It wouldn't change much from now if they had a 5+ and a 4+ on such a model could easily be a bit extreme.

Firaxin
12-08-2009, 23:38
I made my own 'nid fandex when 5th came out; it might still be in the Rules and Development backlogs somewhere.

Basically, a few key things:

Nidzilla isn't taken because it's overpowered, it's taken because everything else is underpowered. Thus, boost horde and mid-size units. I boosted midsize units by giving them T5/Sv4+ and making them cheaper in some places. This also removes the need for Synapse's Immune to ID rule.

Making gaunts cheaper is not the way to go about fixing horde armies. 3-4pt gaunts would be retarded.

The conundrum is to construct a good CC horde army without making them chitin-colored orks. What I did: gaunts, hormagaunts, gargoyles, and rippers have Without Number and worth 0 KP, but gaunts are a few points extra (and hormas/gargs were slightly overcosted anyways). This means that an initial wave might be outnumbered by guard or orks, but there are always more waves on the way to swing the balance. To balance the 0 KP rule and to emphasize their role as the army's linchpin, Synapse creatures are worth 2x KP. This makes them a very distinct and viable army.

Juggling with the idea of having WoN broods not be able to score but make all synapse units scoring.

To fix No Retreat wounds: Synapse has the same effect as the old Inquisitor's Iron Will rule (which God of War is based on)--any 'nid within range may choose to pass or fail any morale or leadership test they're required to take.

On Shootyness vs CC: Tyranids ARE NOT a CC army. They are a hyper-evolved, naturally selected, super predator. If their foe calls for shooting, they will optimize the hive fleet for shooting. If their foe calls for close combat, they will optimize the fleet for CC. Thus I didn't do much to nerf shooting except to limit Heavy Fexes to 1 shooty weapon mounted on their thorax.

Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons switched: BS can only glance but auto-shakes in addition to whatever else; VC could penetrate, but I really like the suggestion of VC making enemy vehicles count as obscured.

Oh, and Plastic Gargoyles are a must.

Those were the main things, IIRC. Anyone want all the details, send me a PM.

PhalanxLord
13-08-2009, 00:28
However most heroes aren't T5-6 with 4 wounds.


*coughDaemonswith4++or5++savesand4woundscough*



Outflanking isn't the issue, it is the fact that none of the standard missions will stop him deploying via infiltrate and subsequently fleeting into charge range.

From a pure mathematical point of view a DE first turn charge is solely reliant on luck (namely the fleet roll) unless your opponent is foolish enough to move (and probably run) into charge ranges. getting a turn 2 charge isn't a problem at all, but first turn charges are a tad unfair as nearly all units that have historically been capable of it are really nasty in CC.


Seeing as its not that easy to hide a BL and a nice large unit of stealers from LOS of the enemy's entire army right now, they'll generally be setting up 18" away, amirite? So then the BL first turn charge would also be statistically rare due to needing a good fleet move. You can also do the same thing with hormagaunts and fleeting assault marines (Sure it says >24", but 24.1" is >24" but still close enough to it that most people will move their models that much more distance by accident-> its within the accidental error range) by moving X, fleeting 6", and charging.

Overall though I think it would be better to just give the BL scout instead of infiltrate. These days we always outflank with him anyways. Maybe add a rule that makes it so he can always choose the side he wants or something to represent that he was already in a good forward position. Who knows.

catbarf
13-08-2009, 01:28
Granted, people will still take Genestealers instead of Gaunts. However I feel that if we're going to be in line with other codexes, in that they take Special Characters to alter the FoC or gain special rules, that Genestealers should be an Elite slot choice that become Troops choices if a Broodlord is fielded. Granted, are Genestealers, right now, worth being in an Elite Slot? Some might say that with the ability to Outflank and take Feeders, yes, while others think that the Rending Nerf makes them barely worth the points as it is for Troops choices, much less a valuable Elite slot.

First off, BB, an excellent post, and I'm not at all surprised to see that you're a Warpshadow-er. What I've quoted, however, is what I disagree with. See, I don't think that it's a question of being worth the points, but rather the slot. When it comes down to it, Elites are where you take Warriors. They're the cheapest Synapse creatures and possibly the most important (especially with the changes you listed). Since running large units of them is unwise, Elites slots are usually filled with small broods of 3-5 Warriors each. Having 'Stealers be Elites choices would force them to compete. We'd then have Lictors, elite Fexes, Genestealers, and Warriors all vying for just three FOC slots. I say let the Genestealers stay as troops. They're specialized enough that they aren't likely to be used in massive waves outside of themed armies.

Jackmojo
13-08-2009, 03:48
I like most of the suggestions folks are tossing out here (especially regarding kicking up the mid sized critters).

I'd also like to see some more synapse effects, either psyker powers as mentioned elsewhere or perhaps purchasable unit upgrades that only work in synapse range. For example to help protect gaunts from the effects of no retreat synapse could grant them feel no pain at a cost.

As for 'nid shooting, there's two things I'd like: Change to always glancing VC to just a flat -1 on the damage roll (so it nets the same 1/6 chance to kill a vehicle on a penetrating hit it used to get in 4th), and Deathspitters (on warriors) as assault 2 str8 ap4 pseudo krak missiles. This gives them some enough shooting to negate transports, but still leaves heavy tank busting to Melee.

Jack

Egaeus
13-08-2009, 05:25
Someone posted a comment about being able to take Warrriors and Gaunts like IG Platoons...I tried to find it with a quick scan but didn't see it...

I like that idea and have considered some similar things before. Realize this does a couple of things...first, 'Stealers could then become Elites without competing with Slots for Warriors (although you could leave Warriors as an HQ/Elite option depending on how you design the "Swarms"), and now the Broodlord's ability could be taking him allows 'Stealers to be troops (this just keeps things in line with the current design paradigm). Warriors as Troops gives you some potential scoring Synapse as well...some potentially hard(er) units to hold objectives. Again, the important thing would be balancing how this type of multi-squad unit was construted. Off the top of my head the idea would be 0-1 Warrior Squad per 1 or 2 Gaunt squads (got to be careful that you can't overload on Warriors by taking minimum Gaunt squads) as a single Troops option. Another potential with this sort of organization is that it potentially lets 'Nids be a master Horde army again...something that seems definitely lacking even if you do load up on Gaunts (as comparative to Orks and Guard). The points costs of individual units would be what ensures this doesn't get out of hand (again I point to Guard organizaton and the numbers they can muster in a single Troop slot).

I toyed with the idea of having Warriors work as either squads or mixed in with Gaunt units (although the would need fleet then, but I have always liked the idea of the entire army having fleet...yes, even the MCs) like Sergeants. Along this path I considered some kind of Swarm rule that let you join 'Nid units together as you wished...not sure how well this would balance but I always thought it would be fluffy.

Just some thoughts.

big squig
13-08-2009, 05:28
Bugs just need a gigantic decreasing in points across the board.

BrotherMoses
13-08-2009, 05:34
... shouldn't nids be about lots and lots of inexpensive bugs that die easily but massed will kill you? In cc ofcourse. Then the optional list of nidzilla big expensive bugs that whomp on things should also be in there. But then, my experience with nids is limited to learning their codex at the table. "What do you mean the little bugs take the wounds for the big bug?" "huh, they're immune to instant death? WHY!!!"...

big squig
13-08-2009, 06:16
Also, is there any reason carnifexs are fearless? They're bugs just like all the rest. Why does their size make them fearless? Outside synapse, they're just as wild and dumb as any other nid.

I'd like to see a greater return to the need for synapse. Other than synapse, broodlords, stealers, and lictors everything should be LD5. Nids are not an intelligent civilized race. Their wildlife. It's like fighting a pack of roaming deer...that just happen to be under the control of a hive mind that can control even their motor skills and remove their sense of pain. Kill that synapse link and the pack should disperse.

Then, to balance things out, increase the range for synapse. When I started playing bugs, synapse was 18".

Instinctive behavior has got to go to. Either make all nids outside synapse have Rage, or just drop the rule entirely.

genestealer_baldric
13-08-2009, 08:40
carnifexs are fearless because they are dumber than a plank of wood and so are not scared of guardsman, leman russ, titans.

but you are VERY wrong about not being a inteligent race, just becuase they dont follow human logic dosnt mean they are dumb. Predators are very very inteligent in there feild of expertise, but ask one to do algebra and it will probally try to eat the maths teacher, but flip the coin and put a maths teacher with no equipment in the wild and tell him to hunt deer etc he will struggle.

Also they are not natural creatures they were designed and spawn will the sole reason to kill not with self presevation what i think should happen is when they are under synaspe control they are focused killers, but without it they become frothing wild creqatures who just want to kill the closest thing with no regard for personal saftey or objectives.

yeah people hate gaunts getting 2+ coversaves when out of synaspe :)

Brendi
13-08-2009, 10:11
Also, is there any reason carnifexs are fearless? They're bugs just like all the rest. Why does their size make them fearless? Outside synapse, they're just as wild and dumb as any other nid.

I'd like to see a greater return to the need for synapse. Other than synapse, broodlords, stealers, and lictors everything should be LD5. Nids are not an intelligent civilized race. Their wildlife. It's like fighting a pack of roaming deer...that just happen to be under the control of a hive mind that can control even their motor skills and remove their sense of pain. Kill that synapse link and the pack should disperse.

Then, to balance things out, increase the range for synapse. When I started playing bugs, synapse was 18".

Instinctive behavior has got to go to. Either make all nids outside synapse have Rage, or just drop the rule entirely.


I agree with this.
As it is now Synapse does not really affect the game that much.
Sure, thereīs the WoN gaunt units, but what else, really?
Thereīs the immunity to instant death, but Iīm not a fan of it.
That rule was introduced because of Raveners, Lictors and so on. The T4 W2 beasties.


Synapse being able to affect enemy psykers would be cool and fluffy at that.
In general, I would like to see more psychic powers from Nids, but itīs up to GW which path they want to go down.

gorgon
13-08-2009, 15:03
... shouldn't nids be about lots and lots of inexpensive bugs that die easily but massed will kill you?


... shouldn't nids be about lots and lots of inexpensive bugs that die easily but massed will kill you?

That's one take on them, but not everyone's.

What I think non-Tyranid players miss with your above statement is that cheaper Gaunts still won't make them operate like you describe. The issue is that they have pitiful offensive output and cause very few casualties. Meanwhile, their fragility means they take a ton of casualties in return...which means they lose combats handily. And because of the No Retreat rule, that means they get hit with *another* round of wounds in combat resolution (which hits hard because their saves are so poor).

So essentially you have offensive, defensive and morale issues. Which is kind of a lot. :D And a few more Gaunts per brood really aren't going to solve that. I'm not sure you need to address all three...properly addressing two of three might solve the problem.

As I've said elsewhere, I'd be inclined to move Gaunts to WS4, have spinefists count as two CCWs, and change synapse to be a Marneus Calgar-style "may choose to autopass or autofail any Morale checks" thing. The result is that they'd still be fragile, but they'd have the option for more attacks (which should help their casualty totals), they'd hit more vs. WS3 and *get* hit less vs. WS4, and wouldn't have to worry about No Retreat casualties anymore. And voila...Gaunts might be an effective tarpit unit again.

Angelwing
13-08-2009, 15:36
Good luck finding someone who'll let you take 3 tyrants.


3 models....what?!?!

Apologies. I didn't make myself clear on this point. :oI didn't mean 3 tyrants exclusively, I meant rather than send 1 tyrant to kill something, send 1 and his 3 guard retinue, or rather than 1 carnifex, send 2, or rather than 1 brood of gaunts send 3 etc Quantity rather than quality. Tyranids have always been an attritional army (with the possible exception of the nidzilla list)




Again...the broodlord is a upgrade for a genestealer unit....but he cannot move like the rest of his unit.....yeah that makes sense. God forbid he actually might be worth his points some day.

Are you honestly going to tell me that giving him fleet THAT THE REST OF HIS UNIT HAS is too much?
He is worth his points now he and a brood of genestealer can now outflank (avoiding lots of enemy fire). It was a bit odd in 4th ed until you noticed that with fleet he (and his retinue) would have been able to infiltrate and assault on turn one, which would have been very powerful. Right now with outflank (for free....) yes, I can honestly tell you that giving him fleet as well would be too much.




Im not saying you will destroy a tank with the ranged shooty from a nex...but at least you can harm it before turn 4. Again....a shooty nex and a CC nex....when it comes to charging a tank there is no difference.

Ah, so you meant that a cc fex and a shooty fex are the same for close combatting a tank, but a shooty fex has a few additional chances to damage it with shooting? Your first post read to me ' shooting carnifexes can crush tanks by shooting' Crossed swords and confusion there.




I Lucked out with my lictor....made all the rolls i needed to....i doubt it happens again. My point is after the initial charge he just stands there like a dumb@$$ because he is not locked in combat with anything....cannot utilize hit and run....even if the vehicle survives. But if he charges a avg squad of blah troops and he actually survives them attacking back...he can utilize hit and run.
Which is fine, but how would you feel if a unit popped out, wasted your best tank and vanished without any chance of reprisal? There has to be balance.
I think you used a bad example. I would be grinning like an idiot and biting your hand off to exchange a lictor for a landraider.

Bolter Bait
13-08-2009, 16:13
... shouldn't nids be about lots and lots of inexpensive bugs that die easily but massed will kill you? In cc ofcourse.There was an idea floating around in one of the numerous fandexes regarding Tyranid CC weapons. To summarize, rather than increasing defensive capabilities like Toughness or Sv, most Nids had Flesh Hooks standard and all close-combat biomorphs counted as an additional set of CC weapons. Yes, this means that a Carnifex with Crushing Claws would have D6+1 attacks from a single cc biomorph.

Units like Hormagaunts got buffed with free frag equivalents and Genestealers had +1 attack from their Rending Claws, before upgrading with a set of Scything Talons. So the idea was to basically let Nids remain fragile, but the models that did survive to make it to CC were much more deadly.

gorgon
13-08-2009, 16:59
To be fair, if you knew your opponent had a fleeting Broodlord with the chance of a first turn assault, there's no reason you should be giving it any juicy targets. Moreover, even if an assault happened, you should be shooting said BL and unit to pieces after that initial (and unsupported) push.

Now, would that disrupt your opponent's deployment and early turn strategy? Yes, although it'd be an expensive disruption unit...and an example as to why the BL was a bad idea in the first place, since that's the Lictor's traditional role.

The designer has the chance to get it right in the new codex. Hopefully that means we'll see an actual bada$$ Lictor for the first time in 12 years...and perhaps a slight repurposing of the Broodlord.

gorgon
13-08-2009, 17:01
So the idea was to basically let Nids remain fragile, but the models that did survive to make it to CC were much more deadly.

I would *think* that'll be the general approach they'll take. Although that does assume the designers' intent is to boost hordes and give Tyranids a major CC boost. Maybe that's a safe bet, but we've been surprised before...

Revelations
13-08-2009, 18:44
Someone posted a comment about being able to take Warrriors and Gaunts like IG Platoons...
This seems like one of those 'good in theory' type ideas. I question given the current structure of the Nids and their unit sizes, how you could justify "platooning" them. They already range up to 32 in a Brood, and they NEED those numbers to survive. How is having 4 squads of 8 anymore effective? The smaller broods will be wiped out even quicker, cause an even less impact in the game. Now maybe you could explain it that it's not just 4 squads of 8, but 24 squads of 8 which makes the difference. This does cause a large target saturation problem fro the enemy, but again, the smaller broods are wiped so easily. Each enemy unit has the capacity to wipe a unit every shooting phase.

Unless of course you would allow them to keep their existing numbers so could have 4 squads of 32 each, so 128 gaunts in one troop selection, but then you're just looking at a huge price tag cost wise. You'd have to make them dirt cheap to justify the mass amounts of them. And unless you have movement trays, end up dragging the game on longer mechanically.

Or you need to increase their effectiveness, causing issue in the reverse, where you can have too many effective units for too few points (like Orks). No one would want to see Combat Squadded genestealers (although another interesting idea in theory).

Quote honestly, given that 2 other armies already have that "splitting" mechanic, I'd like to see the Tyranids go in the reverse direction, where they can attached any unit to another unit, like IC's do to any unit (like what I was attempting in my Symbiosis rule). It would keep them unique and provide them other types of bonuses.

alphastealer
13-08-2009, 19:05
Another take is to make synpase creatures povide a significant boost to gaunts that are within range. Things like Ld10, furious charge and feel no pain. Synapse is also needed in order to hold objectives.

Without being in synapse range the gaunt will be as they are now but will have some extra random movement issues to deal with. So basically it makes synapse a must.

Make the warrior T5 and make feel no pain an upgrade option for synapse creatures, then you can keep your immunity to ID and all inv saves.
Allow for that feel no pain benefit to be extended to all broods in synapse range on a 5+ rolled per turn.

Lord Humongous
13-08-2009, 19:12
There's a lot of interesting ideas here. I'm gonna recap some I liked- sorry, no credit, as I can't be buggered to hunt them down again.

Synapse
-Grants ATSKNF, plus allow auto pass / fail of morale tests. Really, the hive mind is at least as tactically smart as daddy blue MC. This plays to the nids mobility / initiative advantage, and makes shooty gaunts much nastier IF in synapse. Auto Pass still causes "No Retreat", but that is less an issue with "swarm" rules below.
-Immune to instant death as current.
-Grants mutli-wound tyrnaids "Feal No Pain" Makes 'em tougher vs heavy bolters, etc without having to raise toughness (which would affect instant death). Allows an "elite bug" army without MC spam. To powerful and fidly for the small bugs.
-Grants "Fleet of Foot" and "Move Through Cover'. A reason to keep your carnifex in Synapse, hurts small bugs not in synapse. Brooldlord would have fleet, but genestealers (and other 1 wound bugs) would NOT.
-Variable ranges- 6" for warriors, 18" for hive tyrant and Zoanthrope. Some creatures (genestealers, broodlord, raveners, lictor) have synapse, but the range is "self".
-Tyranids not in Synapse take pinning tests at the start of each turn. No, not "rage". They aren't viscious killers unless goaded by the hive mind. It makes no sense for the hive mind to engeneer slavering beasts that take constant (even if unconscious) effort to restrain. Falling back towards synapse makes regrouping from synapse loss to easy.
-

Warriors and related "midsize" bugs
-May be upgraded to toughness 5 Warriors often wouldn't need it - see swarm rule below synapse and swarm rules for why warriors would rock without it.

Swarm Rules
-Any unit(s) can join any other unit(s) to form a single unit at deployment. MC's can still be picked out when joined to units, even other MCs (retinue rules for the Hive Tyrant still mean attacks targeting him can wound retinue instead). Synapse creatures and MC's can leave units they have joined; others can not. Max combined unit size is 10 + 1 per 100 points in your army. nits are scoring if any members are troops. Lets you mix weapon types in units, provide genestealers with ablative gaunt wounds, etc. Units have a cap on max models to prevent one unit armies that suck everything in HTH like a black hole. Broodlord grants infiltrate to genestealers in his retinue, but not any other models. Want fleeting genestealers? Put in a warrior, or otherwise have them in synapse. Works in tandem with the following rule...
-Gaunts and Stealers occupy no FOC slots. Yep, take as many units of gaunts and stealers as you like, then mix them up per above. Your real limits come from the other slots, which are your only source of synapse.
-Tyranids ignore normal wound allocation rules. Treat every unit as consisting entirely of identical models. Eliminates wound allocation cheese with warrirors, but makes genestealers with ablative wounds a bigger threat. The idea is that a) the hive mind can use its own troops as cover for other troops and b) damage to individual models isn't as important because the hive mind can damp out a certain amount of pain by shifting it to other beasts.

Angelwing
13-08-2009, 19:51
To be fair, if you knew your opponent had a fleeting Broodlord with the chance of a first turn assault, there's no reason you should be giving it any juicy targets.

However, unless you have open army lists, infiltrators deploy after both armies so you wouldn't know.
The reason broodlords didn't receive 'fleet' in the current book is because it would have made them far too good within the context of 4th edition (first turn charge + consolidating into fresh units), the rule system for which broodlords were written.
What I'm seeing in this thread is some calls for improvements to be made to the broodlord when 5th ed has given them a huge boost anyway. There are many units that need help to make them 5th ed compliant. Right now the broodlord isn't one of them.

Bolter Bait
13-08-2009, 21:21
However, unless you have open army lists, infiltrators deploy after both armies so you wouldn't know.
The reason broodlords didn't receive 'fleet' in the current book is because it would have made them far too good within the context of 4th edition (first turn charge + consolidating into fresh units), the rule system for which broodlords were written.
What I'm seeing in this thread is some calls for improvements to be made to the broodlord when 5th ed has given them a huge boost anyway. There are many units that need help to make them 5th ed compliant. Right now the broodlord isn't one of them.I agree, units like Tyrants and Broodlords are in a really good spot right now with the run rule and there are other units that really need to be looked at, like Gaunts and every single FA choice. All fleeting would allow is let the BL get an extra 1-6" once per game. And coming in from the side by outflanking or starting up to 12" away from an enemy definitely is more than a 1-6" advantage.

I mean, if I'd buff the BL at all, maybe change Inhuman Strength so that the BL's rending extra dice use D6s instead of D3s against vehicles. Sort of like a pseudo-MC attack.

gorgon
13-08-2009, 21:35
However, unless you have open army lists, infiltrators deploy after both armies so you wouldn't know. The reason broodlords didn't receive 'fleet' in the current book is because it would have made them far too good within the context of 4th edition (first turn charge + consolidating into fresh units), the rule system for which broodlords were written.

Maybe keeping lists secret is the norm where you are. It isn't here. Snikrot must be devastating if that's how you play. Anyway, your argument really rests on whether or not you know your opponent has a BL. Because even in 4th you could create 4.1" consolidation buffer zones if you're that worried about it.

Actually, scratch what I said regarding knowing about the BL. In 5th the first-turn infiltration charge would still only work in games in which you won the first turn. Otherwise, you could deal with via mobility or firepower. Outflank charges would have to be dealt with as above. I dunno, I just really don't see them as all *that* uber in 4th or 5th, with or without fleet. However...


What I'm seeing in this thread is some calls for improvements to be made to the broodlord when 5th ed has given them a huge boost anyway. There are many units that need help to make them 5th ed compliant. Right now the broodlord isn't one of them.

I think the question is whether fleet will be the only change or if there'll be others. If it was me writing the new book, I'd probably explore moving 'em out of HQ and making them a non-synapse Genestealer unit commander upgrade a la Snikrot, Pask, Chronus, Telion, etc.

I just think reworked and enhanced Lictors more properly fill the infiltrator role, and the oldtimer in me just isn't sure there's enough fluffilogical support for a BL leading a Tyranid army. I imagine Phil K. wanted to create the option for Genestealer armies. While his heart was in the right place, they should probably save Genestealer Cults for a separate, proper army list treatment and not forcefit them into the Tyranid main list.

Jackmojo
13-08-2009, 22:01
I'm inclined to think the broodlord should be a brood upgrade character rather then a separate choice (which is almost what he is now since he has a required brood, IIRC), course this would leave room for our buddy the Patriarch to reappear in tun with space hulk's relaunch. :D

Jack

aaronaleong
13-08-2009, 22:19
I agree with most of what is written. The only viable tyranid list right now with all the new codex's and rules is the monstrous creature list. Not a total nidzilla list but a combination. Swarm list really don't work because you cannot consolidate into combat anymore. A mixed list of 2 hive tyrants, 5 carnifexes, and whatever will destroy most list. I guarantee this! The problem is that what made the nid list so awesome has changed. To adapt I have had to go the MC list which I may add, no one likes to play. Just my thoughts.

Abaddonshand
13-08-2009, 23:32
Okay, I've watched this post develop with interest, and figured I should post my own ideas.

Firstly, plastic gargoyles and raveners (both should be easy enough to produce, as raveners are warriors with tails instead of legs, and gargoyles are gaunts with wings instead of the third pair of legs)

On to the rules:

Army: Firstly, I want to make it clear that I like the current book, for all I've switched to my Dark Angels for most of 5th, as I like to field hordes, and Nid troops just don't cut it at the moment. Please note that I list variable costs as an estimation, which would of course be confirmed with playtesting.

Tyrants: Improve WS to 6 base, with option to upgrade to 7. Improve warp field to 5+. Give The Shadow In The Warp psychic effect for free, a la the Horror (it isn't really that powerful, and can be a boon to other armies, as Perils are removed).

Broodlord: Give fleet, give the Horror, give strength 6 base, keep everything else as is

Warriors: will deal with in elites

Elites: Warriors; Make cheaper for upgrades and base cost (e.g. 12pts per model base) OR give T5 and 4+ save as standard. Give fleet as an option, perhaps as part of the Leaping biomorph (If Soul Grinders can fleet, Tyranid warriors should be more than capable), which may not be taken if they take extended carapace for a 3+ armour save. Perhaps give BS3 base with option (appropriately pointed) to increase to BS4. Reduce cost of Rending claws to the same as scything talons, as RCs are much less effective.

Lictors: Make 10-20pts cheaper, OR give T5 and 4+ save, AND give power weapons, give an extra attack (for 4 base). Fix secret deployment, it works stupidly just now, as they randomly scatter across the terrain that they are jumping out of. Effectively I propose making it work like a deepstrike that ignores terrain penalties, scatters 1d6 or not at all, and can assault on arrival as per the current rules. Also, to clear up questions about IB, give Brood Telepathy when not in synapse.

Troops: Genestealers: Several ways of fixing these. 1. Give power weapons and an extra attack base, increase to 18-20pts per model. 2. Give an extra attack base, keep at current cost. 3. Reduce cost to 12-14pts per model.

Gaunts: Keep at 4pts base. Do not have distinction in cost of weapons for having/ not having toxin sacs and use the current lower cost at all times. I think the ideas that have been suggested about making WoN free and making them worth 0 killpoints are a bad idea, as this would make them overpowered in objective games. As a compromise, how about making WoN cost half the cost (rounding up) of the gaunt, but in Killpoint games, your opponent only gets a killpoint the first time he kills the unit. As others have suggested, make spinefists count as an additional CCW.

Hormagaunts: Lower cost to 8pts base (double a normal gaunt) OR give furious charge at current points cost (thus allowing for "true" hypergaunts, who could be upgraded to have WS5, I6 St5 on the charge).

Rippers: Make winged option cheaper, as necron scarabs are just as good (sometimes better) for half the cost of winged rippers.

Fast Attack: Raveners: Drop to 20pts base cost OR give T5 and 4+ save base. Give them Synapse (more on my ideas about synapse later), effectively removing the need for winged warriors (the models for which could of course be used as "counts as" raveners). Reduce cost of rending claws as per warriors, as they are much less effective now.

Gargoyles: Return to 10pts per model cost of previous book.

Spore Mine Cluster: Remove!

Heavy Support: As with Tyrant, make warpfield a 5+ invulnerable. Increase BS to 4 and reduce WS to 2 (after all, these are effectively atrophied floating brains a la Gideon Ravenor - say what you like about the man's CC ability, his psychic accuracy is amazing! :p). Give them the Horror for free. Keep all else as is.

Biovores : Do something, anything, to make them worthwhile! I wouldn't like to see them removed, as they've been here since the beginning, but lets have them be useful! The suggestion somewhere above about making them have flamer type options would be pretty good. Perhaps give them an IG Hellhound-esque range weapon (assault profile obviously), which would make them good gaunt support weapons.

Carnifex: Remove or make useful the current pointless biomorphs (e.g. make thornback mean that the wounds inflicted against an enemy unit are doubled for combat resolution purposes - almost exactly the same job as it did under 4th edition). Give Brood Telepathy to remove any IB issues. Lower cost of Crushing claws by 5pts. Give a base WS of 4, with option to upgrade to 5 (appropriate costing). Keep all other options and elite fexes as is.

Army Wide:

Okay, firstly Rending: N.B. If this suggestion is followed, then my other suggestions for improving Genestealers need be ignored, and warriors/ ravenors should not get a rending claw price reduction. As a Tyranid special rule, all Tyranid creatures with Rending operate as per 4th edition.

