PDA

View Full Version : Imperial guard veteran Fluff



252nd Fire Dragoon
12-08-2009, 07:21
Aloha,
Hey how many people actually follow the IG veteran fluff? I mean, it seems everyone has super regiments now of all veterans, unlike the rest of us who do 0-1 squads of veterans for fluff sakes. Anyone else agree that it seems a little bleh for there to be super regiments of veterans?

EmperorEternalXIX
12-08-2009, 07:27
On behalf of all the space marine players, I think it is pretty safe to say that we are all annoyed by the prevalence of BS4 super troops in Guard armies.

One of the reasons we have limits of weaponry is the fact that we have 3+ armor and BS4. But all of that goes out the window for the guard. 3 weapons? Sure! Take a demo charge and Harkin while you're at it! :\

A lot of people are going to storm in here and insist it's fluffy and perfectly legitimate and reasonable to have veteran regiments. And it is. But it is still pretty stupid for them to be a troops choice and so easily accessible (i.e. no special character or unique list setup required).

They should have been Elites, as it is now it is way too easy to field that many BS4 special weapons that can almost always fire with impunity (thanks to the Chimera having a pickup truck bed mounted on the back of it now...).

trapper
12-08-2009, 07:27
I only have one unit of veterans myself, but why not have a 'super regiment of veterans'? The command squad (of veterans) and then the normal vetran squads plus tanks makes a solid force. Why not have an elite platoon go in on important missions. Think of it like sending in a platoon of Recon marines or some such (which are used in the Iraq war). So no, if everyone did it then it wouldn't be fluffy, but for the people who do do it I dont see a major fluf problem. Its not that the entire army is veterans, just the ones on that table.

shabbadoo
12-08-2009, 07:31
I could care less. The option is in there to field the well known elite IG regiments(Bluebloods ,etc.). If you see them a lot, well, that just means you get to kill them a lot. :D

Signal
12-08-2009, 07:31
Short answer: No. :rolleyes:

Long answer: Speaking in a strictly fluffy sense, if there are already Chapters and Legions full of 8-foot tall superhumans who can crush your skull with their fists, spit acid, have two hearts, photographic memory, live for hundreds upon thousands of years, run around in tank armor, and are issued fully automatic miniature rocket launchers...

...Guard Companies with a few dozen men who can shoot a bit better than average isn't that much of a stretch. ;)

Sgt. Straker
12-08-2009, 07:34
I don't see it as any worse then someone fielding an actual Chapter Master like Calgar or Vulcan in a battle.

I always think of the tabletop as a smaller, integral part of a larger war going on in the peripheral. In this way, 30 veterans being in one spot or Guillman and a handful of tactical squads are really just a focused push on a critical strategic point or formative attack on their leader.

Nicha11
12-08-2009, 07:45
But it is still pretty stupid for them to be a troops choice and so easily accessible (i.e. no special character or unique list setup required)

So Guard players should have to re-work their whole list to field Bs4 troops?

Eldar field Bs4 Troops.
CSM and SM field nothing but BS4 troops.
SOB field Bs4 Troops.
Demon Hunters field BS4 troops.
Dark Eldar field BS4 troops.
Necrons field BS4 troops.

Kriegfreak
12-08-2009, 07:46
Aloha,
Hey how many people actually follow the IG veteran fluff? I mean, it seems everyone has super regiments now of all veterans, unlike the rest of us who do 0-1 squads of veterans for fluff sakes. Anyone else agree that it seems a little bleh for there to be super regiments of veterans?

I generally run veteran heavy forces mainly because of the amount of models I have at my disposal. And the current price for guardsmen I really don't blame anyone for doing the same, though it certainly would be nice to field larger numbers of troops. That said, the typical infantry horde has been over-done for years now, its nice to have a chance to use a faster-moving elite infantry type force supported by a tank or two. It works nice, its certainly beatable on the table top, and honestly - I feel like by opponents appreciate a guard army that doesn't just sit back and fire the entire game.

BS4 argument isn't to strong anyways, orders can make those heavy weapons platoons with BS3 extremely deadly vs tanks/monstrous creatures assuming you run with a force like that.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-08-2009, 07:59
So Guard players should have to re-work their whole list to field Bs4 troops?