Venon Cannon: Allow to penetrate, and make it AP -, meaning it will have -1 on the vehicle damage table.

Barbed Stranglers: The unit fired upon count as in difficult terrain until the following Tyranid player turn, as they have been covered in alien flora from the seed pod fired at them (a fluff rule I wanted to throw out there)

Flesh Hooks: give to all tyranids as base (if marines and CSM get bolt pistols, frags and kraks, I think we're entitled to these).

Snyapse: Ranges - 18" on Tyrants, Broodlords and Warriors taken as HQs (the latter is to represent the Hive Mind improving beasts that will stand in for Tyrants/ Broodlords) - 12" on Elite Warriors and Raveners. Synapse creatures are immune to instant death. All other creatures within Synapse have Feel No Pain and automatically pass any LD value based test they are required to make (N.B. This does not mean they are fearless!) Creatures not in synapse role a D6, on 1 or 2 they flee towards the nearest synapse creature, on 3 or 4 they act normally, on 5 or 6 they rage. If for any reason Tyranid creatures fall back, they do so towards the nearest synapse creature. Upon coming within Synapse range the broken unit automatically rallies, regardless of facters such as enemy proximity or being under half strength. Tyranid units do not need to be within Synapse range to count as scoring.

IhasAshuvel
14-08-2009, 00:25
Why do people have such a hard-on for giving synapse creatures eternal warrior?

The reason it exists currently (and was even in the design notes for the current codex) was to stop people kraking all the warriors to death - make them T5 and the problem goes away, then eternal warrior can be handed only to those most deserving (like tyrants), not just any mook that happens to be hanging around.

CthulhuDalek
14-08-2009, 00:44
I've been tinkering with the idea of a "Synaptic Web" where Warriors and their offshoots have a lesser synapse cababilty when compared to more specialized creatures.

I have a LOT of changes to the 'dex in regards to other things but this is the gist of how it'd work...

Synapse Creatures(Hive Tyrant, Zoanthrope, Malanthrope, Broodlord), grant any unit within 12 inches the Stubborn USR.
Leaderbeasts(Warriors, Raveners, Lictors, Biovores) grant any unit they're a part of their leadership value of 10. Gaunt units would normally be leadership 5.

Instinctive behavior:(all gaunt units are normally fearless with a leadership of 5. This means they ignore all leadership tests except for...) roll a leadership test at the beginning of every movement phase. On a passed test the unit functions normally, on a failed test roll a d6. 1-2 fall back towards the nearest synapse creature(then table edge), 3-4 go to ground, 5-6 RAGE. Units outside of synapse range may not capture objectives.

Something like that... still working on it.

My gaunts are also...

ws. 3 bs. 3 s. 4 t. 2 w.1 i. 4 a. 1 ld. 5 sv. - pts. 7

special rules: fearless, without number, instinctive behavior, mutable genus.
unit size 10-30(plus 1-3 warriors)
must take one of the following for free:
-wings(become FA)
-mycetic spores(think of a fleshy drop pod, but 1-3ish per unit)
-leaping(become beasts, gain implant attack -- in my dex implant attack is a reroll on rolls to wound of a 1) also, this could be replaced by a "transport bug" I forgot what the old one was called...

weapons: come with spinefists base. May take scything talons free, or devourers/fleshborers for 1 pt.

Without number: basically the same as before, but whenever a unit comes on again it's slightly better with a new special rule? Still counts for killpoints.

The basic idea of this is..."please take gaunt hordes!" because now gaunts and warriors would be part of the same unit, and will ALWAYS be fast. Their profile is slightly worse than an ork boy, though with the ability to always use without number, they make up for their points. I think perhaps an increase to 8 points could work as well.

People will probably be pissed that they aren't using 4 points gaunts -- but if you've sent your first wave in quickly enough they'll do a lot of damage, probably die off and then come back(possibly via deepstrike with their mycetic spores!) and be in the fray quickly enough to make up for their 8 points base.

With this set-up you can take... 7-8 point gargoyles with scything talons, or 8-9 point fleshborer gaunts deepstriking out of a mycetic spore... The possibilities would be very diverse and brutal. Also, in my list raveners, lictors, biovores etc are UPGRADES to basic warrior broods(which are part of gaunt units now and could also be used separately perhaps)

Firaxin
14-08-2009, 00:54
I mean, if I'd buff the BL at all, maybe change Inhuman Strength so that the BL's rending extra dice use D6s instead of D3s against vehicles. Sort of like a pseudo-MC attack.
My version of Inhuman Strength has him rending on a 4+ instead of a 6+, much like that daemon special character.

I wonder if that would be a good way to improve Lictors, too...

Egaeus
14-08-2009, 01:54
This seems like one of those 'good in theory' type ideas. I question given the current structure of the Nids and their unit sizes, how you could justify "platooning" them.

Well it is just and idea and would need to be played with. Obviously nothing is set in stone at this point. To me the idea is more about making Warriors an integral part of the Gaunt base by making them part of the associated unit. So the idea would be something like 0-1 Warrior Unit and 1 or 2-? (maybe just limiting it to two) normal-sized (i.e 8-32) Gaunt units. Just like Guard, game point values are going to be the limit on how many you can reasonably field. My concern would actually run the other way and worry that people would take minimum-sized Gaunt units in order to field large numbers of Warriors, espcially if Warriors are made better. Also fundamentally this in theory lets you potentially run very large hordes. I personally find it sad that Guard can outnumber Gaunts 3:1 with a single Troops choice (note that this is purely in body count...I'm sure the points are wholly in the Gaunts' favor).


Quote honestly, given that 2 other armies already have that "splitting" mechanic, I'd like to see the Tyranids go in the reverse direction, where they can attached any unit to another unit, like IC's do to any unit (like what I was attempting in my Symbiosis rule). It would keep them unique and provide them other types of bonuses.

Just want to point out that I made this same suggestion in the post you quoted. And a few others have made similar suggestions...



There's a lot of interesting ideas here. I'm gonna recap some I liked- sorry, no credit, as I can't be buggered to hunt them down again.

Yeah, I had the same problem ;)



Synapse

Personally, I would like Synapse go back to simply "units in range are Fearless" and that's it, although I understand that adding other rules under the blanket of Synapse does tend to make things a bit easier to organize. Note that doesn't mean I wouldn't like some units to have some of these rules, just not necessarily under the heading of Synapse.

The only possible caveat here would be what I have been calling the "Cannon Fodder" rule that is meant specifically to address Guants but might be nice for other units to have as well, which is simply that they get to ignore No Retreat rules. Sad thing is, Fearless used to be this way and it was too good...but the developers still appear to be thinking in terms of Space Marines to whom a couple more potential saves aren't such a big deal. For units that aren't meant to win combats (and this does go back all the way to 3rd edition) but merely to tarpit this is a big deal.


Swarm Rules
-Any unit(s) can join any other unit(s) to form a single unit at deployment. MC's can still be picked out when joined to units, even other MCs (retinue rules for the Hive Tyrant still mean attacks targeting him can wound retinue instead). Synapse creatures and MC's can leave units they have joined; others can not. Max combined unit size is 10 + 1 per 100 points in your army. nits are scoring if any members are troops. Lets you mix weapon types in units, provide genestealers with ablative gaunt wounds, etc. Units have a cap on max models to prevent one unit armies that suck everything in HTH like a black hole. Broodlord grants infiltrate to genestealers in his retinue, but not any other models. Want fleeting genestealers? Put in a warrior, or otherwise have them in synapse. Works in tandem with the following rule...
-Gaunts and Stealers occupy no FOC slots. Yep, take as many units of gaunts and stealers as you like, then mix them up per above. Your real limits come from the other slots, which are your only source of synapse.
-Tyranids ignore normal wound allocation rules. Treat every unit as consisting entirely of identical models. Eliminates wound allocation cheese with warrirors, but makes genestealers with ablative wounds a bigger threat. The idea is that a) the hive mind can use its own troops as cover for other troops and b) damage to individual models isn't as important because the hive mind can damp out a certain amount of pain by shifting it to other beasts.

Interesting rules but they seem somewhat clumsy. I understand the desire to prevent players from joining a full unit of 'Stealers to full unit of Gaunts and then just rampaging across the board, but if they don't count for FOC I don't see why you wouldn't take full 'Stealer squads and then as many "ablative" Gaunts as you could to fill up the unit...it doesn't seem to me that this would solve any problems about Gaunts being bad as there still really doesn't seem to be a point to having them as a distinct unit.

Just curious as to what exactly counts as Troops in this army then? That is, I thought things that "didn't count for FOC" don't fulfull your compulsory choices...which is significantly different then simply allowing unlimited Troops slots (a minor rules quibble most likely, but still something to consider).

Just another minor quibble...when you say "synapse creatures can leave" are you still tied to unit organization...i.e. say I join a unit of Warriors...I would assume if they wanted to leave they would have to leave as a unit, not just split them off one by one...I am guessing this is you intent but you know how GW writes their rules...:p

I do like the concept of "swarming up", I suggested it myself in a previous post. It's just one of those things that would need quite a bit of playing with to get it just right. Which means that it's probably an idea that GW won't go with. :evilgrin:

Angelwing
14-08-2009, 13:57
I dunno, I just really don't see them as all *that* uber in 4th or 5th, with or without fleet.


They weren't that good in 4th because they didn't have fleet as well as infiltrate. With both they would have been too good as they could have pulled off first turn charges. Instead they were an interesting and quite balanced unit.
Right now in 5th they get outflank which is a powerful ability. They can even run if they turn up on the wrong flank. They are far superior to how they worked previously. I agree thats it's not so 'uber' that it's an automatic choice. I simply disagree with the call to pimp the broodlord out, usually with a points reduction when it's not required.

Most tyranid players know which units have problems in the 5th ed context. I'm a huge tyranid fan who likes all the units, but even I could only come up with certain situational uses for many of them. Sometimes that situation is only 'because it looks cool'. It's those units that need the help. Amusingly enough the broodlord needs help with this last point. The current model isn't that cool!

gorgon
14-08-2009, 14:48
Most tyranid players know which units have problems in the 5th ed context. I'm a huge tyranid fan who likes all the units, but even I could only come up with certain situational uses for many of them. Sometimes that situation is only 'because it looks cool'. It's those units that need the help. Amusingly enough the broodlord needs help with this last point. The current model isn't that cool!

As you can probably see from my previous post, I'm all in favor of breaking a few eggs with the new codex. Quite honestly, I don't think it's the quick repair job -- dropping some points, slapping on a new USR here or there -- that some (mostly non-Tyranid players) think it is. Clearly there are things that just don't work right now.

Having said that, if they find solutions to Gaunts, Hormagaunts and Warriors (and their interdependence and relationships), there'll probably be a good framework established that will help other issues/units fall into place. A lot depends on the designer's (is it confirmed that it's Robin Cruddace?) conceptualization of the army. I'm hopeful I'll like the approach, although it's not like GW hasn't on occasion delivered something quite different than what the player base wanted or expected. And so it is that hobbyists tend to have a little trepidation mixed in with their anticipation of a new army book/codex.

Just so you're clear, I wasn't trying to bust your chops about the BL thing. I was just reacting to the first-turn charge issue, which I think is a little overrated for the reasons I've stated.

alphastealer
14-08-2009, 16:49
I really like the idea of changing inhuman strength to be a rending upgrade, that moves rending from a 6+ to a 4+.

If this was a standard feature for broodlord, lictors and raveners then we are talking. Warriors could take it as an upgrade. So could genestealers but at a premium cost.

Another idea is by following the fluff on raveners that they can burrow and move underground. This could done as follows:

The ravener can start the game either above ground (like all the normal infantry or below ground, or by deepstrike. If he deepstrikes he is automatically below ground.

If he has the option to move above/below at the start of the movement phase but can only change back at the start of the next turn.

If he moves below ground then he is slow and purposeful and can only assault 6. If he is above ground then he moves like he currently does, except he gets a reroll of the fleet dice roll.

The good part of being underground is that he cannot be shot at but can be assaulted. If a ravener is charged he surfaces and fights normally. If the ravener wins combat he is entitled to burrow as his consolidation move.

I would keep him at current stats, just add +1 attack to his base profile, then he becomes a really fun and unique creature.

The lictor can gain inhuman strength as above and get +2 base attacks at his current points and rending on a 4+. The rest of his stats can be kept the same except that at the end of combat he has the option to leave the board and to be deepstruck in the next turn on a successful reserves roll based on the normal roll needed per turn for reserves. When he comes back he can be placed anywhere in any kind of cover with no scatter and can assault that turn.

silverstu
14-08-2009, 17:06
Having said that, if they find solutions to Gaunts, Hormagaunts and Warriors (and their interdependence and relationships), there'll probably be a good framework established that will help other issues/units fall into place. A lot depends on the designer's (is it confirmed that it's Robin Cruddace?) conceptualization of the army.

Harry mentioned a while back when the first rumours of nids came along that it was Robin. I hear he did a very good job with the imperial guard codex so I'm hopeful that he will do well with the nids. I can't comment on current rules- i haven't played 5th at all, let alone with nids but from what i gather the horde and midrange critters aren't up to much- stealers, tyrants, fexes and small WoN gaunts are good at the moment. I prefer the horde/mixed approach myself. as well as fixing the current problems I hope the options are extended- new biomorphs/weapons and possibly a new creature[something bigger in fast attack say]. With the opportunity of new kits/fresh sculpts I think this is possible.
Anyway- enjoying the ideas you guys are throwing up.

Deadnight
14-08-2009, 17:37
would nids work better if the "horde" units had bigger squad sizes?

like make gaunt squads 20-40 big, or something?

just curious.

Abaddonshand
14-08-2009, 18:01
Gaunt units can already go up to 32 man units, but most players in my experience prefer to run 16-24 man units.

PhalanxLord
14-08-2009, 18:27
@Abaddonshand: Your changes seem weird. "Give warriors a 2pt price break or +1 T and +1sv"? Or "make lictors 10-15pts cheaper or give them +1T, +1A, and power weapons"? In both of those the second choice seems good, but the first one doesn't seem to be going nearly far enough. Also, I disagree with a fair few of your assertions. At 10pts even with furious charge horms would still be overcosted. The problem with them isn't so much that they can't deal damage but that they die too easily for their points and they don't deal much damage without massive upgrades. I also hate the idea of adding warriors to gaunt units. One of the best parts about nids is that there aren't any sergeants or anything-> each unit is one big mass. I also disagree with the whole VC thing. It doesn't make sense fluffwise for supersonic shards of electrified poisoned crystals to have less piercing power than a ball of maggots. Personally I don't even see the problem with VCs penning. If people are really that offended by penning VCs perhaps it should just be "VCs count as AP- when they pen" so that they aren't make worthless on the glance.


However, unless you have open army lists, infiltrators deploy after both armies so you wouldn't know.
The reason broodlords didn't receive 'fleet' in the current book is because it would have made them far too good within the context of 4th edition (first turn charge + consolidating into fresh units), the rule system for which broodlords were written.
What I'm seeing in this thread is some calls for improvements to be made to the broodlord when 5th ed has given them a huge boost anyway. There are many units that need help to make them 5th ed compliant. Right now the broodlord isn't one of them.

I would have to disagree with the Broodlord. While I don't care about the whole infiltrating thing, people generally don't deploy much withing 12" of the board edge (or even within 18"). The broodlord does need fleet. What it doesn't need is infiltrate-> scout would work just fine or possibly fit even better. Would replacing the infiltrate thing with scout and giving it fleet be better in your eyes? Right now I wouldn't use it over even just plain stealers because even normal stealers tend to have trouble getting into combat right off of an outflank and its even worse for the BL. At least with normal stealers in the two turns they're there they'd get an extra 2d6" which can make a lot of difference between being shot for one turn or two.


Why do people have such a hard-on for giving synapse creatures eternal warrior?

The reason it exists currently (and was even in the design notes for the current codex) was to stop people kraking all the warriors to death - make them T5 and the problem goes away, then eternal warrior can be handed only to those most deserving (like tyrants), not just any mook that happens to be hanging around.

People have a hard on for EW because nids have it now. People tend to have a lot of fixations with past rules whether they fit or not (just like the VC thing which isn't really needed IMHO). Personally I agree with just giving the midsized 2W T4 nids T5 (and maybe a 4+ base because as people have pointed out it does fill in the chart of T and SV pretty nicely) and be done with it.

gorgon
14-08-2009, 19:15
At 10pts even with furious charge horms would still be overcosted. The problem with them isn't so much that they can't deal damage but that they die too easily for their points and they don't deal much damage without massive upgrades.

A lot of people don't understand or remember that Leap was a huge deal under the original 3rd. ed. CC rules. Hormagaunts were the only unit in the game that could use their full attacks within 2". Now that rules have changed, their offensive output has dropped proportionately compared to the rest of the field. And unfortunately, Phil Kelly goofed in the 4th edition book by leaving Hormagaunt pricing alone. So what we're left with is a unit *still* priced for a 3rd ed ruleset.


I also disagree with the whole VC thing. It doesn't make sense fluffwise for supersonic shards of electrified poisoned crystals to have less piercing power than a ball of maggots. Personally I don't even see the problem with VCs penning. If people are really that offended by penning VCs perhaps it should just be "VCs count as AP- when they pen" so that they aren't make worthless on the glance.

VCs had no special pen restrictions when they were conceived in 2nd ed., nor in the 3rd edition rulebook list. That was an arbitrary change made for the 3rd. ed. codex because in the rulebook list, a 2 shot, S8 gun (this is before X weaponry) in the hands of a Hive Tyrant seemed overly good.

Shows you how much the game has changed, because that's obviously kinda ho-hum now. Given that Tyranids need all the help they can get in the current mech-heavy environment, there's no reason they need to keep that arbitrary restriction. If it's too effective vs. vehicles, then adjust its S value and/or carefully restrict how many you can spam -- just like you would for any other gun in any other army.


People have a hard on for EW because nids have it now. People tend to have a lot of fixations with past rules whether they fit or not (just like the VC thing which isn't really needed IMHO). Personally I agree with just giving the midsized 2W T4 nids T5 (and maybe a 4+ base because as people have pointed out it does fill in the chart of T and SV pretty nicely) and be done with it.

Although I'd consider giving the Tyrant EW just because it tends to be such a key part of a given army. Then again, if Warriors are finally done right, there should be plenty of other synapse on the table. As always, it's a chain of dominoes...

Lord Humongous
14-08-2009, 19:32
Interesting rules but they seem somewhat clumsy. I understand the desire to prevent players from joining a full unit of 'Stealers to full unit of Gaunts and then just rampaging across the board, but if they don't count for FOC I don't see why you wouldn't take full 'Stealer squads and then as many "ablative" Gaunts as you could to fill up the unit...it doesn't seem to me that this would solve any problems about Gaunts being bad as there still really doesn't seem to be a point to having them as a distinct unit.

Just curious as to what exactly counts as Troops in this army then? That is, I thought things that "didn't count for FOC" don't fulfull your compulsory choices...which is significantly different then simply allowing unlimited Troops slots (a minor rules quibble most likely, but still something to consider).

Just another minor quibble...when you say "synapse creatures can leave" are you still tied to unit organization...i.e. say I join a unit of Warriors...I would assume if they wanted to leave they would have to leave as a unit, not just split them off one by one...I am guessing this is you intent but you know how GW writes their rules...:p

I do like the concept of "swarming up", I suggested it myself in a previous post. It's just one of those things that would need quite a bit of playing with to get it just right. Which means that it's probably an idea that GW won't go with. :evilgrin:

Yeah, clumsily written and in need of refinement, to be sure.

I expect people WOULD take full GS squads and flesh them out with gaunts. That's not unintended. However, properly priced gaunts would have uses of thier own, especially if you joined a synapse creature (warrirors) to the unit. A bunch of termigaunts with high strength shooting joined to some shooty warrirors... given that they would have ATSKNF and "god of war"... welll, you get the picture. Not every unit would want or need stealers.
My intent was that gaunts, stealers, ripopers, etc would still count as troops (scoring etc) but you could take as many as you liked. I forgot there's a requirement to fill two troop FOC slots. I suppose an alternate method might be to let people take as many of a single unit type as they like per troop slot. Since there's only 4 troop unit types, you'd never had an issue, afaik.
Yes, by "synapse creatures can leave", I mean whole units. Warrior squads, tyrants (with or without retinue), broodlord with reinue, etc.

I agree, its something that would need some real playtesting and tight rules writing. I'm not pesamistic about GW doing that though- they pulled it of rather nicely in the IG codex, after all.

Angelwing
14-08-2009, 20:23
I would have to disagree with the Broodlord. While I don't care about the whole infiltrating thing, people generally don't deploy much withing 12" of the board edge (or even within 18"). The broodlord does need fleet. What it doesn't need is infiltrate-> scout would work just fine or possibly fit even better. Would replacing the infiltrate thing with scout and giving it fleet be better in your eyes? Right now I wouldn't use it over even just plain stealers because even normal stealers tend to have trouble getting into combat right off of an outflank and its even worse for the BL. At least with normal stealers in the two turns they're there they'd get an extra 2d6" which can make a lot of difference between being shot for one turn or two.



I guess you play on boards much bigger than mine! :p I use a 4x4 for 1000pt games. Assuming planet bowling ball, the BL moves 6 and can assault 6 giving a range of 12". With the two turns you mention for standard stealers, he will get a move of 6, run of D6, then move of 6 and assault 6, which is a minimum of 19". There is the potential for 24", half my entire board!
I expect that they will be given fleet in a new codex, but if nothing else changes beyond that, I expect a points increase too.

Firaxin
14-08-2009, 21:10
I really like the idea of changing inhuman strength to be a rending upgrade, that moves rending from a 6+ to a 4+.

If this was a standard feature for broodlord, lictors and raveners then we are talking.
:D:cool:

And that's not the only neat thing I've come up with. I'm compiling a document with all my wacky ideas, I'll post in this thread eventually.


Another idea is by following the fluff on raveners that they can burrow and move underground. This could done as follows:

The ravener can start the game either above ground (like all the normal infantry or below ground, or by deepstrike. If he deepstrikes he is automatically below ground.

If he has the option to move above/below at the start of the movement phase but can only change back at the start of the next turn.

If he moves below ground then he is slow and purposeful and can only assault 6. If he is above ground then he moves like he currently does, except he gets a reroll of the fleet dice roll.
Hmm... Cool, but I fear it's a bit too complicated for the current generation of 40k.

What about a Wraith's Phase-Shift ability; just give it an invulnerable save when not in close combat and counts as having frag grenades when assaulting an enemy in cover (without having to buy flesh hooks)...?

Nym
14-08-2009, 22:34
A lot of people don't understand or remember that Leap was a huge deal under the original 3rd. ed. CC rules.
Correction : Leap is still a huge deal, especially when combined with Fleet.

The 12" assault range guarantees you will never get "rapid-fired" by anyone, except Deepstrikers. It's also a near guaranteed assault against anything but the fastest units (jump infantry, open-topped vehicles cargo).

When wishing for better hormagaunts, a lot of people go overboard and think that Hormies are supposed to be shock assault troops. That's genestealers guys, not Hormies.

Hormies are fast assaulters meant to tarpit units that are weak in CC, to prevent some nasty shooting. Send them against basic Marines, Guardsmen, Dire avengers, Lootas, etc...

They're the light cavalry of 40k, not heavy hitters... Stop wishing for Furious Charge or crazy things like that, it's not their role.

PhalanxLord
15-08-2009, 00:13
I guess you play on boards much bigger than mine! :p I use a 4x4 for 1000pt games. Assuming planet bowling ball, the BL moves 6 and can assault 6 giving a range of 12". With the two turns you mention for standard stealers, he will get a move of 6, run of D6, then move of 6 and assault 6, which is a minimum of 19". There is the potential for 24", half my entire board!
I expect that they will be given fleet in a new codex, but if nothing else changes beyond that, I expect a points increase too.

I play at my local GW where they use 4x6 boards (which is the standard size IIRC) and a 4x8 that everyone just uses as a 4x6 anyways. Either way, the extra fleet move is extremely important in boards that size because the ability to snag an enemy that strayed within 18" of the board is big because most people keep their main parts in the center outside of that 18" range but sometimes they just aren't careful enough. Either way, the extra d6" can be very useful.

While I think broodlords are a bit undercosted for what they can do right now compared to lets say some (C)SpaM, I'm not so positive that they will get a price increase. The fact that they're stuck with an expensive retinue that you must take is a rather important point and they don't seem to get used that often so I can see GW leaving them mostly alone except for giving them fleet. Plus there's the whole point that Tyrant are just better for a small price increase over a lone broodlord because it doesn't have to take the expensive retinue and can be essentially as good in combat with shooting and higher toughness and wounds. You can give a tyrant TS, 1xTl'd Dev, and ST for around 109pts or so IIRC and you have a unit thats just as good in CC against 99% of things, but is tougher and can dish out the pain with shooting.


Correction : Leap is still a huge deal, especially when combined with Fleet.

The 12" assault range guarantees you will never get "rapid-fired" by anyone, except Deepstrikers. It's also a near guaranteed assault against anything but the fastest units (jump infantry, open-topped vehicles cargo).

When wishing for better hormagaunts, a lot of people go overboard and think that Hormies are supposed to be shock assault troops. That's genestealers guys, not Hormies.

Hormies are fast assaulters meant to tarpit units that are weak in CC, to prevent some nasty shooting. Send them against basic Marines, Guardsmen, Dire avengers, Lootas, etc...

They're the light cavalry of 40k, not heavy hitters... Stop wishing for Furious Charge or crazy things like that, it's not their role.

The problem is that horms can't tarpit worth a crap right now. Also, their whole fleet + 12" range is hardly unique. Plenty of units such as Rough Riders and Flesh Hounds have that too and they're only very slightly more expensive but much more powerful and harder to kill. Rough riders are what, 2pts more and they get s5 and power weapons on their first charge? And a better save? And a gun? And flesh hounds for 5pts more (essentially all the horm upgrades minus flesh hooks) are T4, invulnerable, and have furious charge. Not only that but you can take a unit of 10 orks with a pk nob, a big shoota, and a trukk for around 150-160pts-> the same price as 16 horms. But while they both can get into CC reliably on turn 2, the boyz will kill significantly more, be a bigger threat, and will be harder to kill.

So pretty much while you call them a tarpit unit and stuff, they are costed more like an offensive unit and because of their glass cannon nature they fail at tarpitting. We don't really want them to be as powerful as stealers, but it isn't going too far to say we want them to at least kill something on the charge and not cost significantly more than what they're worth. One of the reasons tarpits are good is because you can hold up an expensive unit for a long time with a similarly costed or cheaper unit. Horms will hold up a unit for a short time at its cost or higher and when gaunts can charge ~24 within 2 turns reliably due to fleet it sorta takes away a lot of the reason to take hormagaunts. The extra 6" is useful, but not at twice the price and less attacks on the charge.

One last bit: The 12" assault range doesn't guarentee anything. If after you fleeted you were between 13" to 18" away from the opponent you're getting RF'd and most people can't really judge the difference between 13" and 12" or 18" and 19" that well.

alphastealer
15-08-2009, 08:38
I agree with the problem with haumagaunts. In the current edition unless something has a high save, T or FNP it cannot tarpit anything. In fact I do not know of anything that can tarpit a full ork boyz mob with a powerclaw nob.

So that leaves 2 options. Either keep the haumagaunt with simple stats but give him furious charge and drop the points by 3. Or give him 2 attacks extra on the charge.

In fact as an idea to fix some of the tyranid lack of close combat effictivness would be to give the 'tusked' carnifex option as a army specific rule. So then all tyranids get +2 attacks when charging instead of the regular +1. This would be fluffy as tyranids have big jaws and long teeth to bite with.

Marines who get the same number of attacks are just swinging 2 arms; tyranids have an extra set of limbs and are more inclined to bite the enemy, so surely more base attacks should be something to consider for the army as a whole.

So even with current costed stuff if you added +1 base attack to each tyranid and gave them +2 attacks each on the charge you would really make them a proper glass hammer, that actually kills things before dying.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 08:43
I agree with the problem with haumagaunts. In the current edition unless something has a high save, T or FNP it cannot tarpit anything. In fact I do not know of anything that can tarpit a full ork boyz mob with a powerclaw nob.

You do realise that is an incredibly flawed example right?

A tarpit unit isn't meant to take on other huge squads unless it is a huge squad of seriously crap models (like conscripts) and your average squads (like tactical squads) who lack the ability to munch through wounds.

A full boyz unit will tarpit stuff themselves and have the number of attacks to eat through stuff.

Hormagaunts are good at tarpitting (though still overcosted) but the undisputed kings of it are scarabs.

[edit] "I cannot tarpit berzerkers with a T3 5+ save model, it is unfair!"

big squig
15-08-2009, 08:45
I really like the idea of changing inhuman strength to be a rending upgrade, that moves rending from a 6+ to a 4+.

If this was a standard feature for broodlord, lictors and raveners then we are talking. Warriors could take it as an upgrade. So could genestealers but at a premium cost.


Rending on a 4+ is actually better than just having power weapons though. I can just see stealers or lictors or raveners wounding a T8 wraithlord on a 4+ with no saves...

I'd actually just consider making rending claws simply power weapons. Seems a bit extreme, but in most cases it tends to not be that over powered.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 08:49
Rending on a 4+ is actually better than just having power weapons though. I can just see stealers or lictors or raveners wounding a T8 wraithlord on a 4+ with no saves...

Makes me wonder if it is worth to go down the poisoned route - lictors with poisoned (2+) will deal a ton of wounds, couple this with a reasonable save (say 4+) and your lictor is now a moving engine of destruction.

It will hit pretty hard but with only 2 wounds it won't hang around if it takes on massive squads or specialists.

Hmm that is a thought, what if lictors were T5 or had 3 wounds?

Nym
15-08-2009, 10:18
The problem is that horms can't tarpit worth a crap right now.
I beg to differ. Against all the units I mentionned, the Hormagaunts will statiscally (at equal OR lower point levels) win or tarpit the unit for several rounds. That's more than enough for the bigger critter to close-in.


Also, their whole fleet + 12" range is hardly unique. Plenty of units such as Rough Riders and Flesh Hounds have that too and they're only very slightly more expensive but much more powerful and harder to kill. Rough riders are what, 2pts more and they get s5 and power weapons on their first charge? And a better save? And a gun? And flesh hounds for 5pts more (essentially all the horm upgrades minus flesh hooks) are T4, invulnerable, and have furious charge. Not only that but you can take a unit of 10 orks with a pk nob, a big shoota, and a trukk for around 150-160pts-> the same price as 16 horms. But while they both can get into CC reliably on turn 2, the boyz will kill significantly more, be a bigger threat, and will be harder to kill.

Classic mistake when it comes to game balance : comparing stuff with other codeces. All these units have a very different role in their own respective codex, or occupy a niche.

Rough riders : Fast attack. IG heavy hitters, meant to counter-attack and destroy heavily armoured foes.

Flesh hounds : Fast attack. Pay 1.5x as much for their better stats. Compete with Furies in their role.

Orks boyz : the bread and butter of their army. Orks lack medium infantry with rending or power weapons, so the basic trooper needs to pack all those things and be able to break through their opponent armor thanks to sheer number of attacks. If their codex had a 4+ save unit with access to power weapons and high Init, the Ork boy could probably be a bit more expensive.


We don't really want them to be as powerful as stealers, but it isn't going too far to say we want them to at least kill something on the charge
They already do kill things, but people want them to kill dedicated assault units : not their role. They should die in droves against any descent assault unit.


One last bit: The 12" assault range doesn't guarentee anything.
It does, for people who know how to guess range (knowing the size of vehicles and GW's scenery). I can count on one hand the number of times my Hormies got assaulted, and I played 'Nids for 7 years. Sure they often died before doing anything, but that were bullets not directed toward my Stealers.

Hormagaunts need a point reduction, because of how the designers reduced all the point costs in recent codeces. They don't need flashy rules. Once again : don't except them to kill anything stronger than a Marine, it's not their role *in their codex*.

PhalanxLord
15-08-2009, 15:19
I beg to differ. Against all the units I mentionned, the Hormagaunts will statiscally (at equal OR lower point levels) win or tarpit the unit for several rounds. That's more than enough for the bigger critter to close-in.

How big of a unit of horms are you talking? Besides while killing lootas is all fine and dandy, how often does the opponent not put something between you and the lootas? And generally why not just use gaunts? 6" less range and thats all, but for half the points you can have twice the number.



Classic mistake when it comes to game balance : comparing stuff with other codeces. All these units have a very different role in their own respective codex, or occupy a niche.

Rough riders : Fast attack. IG heavy hitters, meant to counter-attack and destroy heavily armoured foes.

Flesh hounds : Fast attack. Pay 1.5x as much for their better stats. Compete with Furies in their role.

Orks boyz : the bread and butter of their army. Orks lack medium infantry with rending or power weapons, so the basic trooper needs to pack all those things and be able to break through their opponent armor thanks to sheer number of attacks. If their codex had a 4+ save unit with access to power weapons and high Init, the Ork boy could probably be a bit more expensive.


Perhaps, but I still think horms are a bit crap for their current point costs. While furious charge sounds fitting, I don't give a crap about it as long as they get lower point costs. But overall, I think you're missing the point I'm making. Horms are overcosted for what they deliver to the table. Even if other units in other armies occupy a different niche (Flesh Hounds actually occupy the same one as horms and furies are crap due to their I3) there is a vast difference in capabilities for similar point costs.

As for the last point with ork boyz there, nids don't have howling banshees either. ;)



They already do kill things, but people want them to kill dedicated assault units : not their role. They should die in droves against any descent assault unit.

Thats true, but I find they have trouble killing most things, even non-dedicated assault units. Upping their killing potential would make them a more effective tarpit because that way they aren't losing masses of numbers due to enemy attacks.

It is possible to make horms killier though. A unit of 20 suped up horms (+WS, +S, +I) can kill a tactical squad on average in 2 rounds of combat with minimal losses, or even beat a full 30 man ork unit in combat with major losses. But it dies instantly to shooting and you've just wasted your 14pt models. Either way it would get crushed by combatty units such as terminators.



It does, for people who know how to guess range (knowing the size of vehicles and GW's scenery). I can count on one hand the number of times my Hormies got assaulted, and I played 'Nids for 7 years. Sure they often died before doing anything, but that were bullets not directed toward my Stealers.

My stealers generally aren't on the board when my horms are (horms tend to die fast as everyone seems to hate them while stealers outflank).

We weren't talking about horms getting assaulted. That pretty much doesn't happen if the nids player is competant unless they're already in an assault or the enemy gets some crazy luck with a special rule (ex: vanguard vets). What I mentioned was that horms do get rf'd, be it having your move off by an inch or the enemy using transports to move that extra inch or two.



Hormagaunts need a point reduction, because of how the designers reduced all the point costs in recent codeces. They don't need flashy rules. Once again : don't except them to kill anything stronger than a Marine, it's not their role *in their codex*.

We're in agreement here. They do need a point reduction (and have since the 4th ed book came out) and they don't need flashy rules. They shouldn't be able to kill any dedicated assault unit, I agree. But I do think they should be able to reliably take out a tactical squad without taking the entire game to do so and without wasting a lot of points on them.

Epicenter
15-08-2009, 16:34
Also, the fact that tyrants have more wounds shouldnīt make them easier to oneshot.
Granted the increased toughness is good protection vs force weapons and the like, I still feel that a 6++ save isnīt really a save.


I keep seeing this pop up in this thread but:

Come on, you guys, Force Weapons? :confused:

What is this weird fear of Force Weapons that people seem to be fixated with? Do you really imagine some Librarian is going to be like Leonidas from the movie version of 300 with your TMCs being the mooks he's cutting down?

Force Weapons should be fearsome - they're not that common. They're pretty much HQ-only weapons in most armies. You're going to be facing two if your opponent tools up for you - but most armies in 40k are weak to being tooled up against by an opponent anyway. Most "take all comers" armies aren't going to have two Force Weapons. There's just other kinds of HQ units people want to use - most Marine armies have no Force Weapons.

So let's say the army does have a Force Weapon. Yes, they're power weapons. Now, let's look at what he has to deal with. If he fights a Hive Tyrant or even a Warrior, these things are going before him. Tyrants basically have their MC rules that are even better than Force Weapons against the Librarian. If the Librarian somehow lives to hit back (not exactly likely). Now, he still has to hit (4+ in most cases - so half his attacks miss) and wound (4+ against mid-sized nids, even worse against TMCs - there's no such thing as a Force Fist or Force Hammer that most armies get, I think Coteaz from the DH gets one?). He'll probably get a Wound on a Warrior. Probably nothing on anything tougher. He has to have a Psychic Power unused if it's his turn, then he has to pass his Psychic Power test (vs. Shadow in the Warp no less).

It's difficult to imagine that any of the suggestions on the thread are done with any thought of balance when people are demanding that nids be made immune to Force Weapons to me.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 16:49
The only two force weapons that matter is the nemesis force weapon on the Grey Knight Grandmaster and the one Typhus is carrying (poisoned really hurts).

Bolter Bait
15-08-2009, 18:12
Wall of Text, be warned.

Immunity to force weapons is a little over the top to begin with and Epicenter is correct, they're a rare weapon that sees little action, even less with other HQ units suddenly developing a rash outbreak of of "Eternalitis." Barring a Grey Knight Grandmaster or Typhus, the best chance to wound a Tyrant with a FW is on a 6 To Wound roll. Plus, if that Tyrant has a retinue of Guard, the controlling player can just put most of the wounds onto the Guard, further minimizing the chance of wounding the Tyrant.

Simply put, the Hive Tyrant is the best 'balanced' MC in the game. Not as individually tough as a Wraithlord, no, and not as obscene as a Lash Prince, definitely not. But what other army can field a MC that can be as versatile as a Tyrant, provide an invaluable Ld buff as a Tyrant, or can effectively come with 10 T6 Wounds?

Now, to address Lictors. As far as they go, they're definitely a mixed bag. Pheromone Trail was good in 4th for Escalation and it's good now for ensuring that an Outflanking Broodlord comes to town at a reasonable time. Likewise, Feeder Tendrils was kind of pathetic in 4th, as all the broods that could come with FTs had WS 6, so the only real benefit was supporting other broods. Now that Preferred Enemy is a reroll, suddenly, even alone, FT are pretty good in 5th.

But really, paying 80 points for a reroll to Reserves and for a model that stands just outside of combat in order to give other units PE while avoiding combat itself is just silly. What is just as silly, however, is giving Lictors Power Weapons AND Rending on a 4+ to Wound. That's just... ridiculously obscene. That's 3(4) attacks that reroll to hit (on 3+ usually), Wound on a 4+ and ignore saves. Wow.

Still, Lictors just don't hold their own right now, despite being described as lone predators. So they need... something to tweak them a bit in order to live up to what they are described to be. But first, lets look at a Lictor a little bit. Statwise, they're a Warrior with Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Flesh Hooks, both kinds of Adrenal Glands twice each and Toxin Sacs twice, with Feeder Tendrils thrown in for good measure. Say that doubling those biomorphs is worth triple the cost and FT is worth 2 points. Well that's 50 points right there.

Now, Fearless is part of Synapse, so taking away Synapse shouldn't drop the cost by too much, as it's just the Eternal Warrior half that is gone. Loner is no longer a disadvantage, so no discount for that. Secret Deployment is more of an advantage than a disadvantage, but not by much. Hit and Run isn't worth too much as there is no more "Kill-zone clearing" to keep a T4, W2, Sv 5+ model alive until the end of the Assault. Stealth is worth a fair penny on a CC unit that cannot afford to be shot. Finally, Pheromone Trail is an ability that would be hard to place a tangible value on, but it's not cheap in my mind.

Using multiples of 5 for most of these extras, just to keep the math simple, -5 for no Eternal Warrior, +5 for Secret Deployment, +5 for Hit and Run, +5-10 for Stealth and +10-15 pts for Pheremone Trail gives us a Lictor that is priced between 70-80 points. Well, with my conservative valuing of stats and special rules, a Lictor is just about appropriately priced. Now, the question is, are the current special rules for a Lictor being overvalued or is the Lictor really just appropriately priced for it's rules on paper, but still turns out to be rather lackluster? One thing to consider is that with 3 Lictors giving out 3 separate KPs on some missions could warrant a further discount, dropping them to the 70 point region.

Clearly 40 point Lictors are far too underpriced with all their advantages compared to Warriors and the value of an 80 point Lictor is highly debated. Even I think I was being too conservative and overvalued the cost of the stats and special rules. Even going extreme and undervaluing the extras a Lictor gets, they'd weigh in around 60 points each. Could people be happy with Lictors as they are now, costing 60 points each, for a unit that most people take expecting to die? Or are people expecting too much from a Lictor, throwing them into Assault Squads and expecting similar results as from a Carnifex or a Tyrant with a full retinue?

Personally, I'd be fine with increasing their points some, decreasing their Strength to 5, adding +1 Attack and finally, giving all their attacks the benefit of 4+ Poisoned Weapons and the Implant Attack biomorph. This lowers their effectiveness against vehicles, but turns them into terrors against light infantry and small units of multi-wound models, like Nobs or other Tyranid units.

The other changes I would make, personally, would be to increase their Toughness to 5, just like I would to all other Warrior-sized Tyranids at the cost of removing Eternal Warrior from Synapse, and change Secret Deployment to function similar to a Chaos unit entering play via Deep Strike. Except in this case, it's being within 6" of terrain that causes no scatter rather than a unit carrying an icon. This would allow Lictors to enter play anywhere on the table, but would encourage them to be used to strike near terrain in a surgical manner, arriving precisely where they're needed. Of course, a points increase for both changes would be required as that change to Secret Deployment is quite the mind game against the opponent.

massey
15-08-2009, 19:14
The problem with Lictors is exactly that sort of "add up the points" thinking, and it's a problem that is seen throughout the Nid codex. If you have a model, and you keep adding extras to him for more points, you're going to eventually end up with something dramatically overpriced.

Why don't people load up gaunts with all the extras? When was the last time you saw someone take a big group of scuttling, +1 Str +1 Init +1 WS +1 save gaunts? It's probably been a while. The reason is because while any one of those upgrades might be decent on a model intended for a particular use, they don't stack well and they eventually lead to you having a guy who still dies just as easily to bolters, but costs twice as much.

Lictors suffer because they're a 2 wound 5+ save creature, and they don't have a brood of other models around them to soak hits. So giving him more WS doesn't really do anything. How much more is a 6 WS worth over a 5? The only thing it does is it means you hit most characters on a 3, but against squads it does nothing. Secret deployment and the brood size of 1 means that Lictors are mostly unsupported, so even with their great offensive stats, they're a glass hammer.

On a charge, a Lictor will generally do 3 wounds to a squad of 10 guardsmen. Assuming they fail all their saves, that leaves 6 guardsmen and a sergeant to strike back. That's 9 attacks, on average they'll put a wound on that Lictor. If they've got something to keep them in combat (which they generally should), they'll kill the Lictor on their next turn.

This limits Lictors to normally attacking the absolute weakest opponents you can find. They're costed as if they're getting good benefit out of all those biomorphs, but the problem is that those biomorphs just end up making a T4 5+ save model too expensive to be worth taking.

Firaxin
15-08-2009, 19:25
This lowers their effectiveness against vehicles, but turns them into terrors against light infantry and small units of multi-wound models
Honestly... I don't think that's such a good idea, much less what any of us want to hear.

"This lowers their effectiveness against vehicles."
Repeat that silently to yourself for a good few hours.

Now. What was the 'nid's greatest weakness again? Oh yeah...
Between virtually invulnerable 'fexes to Barbed Stranglers to Deathspitters etcetcetc, 'nids have enough ways to take out light infantry.

Which is why Rending (4+) would help them. Not power weapons. That's too much, like you said.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 19:32
How about you just give lictors meltabombs and be done with it?

I mean a lot of posters simply want to give them an ability to make them kill everything fairly easily so go the full length on tanks.

Firaxin
15-08-2009, 19:40
Well that would be too easy.

Plus it wouldn't help them kill characters.
:p

Lictors shouldn't be able to kill everything. They should still lose to a Devastator or Tactical squad, or even a guardsmen squad. They don't need more than 3 attacks, they just have to be good attacks, so they can semi-reliably assassinate that commander or take out that tank, etc.

Remember the story of the Lictor that stood motionless in the middle of an IG command center for hours until the general showed up, and then it struck? Lictors aren't disruption units, like Raveners, or even Gargoyles. They have a very specific role to perform, but they just can't do it, currently.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 19:49
They have a very specific role to perform, but they just can't do it, currently.

Rending on a 4+ doesn't solve the issue, it just confuses their role.

You'd be better off with implant attack and poisoned (2+) if you want to snipe lone characters and for killing tanks simply give them 2D6 armour penetration.

That for 80 points is fairly good, though a 4+ save couldn't hurt.

[edit] Plus I am not familiar with the story you mention - could you say where it comes from? (sounds worth reading).

Vineas
15-08-2009, 20:48
Some good suggestions but some OTT and some just are plain silly.

Seriously, Power weapon EQ and +1 Attack for 'Stealers? Even at 20 points that is just way too much. While IG and Orks wouldn't care too much it would be grossly unfair to anything in power armor or even termie armor. 'Stealers kill just fine as they are. Maybe lower the points cost of some of the biomorph upgrades a bit (like 2pts for EC instead of 4) but 'Stealers are still deadly in an assault, they don't NEED help in that department and with 4+ save and T4 can survive retaliation (assuming there is anything left of a squad to retaliate against them).

Rending changed to 4+ is also just way OTT. Maybe it's just my luck with 'Stealers but they have never failed to completely wipe out any unit I throw them at, even now in 5th where "ZOMG RENDING IS THE SUCK". I don't normally go tank hunting but there isn't a non-vehicle unit I have thrown them against and not wiped it out to the man, EVER, in any of my games. 10 Zerkers? Check. 10 Ogryns? Check. 10 Plaguemarines? Check. I could continue but I think you get my point.

T5 on Warriors is a good idea and one of the only ones I've seen make sense. T5 on Lictors isn't needed but it wouldn't hurt the lictor to have his 5+ save at least be an invul in CC or maybe give him a 4++ save vs cc and his normal 5++(modifiable as current for cover) vs shooting. 4++ save in CC will keep him alive better than an extra pip of T would. Lictor also doesn't need to be the Broodlord clone. Give him 2d6 vs vehicle; increase his survivability vs CC with the 4++ save and then I think he would be worth 80pts. I find it hard to justify his cost but I always take the 2 I have because the models are the sex and it's just a staple of the 'nids to have them around.

Warriors...lower pts cost and maybe 4+ save standard with NO option to improve it (we don't need MEQ's in our army) and bump to T5, make them synapse....and I know I might get flamed but DON'T let them have all BS or VC. If I want to play an army with Devastators I'll just focus on my Sallies. Current options for them are fine, they just need to not die so easily.

Gaunts......keep them as is, lower Hormogaunt cost to 6, give them Ork boy stats with +1 Initiative and +1 attacks base with LD5.

Carnies....they are fine as is with the options they have. Just update some of the now obsolete biomorphs to 5th (thornback, etc)...maybe change Crushing Claws to +d3 attacks (although TBH 99% of the time I will roll a 6 for the # claw attacks......no lie, my luck with rolling 6's with 'nids is that insanely good. I usually get more rending wounds than normal wounds with my 'stealers). :)

Biovore..not sure where to go with this one.....have no ideas.

Sorry for the large wall of txt. I could go on to give my opinion of every unit in the 'dex but I only touched on the ones mostly ranted about in regards to the current rules. It might be my insane luck (see carnifex entry above) or just my own personal experience but in my gaming group my 'nids are the army NOBODY wants to face and we have nearly the full range of armies played (DE being the ONE army none of us has yet). Even with the apparently "weak" 'stealers and overpriced warriors I win alot more than I lose and the guys I play with know their armies and being all in the military they know battlefield tactics and how to adjust. FYI I play 'stealershock.

I like the option to NOT have to take all gaunts. If hormgaunts get Ork boy stats and ork boy pricing I might consider them to expand my list. I like what Robin did with the IG codex in allowing build flexibility. Now instead of just ONE good build there are 4 good builds and I'm hoping he will let 'nids do the same and if Phil doesn't have a sole hand in writing it as rumored he may provide ideas for Robin; either way I am sure it will come to be a very good codex. I don't want to play a gaunt horde as that has no appeal to me. I like my 'stealershock army and anyone saying it is not fluffy doesn't know 'nids. It won't be perfect as even the IG and SM codex have a few WTF entries but then again IMO it doesn't need a very major overhaul; 80% of the 'dex is just fine as it is.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 20:53
Hormagaunts are better off with S4 as opposed to T4.

Bolter Bait
15-08-2009, 20:53
Honestly... I don't think that's such a good idea, much less what any of us want to hear.

"This lowers their effectiveness against vehicles."
Repeat that silently to yourself for a good few hours.

Now. What was the 'nid's greatest weakness again? Oh yeah...
Between virtually invulnerable 'fexes to Barbed Stranglers to Deathspitters etcetcetc, 'nids have enough ways to take out light infantry.

Which is why Rending (4+) would help them. Not power weapons. That's too much, like you said.We have trouble killing tanks? If a tank is moving too fast to catch in CC with a Carnifex or the like, then it's moving too fast to shoot and no longer needs to die. Likewise, if it's a skimmer, it's usually dying to a fusillade with such weak armour. It really sounds like people are saying "Tyranids can't kill Land Raiders or Monoliths" which isn't a problem that only Tyranids have.

Vineas
15-08-2009, 21:34
We have trouble killing tanks? If a tank is moving too fast to catch in CC with a Carnifex or the like, then it's moving too fast to shoot and no longer needs to die. Likewise, if it's a skimmer, it's usually dying to a fusillade with such weak armour. It really sounds like people are saying "Tyranids can't kill Land Raiders or Monoliths" which isn't a problem that only Tyranids have.


THIS...

If a LR is moving fast enough to drop its Termies off (and I don't know anyone who takes an LR and doesn't put termies in it) it's not shooting. LR's are not that great of a threat shooting wise.

MBT's shoot alot....IG put out a scary number of tanks but majority of Guard MBT's (and SM MBT's for that matter) are AV10 on rear; even 'stealers can mess up a tank in assaults.

Why does 'Nid army have to be good at every facet of the game? It excels at killing infantry in CC, it's shooting is okay....it is subpar at killing tanks at range....why does this weakness not need to be there? So that people can say our codex is broken?

Marines can be tailored to kill tanks but if you do that it's subpar at shooting infantry and only mildly good at assault; if you tailor Daemons to be good at killing tanks at range (ie mono-tzeentch or tzeentch heavy) you will be subpar at assaults and only midly good at killing med-to heavy infantry (light infantry will die in droves but the metagame is marine centric).

Why do SOME 'nid players act like we should have it all?

HsojVvad
15-08-2009, 21:51
What I don't understand is why lots of Tyranids like Gaunts have a low save but looked better armoured than Imperial Guard that have a 4+ save but look less armoured than gaunts.

IG are in T shirts and a helmet gives them a 4+ save? WTF?

Tyranids either need higher saves or half the cost so they can have more mini's on the table.

Gutlord Grom
15-08-2009, 22:14
What I don't understand is why lots of Tyranids like Gaunts have a low save but looked better armoured than Imperial Guard that have a 4+ save but look less armoured than gaunts.

IG are in T shirts and a helmet gives them a 4+ save? WTF?

Tyranids either need higher saves or half the cost so they can have more mini's on the table.

The basic IG infantryman is armored with a mighty 5+ save. The veterans can be given the Grenadier upgrade (carapace), as well as Storm troopers have carapace . There was doctrine that gave all Guard infantry carapace armor last Guard codex, but that's long gone.

I think you are mistaken.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 23:07
What I don't understand is why lots of Tyranids like Gaunts have a low save but looked better armoured than Imperial Guard that have a 4+ save but look less armoured than gaunts.


Flip it the other way - a bikini gives the same save as what essentially amounts to an armadillo's shell (commonly found on gaunts).

OanMkoll
15-08-2009, 23:11
I however agree that the tyranids have issues and i understand alphastealer skepticism. IMO Nids have to become more of a horde army with some allowance for a little nidzilla or warrior-stealer esque armies. Following the streamlining of 5th, fexes should become a little better with penetrating cannons but they should only be HS. Gaunts need -1/2 points, hormagaunts need 1/2 points cost.

I also agree with alphastealer's suggestions, especially on more T5 and FNP, i think the tyranid list should work like a food pyramid. On top are the few tough mostrosities and as we work our way down we see warriors and specialists with gaunt at the massive bottom.

Gaunts could be 3 points a model at 1/2 price! Hell, why not just make them free! Hormagaunts should go down in points, but not by 1/2! More T5? Really? Tyranids already have loads of MC's and they don't need any help! FNP on 'Fexes as an upgrade maybe, but not for the smaller guys. I think Tyranid weapons are fine as they are, because 'Nids aren't supposed to kill heavy tanks from long range. If you want long range anti-tank play a different army.

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have gone on this thread because I knew I'd get angry...

Edit: Oh my god, I only read the first few posts and now I see some people think giving 'stealers power weapons is fair? What? I know this is a rant, but don't be ridiculous. I shouldn't have to (and won't) explain the brokenness of that idea, but I'm sure Big Squig, that if you thought about it for a few moments you would see the absurdity of that idea.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 23:14
More T5? Really?

You are aware why T5 is needed on warriors and ravenors (primarily) right?

PhalanxLord
16-08-2009, 03:40
Well that would be too easy.

Plus it wouldn't help them kill characters.
:p

Lictors shouldn't be able to kill everything. They should still lose to a Devastator or Tactical squad, or even a guardsmen squad. They don't need more than 3 attacks, they just have to be good attacks, so they can semi-reliably assassinate that commander or take out that tank, etc.

Remember the story of the Lictor that stood motionless in the middle of an IG command center for hours until the general showed up, and then it struck? Lictors aren't disruption units, like Raveners, or even Gargoyles. They have a very specific role to perform, but they just can't do it, currently.

What nice fluff selection. Personally I was always a bit more partial to the pieces about lictors tearing apart units of guard like they were nothing and doing solo hit and run attacks to break down tactical squads, both of which they fail at now. They also fail at character hunting because they don't really deal out enough wounds even with implant attack and poisoned 2+ and feeder tendrils to pose much of a threat to most characters. Sure they will often hit and wound all 4 times, but the character still needs to fail 2 saves to die.
...
...
Or maybe that is a very good character killer lictor now that I think about it. The fact that the enemy would have to fail enough saves (or you would have to get enough rends) while dealing double wounds means that its fully capable of killing any character, but against 3+ saves will generally only deal 1 wound (multiplied to 2) but with a good potential to do more.

Personally what I think is that lictors should get +1 attack and +1 wound (like in 3rd), T5 (as all the T4 multiwound nids should have), and perhaps some sort of CC save(optional, but when you think about it most assassins have a dodge save) in addition to the whole poisoned(3+ as 2+ is a bit much)/implant attack thing. As long as it doesn't cost an overly large amount (it would definately earn a good long consideration at 80pts, but 100pts would be too much IMHO) that would give it the staying power to not get killed by everything in combat and not evaporate to shooting, the assault power to take on guardsmen and slowly killy a tac squad with hit and runs, and it would fit the fluff as an assassin and something that even marines would consider a threat while not being so power that it could hope to defeat a dedicated assault unit (barring a low armoured one like nobz which it would tear to pieces).

Egaeus
16-08-2009, 09:23
Had a passing thought...what if, instead of any kind of Fearless, Synapse simply provided an unmodifiable Ld 10 to all units within range? Obviously I haven't given this a lot of thought so I don't know if there's any gamebreaking issues here or not...

Offhand it seems like it could do quite a bit to fix things with Gaunts...they would now have to test when losing a combat, and on the rare occaision they could be pushed back...the theory is that the unmodifiable part comes from the fact that they simply don't care about losses, so the negatives that (at least to me) represent the demoralization of losing a combat badly simply don't apply.