Eldar field Bs4 Troops.
CSM and SM field nothing but BS4 troops.
SOB field Bs4 Troops.
Demon Hunters field BS4 troops.
Dark Eldar field BS4 troops.
Necrons field BS4 troops.

They also all field less than half as many as you can, and almost none of them can be armed comparably or sit in chimeras that render their few weak points irrelevant like the vets can.

I'm not an advocate of taking the BS4 away or whatever you might be thinking. I just think it's pretty silly that the rulebook tells us of a time when humanity is on the losing end of the ongoing war for the galaxy, and yet, humanity's armies who are primarily victorious through attrition and superior numbers seem to now be winning battle after battle by having some of the most prodigious armories and marksmanship in the galaxy...

The Leman Russ lumbering behemoth rule? The endless tank variants? The "this was meant for Apocalypse but we want to sell them" units like the Valkyrie and the Deathstrike or the Manticore? The lists that realistically field well over a dozen tanks? Orders that improve the troops' performance? I can accept all of this, because it is all in line with long-standing guard fluff, and I'm even glad that the guard got an army list that well represents their fluff. But there is one thing that the fluff does not have in abundance, and that is a series of epic Rambo soldiers in small numbers winning the day.

And why shouldn't it be annoying? That particular gimmick is supposed to be the exclusive province of the space marines.

Cane
12-08-2009, 08:00
Having a diverse range of troop choices including veterans makes sense from a 'fluff' and gameplay perspective. In a universe where billions of guardsmen are readily sacrificed; there are a ton of different armies and missions that they're tooled for --- fluff is also constantly changing and its malleable especially since the old guard fluff is nothing to write home about. Units like Vets, Penal Legion, Valks are all easily justifiable in a fluff context since these options are some of the factors that make the IG a deadly force in 40k.

Not to mention it allows players to field a battleforce as a stand-alone army as opposed to the days where you had to take TWO platoons consisting of at least 25 guardsmen each; although like most battleforces its a relatively weak list.

Also worth noting that the new penal legion troop choice isn't getting any love in this 'fluff' regard. And regiments that consist mainly of veterans doesn't seem like a super regiment especially since we're only fielding a skirmish level amount of troops. Not to mention that veteran or not they're still toughness 3 monkeihs with flashlights.

Yea I sound defensive but the troops aspect is one of the best changes to the Guard 'dex; it was incredibly boring and unwieldy to have to field at least 50 much less dynamic models in order to fulfill just the troops requirement.

Signal
12-08-2009, 08:36
I'm not an advocate of taking the BS4 away or whatever you might be thinking. I just think it's pretty silly that the rulebook tells us of a time when humanity is on the losing end of the ongoing war for the galaxy, and yet, humanity's armies who are primarily victorious through attrition and superior numbers seem to now be winning battle after battle by having some of the most prodigious armories and marksmanship in the galaxy...

What happens on the table top has always been removed from what goes on in the fluff. Always has been, always will be. In this particular case, the Imperial Guard still wins most of its battles through attrition and superior numbers - because the fluff says so. The players who use Veteran-heavy companies on the table top are just playing one of the few examples of elite companies that actually exist in the Guard; just like how players who play any kind of Marine army are playing one of the few examples of Marines that exist at all.


The Leman Russ lumbering behemoth rule? The endless tank variants? The "this was meant for Apocalypse but we want to sell them" units like the Valkyrie and the Deathstrike or the Manticore? The lists that realistically field well over a dozen tanks? Orders that improve the troops' performance? I can accept all of this, because it is all in line with long-standing guard fluff, and I'm even glad that the guard got an army list that well represents their fluff. But there is one thing that the fluff does not have in abundance, and that is a series of epic Rambo soldiers in small numbers winning the day.

And why shouldn't it be annoying? That particular gimmick is supposed to be the exclusive province of the space marines.

So what do you think about the Gaunt's Ghosts series of novels? ;)

ichbala
12-08-2009, 09:12
So Guard players should have to re-work their whole list to field Bs4 troops?

Eldar field Bs4 Troops.
CSM and SM field nothing but BS4 troops.
SOB field Bs4 Troops.
Demon Hunters field BS4 troops.
Dark Eldar field BS4 troops.
Necrons field BS4 troops.