Just a thought I wanted to toss out there for consideration.

One of the interesting things I've noticed in the thread is the tendency to pick a couple of units and attempt to fix them. The thing is, without an idea of how the rest of the Codex is going to be organized and priced -- obviously GW could do the "band-aid" approach and just tinker with unit costs, or they could go all-out and try a different approach altogether -- it can be hard to say what will actually fix a specific unit (Lictors and Broodlord seem to be a popular choice here). Not that it's a bad thing, as it can be interesting to discuss how to make certain units fit the role they're meant to play in the army. Another thought is the possibility that weapons and biomorphs might get different rules, so again some possibilities become more interesting and some become somewhat moot.

DarkstarSabre
16-08-2009, 09:52
Well, from what I've seen some of the problem lies in the way things work now with the proliferation of rules since 3rd and 4th edition.

Synapse - Currently works as Fearless and Eternal Warrior. EW is far too common for what it does in this game and Fearless is more of a hinderance now with the No Retreat wounds which overwhelm the tarpit units that are meant to be bogging the enemy down.

However the whole 'Fearless' thing has always been a tradition amongst Tyranids since 2nd edition and EW was introduced because of Instant Death which lead to the medium sized creatures exploding like tomatoes every five seconds.

Solution?

Synapse grants Stubborn Ld 10 on the same radius with certain creatures (Synapse Creatures, Monstrous Creatures, Swarms, Lictors) being Fearless to start with. This solves the No Retreat problem with gaunts, makes the army virtually immune to any sort of morale issues and still allows units to be broken and driven back.

T4 multi-wound Nids should go up to T5 and have their saves increased - though with the proliferation of S10 weaponry since Tau came in I'm not too sure that in itself would be sufficient. It certainly prevents the 3rd ed. issues but due to how the game has evolved it might not be enough for them to be viable.


Lictors - Currently overcosted for what they actually do, hindered by their forced deployment method and certainly not resilient enough to act as lone creatures.

The lictor is a throwback to when Rending was good, rare and not proliferated or gutted as liberally as it has been. It is a throwback to when DSing into difficult terrain did not run a risk of wounds. Let's be honest though. Since 2nd edition the Lictor has gone downhill. It's too expensive for what it does, Sly Marbo being its closest counterpart in game. The easiest fix? Well, the Toughness increase for medium creatures, an additional wound or easiest of all....

Poisoned attacks. Poisoned + Rending would help Lictors a lot. A point reduction and the problem solves itself.

In general Tyranids need point reductions across the board.

Gaunts, Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Gargoyles, Warriors, Raveners....all these creatures are hideously overcosted for what they do. With the recent trend of point reduction this is more and more obvious.

The biggest victim is the Hormagaunt. 10 points was acceptable in 3rd edition when no one else had that attack 'radius'. 10 points was acceptable in 4th when the attack-casualty radius existed so wounds to attacks were somewhat controlled.

10 points in 5th is certainly not acceptable. Tyranids are paying premium prices for something which everyone else got for free. That is not on at all. Bring the points down or change what Leaping actually does. These are their options.

Venom Cannons - The penalty on glancing hits only, especially when you consider how much tougher vehicles have gotten and how much rarer venom cannons got since their codex came out is cumulative and makes the 'nids suffer far too much. Eldar, Orks, Marines, Guard....yeah, not pretty at all. The fact that Tyranids themselves lack any sort of 'transport' only adds to this.

Not only do they have issues dealing with enemy armour from range but they simply cannot do all that much to actually catch it to deal with it in melee.

The Fleet-Run debate ties in with this. Originally Fleet was introduced because some of the 'faster' armies seemed so much slower than they should be with the loss of the movement values. Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tyranids were given Fleet in 3rd to make them fast. For the Tyranids this was particularly important because they had no transports whatsoever. It is an infantry swarm that has to close with the enemy to be effective...forcing them to walk across a table to get shot to pieces before they got there....

Well, didn't they do the maths once with Orks when they explained the reasoning behind Choppas? Too few were surviving to get into melee and when they got there they didn't even do anything due to the way saves had changed since 2nd edition. Compound this with 5th editions rules where everyone within 2 inches attacks, casualties can be removed from outside the combat radius and no retreat kicks in and the big Tyranid melee tarpit unit vanishes in under a single turn having done nothing of value. Sweeping Advance is gone. You cannot go from unit to unit to avoid being shot apart. You cannot tarpit reliably. You cannot even get there reliably due to a lack of transports and everyone else also getting Run.

Yes, a revamp is needed.

For the way Synapse works.
For how the Swarm itself works.

Abaddonshand
16-08-2009, 14:48
Perhaps a way to fix lictors would be a special rule meaning only models in base to base can fight with them, and be wounded/ inflict wounds on them. This gives back value to hit and run, as well as making it a fairly effective character assassin.

Bolter Bait
16-08-2009, 15:45
Perhaps a way to fix lictors would be a special rule meaning only models in base to base can fight with them, and be wounded/ inflict wounds on them. This gives back value to hit and run, as well as making it a fairly effective character assassin.Or just simplify it as

Bio-Assassin: Lictors can spend hours motionless, watching for just the right moment to strike. The player controlling the Lictor nominates which models must take saves against wounds inflicted by a Lictor, following all other normal Wound Allocation rules. A Lictor may choose to ignore intervening models if that would allow it to move into base-to-base contact with an Independent Character in the unit during it's assault move.

Without any other tweaking to the Lictor, this would permit them to 1.) Live up to fluff, 2.) Make important models take saves, 3.) Gets around the retinues/units that every single IC is hiding in now because of the change to IC targeting rules during the shooting phase.

Which, frankly, is barely a buff right now. A current Lictor can kill, on average, inflicts 1.97 unsaved wounds on Guardsmen on the assault with no Rending, or 2.07 unsaved wounds on Guardsmen if the average Rending roll comes up. We're looking at a dead sarge and maybe a special weapons grunt. Its even less pretty against MEqs.

Still, it would give the Lictor a specific role in the Tyranid list - threat removal. Right now, it's caught in a limbo of being a light infantry killer, a "supposed" character killer and a tank buster, none of which it particularly excels at.

As for the argument that doing a band-aid approach to fixing specific units rather than the entire list together has it's merits, I for one am not spending 80 points on a Lictor just to give my Gaunts PE when I can add a Feeder Tendril Broodlord to the Genestealers that I am already taking and have the same effect on a model that can actually perform on the tabletop.

MasterDecoy
16-08-2009, 16:27
id be happy if the lictors special rule was that on any turn it charged it may innitiate a hit and run at its inititive step (rather than at combat resolution)

itcamefromthedeep
16-08-2009, 20:32
Some of you would have already seen my take on 5th ed Tyranids from a couple months back.

Fandex (http://www.scribd.com/doc/18666568/TyranidsFandex?secret_password=186hy3f8uay0t7yeqq2 2)

Some obvious stuff, some weird stuff, and some stuff from way out of left field.

Egaeus
16-08-2009, 20:55
Still, it would give the Lictor a specific role in the Tyranid list - threat removal. Right now, it's caught in a limbo of being a light infantry killer, a "supposed" character killer and a tank buster, none of which it particularly excels at.

I suppose to me one of the biggest issues is finding the proper role for the lictor in the context of the army. It seems to me that an assassin unit would be doing most of its work around a battle rather than in the thick of it. My personal interpretation is that the Lictor is meant as psychological warfare/backfield disruption. Psychological warfare in that it makes the opponent really consider where to put things if they're worried that a Lictor or three could pop out and mess them up. Backfield disruption since they have a much broader deployment range and can often pop up right in the middle of an enemy army (assuming proper placement).

The unit I always liked to compare them to is the Callidus...here we have a unit that can appear anywhere on the board, move, shoot and assault with pretty significant weaponry. Back in the days before the Inquisition books every Imperial army seemed to have one. They were just that good. So they got "balanced" a bit by needing an Inquisitor handler (one can always argue the merits of such a ruling, but it did cut down on the number of Assassins that you saw). They are still pretty pricey but I don't think anyone questions their usefulness.

I'll go ahead and toss in another special rule for consideration: "Surprise Attack": The lictor's chameleonic scales help it remain hidden from detection, allowing it to strike swiftly and unexpectedly. When the Lictor assaults, the charged unit does not get to React.

If the 'Nid player can carefull orchestrate his attacks, he can pick off a few models and the rest won't get to retaliate. The Lictor will probably go down next round, but at least it will get to potentially tie up the unit it was fighting. If this is an absolute ability (that is, if you assault with other units as well) it could really help with the tarpitting aspect, since there might not be quite as many attacks coming back on the unit(s). Lastly, this is simply the way combat worked in 3rd and 4th edition, so it really shouldn't be too overpowered.



As for the argument that doing a band-aid approach to fixing specific units rather than the entire list together has it's merits, I for one am not spending 80 points on a Lictor just to give my Gaunts PE when I can add a Feeder Tendril Broodlord to the Genestealers that I am already taking and have the same effect on a model that can actually perform on the tabletop.

I didn't mean to say that it isn't appropriate to look at individual units as well to figure out how to get them to fill their roles, just that if the book does receive a major rewrite we might have other changes that make some of the suggestions less useful. What if they decide Feeder Tendrils only affect the unit that has them? Or that you can attach a Warrior with FT to a brood of Guants thus making the Lictor unnecessary for providing it? In both these cases it would mean a cheaper Lictor since it wouldn't be seen as such an advantageous support unit. Fundamentally in my mind this is one of the biggest problems with the overpriced nature of a lot of Tyranid units...the theory is that they provide bonuses to other units so they are more expensive to cover that possibility. But when you don't take units that will gain the advantage, then they are simply overpriced.



id be happy if the lictors special rule was that on any turn it charged it may innitiate a hit and run at its inititive step (rather than at combat resolution)

The problem is that if you H&R on the turn you charge it becomes the enemy's turn and they simply shoot your Lictor to death. Now if it could do that at any time, then it might become useful, although potentially too useful...jump into assault, hope you survive, fight the next round then H&R...oh, it's my turn again? Move and assault again. Although in the end it really keeps the Lictor as a one-hit wonder that is too expensive.

Firaxin
17-08-2009, 02:55
Why do SOME 'nid players act like we should have it all?
Because we deserve it! :p


Personally I was always a bit more partial to the pieces about lictors tearing apart units of guard like they were nothing and doing solo hit and run attacks to break down tactical squads,

It seems to me that an assassin unit would be doing most of its work around a battle rather than in the thick of it. My personal interpretation is that the Lictor is meant as psychological warfare/backfield disruption.
You guys have to think about the Lictor's role in relation to all the other units in the army.

A character assassin doesn't exist in the army. A backfield disruption/tactical squad-breaking hit and run attack unit already exists, it's called the Ravener. If you give the Lictor the same role, what's going to happen is one of them will be better at it, and the other will simply never be taken.


Bio-Assassin: Lictors can spend hours motionless, watching for just the right moment to strike. The player controlling the Lictor nominates which models must take saves against wounds inflicted by a Lictor, following all other normal Wound Allocation rules. A Lictor may choose to ignore intervening models if that would allow it to move into base-to-base contact with an Independent Character in the unit during it's assault move.
That sounds good, too, though definitely probably wouldn't be enough by itself.


Some of you would have already seen my take on 5th ed Tyranids from a couple months back.

Fandex (http://www.scribd.com/doc/18666568/TyranidsFandex?secret_password=186hy3f8uay0t7yeqq2 2)
Here's my biggest reactions:

Overall: Doesn't seem like you changed much aside from a few points deductions and streamlining some rules. Which doesn't fix the main problems with the list, like No Retreat wounds etc.

Specifics:
--Instinctive Behavior would be a helluva lot simpler if you just gave them the Rage special rule, cause that's basically what you did.

--Spinefists: you're not alone on this. I don't understand the recent obsession by people to wanna make Spinefists grant +1 attack. It makes scything talons obsolete, and makes hormagaunts even less useful. Why would a warrior want to buy a set of scything talons, when he could take a spinefist and get a free shooting attack?

--Not sure on the Crushing Claws. Seems overly complicated, and potentially cheesy (capable of inflicting 3+3d6 or 2+4d6 wounds on an enemy squad?)

--You removed Shadow in the Warp, the Horror, and Warp Field psychic powers? Why?

--Catalyst seems useless.

--Psychic Scream replaces shooting and merely causes a pinning test? You're running towards the enemy, and any unit that you want to prevent from closing with you is probably immune to pinning anyways... Besides, it has a range of 12", it would probably be easier to just charge the unit.

--On gaunts, why are 24" assault 1 sniper rifles the same price as fleshborers or spinefists?

--You made Lictors 20pts cheaper, but they don't get +2 to cover saves any more and they don't get a cover save in the open... I see they got +1 wound, but now they really don't have a hope in hell of being more than a 1 strike suicide unit. Oh, and you lowered their WS and Initiative. :eyebrows:

--How does capping a Carnifex's strength at 8 and making them 100pts base help matters?

itcamefromthedeep
17-08-2009, 04:33
Overall: Doesn't seem like you changed much aside from a few points deductions and streamlining some rules.
That's pretty much what I think they need. Note that virtually every stat line and points value changed, if only to keep GW legal off my back (It's useless for making a Tyranid list under current rules). There were some pretty big changes in there, though. I don't honestly believe GW will do anything about No Retreat, so I didn't try.


--Instinctive Behavior would be a helluva lot simpler if you just gave them the Rage special rule, cause that's basically what you did.
Oddly, Rage doesn't make you assault (pg76). There were a few other reasons to make it not Rage. You're right that it's pretty close, though. I might have made it Rage just to make sure every USR in the BRB was there.


--Spinefists: you're not alone on this. I don't understand the recent obsession by people to wanna make Spinefists grant +1 attack. It makes scything talons obsolete, and makes hormagaunts even less useful. Why would a warrior want to buy a set of scything talons, when he could take a spinefist and get a free shooting attack?
First, Spinefists are a pair of pistols (just look at the model). Second, Spinefists are more expensive than talons in each case. Third, Hormagaunts trade those guns for speed and WS at the same price, which I think is fair.


--Not sure on the Crushing Claws. Seems overly complicated, and potentially cheesy (capable of inflicting 3+3d6 or 2+4d6 wounds on an enemy squad?)That's one of the more funky rules I put in, mostly for fun (and as a creative way of messing with Eternal Warriors). Remember that for many models the claws won't do anything, because like current Implant Attack the overkill is wasted on one-wound models. For those who don't care to read, when a model takes an unsaved wound form Crushing Claws, it takes D6 more unsaveable wounds (the 'Fex grabs and squeezes). And a +1 on the vehicle damage chart.


--You removed Shadow in the Warp, the Horror, and Warp Field psychic powers? Why?
Shadow in the Warp is very situational and as a result I've never seen it taken. The Horror is easily forgotten, because Hive Tyrants rarely get assaulted, and even more rarely are they assaulted by units that take Morale tests. Warp Field is represented in the stats of a Zoanthrope, and on a Hive Tyrant there is no way to model the upgrade, so your opponent can't look at the model and immediately know what it does.


--Catalyst seems useless.
Counter-Attack is kinda nifty, but admittedly not super-special awesome, which is why you don't pay much for the power.


--Psychic Scream replaces shooting and merely causes a pinning test? You're running towards the enemy, and any unit that you want to prevent from closing with you is probably immune to pinning anyways... Besides, it has a range of 12", it would probably be easier to just charge the unit.With a Zoanthrope? Causing multiple pinning tests on multiple units hasn't been done before. It's new and interesting.


--On gaunts, why are 24" assault 1 sniper rifles the same price as fleshborers or spinefists?
They don't have the sniper rule, they're "spike rifles". They have worse Strength and AP then a Fleshborer (at 18" there), and don't grant an extra Attack like Spinefists would.


--You made Lictors 20pts cheaper, but they don't get +2 to cover saves any more and they don't get a cover save in the open... I see they got +1 wound, but now they really don't have a hope in hell of being more than a 1 strike suicide unit. Oh, and you lowered their WS and Initiative. :eyebrows:
Unit size 1-3. Fleet. First turn charge (Infiltrate, Scout, move, run, assault).


--How does capping a Carnifex's strength at 8 and making them 100pts base help matters?
I gave them Tank Hunters, so the Strength is deceptive. The Strength got lowered because having the Carnifex at 9 and the Tyrant at 5 for the same piece of plastic seemed absurd to me. So the Tyrant went up and the Carnifex went down. The lower Strength affects the (currently spectacular) Barbed Strangler, but not a whole lot else. Also note the Initiative 2. And note that the base 100pts includes talons, which is about as close as you can get to a current Carnifex with 2 sets of talons.

I thought you'd be angry about a whole bunch of other stuff. A refreshing set of complaints, that was. Thanks for reading, by the way.

getupandgo
17-08-2009, 04:56
I realize you guys got nerfed a little in 5th edition, but in 4th?? come on.. the 'nidzilla list was one of the most over-abused and over-powered lists in the game at that point.

No offense, but nids needed to get whittled down a little. Players with little-to-no skill were winning tournament games left and right with that build.

PhalanxLord
17-08-2009, 05:08
Some of you would have already seen my take on 5th ed Tyranids from a couple months back.

Fandex (http://www.scribd.com/doc/18666568/TyranidsFandex?secret_password=186hy3f8uay0t7yeqq2 2)

Some obvious stuff, some weird stuff, and some stuff from way out of left field.

Lets see... My opinion is that I'd probably quit nids if that was our new book. It removes a lot of the stuff that I love nids for (Implant attacks, variable statlines, etc) without giving us anything that makes it seem worth it in any way. Lictors are much worse than they are now in it. You've pretty much forced everyone into a shooting army because its close combat abilities are crap. Take fexes for example-> you've just killed their close combat potential by keeping their crappy WS and giving them no way to make up for it. Fleshhooks also lost one of their best abilities and crushing claws are useless except against enemy MCs where its overpowered to hell. On the other hand, fexes are better at shooting because they have tank hunters (auto-12 min armour pen for VCs even if you removed their ability to pen open topped) but they've lost their ability to deal with nob bikers due to the unwarranted BS nerf. You've also boosted the cost of death spitters so much that for warriors devourers are an auto-take. Stealers are fleeting infiltrators which means they instantly have a 1/6 chance to make a first turn charge. You boosted the cost of Tyrant guard and nerfed them for some odd reason when they weren't really overpowered in the first place. And shooting tyrants are just as broken as before if not moreso (150pts nets you a d00d that always hits on a 4+ with re-rolls and wounds anything in the game on a 3+ with re-rolls with both shooting and CC). Zoanthropes still can't hit the broadside of a barn. Ravs still suck hard.

In other words all its done is make fexes an automatic 3 in heavy support, warriors are expensive and can't even get their save increased anymore plus devs were nerfed so they aren't worth the points but you're forced into them because of how debilitating IB is, devilrants are more brutal than before, none of the fast attacks seem useful at all, stealers are too powerful, and gaunts with free fleshborers are too powerful (enough so that you would never want them in combat and they would tear up most things at range pretty well). And as I said you made the CC ability even worse than it is now. I know you worked hard on it, but I don't think it would be good for the army at all.



You guys have to think about the Lictor's role in relation to all the other units in the army.

A character assassin doesn't exist in the army. A backfield disruption/tactical squad-breaking hit and run attack unit already exists, it's called the Ravener. If you give the Lictor the same role, what's going to happen is one of them will be better at it, and the other will simply never be taken.


I disagree about ravs. They're more of a speedy assault unit than a hit and run. Lictors are more of the hit and run unit (they even have the hit and run rule!). Ravs are more of in conflict with leaping/flying warriors than lictors.

MasterDecoy
17-08-2009, 05:31
The problem is that if you H&R on the turn you charge it becomes the enemy's turn and they simply shoot your Lictor to death. Now if it could do that at any time, then it might become useful, although potentially too useful...jump into assault, hope you survive, fight the next round then H&R...oh, it's my turn again? Move and assault again. Although in the end it really keeps the Lictor as a one-hit wonder that is too expensive.

I dont know about you, but I think a lictor has WAY more chance of surviving being shot than in close combat.

The point of my special rule was that the lictor gets to H&R before the enemy strikes back.

itcamefromthedeep
17-08-2009, 14:19
Lets see... My opinion is that I'd probably quit nids if that was our new book.
The prices all subject to playtesting. None of that stuff ever hit the table, so I'm far from dogmatic about any of the prices. It's a draft.


It removes a lot of the stuff that I love nids for (Implant attacks, variable statlines, etc) without giving us anything that makes it seem worth it in any way.
What was so sexy about variable stat lines? Was Implant Attack really that exciting? I play them because they look cool.


Fleshhooks also lost one of their best abilities and crushing claws are useless except against enemy MCs where its overpowered to hell.I've seen the wall-climbing come up maybe a handful of times in my gaming career, so it got dropped. Crushing claws work just fine against Eternal Warrior characters and Daemons like Bloodcrushers. That and vehicles.


On the other hand, fexes are better at shooting because they have tank hunters (auto-12 min armour pen for VCs even if you removed their ability to pen open topped) but they've lost their ability to deal with nob bikers due to the unwarranted BS nerf.
Have you see nthe 4th ed Barbed Strangler? The nerf is warranted. Looking at it again, the Venom Cannon in that list is underpriced. It should probably sit around 40 for the Carnifex.


You've also boosted the cost of death spitters so much that for warriors devourers are an auto-take.
Nah, it's not as bad you think. Devourers lose the reroll to wound there, so it's a S6 template competing against 4 shots at S4 with a shorter range.


Stealers are fleeting infiltrators which means they instantly have a 1/6 chance to make a first turn charge.
I saw that. That's why they couldn't stay in Troops.


You boosted the cost of Tyrant guard and nerfed them for some odd reason when they weren't really overpowered in the first place.
Tyrant Guard are spectacular right now. You're pretty much nuts.


And shooting tyrants are just as broken as before if not moreso (150pts nets you a d00d that always hits on a 4+ with re-rolls and wounds anything in the game on a 3+ with re-rolls with both shooting and CC).What's an appropriate price for that Hive Tyrant, then? Should that increase be applied to the base cost of the model, to the Devourers, to the Toxin Sacs, or some combination if the three?


Ravs still suck hard.
Yeah, they need to drop by maybe 10 points there. How's that?


And as I said you made the CC ability even worse than it is now. I know you worked hard on it, but I don't think it would be good for the army at all.I don't know what you're on about with close combat nerf. Genestealers got better as you noted, Hormagaunts are half the price, Warriors and Gargoyles both got access to power weapons, and Tyrants are still amazing in close combat.

It was a couple hours' work, and most of that was in the formatting. It wasn't exactly a Herculean undertaking. I considered the points values to be the least important part of that document, because it didn't have any playtesting work behind it. At all. I found that as soon as I tweaked a unit a bit, that suddenly I had no idea what should cost. If you think something's overpriced or useless, feel free to let me know. I'm more than happy to take a second look at any of it. What I'm more interested in, though, is what people think of the changes to weapons and stat lines in principle. Nearly anything can be effective at the right price.

The idea for the document in the first place was to "leak" it with the implication that it was a GW playtest document as a practical joke. It got as much effort as a practical joke deserves. I posted it on Scribd and a buddy put it up on 4-Chan and we watched it go. It worked like a charm. As I recall it was Orbital who brought it to the news/rumor forum here. It made it pretty much everywhere except Bell of Lost Souls. The moral of the story: don't trust everything you read on the intertubes. Anyway, to make it more "believable" I was pretty conservative with the points values ('cause most people don't play with Tyranids). So relax, it was never billed as a final draft.

gorgon
17-08-2009, 15:23
Correction : Leap is still a huge deal, especially when combined with Fleet.

:eyebrows:

Sorry, the 12" assault range isn't what I was referencing. They've had that since the 3rd edition rulebook list. Maybe I wasn't spelling it out clearly enough.

In 3rd edition CC, the only models that received their full allotment of attacks (and the use of any special CC weapon rules) were the models in base-to-base contact. All models within 2" only received a single attack at their base S. Unless you had Leap, that is.

So let's say you have a unit of 20 Shoota Boyz dump out of a Battlewagon into CC. Ten get in base-to-base, and 10 are within 2". The unit (in 3rd edition) would have 30 attacks from the 10 in b2b, and 10 additional attacks from the supporting models, for a total of 40 attacks.

Hormagaunts in the number and same setup would have generated *60* attacks, a 50% increase over the Boyz. That's part of why Hormagaunts were priced at 10 points. What's happened is that CC rules have changed significantly, and Hormagaunts' points value haven't, even though they've lost ground against the rest of the field.

Hope that's a little clearer.


Why does 'Nid army have to be good at every facet of the game? It excels at killing infantry in CC, it's shooting is okay....it is subpar at killing tanks at range....why does this weakness not need to be there? So that people can say our codex is broken?

The simple answer is because the metagame has changed. Fifth edition features vehicles and mech armies to a far greater degree than before. An army that has a hard time dealing with even a moderate number of tanks and transports -- and non-Nidzilla armies do -- is really fighting an uphill battle in the current edition.

Players go over the top in their wishlists, without a doubt. But do Tyranids need some selected antitank boosts, especially if Nidzilla goes extinct and the new codex pushes traditional swarms (which I'd welcome)? Yes, absolutely.

genestealer_baldric
17-08-2009, 16:13
give a lictor a 4+ dodge save in CC before wounds are rolled to signify fast movment and its chamelon properties ?

PhalanxLord
17-08-2009, 19:33
The prices all subject to playtesting. None of that stuff ever hit the table, so I'm far from dogmatic about any of the prices. It's a draft.


Its more than unit prices that I have problems with. Its pretty much the design concepts you used that I hate.



What was so sexy about variable stat lines? Was Implant Attack really that exciting? I play them because they look cool.

I found variable stat lines sexy because they were unique and it was quite fun pretty much "designing" your own nid and leaving out the stuff you didn't need while taking what you wanted. Its the same thing as buying a model in pieces rather than buying a completed one-> its funner like that. As for implant attack, it was something unique that we had and no one else did. It was also incredibly useful as it would allow out tyrants to instant kill nobs, deffcoptas, and bloodcrushers and 2 hit kill things like Ogryns, DPs, and pretty much every character around. For those of us who like our CC tyrants its a godsend, and removing it takes away one of the main reason to use them.



I've seen the wall-climbing come up maybe a handful of times in my gaming career, so it got dropped. Crushing claws work just fine against Eternal Warrior characters and Daemons like Bloodcrushers. That and vehicles.


I've found the wall climbing ability useful quite a few times. You can use it to do things like use a fex to assault enemies on top of a wall that you normally can't climb with one for example.

As for Crushing claws I had meant that they were overpowered against multi-wound models. Against vehicles anything that you would deal with in CC with a fex is pretty much auto-penned anyways by the 9+2d6 pen. So its overpowered against models with wounds and worthless against vehicles because it adds nothing. But also, with fex's crappy weapon skill it means all a fex is good for is taking out multiwound things and hoping they don't kill you first. And hoping you can hit them. Right now you can sorta mitigate things such as BC attacks by being T7 and having effective WS5 so they hit on a 4+ and wound you on 6's. You removed that making fexes quite a bit worse at taking them out because they now hit you on a 3+ and wound you on a 5+. They now have a pretty damn good chance at killing your fex before it can attack, especially without the extra wound you can give it right now. But the fex could instant kill BCs now anyways due to implant attack, but making CC do 1+d6 wounds means that you kill a DP or GD on a 3+ if you wound it once, or you kill it if you wound it twice.



Have you see nthe 4th ed Barbed Strangler? The nerf is warranted. Looking at it again, the Venom Cannon in that list is underpriced. It should probably sit around 40 for the Carnifex.

I use 4th ed BS a lot-> if I'm not using my fun 3x heavy fexes that I enjoy using (and that your dex would make not nearly as enjoyable or good) I generally take 2x sniperfexes. The BS shots are generally wasted on tanks that I have to try to glance because otherwise they'll nuke large portions of my forces. I've also used them to great effect on plague marines, a unit that is normally quite hard to hurt with shooting. I would have to say that they are well priced and useful, but not overly powerful as most of the time they don't do anything to the vehicles I'm shooting at. They're no battlecannons, and a sniperfex costs as much as a Russ anyways (or more than a Russ generally).

As for the VC its well priced at 20pts. At 40pts that's getting to be too much even if it could pen considering you've already payed the points for scy-tals. But you want us to pay essentially 50pts for what we get now for 30pts? Its not even a good gun! The only reason people use it is because there's not really much of a choice in the matter. If you don't take it you get smashed by enemy guns that you have pretty much no chance of taking care of.



Nah, it's not as bad you think. Devourers lose the reroll to wound there, so it's a S6 template competing against 4 shots at S4 with a shorter range.

You sure about that? I'd much rather pay 5pts for 4 s4 shots than 15pts for a s6 blast. Its not even something thats so overpowered that it needs a point increase. Plus you can make up for the lack of re-rolls with toxin sacs so then you have devs like now that will wound wraithlords on a 4+.



I saw that. That's why they couldn't stay in Troops.

And now we have to choose between them and warriors. Considering how you make synapse 10x more important because the army goes to crap without it its become "shall I take these extremely expensive but easily killed warriors that I require in order to actually control my army (and seem overcosted anyways) or a CC unit that, while not nearly as good as before (as FT and scuttlers seem to be the only reasons stealers are worth it now), can get a first turn charge?"



Tyrant Guard are spectacular right now. You're pretty much nuts.

22.5pts per extra wound. I've never seen a t-guard kill anything. They're good, but they're hardly broken and they still die quite easily to things such as battlecannons and krak missiles. My opponents have never had much trouble taking them out. They're also pretty much required for a walkrant because they're too vulnerable otherwise. Too much of a high priority target.



What's an appropriate price for that Hive Tyrant, then? Should that increase be applied to the base cost of the model, to the Devourers, to the Toxin Sacs, or some combination if the three?

Who knows? All I know is that having a model that can on average deal 3.55 wounds to a GD per round of shooting is rather unbalanced at that cost. Its one of those things that there isn't really a good cost for. Its either overpowered or overcosted. I doubt there's a line where its perfectly balanced.



Yeah, they need to drop by maybe 10 points there. How's that?

Much better.



I don't know what you're on about with close combat nerf. Genestealers got better as you noted, Hormagaunts are half the price, Warriors and Gargoyles both got access to power weapons, and Tyrants are still amazing in close combat.

Its pretty much the way you did things. Fexes are now worthless for CC. Horms are good.Tyrants you want shooty because as I said their devs are quite powerful, especially against other MCs and you hit close combat flyrants with a nerfbat. In fact I'd debate whether flyrants are even that useful anymore in it considering they've either lost an attack or half their shots at the same price for wings. Not to mention all the models you've just made worthless. On the other hand they've now got poisoned attacks on a 3+ (hey, enemy MC! I deal an average of 8/9 wounds per hit now!) but they've lost their +WS abilities which were very useful and they have to pay a $%^&-ton of points for assault grenades which most armies seem to get for free now. Really, with they way you did tyrants for the most part the only real way to bother taking them is 2x devs with poison and walking because you've removed the best parts of their CC capabilities (their superb character hunting abilities, their anti-nob, etc) and devs are still quite good.

As for CC warriors its one PW attack. They still pay out the nose for any kind of extra movement and their save is so low that they die if you glare at them too hard. They also lost the ability to have +I except for Furious Charge (which is very expensive) and they lost their +WS ability. And they cost more. I'd say they're worse than now-> you've nerfed them. And once again, 5pts gets you devs. Another 30pts gives the entire unit poison. With shooting like that there's no reason why you'd ever want to get into combat.

Horms aren't too bad at those points, but gargs are overpowered. Lets take 30 of them and give them power weapons. Add Furious Charge. 270pts+80pts+90pts=440pts, but with 30 PW attacks at S4 and I5 its going to kill anything out there on the charge before it could strike back. Sure its 15pts per model, but still. Not much can survive 60 s4 I5 attacks and 30 s4 I5 PW attacks. But then again with leaping and flight so overcosted synapse will lag and you'll lose control of the gargs/horms. Then the enemy can place small sacrificial units in the way and you'll have to eat those instead of the units you want to kill. And if you don't want to have them outrun your synapse then the extra movement speed is wasted.



It was a couple hours' work, and most of that was in the formatting. It wasn't exactly a Herculean undertaking. I considered the points values to be the least important part of that document, because it didn't have any playtesting work behind it. At all. I found that as soon as I tweaked a unit a bit, that suddenly I had no idea what should cost. If you think something's overpriced or useless, feel free to let me know. I'm more than happy to take a second look at any of it. What I'm more interested in, though, is what people think of the changes to weapons and stat lines in principle. Nearly anything can be effective at the right price.

Personally I think points costs are very important, but there's more too it than that. More so than anything else, it feels like you gutted the flavour out of the army. You took most of the stuff that was fun in the army and removed in in the name of "I don't use it so no one does" and "oversimplification". Giving things the right price doesn't make an army interesting or fun.



The idea for the document in the first place was to "leak" it with the implication that it was a GW playtest document as a practical joke. It got as much effort as a practical joke deserves. I posted it on Scribd and a buddy put it up on 4-Chan and we watched it go. It worked like a charm. As I recall it was Orbital who brought it to the news/rumor forum here. It made it pretty much everywhere except Bell of Lost Souls. The moral of the story: don't trust everything you read on the intertubes. Anyway, to make it more "believable" I was pretty conservative with the points values ('cause most people don't play with Tyranids). So relax, it was never billed as a final draft.

Personally I consider that to be a very dick move. Probably one of the biggest you can do. I say keep the practical joke story and let the crappy list go to rest in the recycling bin. It doesn't have much of a place anywhere else.

itcamefromthedeep
17-08-2009, 21:06
Its more than unit prices that I have problems with. Its pretty much the design concepts you used that I hate.
The concepts were, first of all, don't touch the base statline, to limit what the opponents have to memorize about the army.

The second big idea was a little bit of "if you can't see it, it goes away". Upgrades like Implant Attack are great opportunity for a "surprise" moment, where you forget to inform your opponent about it until after he fails a save. That's not cool.

Finally, and in a similar vein, if it's easy to forget, it should either disappear or be replaced by something that's easier to see or remember on the table.


I found variable stat lines sexy because they were unique and it was quite fun pretty much "designing" your own nid and leaving out the stuff you didn't need while taking what you wanted. Its the same thing as buying a model in pieces rather than buying a completed one-> its funner like that.You already choose armament. The difference is that you customize the unit's special rules rather than the stat line. It's not as far off as you make it out to be, and less of a headache to learn this way.


As for implant attack, it was something unique that we had and no one else did.
If it's Implant Attack that you liked, did you ever put it on Genestealers? No, I don't think you did, because you take it to win, not because it's cool. As for uniqueness, I haven't heard you jumping for joy over Psychic Scream or Crushing Claws, both relatively unseen mechanics (and Claws are a lot like Implant Attack, there, buddy). You say that you like unique rules, and then bash the new unique rules you see. Something's up, there. Maybe you should to re-evaluate exactly what you think flavor means.

Flavor is stuff like giving the big tank-hunting beastie (Carnifex) Tank Hunters, to reinforce that it's there to kill tanks. Flavor is making sure that the army that should be using biological weapons left, right, and centre has lots of options for Poisoned Attacks. Flavor is getting the units to do what the background says they should do.


As for Crushing claws I had meant that they were overpowered against multi-wound models. Against vehicles anything that you would deal with in CC with a fex is pretty much auto-penned anyways by the 9+2d6 pen.That's like saying that melta bombs are overpowered against vehicles: that's exactly what they're there for. The Crushing Claws are +1 on the damage chart by the way, as in a 4 means "wrecked". Are they good against MCs? Absolutely. Is that a problem? Absolutely not. The Claws have to do something, and that something is help to kill hard targets like MCs and vehicles in close combat, 'cause crushing claws crush things. You see the general leaning for the Carnifex then? Good for killing vehicles and monsters, bad for killing infantry?


You sure about that?
No, I want to see it on the table. If it turns out you're right, then the price can go down.


And now we have to choose between them and warriors.Warriors tend to get their saves from cover, either terrain or Gaunts. I don't have a problem with that. T4 to T5 ain't nuthin' against small arms fire either. Deathspitter aside, Warriors aren't bad.


22.5pts per extra wound. I've never seen a t-guard kill anything.You should probably get new dice for your Tyrant Guard, then. Killing aside, Guard are great for picking up cover saves from Gaunts. Those models are not bad at 50 points.


Its pretty much the way you did things. Fexes are now worthless for CC. Horms are good.Tyrants you want shooty because as I said their devs are quite powerful, especially against other MCs and you hit close combat flyrants with a nerfbat. In fact I'd debate whether flyrants are even that useful anymore in it considering they've either lost an attack or half their shots at the same price for wings. Not to mention all the models you've just made worthless.Which models, the ones GW has produced? There's only one model for a winged Hive Tyrant out right now, and it's from Forge World. That model replaces a set of weapons with its wings. That aside, many Flyrant models made up to this point will be just fine. I've seen quite a few models that proxy one set of devs for two.


Horms aren't too bad at those points, but gargs are overpowered.Those Gargoyles are glass cannons. 440pts for a squad of T3 6+ save models had better net you something fairly spectacular. And 30 models is quite unwieldy. Most people like to keep their broods to 24 at the most, and at that range the upgrades look less attractive.

mattschuur
17-08-2009, 21:45
Alot of my ideas posted on page 2 had less to do with what i "wanted" for Nids and more to do with what i expect.

The only 2 armies with leadership(esque) bubbles were nids and guard. Guard got theirs taken away and i suspect Nids will to. It just seems to me with the new wave in leadership, more stubborn, reroll's and auto-passing/failing that nids are going to follow the same way. Auto-fearless for synapse creatures makes sense to me looking at the current trends. Whose to say Zoey or even warriors will be synapse next book? My idea wouldn't truly hurt nids if synapse died as they would act normally, no rule forcing Leadership tests to do anything. They just lose fearless and act normal.

As far as the broodlord gaining fleet, its fine if they don't allow him to infiltrate. Most likely he'll only have outflank, which is still good but it doesn't make his squad all that much better than a normal genestealer squad, no 1st turn assaults.

I think Warriors with T5, 2 wounds, 4+ armor and talons/devourers base is a good unit for 20 points each. Really all i'd change other than that is not let them take 6+ deathspitters.

As i said i think bio-morphs, the majority, are going away or being base additions to a unit. Again, the trends seem to support this idea as Guard, Marines and Orks lost all access to gear, traits, or doctrines that modified their profiles or their special rules. Again, i don't see nids being safe from this. Thats why i say each nid model will have a set weapons outfit to make it more manageble and streamlined. Not saying i agree but its what i see happening.

Also, Genestealers with power weapons for 20 points? Ha ha! Honour guard are 35 for WS, S, T, I 4 with 4 power weapons on the charge. Stealers could have 4 attacks at WS and I 6, S and T 4 with rerolls to hit for 15 points cheaper, allowed to have 6 units in your army and the ability to outflank! Yeah thats totally fair. Completely. Or to have them rend on 4+, thats not too much for 20 points. Except, oh yeah, they'd still kill the same number of Marines as they did with just power weapons but now they'd kill any and everything T5 or higher without even trying. Seriously, if Genestealers got either of these options they'd make terminators as cheap as grots by comparison.
matt schuur

PhalanxLord
18-08-2009, 03:19
The concepts were, first of all, don't touch the base statline, to limit what the opponents have to memorize about the army.

The second big idea was a little bit of "if you can't see it, it goes away". Upgrades like Implant Attack are great opportunity for a "surprise" moment, where you forget to inform your opponent about it until after he fails a save. That's not cool.


Considering 40K is an open-list enviroment, that shouldn't happen unless your opponent doesn't have a list or you choose not to take a skim over the opponent's list. If that happens to you, its your own fault.



Finally, and in a similar vein, if it's easy to forget, it should either disappear or be replaced by something that's easier to see or remember on the table.


Perhaps, but to each their own. I don't find its an easy to forget upgrade because its pretty much what makes CC flyrants useful for me. Without it I wouldn't find mine nearly so great.



You already choose armament. The difference is that you customize the unit's special rules rather than the stat line. It's not as far off as you make it out to be, and less of a headache to learn this way.

Perhaps, but we're each allowed our own opinion. Personally I love the way they've been doing nids in 3rd and 4th. I like the ability to take the stats i want. It makes things seem not as bad when you end up with lets say a WS3 fex when you can make it essentially WS5.



If it's Implant Attack that you liked, did you ever put it on Genestealers? No, I don't think you did, because you take it to win, not because it's cool. As for uniqueness, I haven't heard you jumping for joy over Psychic Scream or Crushing Claws, both relatively unseen mechanics (and Claws are a lot like Implant Attack, there, buddy). You say that you like unique rules, and then bash the new unique rules you see. Something's up, there. Maybe you should to re-evaluate exactly what you think flavor means.

Yes, we pick things to win. I like implant attack because it deals 2 wounds to enemies even if they have EW. It makes flyrants useful. I also know people who use it a lot on stealers. I just prefer FT because my rolling sucks ass unless I get re-rolls.

Crushing claws are overly powerful the way you did them and tyrants can't get them anyways. Thats like removing the demo cannon from a vindicator and giving it to a BS0 servitor with no armour. Sure the ability is still there, but you've just taken it away from where it was useful and put it where its not that great. As for psychic scream, it sucks. Its also not really that unique at all-> the previous version was more unique. It fits better to demoralize the opponent than use Divine Pronouncement. Overall, neither of those rules are that unique. Doing extra wounds like those Crushing Claws sorta is because its so bloody overpowered that it hasn't been done before, but the whole pinning thing has already been done while the current effect fits the whole gibbering madness aspect much better and there is no other army that has set "everyone gets a -1 ld" power IIRC.



Flavor is stuff like giving the big tank-hunting beastie (Carnifex) Tank Hunters, to reinforce that it's there to kill tanks. Flavor is making sure that the army that should be using biological weapons left, right, and centre has lots of options for Poisoned Attacks. Flavor is getting the units to do what the background says they should do.

Perhaps we have different opinions on what the flavor of nids is. The ability to improve different stats shows their ability to evolve quite well, for example. While poison does have a place, I don't believe you need to take away things like implant attack, most of the fex extras, and some other things just to add it. Besides, your army is more shooty. The background is more CC. Your stuff doesn't fit the background any better than the current stuff. In fact, looking at units like Lictors, yours is worse.



That's like saying that melta bombs are overpowered against vehicles: that's exactly what they're there for. The Crushing Claws are +1 on the damage chart by the way, as in a 4 means "wrecked". Are they good against MCs? Absolutely. Is that a problem? Absolutely not. The Claws have to do something, and that something is help to kill hard targets like MCs and vehicles in close combat, 'cause crushing claws crush things. You see the general leaning for the Carnifex then? Good for killing vehicles and monsters, bad for killing infantry?

Fexes don't need +1 on the vehicle damage charge. Tank hunters means that you get 9+2d6 armour pen around for fexes. Thats what I had said. Thats what we get now. It already fries every vehicle in existence in CC. Giving it +1 vehicle damage on top of that is overkill.

And once again. Get one of those fexes in CC with any MC and that MC is dead if it fails an inv save. 5 wound GUO? Dead on a 4+. 4 wound DP? Dead on a 3+. Besides, since when are fexes only good for killing tanks and MCs? Right now they can current do well against infantry. Which is fine. Just because it doesn't fit your vision doesn't mean it doesn't fit someone else's.



No, I want to see it on the table. If it turns out you're right, then the price can go down.

I can guarentee I'm right.



Warriors tend to get their saves from cover, either terrain or Gaunts. I don't have a problem with that. T4 to T5 ain't nuthin' against small arms fire either. Deathspitter aside, Warriors aren't bad.

They're still very expensive and cover isn't always available. Every army has plenty of weapons to ignore cover these days, be they whirlwinds, eradicator nova cannons, or a barrage weapon and gaunts aren't exactly hard to kill either, not to mention that fact that its simple to get a hight advantage and be able to shoot the warriors without the gaunts in the way. Even with EC, their saves are bad enough that they will rarely make them.



You should probably get new dice for your Tyrant Guard, then. Killing aside, Guard are great for picking up cover saves from Gaunts. Those models are not bad at 50 points.

My t-guard are nearly always dead before I reach combat. Its that simple. Also, I'm not saying they're overcosted or anything at 50pts (no more really than at 45pts or 40pts IMHO), just that the cost increase strikes me as an unnecessary nerf.



Which models, the ones GW has produced? There's only one model for a winged Hive Tyrant out right now, and it's from Forge World. That model replaces a set of weapons with its wings. That aside, many Flyrant models made up to this point will be just fine. I've seen quite a few models that proxy one set of devs for two.

Of course it wouldn't be models that GW has produced, but your rules set will probably have very little in common with what GW ends up with.

As for the point about proxying, what I mean is more along the line of devil flyrants not being worth using with those rules due to losing half their firepower and most of the reason to use those devs. Scything flyrants have just lost an attack and implant attack, one of the main driving forces behind taking them.



Those Gargoyles are glass cannons. 440pts for a squad of T3 6+ save models had better net you something fairly spectacular. And 30 models is quite unwieldy. Most people like to keep their broods to 24 at the most, and at that range the upgrades look less attractive.

Yeah, thats why I mentioned the 12pt version which are pretty much just as good. Its highly unlikely that the opponent will kill all the gargs before they get somewhere and at 360pts they aren't horrendously expensive for what they do. A glass cannon would be more like current fully upgraded horms who are less effective than those gargs and cost more, but can still get the job done.

As I said before, I don't like your list. A good part of that is probably because of the army lists I use. I use a dakka walkrant with 2 TG in every list (though they overall get better in yours), a scything flyrant with implant attack (which gets smashed to pieces with the nerfbat), some won gaunts (they cost more in your rules but overall who cares), 2 units of stealers with scuttlers and FT (overall better in your thing, but the elites choice means that I can't use the vast majority of my models in games and it makes for an annoying choice vs my next group), 2x 5 warriors with 4x DS, 1x BS, and TS (so they would cost 10pts more in your thing with the only real improvement being that they have T5-> not worth it at all), sometimes a lictor to help my stealers get in faster and support my flyrant (you made them worthless by reducing their cover and removing every rule that made them worth considering with the only bonuses being a price drop and an extra wound-> not worth it at all), and then for my heavy support I take either three CC godfexes (ST, CC, +W, +T, Tusks, +WS, TM, +I, so on and so forth) which are currently my favorite units but become far less entertaining in your dex (and far more easily killed), or 3 zoans with warp blast (cheaper by 25pts, but worthless due to being high priority instant-killable targets and free KP for anyone with a lascannon) and 2 sniperfexes (actually better against tanks but worse against infantry, but useless without synapse coverage).

So overall one of my favorite models (scything flyrant) becomes a lot worse as he can no longer adequately fulfill his character/Mc hunting role, my heavy godfexes are now only good against enemy MCs and vehicles (provided they don't die due to now being hit on a 3+ and against many MCs will only hit on a 5+) so I lose out on most of my enjoyment from them because an enemy could easily tarpit them or deal them 2-3 wounds and reliably have what I'm trying to kill finish it off before I can attack, once again my zoans are useless (those d00ds were fun too...), my lictor is useless (no longer fulfills his role and fails at any other), and most of my stealers will now get left home (only two tyrants isn't enough synapse and zoans are worthless so 2 units of warriors are must haves as anything without synapse is useless). So pretty much I have good reason to hate your list. I play rather fun lists-> not overly competitive. But your rules nerf my list into the ground so hard its not funny and many of the changes make some of my favorite units appear rather unappealing by removing everything of interest.

As I said, if your rules are what happened to nids I'd quit. Most of my models would no longer be as enjoyable to use and it would kill my enjoyment of making lists because of its oversimplification. It doesn't really matter how much you adjust the costs for me because I just find it boring as hell. The only thing that really catches my eye are hormagaunts because I love the idea of them with furious charge, but they would outrun anything without wings and your wings are overcosted due to their removal of slots (well, I guess they'd be overcosted either way for warriors).

Either way I think this is all I have to say on this. I don't like the list and I have good reasons for not liking it whether you care for them or not and I'm sure many would agree with me. I don't think nids need the crazy overhaul changing everything in the book that people seem to think we need.

Egaeus
18-08-2009, 05:29
Either way I think this is all I have to say on this. I don't like the list and I have good reasons for not liking it whether you care for them or not and I'm sure many would agree with me. I don't think nids need the crazy overhaul changing everything in the book that people seem to think we need.

They probably don't need it, but for me I like to look it as an opportunity to flex some creative muscle and see what kind of things could be done. There's so much potential there and I will probably most likely end up disappointed with whatever GW brings out.

Obviously everyone is going to have different ideas about how to fix things, most likely coloured by their gaming experiences with and against the army. Heck, just go through the thread and compile all the suggestions about the Lictor that have been made...

To me, at this stage it's mostly about "wouldn't it be cool if they did this..." rather than actually expecting it to be the case.

JDM-32
18-08-2009, 05:47
i think what needs fixing the most is synapse causing fearless causing no retreat wounds and i think that some stats need to be improved,better armour saves,and points costs decreased.

PhalanxLord
18-08-2009, 05:57
Ideas are cool and stuff, but I just hate oversimplification and I hate the idea of my entire nid force getting nerfed, especially when I didn't take an overpowered army or anything.

If you want to see the kind of list I like, take a look at Eidre's most recent list on Warp Shadow. Its plenty complex and interesting though some of the point values here and there are a bit low (mostly for power weapons). But its very interesting and you could easily spend hours looking over it designing different armies and different configurations, which is one of the things I love about some of the older codexes like Chaos 3.5 and the 3rd ed nid book.

squeekenator
18-08-2009, 08:54
Also, Genestealers with power weapons for 20 points? Ha ha! Honour guard are 35 for WS, S, T, I 4 with 4 power weapons on the charge. Stealers could have 4 attacks at WS and I 6, S and T 4 with rerolls to hit for 15 points cheaper, allowed to have 6 units in your army and the ability to outflank!

That's a really bad example. Honour Guard may be 15pts more expensive, but they also have ARTIFICER ARMOUR (making them 6 times as durable against most shooting), bolters, an extra attack thanks to their pistols, ATSKNF and Combat Tactics rather than the chance to get Fearless (which is worse), frag grenades and rather cheap access to the Chapter Banner, giving them all another attack, providing a morale bubble and giving them more combat resolution. Getting Feeder Tendrils and Scuttlers makes the Genestealers only 11pts cheaper, and it's obvious that they're overpowered thanks to the edition change and will be increased in cost or removed entirely in the next codex. And on top of all that, no-one takes Honour Guard because they're underpowered. Genestealers need a massive power boost, because right now they suck.

Here's a fun comparison: current Genestealers to Slugga Boyz. 'Stealers have higher WS and I, which is pretty damn good, and rending, which is sorta alright. On the other hand, Slugga Boyz have an extra attack, furious charge (which gives them the same strength on the charge, worse in consequent rounds but nothing survives a Slugga charge anyway), WAAAGH!, which, thanks to 5th, is just as good as fleet except for the inconsequential drawback when you roll a 1, and pistols. And yet somehow Genestealers are almost triple the cost. They have the exact same durability against most weapons, and are only barely better at killing most troops (yes, really), and yet they cost three times as much. Yes, Slugga Boyz are probably undercosted, but 'Stealers are still hugely overpriced.

So basically, there are two options for Genestealers. Either reduce their cost and make them slower Hormagaunts, or make them the super-awesome and fearsome combatants they're meant to be. I'd go for option 2. Power weapons are perfectly justified. Heck, I'd throw in the Wyches' dodge save too, and maybe another attack. Genestealers are complete crap right now, and the only reason they're vaguely competitive is that Scuttlers and Feeder Tendrils are insanely underpriced and most players haven't started using enough flamers yet.

Atherakhia
18-08-2009, 09:11
Right, well, I'm all happy with a ground based Tyrant having a retinue of Tyrant Guard, but what about a Winged Tyrant? How's about having a retinue of Winged Warriors?
Now THAT would be useful....

gorgon
18-08-2009, 15:02
Flavor is making sure that the army that should be using biological weapons left, right, and centre has lots of options for Poisoned Attacks. Flavor is getting the units to do what the background says they should do.

I like that you weren't afraid to break eggs. However, I think your poison example is a particularly bad one. IIRC, as you had it decent-sized units of Hormagaunts would have been amazing MC-killers...ripping down Bloodthirsters, Nightbringer, etc. It was completely broken, and ended up making the Hormagaunts something very different than what the background says they are. Poison might have a role in the army -- I like that thinking -- but not on units with large numbers of attacks.

Now, I do agree that some wishlists here involve overly complex rules and things that don't really address the actual issues within the Tyranid list. It will certainly be interesting to see what the real thing will bring. I don't remember hearing Robin Cruddace mentioned as a Tyranid player, and that makes me a little nervous. Most non-Tyranid players don't really "get" horde Tyranids. And even many Nidzilla players don't really get horde Tyranids.

If they have any goal of making horde, mostly CC-focused Tyranids viable again, I really think it's going to be tricky in the current metagame. If they pull it off, it'll be a metagame changer, because right now everyone seems to be bringing every melta they can to pop transports. Like I said, it'll certainly be interesting.

Remember, if it's a February release, the army list is likely finished already.

FoolsJourney
18-08-2009, 16:08
How about each hormagaunt NOT in base to base with an opponent can sacrifice all its attacks to add +1 strength to the front row attacks? Or something similar? Maybe some form of single impact hit from the force of the swarm which rises in strength the number of hormies in the brood when it hits?

JDM-32
18-08-2009, 16:18
the main problem atm is synapse causing the no retreat wounds.in a unit of 8 gaunts they will be completely wiped out in combat because of no retreat and they are so weak that by the time they get into combat they would have lost half the unit already by shooting.this applies to hormagaunts also

genestealer_baldric
18-08-2009, 16:33
How about each hormagaunt NOT in base to base with an opponent can sacrifice all its attacks to add +1 strength to the front row attacks? Or something similar? Maybe some form of single impact hit from the force of the swarm which rises in strength the number of hormies in the brood when it hits?

That would be amazingly broken :eek:

if you only get 15 out of 30 into combat due to terrain and models all the front hormagaunts get +2 str :eek:

or at worst 2 in combat and 30 behind they get +15 str each :cheese:

Grand Master Raziel
18-08-2009, 17:17
And on top of all that, no-one takes Honour Guard because they're underpowered. Genestealers need a massive power boost, because right now they suck.

Actually, I think no one takes Honor Guard because you have to take a Chapter Master to get them, and the only advantage the CM has over the 30pts-cheaper Captain is that mostly-useless orbital strike. So, people don't take CMs, so they can't take Honor Guard. Besides, for what Honor Guard do, you can take Terminators instead. That said, even if you do see Honor Guard, you're only likely to see 1 squad of them at most, because they're an HQ choice, and as I said require taking a CM to get access to.


So basically, there are two options for Genestealers. Either reduce their cost and make them slower Hormagaunts, or make them the super-awesome and fearsome combatants they're meant to be. I'd go for option 2. Power weapons are perfectly justified. Heck, I'd throw in the Wyches' dodge save too, and maybe another attack. Genestealers are complete crap right now, and the only reason they're vaguely competitive is that Scuttlers and Feeder Tendrils are insanely underpriced and most players haven't started using enough flamers yet.

Oh, hell no! Genestealers should not get power weapons! Not while remaining a Troops choice, anyway. Make them an Elites choice and give them a largeish upward bump in price, and maybe. I could see downpricing Genestealers a tad and giving them an extra attack, but Scuttlers has to go, or be reworded so it doesn't grant the ability to outflank, or be collossally up-costed.

Going back to your Stealers vs Orks comparison, I ran the numbers through my head for a couple rounds of close combat, and it's a pretty near thing. Assuming 10 Stealers with flesh hooks and feeder tendrils vs 30 non-upgraded Orks, if the Stealers get to charge, after 2 rounds of close combat you're likely to have about 7 Orks left vs 1 Stealer. However, the Orks lose both rounds of close combat, so there's a pretty good chance the Orks mighht break and get wiped out by that last Stealer. So, that's a fairly even matchup, especially assuming the Orks are at least a little undercosted. However, I'd argue that it's reasonable to expect similar performance to Khorne Berserkers, who in the same matchup wipe out the Orks and still have a reasonably functional squad if they manage to be the ones charging. An extra attack on the profile (making scything talons standard, say) would accomplish that.

OanMkoll
18-08-2009, 18:48
Don't forget all of the units that Genestealers would wipe out, namely ANYTHING that isn't a 30-strong mob of boyz! Why don't we compare units that get PW's as standard, such as Banshees. They're (supposed to be) the ultimate SM-killer/elite troops killer. Stealers get more attacks at higher initiative at higher strength and weapon skill for a few points more. The balancing out part of the banshees was low Str, but the Genestealers would have no balance!! They would be way too broken.

Bolter Bait
18-08-2009, 20:07
Don't forget all of the units that Genestealers would wipe out, namely ANYTHING that isn't a 30-strong mob of boyz! Why don't we compare units that get PW's as standard, such as Banshees. They're (supposed to be) the ultimate SM-killer/elite troops killer. Stealers get more attacks at higher initiative at higher strength and weapon skill for a few points more. The balancing out part of the banshees was low Str, but Genestealers have no balance!! They would be way too broken.Not that I'm for Genestealers having power weapons, but if you're going to compare units that don't belong to the same army, Banshees' have a lower Strength but come with a better save, special rules that let them effectively go first, with an upgrade character option to grant them even more special rules and hits harder than a stock Banshee, and finally they come with a fast skimmer tank for a transport option.

There is no comparing them.

Egaeus
18-08-2009, 23:07
Ideas are cool and stuff, but I just hate oversimplification and I hate the idea of my entire nid force getting nerfed, especially when I didn't take an overpowered army or anything.

Unfotunately, "simplification" seems to be the current design trend for GW, which gives me trepidation as well. I wouldn't be surprised at all to have the codex come out with a single unmodifiable statline for most units. Still, with appropriate unit price tweaks and fixing some of the more glaring issues will still make them a playable army. They will just lose some of their uniqueness.


the main problem atm is synapse causing the no retreat wounds.in a unit of 8 gaunts they will be completely wiped out in combat because of no retreat and they are so weak that by the time they get into combat they would have lost half the unit already by shooting.this applies to hormagaunts also

This is a simple fix. I've suggested a few fixes in this thread already. If No Retreat wounds are the problem, just create a speical rule that makes them immune to it. I also expect these units to get a bit cheaper as well, so you should be able to stand to lose some on the way in (which is how it should be).


Don't forget all of the units that Genestealers would wipe out, namely ANYTHING that isn't a 30-strong mob of boyz! Why don't we compare units that get PW's as standard, such as Banshees. They're (supposed to be) the ultimate SM-killer/elite troops killer. Stealers get more attacks at higher initiative at higher strength and weapon skill for a few points more. The balancing out part of the banshees was low Str, but the Genestealers would have no balance!! They would be way too broken.

IIRC the original BBB 'Nid list had 'Stealers at 22 points with power weapons. This was determined to be too powerful at the time, so they ended up with Rending instead. Of course back then there weren't any upgrades to 'Stealers at all...no Talons, no Feeder Tendrils, no Toxin Sacs. But at the same time you had basic 6 and 7 point Gaunts that completely blocked LOS to 'Stealers, and the 'Stealers blocked LOS to the Warriros behind them, so you had your huge block of fearless troops march across the board, with the non-Gaunts arriving generally unmolested.

Just to point out that 'Stealers are supposed to be a match for Terminators...one of the big problems is that they are currently a Troop slot, when they would probably be better represented as Elites, but that throws the 'Nid FOC out of whack with Warriors being Elites as well and necessary for Synapse. One of the reasons I like the idea of making Gaunt Broods more akin to Guard Platoons in allowing the Warriors to be purchased along with the Gaunts as a Troops choice. The problem then is you significantly limit the number of 'Stealers an army can have.

Although at this point I really don't see GW giving them Power Weapons, just suggesting that if they did it would have to come with some other significant changes to the 'Nid list.

squeekenator
18-08-2009, 23:18
Going back to your Stealers vs Orks comparison, I ran the numbers through my head for a couple rounds of close combat, and it's a pretty near thing. Assuming 10 Stealers with flesh hooks and feeder tendrils vs 30 non-upgraded Orks,

Well, there's your problem. Genestealer feeder tendrils are overpowered. They're probably the single most overpowered upgrade in the entire game. There is no way they're going to be kept (at that price, at least) in the next codex (and, as you pointed out, the same applies to scuttlers), so why bother taking them into account? And if you don't have feeder tendrils, the Genestealers take down 6-7 Sluggaz before dying horribly.

OanMkoll: Actually, on top of what Bolter Bait pointed out, Genestealers don't have more attacks than Banshees. You're comparing apples and oranges, even if both fruits do (or should) have power weapons.

Lord Humongous
18-08-2009, 23:36
Well, there's your problem. Genestealer feeder tendrils are overpowered. They're probably the single most overpowered upgrade in the entire game.

No, that honor would go to the Black Templar Emperor's Champion and his "Accept Any Challenge..." vow. Imagine if buying your Hive Tyrant feeder tendrils gave "preferred enemy" to the entire tyranid army, regardless of size or positioning of any models, even after the tyrant was dead. Yeah...

OanMkoll
19-08-2009, 00:11
Not that I'm for Genestealers having power weapons, but if you're going to compare units that don't belong to the same army, Banshees' have a lower Strength but come with a better save, special rules that let them effectively go first, with an upgrade character option to grant them even more special rules and hits harder than a stock Banshee, and finally they come with a fast skimmer tank for a transport option.

There is no comparing them.

Bull. They have the same save btw. They are from different armies, but that doesn't mean that they aren't comparable. Banshees get to use farseers to reroll wounds, but they still only kill around 5-7 SM on the charge (with ten Banshees) instead of an AVERAGE of 15 Marines models on the charge. They would even kill Berzerkers, and on the charge they would kill 10 before the 'Zerkers got a chance to strike back!!!!!!!!!!! Besides, how can we judge the effectiveness of a unit otherwise? Would you like me to compare genestealers to other 'Nids? You're supposed to compare similar units that are made for the same purpose, and Banshees are the only elite-killer with power weapons as standard.

Max Jet
19-08-2009, 00:21
That would be amazingly broken :eek:

if you only get 15 out of 30 into combat due to terrain and models all the front hormagaunts get +2 str :eek:

or at worst 2 in combat and 30 behind they get +15 str each :cheese:

He means only hormagaunts actually able to attack, but not in base to base contact. With 30 Hormagaunts and 15 in Base to Base, that would mean +1 strength to each Hormagaunt with half the attacks.
So instead of 90 CC attacks with S3 you are looking at 45 with S4

It is furthermore impossible to have 2 in Base to base and 30 in CC range.

Captain Micha
19-08-2009, 00:23
No, that honor would go to the Black Templar Emperor's Champion and his "Accept Any Challenge..." vow. Imagine if buying your Hive Tyrant feeder tendrils gave "preferred enemy" to the entire tyranid army, regardless of size or positioning of any models, even after the tyrant was dead. Yeah...

I put my vote towards Fortune actually. Or those stupid 3+ invuln storm shields which have single handedly removed Lightning Claw termies from people's list.

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 00:32
I like that you weren't afraid to break eggs.
Thanks. MCs certainly would take the plentiful Poison to the face. Remember, though, that those MCs have a lot of difficulty with Klaw-Nobz as well, but somehow they've managed to live through the last Ork codex. How would a Tyranid list without MCs handle enemy MCs? Genestealers exist, but that's about the only unit there that can do the job right now. Gaunts should be able to do more than simply fail.


Well, there's your problem. Genestealer feeder tendrils are overpowered. They're probably the single most overpowered upgrade in the entire game.
There are contenders. Klaws on the Nob of a Boyz mob. Warbikes for Nob mobs. Lash of Submission. Changeling (the price on that is a WHAT now?).

---

With the arguable success of Leman Russ squadrons, we may be in for broods of 1-3 Carnifexes. That would replace Shock Troops. It would, of course, have to be handled with extreme caution, but I think it could work (DANGER Will Robinson, DANGER). If there were a cringe emoticon, I would use it there.

---

Worth repeating:

Remember, if it's a February release, the army list is likely finished already.

Captain Micha
19-08-2009, 00:34
I don't think Russ squadrons are a success (if anything most of us guard players see Liability when we think of Russ+squadron).

And MCs in a cluster would be...bad... for the reasons that Elite Fexes are bad now. But worse, as at least Elite Fexes aren't the Super Death by Shooting Fexes the Hs fexes tend to be.

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 01:14
I don't think Russ squadrons are a success (if anything most of us guard players see Liability when we think of Russ+squadron).

And MCs in a cluster would be...bad... for the reasons that Elite Fexes are bad now. But worse, as at least Elite Fexes aren't the Super Death by Shooting Fexes the Hs fexes tend to be.

Well, the Russ Squadron didn't turn out to be broken, which successfully allowed Guard to bring large numbers of tanks without their opponents' crying bloody murder. That's a success.

Shock Troops leaves room for Shooty 'fexes. The Devilfex and Boomfex both fit into that category. You must admit that those models can shoot well...

I think the big impact will be in close combat. Brooding them up will allow them to fight Boyz Mobs and Tac Squads with a Fist.

Captain Micha
19-08-2009, 01:19
Oh I don't deny that the Elite SHooter fexes aren't nasty. They are. But they aren't as nasty still as their HS versions just because you don't get the points to work with on them.

MCs in mass numbers *shudder* a squad of them? I don't think it would work, as it is when Mcs decide to gang something, that something usually dies a horrible painful death I couldn't imagine that, with making them a squad and thus capable of abusing WA rules.

I think what they should do, is just fix the damn warriors(give them (4+ save by default, and upgradable to 3+), lictors and throw in a third Elite and drop the Elite Fex. Three fexes should be enough to get the job done.

Maybe make a weaker Mc for the Elite slot so you can still do the "god zilla" list but not quite as bad. (and if the other units in your army are actually you know.. good instead of absolutely terrible I think it would work out very nicely)

Now that being said. All of my Fexes would have Fleet or at least the assault built ones would so that they could actually make combat and actually do something once they get there. I'd probably also throw in Regeneration for "free" on all Fexes. The Fex wouldn't be some Run of the Mill unit. I'd make it so that you only need three, and you'd not dare seriously think that you'd need more. They'd cost alot but they'd be undoubtedly worth it.

All Gaunts regardless of what kind they are would have Without Number for free. They would probably also recieve a point cost drop or slight boost.. I'm leaning more on the former than the latter since they are supposed to be there just to expend their enemies ammo after all.

Synapse would not grant you Instant Death Immunity. Really someone can argue that the bugger is driven onwards by the hive mind all they want, but when you get shot with a Meltagun, you're a pile of Dust. Being driven onwards isn't really going to change that. To be fair, I would most likely ditch the Lurking rule as well.

Gargoyles... they would one get plastic minis and two a points drop, if not a points drop they too would get Without Number.

Spore Mines would not give up KP, or if they did I'd make them kinda like Marbos or Demolition Vets. The damage that they do would actually be worth using them over. This would also help fix the Biovore.

Lictors, would probably get more attacks and or possibly the Always strike first rule.

I'd bring in the Trygon as an Hq. It would also allow Ravenors to be taken as Troops.

Ravenors would probably get a save boost. (since my biggest beef with them is how easy they die)

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 02:24
MCs in mass numbers *shudder* a squad of them? I don't think it would work, as it is when Mcs decide to gang something, that something usually dies a horrible painful death I couldn't imagine that, with making them a squad and thus capable of abusing WA rules.
I think with the constant drumbeat on Nob Bikerz GW wouldd be able to spot crazy talk like that. Wait, I shouldn't give them too much credit.

By God in Heaven they'd have to be armed identically. That's how the Hive Mind rolls. Copy+Paste dino-lobsters.

Captain Micha
19-08-2009, 02:31
You know and I know though, that it wouldn't happen that way :p.

Does anyone like my wishlist at all? thoughts?

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 02:43
You go calling me crazy for bringing up Carnifex broods and then turn around and want to call them Fleet. I seem to recall something about pots and kettles.

Without Number on all the Gaunts is sketchy. I'll say sketchy. Appearing at the back of the army really limits the usefulness of the ability for actually killing things. The utility exists mainly in objective games, and in those games it's simply lame.

Spore Mines that hit like Battle Cannons rubs me the wrong way. It makes it very difficult to price Biovores. Drop the KPs for Spore Mines. Bring the abilities of each brand of Mine closer. Those coupled with a 10pt shave off the Biovore and the unit's golden.

Captain Micha
19-08-2009, 02:47
The problem with Fex broods is the WA shenanigans that will inevitably happen (as everyone can abuse it currently just no one does it as good as the Orks).

Fleet wouldn't be too good, on a unit that can't shoot. (since that's one of the problems with the assault fex is that it's just not fast enough and can't assault when it Runs) Maybe a reroll on Run instead, hard to say really.

I'm not sure on the Spore Mine fix myself, partly because I'm not sure how many to really give out to the nid player. The Biovore though being an overpriced **** (even without the Kp rules) presently needs a serious helping and making him a Nid Artillery piece might not be entirely out of the question. Is 10 points of a shave really worth it, considering the Fex is still in the same slot though? I'd think it needs a healthy shot in the arm even with a point drop.

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 02:59
The problem with Fex broods is the WA shenanigans that will inevitably happen (as everyone can abuse it currently just no one does it as good as the Orks).
I think you misunderstand. The 'Fex Brood unit entry would require that they be armed identically. After Nob Bikerz, that won't be a polite suggestion.

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 03:02
The Biovore though being an overpriced **** (even without the Kp rules) presently needs a serious helping and making him a Nid Artillery piece might not be entirely out of the question. Is 10 points of a shave really worth it, considering the Fex is still in the same slot though? I'd think it needs a healthy shot in the arm even with a point drop.
I play with them. I can tell you that Biovores with bio-acid mines are not nearly as bad as they're made out to be. Sometimes they pull their weight, sometimes they don't (like most units). What they need is a slight price drop and dangerous Frag/Toxin mines.

big squig
19-08-2009, 03:20
Actually, running some quick mathhammer in my head, I think what would make genestealers worth their massive cost would be if they went back to being strength 6 again.

That and fix the biomorph costs some more. Feeder Tendrils are simply under-costed right now.

Egaeus
19-08-2009, 03:39
Fleet wouldn't be too good, on a unit that can't shoot. (since that's one of the problems with the assault fex is that it's just not fast enough and can't assault when it Runs) Maybe a reroll on Run instead, hard to say really.

I'm sure I'm missing something here but isn't Fleet only good on units that can't shoot? The main purpose of Fleet (in the current ruleset) is to allow you charge after Running is it not? Although personally I have said for years that everything in the 'Nid army should have Fleet.


I'm not sure on the Spore Mine fix myself, partly because I'm not sure how many to really give out to the nid player. The Biovore though being an overpriced **** (even without the Kp rules) presently needs a serious helping and making him a Nid Artillery piece might not be entirely out of the question. Is 10 points of a shave really worth it, considering the Fex is still in the same slot though? I'd think it needs a healthy shot in the arm even with a point drop.

Personally I would like it if they wen't back to being independent units ala Lictors and Zoanthropes (and Biovores were as well)...of course that might mean a price hike depending on how effective the spore mines are. They definitely need to lose the KP for Spore Mines.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I would really like to go back to some of the rules Biovores had in 3rd edition...independent units, large blast marker for Frag Mines, Flamer Template for Bio-Acid (although I would change it to standard rules for template placement rather than the random direction), and ?? not sure what to do with Toxin...Frags are for light infantry, Bio-Acid for vehicles and power armour...I'm tempted to say Toxin for anti-heavy infantry/MCs but not really sure how to do this fairly...maybe make it a Poison 2+ that inflicts two wounds on a failed save, no AP value?

Haven't given any signifacant thought to these, just tossing out ideas.

PhalanxLord
19-08-2009, 03:43
Bull. They have the same save btw. They are from different armies, but that doesn't mean that they aren't comparable. Banshees get to use farseers to reroll wounds, but they still only kill around 5-7 SM on the charge (with ten Banshees) instead of an AVERAGE of 15 Marines models on the charge. They would even kill Berzerkers, and on the charge they would kill 10 before the 'Zerkers got a chance to strike back!!!!!!!!!!! Besides, how can we judge the effectiveness of a unit otherwise? Would you like me to compare genestealers to other 'Nids? You're supposed to compare similar units that are made for the same purpose, and Banshees are the only elite-killer with power weapons as standard.

Lets see.... If we had stealers at the same price as now with power weapons 10 would kill 30*2/3*1/2= 10 marines on the charge. At the same price 10 bloodletters would be 30*2/3*2/3=13 dead. And bloodletters have a better save and would strike with higher strength, and as shown would kill more with the same numbers. Both are troops and both have the same purpose. However stealers would probably get FT for like 4pts each. So 20pt stealers that would kill 13.33 marines. 4pts more than the bloodletters for an extra 0.333 kills. Compare that with scy-tals (4pts IIRC): 40*2/3*1/2=13 kills. Still 4 more points, same kills.

As for banshee's, they have wave serpents so they can get to the other side of the board without being shot at. They also have a better armour save (4+ rather than 5+) and strike even faster due to their masks. They can also have back up in the form of war shout or acrobatic (make the enemies WS1 or have counter-attack) and they have guns. Their boss can also have a relic blade, or +2 attacks, or a 3 shot s3 ap2 gun. Stealers need to buy flesh hooks in order to not strike last when they charge into cover, and that means they can't take feeder tendrils. Banshees don't have that problem. Add to that that stealers will probably have to pay a lot more points to outflank and I think that even at 16pts base PW stealers aren't quite as broken as you say. They're bolter bait, they'd probably be very expensive if you want to outflank, and they lose out on their best upgrades if they want to have flesh hooks (which will probably be a couple of points). Plus they don't have farseers to fortune and doom (though I'd take a flyrant over a farsser any day of the week just for pure awesome).

Personally I'm looking forward to the new nid codex. The d00d who did it did a great job on the IG book IMHO so I'm looking forward to it. From rumors on Warp Shadow there are 4 new species, including one that dwarfs the fex, and there is the return of nid special characters. I hope the red terror returns... Maybe we'll also see Taloned Horrors, Malanthropes, and Trygons.

big squig
19-08-2009, 04:31
Although personally I have said for years that everything in the 'Nid army should have Fleet.
Yes, they should. Nids are THE assault army of 40k and they're supposed to be the fastest infantry. They also have more limbs than other races too.

Dakka fexes would be a lot less appealing if combat fexs could fleet.

Splata
19-08-2009, 04:44
Trygons are a definite. We've already seen the models.

With gaunts, instead of the current Without Number, what if each turn you rolled 1D6 per squad and that is how many gaunts returned and were added to the squads current position. This is to show the uncountable mob that is a gaunt rush charging towrads you.

Now this does take a leaf out of the Necron book to an extent but it would make a unit that was both fluffy and not just a "I'll use this squad to attack with. Wait for them to kill it then have it respawn so I can capture my objectives" unit.

I don't think that squads of Fexes would necessarily become unbalanced. It would mean that they last a little longer but they are still going to retain the one massive pitfall that they have now. They are slow. Even with run/fleet they will be slow compared to a transport. Hell, they go as fast as any other trooper.
This can then be coupled with the fact they can only have one target and are most likely a bigger point investment than Nob bikers (plus no 4++FNP) and you get a slower, more costly unit, that hits like a sledgehammer but still can't kill masses of units. Is it OP, even with WA? I wouldn't think so.

lastly: stealers should have rending. To me this is what they do. They aren't really strong they just have sharp claws that sometimes find the holes as they scrabble away at your armour.
Scrabble, scrabble, scrabble, ahh juicey bit!

Gutlord Grom
19-08-2009, 04:50
Yes, they should. Nids are THE assault army of 40k and they're supposed to be the fastest infantry. They also have more limbs than other races too.

Dakka fexes would be a lot less appealing if combat fexs could fleet.

But the issue is that Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes have always been described as lumbering monsters, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be swift. It makes some sense at least for Gaunts, Genestealers, and Warriors to have fleet.

As to Nids being the assault army of 40k? I'd say that title is contested heavily by the orks.

big squig
19-08-2009, 05:09
But the issue is that Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes have always been described as lumbering monsters, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be swift. It makes some sense at least for Gaunts, Genestealers, and Warriors to have fleet.

As to Nids being the assault army of 40k? I'd say that title is contested heavily by the orks.

Orks have way more firepower than nids do. Orks have giant guns along with their close combat troops. Nids have blades and talons naturally growing from their body as well as additional limbs.

Also, it's not like there isn't precedent for hive tyrants and carnifex's being faster than a man. Remember, there was a time when both had a movement of 6. And either way, a monstrous creature would have a huge stride. Besides, the current nid book describes neither creature as slow or lumbering and I would never consider a hive tyrant to be slow with it's I5.

Actually, from looking at the carnifex's current description, I'd say it's stats represent it very poorly.

PhalanxLord
19-08-2009, 05:15
But the issue is that Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes have always been described as lumbering monsters, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be swift. It makes some sense at least for Gaunts, Genestealers, and Warriors to have fleet.

As to Nids being the assault army of 40k? I'd say that title is contested heavily by the orks.

Most fluff describe fexes as very fast for their size and capable of much higher speeds than a human. They may look slow, but in the fluff they aren't at all.


Orks have way more firepower than nids do. Orks have giant guns along with their close combat troops. Nids have blades and talons naturally growing from their body as well as additional limbs.

Also, it's not like there isn't precedent for hive tyrants and carnifex's being faster than a man. Remember, there was a time when both had a movement of 6. And either way, a monstrous creature would have a huge stride. Besides, the current nid book describes neither creature as slow or lumbering and I would never consider a hive tyrant to be slow with it's I5.

Actually, from looking at the carnifex's current description, I'd say it's stats represent it very poorly.

Back when fexes had M6 they also had I6. They were faster in movement than marines and they had higher initiative than them. I also agree that their current stats don't fit them too great, at least as far as initiative and WS goes. I think they should be a bit more fearsome... At the very least base WS4.

Back in 2nd ed all nids I think had M6. Eldar had M5 for a comparison. Nids were faster than eldar back then, not including tanks.

big squig
19-08-2009, 05:52
Back when fexes had M6 they also had I6. They were faster in movement than marines and they had higher initiative than them. I also agree that their current stats don't fit them too great, at least as far as initiative and WS goes. I think they should be a bit more fearsome... At the very least base WS4.

Back in 2nd ed all nids I think had M6. Eldar had M5 for a comparison. Nids were faster than eldar back then, not including tanks.

Exactly. I think both the hive tyrant's and the carnifex's stats are off. Neither are quite as fearsome as they should be. Both need a WS and I boost.
I'd prolly put the Hive Tyrant at WS7, I6, S6, T6, and A4. The carnifex at WS5, I4, S9, T6, and A3. I'd also remove the carnifex' fearlessness.

Grand Master Raziel
19-08-2009, 06:52
Well, there's your problem. Genestealer feeder tendrils are overpowered. They're probably the single most overpowered upgrade in the entire game. There is no way they're going to be kept (at that price, at least) in the next codex (and, as you pointed out, the same applies to scuttlers), so why bother taking them into account? And if you don't have feeder tendrils, the Genestealers take down 6-7 Sluggaz before dying horribly.


That's not exactly true. Assuming the Stealers charge, without feeder tendrils they kill about half the mob through two rounds of close combat but get wiped out. I'll grant that FTs do something wildly different than they used to do, and likely their price will go up. However, Rending also does something wildly different now, and the cost of Stealers ought to correspondingly go down. So, the net result is probably much the same. Besides, as previously observed, Ork Boyz are undercosted, but an extra attack per Stealer changes the balance to the point where they should convincingly win vs equal points of Orks if they charge, though equal points of Orks will likely beat them on the charge, which is the balance point that Khorne Berserkers are currently at, which is about where I think Stealers ought to be. Anything more than that is too much.




With the arguable success of Leman Russ squadrons, we may be in for broods of 1-3 Carnifexes.

Great shades of Elvis, I hope not! You're forgetting two very important factors. The first is that vehicles are still subject to dying from single shots, something which MCs most decidedly are not. The second is that a Russ in a squadron is actually less resilient than the same Russ by itself, as squadroned vehicles treat Immobilized results as Destroyed results. In order to get the same balance point with MCs, they'd have to be subject to multiple wounds from S8+ weapons when in broods.


Orks have way more firepower than nids do.

That is not necessarily the case. I have a friend who sort of inherited a Nid army, and he hit on the idea of having everything that is capable sling a template, which works out to a revolting amount of firepower, still backed up with Stealers and MCs to boot. Nids don't exactly lack in the firepower department.

PhalanxLord
19-08-2009, 07:27
^ Yep, nids excell at anti-infantry firepower. Its the anti-tank ranged weapons that they lack. Very few armies can put out more wounds than a large unit of warriors and some good dice rolls.

Firaxin
19-08-2009, 07:27
All Gaunts regardless of what kind they are would have Without Number for free.
<snip>
Gargoyles... if not a points drop they too would get Without Number
w00t, my idea is finally catching on!


The second is that a Russ in a squadron is actually less resilient than the same Russ by itself, as squadroned vehicles treat Immobilized results as Destroyed results.
And not only that; squadroned Carnis would be 2-3x more resilient than normal because you could spread the wounds around.


Nids don't exactly lack in the firepower department.
Exactly. The Hive Mind is the supposed to be the perfect hunter. The near-limitless adaptability and the perfect-hunter title don't count for much if they only concern themselves with close combat.

genestealer_baldric
19-08-2009, 08:34
let me put it simply NO NO NO NO NO NO NO squads of fexs yeah 15 fexs wont have nids player being pleted out of the store with lumps of edam.:rolleyes:

big squig
19-08-2009, 09:23
let me put it simply NO NO NO NO NO NO NO squads of fexs yeah 15 fexs wont have nids player being pleted out of the store with lumps of edam.:rolleyes:
Well, I think people were suggesting fex broods INSTEAD of elite fex's. So, fex broods being 1-3 would mean a maximum of 9 in a army and each brood would have to be given the same biomorphs and bioweapons. It wouldn't be all that bad really.

Vhalyar
19-08-2009, 09:26
let me put it simply NO NO NO NO NO NO NO squads of fexs yeah 15 fexs wont have nids player being pleted out of the store with lumps of edam.:rolleyes:

Nidzilla is not going anywhere, I promise you. It's just as fluffly and Tyranid-like as Genestealer Cults and massed gaunts, something that people tend to forget.

Step 1: Genestealer Cult/Shock.
Step 2: Sea of gaunts to exhaust the defenders.
Step 3: Hordes of Carnifexes to tear and destroy everything.
Step 4: Rippers to digest the biomass.

It would be great if the new codex allowed us to create armies reflecting the various stages of a Tyranid invasion. And for that, Nidzilla should stay. Plus I'm pretty sure that Carnifexes sell really well - it would be a terribly stupid move from GW to cut down on the number that we can field.

Remove Elite fexes but allow HS fex squadrons. In most games you would have a hard time fielding 9 fexes, let alone upgraded ones. Even then, you still need to think about your HQ and troops.

big squig
19-08-2009, 10:08
Nidzilla is not going anywhere, I promise you. It's just as fluffly and Tyranid-like as Genestealer Cults and massed gaunts, something that people tend to forget.

Step 1: Genestealer Cult/Shock.
Step 2: Sea of gaunts to exhaust the defenders.
Step 3: Hordes of Carnifexes to tear and destroy everything.
Step 4: Rippers to digest the biomass.

It would be great if the new codex allowed us to create armies reflecting the various stages of a Tyranid invasion. And for that, Nidzilla should stay. Plus I'm pretty sure that Carnifexes sell really well - it would be a terribly stupid move from GW to cut down on the number that we can field.

Remove Elite fexes but allow HS fex squadrons. In most games you would have a hard time fielding 9 fexes, let alone upgraded ones. Even then, you still need to think about your HQ and troops.
I agree. Just the simple fact that armies in 5th ed have to have a strong troop base, coupled with tyrand's reliance on synapse, should keep nidzilla from being over-powered.

Dreachon
19-08-2009, 10:24
And the naysayers to fex broods should remember this, biovores are likely to get a significant boost, same will go for zoanthropes, were also gonna have a Trygon ( likely heavy support ) so the heavy support slots will be hotly contested.
With 4 new species in the codex who knows what else there might be for the heavy support.
Right now the only reason you see so many fex's arund is simply because the other heavies aren't that good.

squeekenator
19-08-2009, 11:15
Well, this is how I would do the next Tyranid codex. It fits in with the new streamlined options lists of recent codexes without being entirely bereft of customisation, and allows for pretty much any army theme you care for (other than ranged Carnifex spam). I'm a bit sketchy on the balance of some things, especially The Horror and boneswords, but it's only a rough draft. And in case anyone's wondering, I didn't leave out Spore Mines and Biovores because I dislike them or anything, I just couldn't think of what to do with them. I'll add them in later.

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 12:13
And not only that; squadroned Carnis would be 2-3x more resilient than normal because you could spread the wounds around.
As Big Sguig repeated, the Carnifexes would have to be identically armed, which means that not only will they not be able to spread the Wounds around, but "overkill" wounds would be applied to other members of the brood. They would be in some way less resilient.

marv335
19-08-2009, 12:21
broods of fexes?
They'd have to slash the toughness and save, plus cut the wounds to even approach games balance.
Sounds like a really really bad idea.
Squadrons of tanks work because they have serious vulnerabilities. MC don't and get exponentially harder to deal with.

Max Jet
19-08-2009, 12:40
Well, this is how I would do the next Tyranid codex. It fits in with the new streamlined options lists of recent codexes without being entirely bereft of customisation, and allows for pretty much any army theme you care for (other than ranged Carnifex spam). I'm a bit sketchy on the balance of some things, especially The Horror and boneswords, but it's only a rough draft. And in case anyone's wondering, I didn't leave out Spore Mines and Biovores because I dislike them or anything, I just couldn't think of what to do with them. I'll add them in later.

Oh dear... I think most weapons on the Tyrant are undercosted, while the Guard is overcosted.

Fleet and Infiltrate on the Broodlord are extremely bad.

Genestealers as Elites? Just like they are right now? With their toned down rending? And I have to sacrifice a HQ for one single Genestealer Troop choice? You know HQs are more worth than elites...

The lictor... 150 points.. and still can die so easily... Admitted they can do so many fun things, but playtest it.. the will STILL loose point for point in CC
and the fact that they don't scatter. Right now you have made their flaws even worse and their good points even better. This is absolutely the wrong way to handle them

Warriors.. still too expensive Especially some weapons

Gaunts. Well done! But spikerifle plus Toxin Sacs = S 5 for mere 7 points.. no.. just NOO

AAAAH hormagaunts!! Now they look worthy!

The Venom cannon on the Carnifex is too cheap. Especially as it can penetrate now.
Regenerate is too cheap also
FLEET???? for FREE????

Hm well realy.. I realy realy appreciate your work and efforts.. but I have to say this codex is extremely bad thought out, a little bit boring and surely not playtested.. I am very sorry.

squeekenator
19-08-2009, 13:06
Oh dear... I think most weapons on the Tyrant are undercosted, while the Guard is overcosted.

Quite possibly. Point costs have never been my specialty.

Fleet and Infiltrate on the Broodlord are extremely bad.

First turn charges really aren't that impressive now that you can't chain-consolidate, particularly when your chargers have 5+ saves and cost such a huge amount.

Genestealers as Elites? Just like they are right now? With their toned down rending? And I have to sacrifice a HQ for one single Genestealer Troop choice? You know HQs are more worth than elites...

Read more carefully. They have razor claws, not rending claws. Razor claws are power weapons.

The lictor... 150 points.. and still can die so easily... Admitted they can do so many fun things, but playtest it.. the will STILL loose point for point in CC
and the fact that they don't scatter. Right now you have made their flaws even worse and their good points even better. This is absolutely the wrong way to handle them

They can leap 12" and take out a Tactical squad with ease thanks to their razor claws. They get hit and wounded on a 5+ rather than a 4+, have a 4+ save and have an extra wound. They also charge in with 6 attacks. Point for point they kick everyone's ass.

Warriors.. still too expensive Especially some weapons

Compare them to Nobz with 'eavy armour. With dual scything talons, they get as many attacks, with constant S5 rather than just on the charge, and have +1 T, better Initiative and synapse, all for 5 points more. Another 5 points gives them power weapons.

Gaunts. Well done! But spikerifle plus Toxin Sacs = S 5 for mere 7 points.. no.. just NOO

True, that could be a bit too good, but making them any more expensive would make toxin sacs increase the cost of the gaunt by over 50%. That's ridiculous. They still die like flies.

AAAAH hormagaunts!! Now they look worthy!

Yay!

The Venom cannon on the Carnifex is too cheap. Especially as it can penetrate now.

I wouldn't be surprised. I'd sorta zoned out once I reached the Carnifex, I wasn't really paying attention to point costs.

Regenerate is too cheap also

Regenerate is pretty crap, so I'd say the cost is probably justified. Anyway, the current 15pt version is just a temporary fix. I plan on revising biomorphs and making regenerate cost the same as before but actually be worth it.

FLEET???? for FREE????

Because melee Carnifexes are so overpowered right now...

10characters

big squig
19-08-2009, 13:46
Here's the bug book I've been working on. It's a little dull, but very user friendly. (also hasn't been playtested)

HereticLosMorte
19-08-2009, 14:17
Tyranids have been steadily getting weaker with each edition and I hope the tide is about to turn.



how do you figure nids are getting steadily weaker and weaker with each edition?

i understand they are in line with 5th ed. rules atm due to an outdated codex, but they're not weak.

i have never lost a game with my tyranids, unlike every other army i have/played.

that must say something about them, or maybe it's just my army composition.
i still think they're quite the powerhouse in their own right.

Max Jet
19-08-2009, 14:31
First turn charges really aren't that impressive now that you can't chain-consolidate, particularly when your chargers have 5+ saves and cost such a huge amount.

The fact is that the Genestealers are not mandatory in your codex. As it stands now I would take the broodlord and rush them into the Imperial guard HQ or even a valuable Tau unit. The Broodlord will win the fight, he is like a Lictor only cheaper and better. Against certain oponents he won't do much, but he may cause havoc on the Tau or the Imperial guard. You can charge him int the back of a leman russ and he costs less than half. It's just that I think this might be an extremely dirty tactic.


Read more carefully. They have razor claws, not rending claws. Razor claws are power weapons.

I am very sorry! Of course.. that makes sense. Sorry, they are now a valuable elite choice.


They can leap 12" and take out a Tactical squad with ease thanks to their razor claws. They get hit and wounded on a 5+ rather than a 4+, have a 4+ save and have an extra wound. They also charge in with 6 attacks. Point for point they kick everyone's ass.

Hm they will kill a tactical squad you are absolutely right. And you have solved the powerfist problem.. I think I have been utter wrong with this one, after testing it a little bit and doing the maths this guy is a wonder and he is vulnerable when you don't watch out for him. Please accept my apologize I think you have saved the lictor!


Compare them to Nobz with 'eavy armour. With dual scything talons, they get as many attacks, with constant S5 rather than just on the charge, and have +1 T, better Initiative and synapse, all for 5 points more. Another 5 points gives them power weapons.

I am rather comparing them to the rest of the army and to what they are right now. Warriors are pretty unattractive choices compared to the gaunt floods you can take for the points. Right now everyone would take Genestealers or Lictors instead. They don't stand well near the other choices (but the 3+ save price was right)


True, that could be a bit too good, but making them any more expensive would make toxin sacs increase the cost of the gaunt by over 50%. That's ridiculous. They still die like flies.

They are more mobile than Firewarriors and their save doesn't always help, but you removed the scuttling, preventing a dirty tactic.
You should do something about the range then. 24" + 6" walking = effectively?


Regenerate is pretty crap, so I'd say the cost is probably justified. Anyway, the current 15pt version is just a temporary fix. I plan on revising biomorphs and making regenerate cost the same as before but actually be worth it.

Hm well.. imagine the following situation. Your Carnifex has crossed half the field up until the cover. He has taken 3 wounds. 30 points and you have bought 5 wounds plus regenerate. Now this beasty rolls once.. one wound regenerated. You roll the next turn and you will have a 66% chance to regenerate the second wound.
So for mere 15 points you got 2 wounds. I would ALWAYS take it.


Because melee Carnifexes are so overpowered right now...

They certainly are not, but imagine a Dakka Fex, because he is always better in CC than at ranged combat.

And there still is a lack of imagination.. no new units or biomorphes. I will keep an eye on your codex.

aaronaleong
19-08-2009, 14:43
Big Squig, looks good!

Brendi
19-08-2009, 15:18
Well, this is how I would do the next Tyranid codex. It fits in with the new streamlined options lists of recent codexes without being entirely bereft of customisation, and allows for pretty much any army theme you care for (other than ranged Carnifex spam). I'm a bit sketchy on the balance of some things, especially The Horror and boneswords, but it's only a rough draft. And in case anyone's wondering, I didn't leave out Spore Mines and Biovores because I dislike them or anything, I just couldn't think of what to do with them. I'll add them in later.


Wall of text incoming


There are some things in your dex that I like and some that I donīt like.

Hive tyrant and the broodlord are both ok, nothing big that I cared for/didnīt care for. Except that with a lash whip and bonesword a CC Flyrant now would be an insane character killer. Also you got rid of acid maw, which I like.

Tyrant guard with razor claws is a nice boost, since rending with 3-9 attacks isnīt that good.


Now, I do not care for your genestealers.

1) They lost their edge vs vehicles. I think that they have the potential to rip anything to bits is how it should be. They are our swiss army knife.

2) They lost scuttlers. Genestealers need scout, especially with the amount of shots most armies can put out these days. Even if they got fleet, theyīre slow as heck and vulnerable compared to transported assault troops or jumping ones.

3) They lost feeder tendrils, which is fine regarding the razorclaws, but I think rending + re-roll is more appropriate.

4) Theyīre elite. They should remain troops, especially regarding objectives and such in 5th ed. Also, I think there should be more elite choices than 2 to choose from. Just look at SM/Guard. Guard got 5 and SM got 8!


Your lictor is...Iīm not sure. I feel like itīs too powerful overrall, it should be more of a specialist. This lictor will eat troop choices alive, hide in cover and if itīs lucky eat another troop choice.
I want it to be more reliable and more specialised. Give it a targetting rule ( it chooses who gets the wounds), implant attack and something akin to the harlequins veil of tears.

Leaping is definately a nice touch.
Camouflage Deployment is also nice and appropriate. Keeps it limited to terrain, but gives it the freedom it deserves.
Razorclaws also works for the lictor, since rending is largely wasted on vehicles with itīs strength.


Warriors as troops is....not appropriate I think. The best suggestion Iīve seen so far would be to have them as "sergeants" in gaunt units. 1 per 8 gaunts would be a good size.

Also, while they have gotten killier ( bs 3-4 is good), some of the upgrade costs are overboard. CC ones would easily be 50-60+ points.
Even with a 3+ save thatīs just way to expensive.

Your gaunts are good, what they should be. Spike rifle is cool, but not overpowered at all.
Your WoN is also what it should be. With outflanking it simulates the Swarm surrounding the target.
If that isnīt how the new WoN is then I hope itīs something like the gaunt apocalypse formation benefit. Having a special rule that halve the total amount of casualties the gaunts suffers is an idea of mine. Which I think symbolises the amount of gaunts nicely without them appearing at our table edge, which makes them slow and not very useful. The exception being objectives.

Hormagaunts are also good.


Not a fan of rippers in any form, but these are ok considering no vulnerability.
I think they would be way too good vs MCs with wings and spinefists. Especially daemons.

I like your gargoyles. Some people might complain when that unit of 30 with toxin sacs, enhanced senses and devourers come back through WoN though :P

Raveners suffer from the same problem as warriors, upgrade festival.
Raveners should also be rending, in my opinion. They should have many attacks and short-range weaponry. Keep the original raveners at 30 points, give them S and T 5, 4+ save and flesh hooks. Then give them either 2x Scytals for 4 pts or scytals + rending for 6. And to finish give them the ability to take one Acid-spray biomorph per 3 raveners in the group (rounding up).
The acid-spray being S5 AP5 and costing 10 pts.


Carnifex seems ok, but crushing claws are even worse than they are now.
Make them +1 vehicle dmg chart and that if you hit with two or more attacks you can choose to sacrifice those two hits to keep the vehicle immobilised for one turn. Additionally they simply grant +1 attack.

Youīve nerfed the Zoanthrope and kept them at the same cost. Make them cheaper and make it so that you gotta kill em all to get one kill point. Maybe make a special rule that they count as a brood no matter how far they are from eachother, so if you can shoot one you can shoot them all.
Effectively itīs that they suffer brain damage as their broodmate ( to which they are closely connected) is being torn to pieces. PS: doesnīt work for assault.

Corpse
19-08-2009, 16:48
It was a little lengthly to look at every page and I skimmed through perhaps missing a few things. I should have kept up with this thread. Oh well.

Someone mentioned brood-fexes. Its true everything grows and some broods may be sent out prematurely (in a literal sense). So if large creatures said that prefer to hunt solo will be awfully understatted, T5 3 wound fexes would be proper for a brood of 1-3. Lesser strength, and of course that would affect its weapons but in return it would be faster not being so bulky so a higher natural initiative would be in there.
Just a thought, to keep that idea alive for future reference.

I looked at the pdf's, it looks ok. I think everything should be toned down personally. Necrons, Eldar and Tyranids are among the eldest races in the galaxy. Eldar are the savvy and sleek, necrons are the durable slow menace while tyranids are the numbers that know no count. I believe if stats were toned down on tyranids and made horribly cheap (being another horde army) like having young carnifexes in heavy number and so on. That would boost GW's sales since a numerous army as the codex is now is not very tempting since paying 10 dollars more you get more bang for the buck with a hulking monster rather then little critters.

Yet another money gulping army I sense. Like imperial guard were just made to be. We need more orks and more guardsmen now, and I feel its a trend for the non-PA armies. To really show the rarity and outnumbered men of the marines. GW couldnt do this before but they can now, so I've been giving a heads up lately on my concern.

Tyranids will suffer the same fate as guardsmen, cheaper models, price raise.

Revelations
19-08-2009, 17:14
Trygons are a definite. We've already seen the models.
The Baneblade and Stompa are also current plastic models, this doesn't mean they exist in the normal Codex. It be nice for sure, but I'm not holding my breath.

With gaunts, instead of the current Without Number, what if each turn you rolled 1D6 per squad and that is how many gaunts returned and were added to the squads current position. This is to show the uncountable mob that is a gaunt rush charging towrads you.
My group started using this a while ago; it's worked out splendidly since then. I also used it as the mechanic in my Dex (1 of the 50 being shown in this thread. ;))

Grand Master Raziel
19-08-2009, 17:34
Well, I think people were suggesting fex broods INSTEAD of elite fex's. So, fex broods being 1-3 would mean a maximum of 9 in a army and each brood would have to be given the same biomorphs and bioweapons. It wouldn't be all that bad really.

That's still 3 more Fexes than the current book allows. No thanks. Plus, we have no idea whether or not the whole brood would have to have the same upgrades. The current precedent is Warrior broods, which don't have to have the same upgrades. So, it seems not unlikely that Fex broods would get the same treatment, which opens up Wound Allocation shenanigans. I don't even want to allow the possibility of that. At any rate, the whole idea of Fex broods is massively overpowered, WA-shenanigans or not, so don't get your hopes up.


Nidzilla is not going anywhere, I promise you. It's just as fluffly and Tyranid-like as Genestealer Cults and massed gaunts, something that people tend to forget.

It's also fluffy for Space Marines to drop pod into an enemy command post, smash it, and make massive armies panic and flee, but there are no rules for that. Just because something is fluffy doesn't mean it deserves to be portrayed on the tabletop.


It would be great if the new codex allowed us to create armies reflecting the various stages of a Tyranid invasion. And for that, Nidzilla should stay. Plus I'm pretty sure that Carnifexes sell really well - it would be a terribly stupid move from GW to cut down on the number that we can field.

Why? You've bought the Fexes already. Now GW wants you to buy something else. So, cutting down on the number of Fexes you can field actually makes good business sense for GW, since it'll force you to buy something to replace those Fexes you used to be able to field as Elites. GW will be well-insulated from complaint on this one, too, as the rest of the gaming community doesn't really like players who field Nidzilla all that much.


Remove Elite fexes but allow HS fex squadrons. In most games you would have a hard time fielding 9 fexes, let alone upgraded ones. Even then, you still need to think about your HQ and troops.

Pfft. I've already seen Nid players fielding the minimum 8 Gaunts and 3 Rippers so they can cram absurd amount of Fexes and Hive Tyrants into low-points games. They'll just do that at higher-level games, too.

DarkstarSabre
19-08-2009, 18:13
It's also fluffy for Space Marines to drop pod into an enemy command post, smash it, and make massive armies panic and flee, but there are no rules for that. Just because something is fluffy doesn't mean it deserves to be portrayed on the tabletop.




The rules for Morale didn't suddenly depart the book.
Drop Pods aren't destroyed if they scatter onto the enemy, they instead force the enemy out of the way.
There is a huge amount of units you can put into a drop pod.

A Space Marine army can drop pod a unit right next to an enemy HQ choice, gun it and other things down with supporting fire and cause Morale checks quite easily.

In fact, if it's a Tau ethereal you've just offed there's a decent chance the army may indeed flee as a result.

Lord Humongous
19-08-2009, 19:02
As Big Sguig repeated, the Carnifexes would have to be identically armed, which means that not only will they not be able to spread the Wounds around, but "overkill" wounds would be applied to other members of the brood. They would be in some way less resilient.

And that's not mentioning the fact that a blast weapon could inflict multiple wounds on the unit. If they were all identical, that would mean a potential 3 wounds on one carnifex from (say) a battlecannon.

senorcardgage
19-08-2009, 19:15
I assume this has already been said, but the original post is just ridiculous... Do people really think like this?

Lord Damocles
19-08-2009, 19:16
I assume this has already been said, but the original post is just ridiculous... Do people really think like this?
- Double checks -

Yep, this is still Warseer ;)

Justice And Rule
19-08-2009, 19:29
Some of the suggestions in the original post might be ridiculous (Feel No Pain? Yeah, about that...), but there are a lot of good suggestions within the thread.

Vepr
19-08-2009, 19:31
Not sure if it would be over powered or not but it would be nice if nids got 2d6 take the highest when running. Nids are supposed to be scary fast but with everyone having run they are not really any faster than other armies and with all the transports other armies have they are actually considerably slower.

Adyger
19-08-2009, 19:45
Some of the suggestions in the original post might be ridiculous (Feel No Pain? Yeah, about that...), but there are a lot of good suggestions within the thread.

I would have to agree. Nids were my first army and I really enjoyed playing them in fourth edition. 5th edition, I have had some good games, but the game I played last night is a great example of how hard it has become to play nids in 5th. We were playing a 1500 point nid vs guard game. It was a capture and control mission with a dawn of war deployment (we rolled for both of these, they weren't decided ahead of time). I took a tyrant with venom cannon and 5 warriors for synapse, a 20 strong squad of scuttling termaguants, a 20 strong squad of spine guants, a 20 strong squad of hormagaunts, 6 rippers, 10 scuttling genestealers, an "elite" 113 point carn with double twin-linked devourers and a Heavy carn with venom cannon. I knew I'd have a hard time with vehicles, but figured my large squads would be okay. For 1500 points I figured I had lots of models.
Well, my opponent deployed a lone squad of penal legion on his objective and nothing else. My Tyrnat shot three of them the first turn. That was the best turn for the nids. (the nids went first). At the beginning of his move phase my opponent rolled on 2 collosus mortars and the leman russ which ignores cover and is AP 4 (i think it's an eradicator, but can't be sure). 3 valkyries with missile pods also moved on, and a foot sloggin HQ. That was his army. The Valks each held veterans for his troop choices and he scouted on some stormtroopers later. He basically kept all his men in the Valks until the final turn. By then the spines and rippers were completely wiped out (even though they had been in cover the entire time) the termaguants had wiped out the penal legion, but where then cut in half by one of the collosus. The tyrant had finally managed to "wreck" one collosus by finally getting enough weapon destroyed/immoblised on it (from shooting, that turn I could have assualted it if it had survived). One Valk had been immobolized by my elite carn before he got cut down completly, and the genes had gotten the other collosus (although it exploded and killed three of them). The heavy carn sadly did nothing and the warriors didn't arrive until the final turn (when there was really nothing left for them to do). The guard player one because even the immobolized Valk had troops inside who were able to claim that objective, and after cutting down 13 of my twenty horm (my only troop left), the other two Valks with their veterans were right over the other objective. I don't see any way the nids could have beaten that list. Destroying vehicles is just too hard for them in this edition.

Justice And Rule
19-08-2009, 19:53
Another suggestion: Rather than giving more gaunts for Without Number, perhaps a more creative interpretation would be better. For example:

Without Number - Gaunts and Hormagaunts are nothing to the Hive Mind, and generally only function as meatshields to hide more important creatures within the horde. Killing them means nothing in the long run. Gaunts and Hormagaunts do not yield Kill Points when destroyed or routed.

This way Gaunts can be shredded by people without concern for giving up tons of Kill Points for it.

marv335
19-08-2009, 20:11
Another suggestion: Rather than giving more gaunts for Without Number, perhaps a more creative interpretation would be better. For example:

Without Number - Gaunts and Hormagaunts are nothing to the Hive Mind, and generally only function as meatshields to hide more important creatures within the horde. Killing them means nothing in the long run. Gaunts and Hormagaunts do not yield Kill Points when destroyed or routed.

This way Gaunts can be shredded by people without concern for giving up tons of Kill Points for it.
That I don't like.
Perhaps only giving up 1 kill point when the unit is first destroyed, then not giving any up for the returned unit when it gets destroyed.

Vaktathi
19-08-2009, 21:19
I would have to agree. Nids were my first army and I really enjoyed playing them in fourth edition. 5th edition, I have had some good games, but the game I played last night is a great example of how hard it has become to play nids in 5th. We were playing a 1500 point nid vs guard game. It was a capture and control mission with a dawn of war deployment (we rolled for both of these, they weren't decided ahead of time). I took a tyrant with venom cannon and 5 warriors for synapse, a 20 strong squad of scuttling termaguants, a 20 strong squad of spine guants, a 20 strong squad of hormagaunts, 6 rippers, 10 scuttling genestealers, an "elite" 113 point carn with double twin-linked devourers and a Heavy carn with venom cannon. I knew I'd have a hard time with vehicles, but figured my large squads would be okay. For 1500 points I figured I had lots of models.
Well, my opponent deployed a lone squad of penal legion on his objective and nothing else. My Tyrnat shot three of them the first turn. That was the best turn for the nids. (the nids went first). At the beginning of his move phase my opponent rolled on 2 collosus mortars and the leman russ which ignores cover and is AP 4 (i think it's an eradicator, but can't be sure). 3 valkyries with missile pods also moved on, and a foot sloggin HQ. That was his army. The Valks each held veterans for his troop choices and he scouted on some stormtroopers later. He basically kept all his men in the Valks until the final turn. By then the spines and rippers were completely wiped out (even though they had been in cover the entire time) the termaguants had wiped out the penal legion, but where then cut in half by one of the collosus. The tyrant had finally managed to "wreck" one collosus by finally getting enough weapon destroyed/immoblised on it (from shooting, that turn I could have assualted it if it had survived). One Valk had been immobolized by my elite carn before he got cut down completly, and the genes had gotten the other collosus (although it exploded and killed three of them). The heavy carn sadly did nothing and the warriors didn't arrive until the final turn (when there was really nothing left for them to do). The guard player one because even the immobolized Valk had troops inside who were able to claim that objective, and after cutting down 13 of my twenty horm (my only troop left), the other two Valks with their veterans were right over the other objective. I don't see any way the nids could have beaten that list. Destroying vehicles is just too hard for them in this edition.

Don't try to outshoot Imperial Guard. once you get into a vehicle in CC with just about anything, they die. Genestealers with rending, flyrants, even carnifex's, they tear apart tanks in CC. Your list looks like it was really reliant on shooting, which is exactly how an IG army would want you to play. That IG army also seems like a rather heavily tailored anti-Tyranid list with little anti-tank itself.

electricblooz
19-08-2009, 21:33
I agree with Vak - the IG list sounds exactly what an IG commander should send against a Nid swarm (which, of course, has exactly zilch to do with what a good mate should pick to ensure a fun game). One question I do have is are all your swarm-y broods S3? Since all CC attack on non-walker vehicles hit the rear armor any brood with numerous attacks and S4 will cripple most IG tanks with ease (I'm thinking here of your scuttling 'stealers)

Revelations
19-08-2009, 21:46
Drop Pods aren't destroyed if they scatter onto the enemy, they instead force the enemy out of the way.
Quick note - Drop Pods don't move enemies, you might be thinking of the Necron Monolith. Drop Pods just land 1in away from enemies. Although given the continued changes to the SM Dex, that might be a future rule given to them. ;)

I assume this has already been said, but the original post is just ridiculous... Do people really think like this?
A lot of people do. I can see the original point - having something stripped from your Codex for various reasons and then see it resurfacing in another armies Codex. (But I'm sure we don't need to get into that here)

Justice And Rule
19-08-2009, 22:00
Also, I'm against Carnifex Broods if they all have to be identical. That's ridiculously restrictive, and harsh on players like me who don't have any identical Carnifexes. No other big vehicle squadrons are like this, so I don't understand why Carnifexes should so radically different.

A better way would be to restrict a single brood to one of three sub-categories:
- Support Carnifexes, which have two ranged biomorphs.
- Combat Carnifexes, which have two close-combat biomorphs.
- Balanced Carnifexes, which have one of each.

That's much more intuitive and flexible, while still having some restrictions. You might want to restrict Carnifex broods to 1 per Troops choice taken, or you can't have more Carnifexes than Gaunt/Hormagaunt broods.

squeekenator
19-08-2009, 22:25
And there still is a lack of imagination.. no new units or biomorphes. I will keep an eye on your codex.

Yeah, well, that was something I threw together in half an hour, hence the lack of spore mine-related stuff. I certainly plan to add new things later, maybe tonight.


Your lictor is...Iīm not sure. I feel like itīs too powerful overrall, it should be more of a specialist.

I prefer the 2nd ed Lictor who burst out from nowhere and eats a whole squad. Lictors, in my mind, should be something scary. Your opponent should be terrified of any piece of area terrain, and refuse to put anyone anywhere near it.


Also, while they have gotten killier ( bs 3-4 is good), some of the upgrade costs are overboard. CC ones would easily be 50-60+ points.

Yeah, I see what you mean, but that only happens if you spam upgrades. If you just take one or two biomorphs, they can be quite cost-effective. For example, you could get scything talons, razor claws and toxin sacs for 40pts per model, which makes them just as killy as Grey Knight Brother-Captains. The massive price only comes into play if you can't resist giving them every biomorph they might possibly want.


Raveners should also be rending, in my opinion.

Actually, I agree with you here. I gave them razor claws out of habit, but now that I think about it, I do prefer rending Raveners.


Carnifex seems ok, but crushing claws are even worse than they are now.

Statistically speaking, current crushing claws give 3.5 attacks per round. Mine give 4 per round. Nothing special, but it's still a bonus. However, I will drop the price.


Youīve nerfed the Zoanthrope and kept them at the same cost.

I reduced their combat stats (it's not like they were going to win a fight anyway) and took away their toxic miasma, yes. However, I did give them free Synapse and the option to be one big brood that only gives up a single Kill Point. I'd say that's a change in their favour.

EDIT: Revised version uploaded, a few underlined tweaks and a big new gribbly added.

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 22:26
Also, I'm against Carnifex Broods if they all have to be identical. That's ridiculously restrictive, and harsh on players like me who don't have any identical Carnifexes.
The idea was: okay, if Gee Dubya did Leman Russ squadrons, they might also do Carnifex Broods. Broods of Carnifexes sounds like the kind of thing Tyranids might do. "One Carnifex didn't work? Let's try three."

From that premise, the idea is to see how that might possibly end up not-broken.

One big and straightforward way to help is to prevent the brood from abusing the wound allocation rules. The easiest way to prevent the brood from abusing wound allocation is by forcing the brood to be made of identically-armed models.

The open question has been: "Is that enough?"

It very well might be, depending on how that actually turns out on the field. Then again, the 11 MC army might be too tough. Then again, how many of us have seen armies featuring 9 Vendettas? You can do it, but there are problems.

Carnifex Broods would allow GW to cut the Shock Troops rule while deflecting flak from Tyranid players angry about having more Carnifex models then they could otherwise use. Shock Troops would almost certainly bite the dust should broods of 'Fexes appear.

These days, Nidzilla (the full 8 MCs) still happens, but it has a few problems. Many Tyranid players already cut down the MCs to 5 or 6 for their competitive lists so that they can fit in Warriors, Zoanthropes and more Genestealers.

Justice And Rule
19-08-2009, 22:47
I understand the idea, but giving people broods and then saying "But you can only use identical Carnifexes" doesn't help Carnifex players who want to field all their Carnifex models because, generally speaking, all our Carnifexes aren't identical. It doesn't really solve anything.

I'd look more towards changing how wounds are allocated with Carnifex broods. Like, give the firer the ability to distribute half the wounds so he can prevent the defender from just scattering all the wounds or putting them on a sacrificial Fex. That'd give a disadvantage to it.

Either that, or maybe limit 2 per brood. Do we have to have 3?

Vhalyar
19-08-2009, 23:01
I understand the idea, but giving people broods and then saying "But you can only use identical Carnifexes" doesn't help Carnifex players who want to field all their Carnifex models because, generally speaking, all our Carnifexes aren't identical. It doesn't really solve anything.

I'd look more towards changing how wounds are allocated with Carnifex broods. Like, give the firer the ability to distribute half the wounds so he can prevent the defender from just scattering all the wounds or putting them on a sacrificial Fex. That'd give a disadvantage to it.

Either that, or maybe limit 2 per brood. Do we have to have 3?

Should have magnetized them fexes :cool:

Justice And Rule
19-08-2009, 23:07
Well, by this all I need to do is magnetize two more Carnifexes and it should solve all my problems. :P

itcamefromthedeep
19-08-2009, 23:13
Well, this is how I would do the next Tyranid codex.
The Horror is the kind of rule that makes alarm bells go off in my head. It doesn't so much make sense against Daemons or Khorne Berzerkers. It even seems odd in the context of Orks. As awesome as that fight is, not every army is Imperial Guard, so you can't generalize the conceits of that matchup. Global effects should be something that your own dudes do. In other words, a Codex shouldn't tell another army's models how they should feel. You might say, for instance, that "When a Tyranid unit initiates an assault, the opponent must pass a Morale test or suffer -1 WS." Phrase it more like that, and it could make more sense.

The good ol' Tyrant Guard. As it turns out, Hive Tyrants aren't characters, so they don't actually need a "retinue" rule to avoid being picked out. The Tyrant is effectively just a squad member. Note that while I put a rule in my fandex similar to what you did, I shouldn't have. There's no need for it. With that in mind, "screw you" clauses like "Vindicare rules don't work on me lol" rub me the wrong way. Allow the units in other armies to use the abilities that they paid for. It's only polite.

Power weapons on the Genestealers could work in theory, but I'm more than a little wary. I feel like the army (and the unit) that started the rending rule should keep it. I'd like a Tyranid horde-themed army to be able to fight a Wraithlord in melée, and Genestealers with rending do that just fine.

As a personal preference, I'd like to be able to actually field a model for the price given in the "unit price" section. For instance, when the Tyranid Warrior entry says 20pts/model, that's a dirty, dirty lie, because you can't put a Tyranid Warrior model on the field for 20pts at all. Make the unit price equal the least expensive possible option, then trade up to switch weapons. I believe you'll find that recent codexes all do this (from Orks forward?).

For Rippers, you might want to look up the Swarm USR. You might not (I ignored it, too, but it looks like the Swarm rule gives you what you want). I still see no reason to bring Rippers along to a competitive game. They're not killy for their price, they're not durable for their price, and they're not scoring.

There are plenty of quibbles, but I'm sure you're more interested in how the mechanics look.

EDIT: NO RETREAT
There must always be a penalty for losing combat. Always. This can either be in the form of a Morale test or the form of No Retreat saves. I think the alternative is a recipe for frustration. If you want to mitigate the effects of No Retreat then go ahead, but be careful about it.

Justice And Rule
19-08-2009, 23:50
I agree that having people ALWAYS suffering the effects of "The Horror" is way too much. A better way of doing it would be to keep it as a Psychic Power that works within the synapse range of a creature, and force a unit taking a morale check to roll a third die and keep the two highest results. Remember, Tyranid psykers have Leadership values of 10, so you have to expect they'll always pull their powers. You can't make them too overpowering.

Shadow of the Warp, on the other hand, should be taken away as it's not really a power per say, but an effect of Tyranids being around. I think any psyker inside the command bubble of a Synapse Creature should suffer from its effects, as it gives Synapse Creatures a tangible advantage for being closer to the enemy, and it's a neat way of implementing it rather than doing "all or nothing". It also gives more value to Synapse creatures.

Plus, I'd just get rid of "Instinctive Behavior" altogether. Having an extremely low leadership and being very killable is enough of a drawback, and I prefer to have as little book-keeping as possible.

itcamefromthedeep
20-08-2009, 01:25
What I'm most interested in seeing is GW plans to deal with Instinctive Behavior. The idea that the Tyranid army "falls apart" after it loses synapse control is very difficult to model on the tabletop, but it is a vitally important part of the Tyranid background material.

A big obstacle to making IB really work the way it's supposed to is the number of models in the book that simply don't need synapse to function. It's hard to say that an army is falling apart when the only models that seem to notice are the Gaunts.

Egaeus
20-08-2009, 01:35
As a personal preference, I'd like to be able to actually field a model for the price given in the "unit price" section. For instance, when the Tyranid Warrior entry says 20pts/model, that's a dirty, dirty lie, because you can't put a Tyranid Warrior model on the field for 20pts at all. Make the unit price equal the least expensive possible option, then trade up to switch weapons. I believe you'll find that recent codexes all do this (from Orks forward?).

I heartily agree with this. I can't count the number of times I've said that it feels like the desginers forgot you had to purchase weapons in addition to the model and this might be the reason they're so overpriced.


EDIT: NO RETREAT
There must always be a penalty for losing combat. Always. This can either be in the form of a Morale test or the form of No Retreat saves. I think the alternative is a recipe for frustration. If you want to mitigate the effects of No Retreat then go ahead, but be careful about it.

Why can't the penalty of losing combat be simply that you lost? Although this is one of the reasons I had suggested Synapse change to Stubborn Ld 10...very likely to pass (in which case you suffer no further ill effects), but the possibility of rare times that it can be failed, which to me could represent more of a "heroic defense" where the 'Nids get (temporarily) pushed back. Perhpas re-rolls for Synapse creatures themselves if you want them to be really reliable.

The biggest issue for me is the Gaunts have never really been meant to be the "killy" units in the army...they're the ones that rush in and hold the line until the nasty units can get there...so you don't necessaryily throw them into a combat expecting them to win, they're just there to hold the line. So to lose even more when you lose the combat seems like adding insult to injury. Perhaps if they were just significantly cheaper (which is somewhat expected in the new codex anyways) it wouldn't be so bad. We all know they're expected to die, it's just they need to be able to die for a cause.

Jackmojo
20-08-2009, 02:02
Make synapse a buff effect whose exact bonus varies from unit to unit. Feel no pain, stubborn, fearless, twin linked guns, using the synapse Leadership, etc...

Sort of an automatic version of the IG orders buff effects. Ditch Instinctive behavior, just make it work so that units outside synapse are much less good then units being powered by the Hivemind.

Jack

Captain Micha
20-08-2009, 02:27
I noticed no one made comments on it in my post so I'll mention it again.

Rather than have Spamable Fexes, why not just make a new MC for the Elite Slot? One that doesn't >> Warriors, and one that isn't a Fex.

(because spammable Fexes let's face it, will still keep you from taking warriors even if they aren't in Elites anymore)

Everyone's happy that way. You still get Godzilla, and the other choices are still viable (take into context the other things I'd do for the bugs)

Bolter Bait
20-08-2009, 03:02
Well, buzz along Synapse nodes is that the book is already written by the guy who did the new Guard book, it contains 4 brand new, never been in codex creatures, including one that dwarfs the Carnifex, and that Tyranids will have "special characters" in that they are creatures that survived wars and rather than being subsumed back, they are "one-off" mutants, ala Red Terror and Old One Eye in 3rd ed codex.

Also, apparently Tyranids will "evolve" to better deal with the large prevalence of mech-lists and proliferation of vehicles in general.

No mention of fex broods, no mention of powering up Genestealers or Biovores, etc.

Basically, it's information that's vague enough and from a source I'd trust for the time being. So if that's true, then any suggestions or hopes that ideas in this thread might influence the future book, just became pipe-dreams as there is no mention in regards to most of what's been discussed so far.

Egaeus
20-08-2009, 03:15
I noticed no one made comments on it in my post so I'll mention it again.

Rather than have Spamable Fexes, why not just make a new MC for the Elite Slot? One that doesn't >> Warriors, and one that isn't a Fex.

(because spammable Fexes let's face it, will still keep you from taking warriors even if they aren't in Elites anymore)

Everyone's happy that way. You still get Godzilla, and the other choices are still viable (take into context the other things I'd do for the bugs)

I don't know that I like the idea of adding more MCs "just for the sake of it". Personally I'd almost rather they have seperate entries for Elite and Heavy 'Fexes...probably similar base statline but you could allow different options. The main problem that leaps to mind here is that if they are actually completely different options then it could become confusing.

Depending on how they price things and how they fix units, I don't necessarily think "spamable fexes" would automatically beat Warriors. This is also one of the reasons I brought up the idea of platoon-style Gaunts with Warriors as a part of the slot...then they're Troops so you'd want them...and if they're actually made a decent unit to take then they could become irresistable (at least as an option -- I don't expect them to get quite that good on the tabletop ;))

big squig
20-08-2009, 04:19
Big Squig, looks good!
Well, at least somebody read it. :D

I changed biomorphs because quite frankly, as cool as stat changing is, I was getting tired of every game against nids being a 40k version of "Guess Who (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guess_Who%3F)." I was also tired of having to not only write my army list every game, but practically write my whole damn codex just because every game all my nid's stats change. It's also not very friendly to new players.

I also re-worked some units to fit how i feel they should be represented, but I surely under-costed some things.

Justice And Rule
20-08-2009, 05:18
It's pretty good. My comments.

- I'd really just prefer for Gaunts, Gargoyles, and Hormagaunts to be broken up. I can somewhat understand Gaunts and Hormagaunts, I think that putting the Gargoyle build in troops doesn't work. Either you are giving Tyranids a DSing Troop option, or you're taking away their DS, which is bad. I don't like Gargoyles having such a low Ld since they'll generally be out-of-range of Synapse creatures, though Instinctive Behavior is different with you. Then again, it doesn't favor them much.
- Rage is certainly a much better option for Instinctive Behavior, but I think it's just better to get rid of it altogether. I don't think it can really be accurately modeled with any satisfaction for either side. If you did that, then you could give Tyranids varying Lds (Since everything is essentially 5 or 10 right now) and people would want Synapse creatures because they make their troops better.
- I agree that your Biomorph list is excellent. I like a lot of the upgrades, though there needs to be a bit of specification with Toxin Sacks (4+? 2+?). You don't have an entry for the Bonesword as well (Though I like it coming back to Tyranid Warriors). Maybe make it a Power Weapon along with some sort of Synaptic Power or something?
- Spore Cysts and Spinebacks are much better done than they currently are. They reflect what's being done better, too. Same with Adrenal Glands and Regeneration (Which is actually much better).
- The "Six-Limbed" is also kind of neat, too. But not at the expense of Flesh Hooks. Of course, for me it seems that Flesh Hooks implies a sort of "Striking Scorpian"-style attack rather than Assault Grenades, but that's just me.
- Your Lictor is what we need. It's survivable enough to take on a squad, has killing power, and can infiltrate like nothing else. Very nice.
- I'm torn on how weapons should be done. I like having a set strength, but there's something really rough about putting Devourers low for big guys. Maybe giving Carnifex (or even warriors) upgraded devourers and other light infantry weapons?

I'll say nothing of the prices because it's really just me guessing. But I like where you're moving the concept. I definitely might steal a few of your biomorph ideas, as I'm creating a list myself (But my costs will probably be way off).

Firaxin
20-08-2009, 05:34
Well, this is how I would do the next Tyranid codex.
I really like your bonesword idea, and you made Warriors troops, which is exactly what I did too. Same for Catalyst.

On the more 'fexes/but no Elites/Broods, what about keeping fexes as 1/Heavy choice but giving them the option to buy (Squeekenator's Outflanking version of) Without Number? Not that overpowered considering how survivable they are (might not even come back on till the 4th/5th turn) and their slowness.

Justice And Rule
20-08-2009, 05:57
Well, buzz along Synapse nodes is that the book is already written by the guy who did the new Guard book, it contains 4 brand new, never been in codex creatures, including one that dwarfs the Carnifex, and that Tyranids will have "special characters" in that they are creatures that survived wars and rather than being subsumed back, they are "one-off" mutants, ala Red Terror and Old One Eye in 3rd ed codex.

Eh, bigger than a Carnifex? In the book itself? It sounds like the Trygon we've heard about, but I would think tha a Trygon would be an Apocalypse-only thing ala the Baneblade. It's not like we really need something bigger than the Fex, anyways.

I do like the Special Character concept, but I'm not sure Tyranids really need four more codex creatures when they could fix some of the creatures that are particularly useless at the moment. The biovore really stands out in that respect.


Also, apparently Tyranids will "evolve" to better deal with the large prevalence of mech-lists and proliferation of vehicles in general.

I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I mean, I don't want the good old hordes to be gone.


No mention of fex broods, no mention of powering up Genestealers or Biovores, etc.

Your thing is pretty vague. I'm not sure I'd trust it just yet, considering we don't even have confirmation of when the Tyranid codex is coming out yet.


Basically, it's information that's vague enough and from a source I'd trust for the time being. So if that's true, then any suggestions or hopes that ideas in this thread might influence the future book, just became pipe-dreams as there is no mention in regards to most of what's been discussed so far.

I think the idea that we'd affect the writing of a codex is pretty unlikely, anyways.

HsojVvad
20-08-2009, 06:43
Can't remember if it was said here, but I read somewhere, that the Tyranid codex is already made and finished now. It was made by the person who did the Imperial Guard codex.

Also, we will be getting 4 new units. One of them will make the Carnifex small by comparison.

Sorry if this was said before, back to reading page 9. Yup was just beaten to it.

I also remember we will be getting characters too. Something about them surving a battle long ago, and are back now. Not shure about it. Hope it is next year, can't wait.

itcamefromthedeep
20-08-2009, 12:14
Basically, it's information that's vague enough and from a source I'd trust for the time being. So if that's true, then any suggestions or hopes that ideas in this thread might influence the future book, just became pipe-dreams as there is no mention in regards to most of what's been discussed so far.
Yeah, we're pretty much just wasting our time nerding out over dino-lobsters. That's enough for me.

Bigger than a Carnifex implies that Gee Dubya could be including another one of the beasties from Epic. The Horuspex and Malefactor are "assault spawn" that may or may not have transport capacity. The Exocrine is dedicated (and effective) ranged anti-tank. The Dactylis is artillery like a Biovore, though Spore Mines are not involved in the epic version.

big squig
20-08-2009, 14:21
It's pretty good. My comments.

- I'd really just prefer for Gaunts, Gargoyles, and Hormagaunts to be broken up. I can somewhat understand Gaunts and Hormagaunts, I think that putting the Gargoyle build in troops doesn't work. Either you are giving Tyranids a DSing Troop option, or you're taking away their DS, which is bad. I don't like Gargoyles having such a low Ld since they'll generally be out-of-range of Synapse creatures, though Instinctive Behavior is different with you. Then again, it doesn't favor them much.

I don't know. Gargoyles are pretty much just gaunts with wings. And this opens them up to actual options like gargoyles with scything talons...

- Rage is certainly a much better option for Instinctive Behavior, but I think it's just better to get rid of it altogether. I don't think it can really be accurately modeled with any satisfaction for either side. If you did that, then you could give Tyranids varying Lds (Since everything is essentially 5 or 10 right now) and people would want Synapse creatures because they make their troops better.

Yeah, Rage was just added for some flavor. Personally, I feel IB just needs to go away. To me though, I see nids much like undead in fantasy. The army really needs to crumble without synapse (genestealers excluded)

- I agree that your Biomorph list is excellent. I like a lot of the upgrades, though there needs to be a bit of specification with Toxin Sacks (4+? 2+?). You don't have an entry for the Bonesword as well (Though I like it coming back to Tyranid Warriors). Maybe make it a Power Weapon along with some sort of Synaptic Power or something?

Whoops, you're right I forgot the bonesword. And, I really like your toxin sac idea, that's really smart.

- The "Six-Limbed" is also kind of neat, too. But not at the expense of Flesh Hooks. Of course, for me it seems that Flesh Hooks implies a sort of "Striking Scorpian"-style attack rather than Assault Grenades, but that's just me.

There's seriously no point in having flesh hooks anymore. It's silly that we have to even pay point for it. But, just giving all bugs assault grenades removes strategy from the game as defending from cover is an anti-bug tactic that opponent's should be able to use. I think flesh hooks should be one of those minor cool things that are in the fluff but don't have rules...like purity seals.

- I'm torn on how weapons should be done. I like having a set strength, but there's something really rough about putting Devourers low for big guys. Maybe giving Carnifex (or even warriors) upgraded devourers and other light infantry weapons?

I'm torn too and considering going back to the old way or coming up with some other system.

My reactions to you comments above. Thanks for the feedback.

Geep
20-08-2009, 14:21
I noticed recently in the rear of the Apocalypse book, in a drawing with tyranids assaulting an imperial city, there's a completely new burrowing creature of some sort (not a Trygon). I found it odd as all other creatures in the drawing are available as models (either normally or through Forge World). It's probably nothing, but why not be hopeful?

I like the guard book- it's a nice mix of old and new- hopefully the Tyranid one works out just as well.

HsojVvad
20-08-2009, 17:50
I noticed recently in the rear of the Apocalypse book, in a drawing with tyranids assaulting an imperial city, there's a completely new burrowing creature of some sort (not a Trygon). I found it odd as all other creatures in the drawing are available as models (either normally or through Forge World). It's probably nothing, but why not be hopeful?



Well someone at GW, forget who said they are putting hints and easter eggs in new edtions of books for what is up and coming. One of them was a plastic Tygron in Apocalypse, and if you see anything new about Necrons in any codex or what not, might possibly end up in the new necron codex.

So Geep noticing a new creature burrowing, in Apocalypse that could be one of the new Tyranid creatures. So keep your eyes peeled.

I don't have the new Guard codex, I think somone said that there is a special rule for Guard players agains Monstorous creatures, or something like that, but can't be used because it can't be used yet? This might be in the new Tyranid codex if anyone can figure it out. Can anyone explain this?

PhalanxLord
20-08-2009, 19:25
I don't have the new Guard codex, I think somone said that there is a special rule for Guard players agains Monstorous creatures, or something like that, but can't be used because it can't be used yet? This might be in the new Tyranid codex if anyone can figure it out. Can anyone explain this?

That would be the order, Bring it Down. It twin links weapons shot at MCs or vehicles. Considering all the utility it has (especially with all this mech around) I don't think its very likely it was added due to a new nids army, especially since its already so good against current nids, daemons, SpaM, other IG, DE, Eldar, pretty much every army out there as long as it has MCs or vehicles.

Max Jet
20-08-2009, 19:39
I noticed no one made comments on it in my post so I'll mention it again.

Rather than have Spamable Fexes, why not just make a new MC for the Elite Slot? One that doesn't >> Warriors, and one that isn't a Fex.

(because spammable Fexes let's face it, will still keep you from taking warriors even if they aren't in Elites anymore)

Everyone's happy that way. You still get Godzilla, and the other choices are still viable (take into context the other things I'd do for the bugs)

If I wouldn't allready know that there are 0-3 Carnifices Brood in the new Codex I would have screamed "YOU JUST FOUND THE THIRD SPECIES IN THE NEW CODEX!" So what is the fourth? XD

Bolter Bait
20-08-2009, 20:07
If I wouldn't allready know that there are 0-3 Carnifices Brood in the new Codex I would have screamed "YOU JUST FOUND THE THIRD SPECIES IN THE NEW CODEX!" So what is the fourth? XD

Carnifex Brood.
Brood of Carnifexes
Some broods of Carnifex.

Sorry, sorry, had to be done. Seeing Carnifexi/Carnifices/codicies/etc make me stabby.

Vepr
20-08-2009, 20:37
I am not sure if I am excited or worried that the same guy that did the IG codex re-wrote Tyranids. On one hand I like the IG codex but hopefully he can step away from that and we do not end up with orders and tyrant guard as vox. I don't like the Idea of MC broods at the moment.

Max Jet
20-08-2009, 20:58
Sorry, sorry, had to be done. Seeing Carnifexi/Carnifices/codicies/etc make me stabby.

but but... it's latin.. and it's... correct..


I am not sure if I am excited or worried that the same guy that did the IG codex re-wrote Tyranids. On one hand I like the IG codex but hopefully he can step away from that and we do not end up with orders and tyrant guard as vox. I don't like the Idea of MC broods at the moment.

Well.. partly worried, partly satisfied. Except for the Ogryn and conscript treatement the Imperial Guard Codex offers widely different and exciting list, is balanced and still competitive. It offers unique and interesting systems as well as units. The only thing I fear is the same carelessnes when approaching independent characters (you HAVE to include them for certain list builds) and the allready mentioned brood treatment. A Carnifex is not a Leman Russ! A Brood is not a squadron. But I think this will be needed as the Heavy support slot will now be heavily competed by the Trigon, perhaps the Biovore (Well most certainly as he gets a new model... they will also try to sell it well) and possibly even other Creatures. You won't see more Carnifices (HAAA!) now then before, although the army as a whole certainly will be called Codex Cheddar until the next one comes out. I can assure you that (although I wanted to smack everyone calling the guard overpowered)

Vepr
20-08-2009, 21:09
but but... it's latin.. and it's... correct..



Well.. partly worried, partly satisfied. Except for the Ogryn and conscript treatement the Imperial Guard Codex offers widely different and exciting list, is balanced and still competitive. It offers unique and interesting systems as well as units. The only thing I fear is the same carelessnes when approaching independent characters (you HAVE to include them for certain list builds) and the allready mentioned brood treatment. A Carnifex is not a Leman Russ! A Brood is not a squadron. But I think this will be needed as the Heavy support slot will now be heavily competed by the Trigon, perhaps the Biovore (Well most certainly as he gets a new model... they will also try to sell it well) and possibly even other Creatures. You won't see more Carnifices (HAAA!) now then before, although the army as a whole certainly will be called Codex Cheddar until the next one comes out. I can assure you that (although I wanted to smack everyone calling the guard overpowered)

Yeah the cries of cheese are unfortunately inevitable when ever a new codex comes out. I will just be happy if the horde is viable again while still allowing for other builds that can compete. :)

marv335
20-08-2009, 21:17
frankly if the carnifex broods with differently equipped 'fexes comes to pass the cries will be entirely justified.

Max Jet
20-08-2009, 21:50
Hm I am pretty sure they will be equipped exactly the same. Furthermore they have to stay within 2 inches and there has to be another restriction....

Dreachon
20-08-2009, 21:58
Hm I am pretty sure they will be equipped exactly the same. Furthermore they have to stay within 2 inches and there has to be another restriction....

Besides the fact that the brood is gonna swallow a lot of points, minimum is over 300 pts.

marv335
20-08-2009, 22:01
300 very, very, hard to kill points

Max Jet
20-08-2009, 22:16
That's why I am sure I have missed something.. some restriction...
but anything besides that can only be a guess. I mean.. I would instantly take 9 Carnifices with only scything talons or better even rending claws and nothing else.. just as a moving wall.

Egaeus
20-08-2009, 23:31
That's why I am sure I have missed something.. some restriction...
but anything besides that can only be a guess. I mean.. I would instantly take 9 Carnifices with only scything talons or better even rending claws and nothing else.. just as a moving wall.

Well we have no idea on unit costs yet...what if this "basic build" runs 200 points per 'Fex? Sure they'll still be tough but 600 points for a single brood (assuming 3 max) and 1800 for 9...not sure if you could squeeze enough Troops and an HQ to make a 2000 point list at that point. Note I have no idea on the actual cost, just suggesting that there are ways to make it work.

Another restriction is that the brood has to fire at the same target, assuming you still have decent shooting 'fexes...I'd probably prefer 3 seperate 'Fexes as opposed to a single brood of 3. Of course this depends on what they do to make the other HS options more attractive.

Max Jet
21-08-2009, 00:19
I think the Fex brood somehow sounds good on the paper but isn't all that well in reality

Vepr
21-08-2009, 01:10
If they do broods of fex's I imagine they would put some hefty restrictions on them which worries me somewhat also. It seems in every dex there are units that go from bad to good and good to bad. I hope they do not turn the carnifex into the current biovore.

-IronWarrior-
21-08-2009, 04:06
I think the Nidzilla, 2 Tyrants, 6 Carnifex setup is one of the most competitive lists/armies in the game at the moment.

Couple it with a tide of leaping gaunts to tie up infantry and it's downright brutal.

itcamefromthedeep
21-08-2009, 04:09
frankly if the carnifex broods with differently equipped 'fexes comes to pass the cries will be entirely justified.
It all depends on the price. Remember the discussions from back before the Guard army came out? The LR Executioner with plasma sponsons and lascannon was supposed to be the ultra-broken power house of the new metagame. Then I mentioned "Well, what if that tank costs 250pts?" And you know what, it turned out to be about 250pts, and not so broken after all.

If a 'Fex starts at 200pts with current stats, the unit will still be junk regardless of whether or not they can abuse wound allocation. Having said that, if you just took the current 'Fex entry and made the brood size 1-3 with variable weapons, then yeah that would be pretty nuts.

EDIT:

I think the Nidzilla, 2 Tyrants, 6 Carnifex setup is one of the most competitive lists/armies in the game at the moment.
That setup lacks the synapse coverage to handle a lot of Gaunts. With a Flyrant advancing fast and a walking Devil-Tyrant just behind, there's no synapse to cover Gaunts in the deployment zone. That leaves Genestealers playing defense (inefficient to say the least). This situation has led a lot of Tyranid players to drop a Carnifex or two in favor of Warriors or Zoanthropes to babysit the Gaunts holding the home turf.

The 8 MC list is not the "optimal" Tyranid list of 5th edition. I repeat, classic Nidzilla isn't impressive in 5th edition. Once more for the record, the full 8 monstrous creatures is not the most powerful Tyranid list in the current metagame.


Couple it with a tide of leaping gaunts to tie up infantry and it's downright brutal.You can't afford a tide of leaping Gaunts, regardless of how many monstrous creatures you field. Hormagaunts run you the better part of a Marine. Hormagaunts are not cheap.