Can we re-work our list so Orks get BS4 :D:D:D:D:D:D

Explodingboy
12-08-2009, 09:18
I have to say that I don't think the problem really comes from the Veterans being a troop choice. Especially with the having lots of Elite choices already to compete for limited space.

I think the problem comes with the Chimeras new firepoint.. I mean it's a nice change compared to the side lasguns.. but it's too easy for it to get out of hand.

Brother Alexos
12-08-2009, 09:27
I find it REALLY annoying, because regiments are supposed to be Veterans for a strong core and the more green units doing the heavier lifting.

Enfid
12-08-2009, 09:27
I think effort and cost is the main issue.

Low number of elite soldiers cost less money, need less time to assemble/paint, and are more killy than normal Guardsmen. From a logical hobby perspective, they are the obvious choice. Kinda the same reasons why marines are the most played armies. So several killy veterans plus several tanks for the army with some supporting elements. Much easier to make than minimum 50 guardsmen.

Though personally, I feel there is much satisfaction to be had from playing horde armies. As someone once said, there is some kind of joy to be gained from having to remove 20 models a turn and feel like it did nothing to his army.

ashc
12-08-2009, 11:32
Fluff is whatever you make of it.

If tabletop represented background, GW would be putting a limit on Space Marine players, because you aren't meant to see that many around, and traitor guard would be one of the main armies :rolleyes:

Badger[Fr]
12-08-2009, 11:41
While Veterans are a little too much "flavour of the month" for my liking, the background do indeed mention such armies, be it Cadian Grenadiers or Vostroyans.

Damned, even the old 2nd Edition featured awesome Veteran skills.

Bunnahabhain
12-08-2009, 12:46
That squad of veterans are the battered remnants of a platoon. Now, how many games do you see platoons being reduced to a handful of men- just most of the time, or more often?

Also, please remember that it was very easy to build an almost entirely BS4 force from the last codex- Veterans and Grenadiers. They too had lots of special weapons, but I don't remember the endless complaints about them, even with FREE deep strike for half the army.

If you want a curious mismatch between background and tabletop with regard to veterans, than look at the armour. How come it's so easy to be BS4 with a lasgun, but no tank gunners ever live long enough to get that good?

It should have been an option for one tank per squadron- the squadron commander is an experinced veteran; he and his crew are BS4. I know it's treading on the toes of Pask a bit, but there should be some some stepping stone between Basic crew, and best Tank ace in the warzone...

jason_sation
12-08-2009, 13:37
I still have my list set up with Platoons. I do think the Vet as troops option was a godsend for those just starting the army though, with the cost of the Guardsmen now (money wise). I like the "horde of average joes" aspect of the army, that's what attracted me to the army to begin with. I do wonder about the ability to field THAT many special weapons in a vet squad though. It might make them a bit too attractive!

DaSpaceAsians
12-08-2009, 13:41
I only field Veterans in small games but otherwise I use Infantry Platoons simply because I feel that I'm lacking manpower.

SPYDER68
12-08-2009, 14:25
in 2k points.. i run 5 squads of vets, and usually 1 platoon...

My force is an "elite strike force" :P

Can justify it anyway you want.

EmperorEternalXIX
14-08-2009, 01:23
They too had lots of special weapons, but I don't remember the endless complaints about them, even with FREE deep strike for half the army. I'd rather have them deep strike with 2 or 3 weapons, then be vulnerable to fire and in the open, then to be firing out of the back of a Chimera with total impunity.

The problem is probably more the Chimera then the vets themselves. The Chimera got its price cut in half and those squads can put out an insane amount of BS4 fire from the back. Add Harker and a heavy weapon and you are talking about 2 heavies and 3 specials firing out before the damn tank even starts shooting its own weapons.

You can also now field 50 vets (with a much reduced point cost I think) and then supplement them with a massive platoon of joe-nobodies now to soak up the bullets, too.

Biggest fault with them is definitely the tank though. From the back of that tank, their weaknesses are rendered irrelevant (Toughness and Saves don't matter till the tank blows up). They might as well be Space Marines.

Lord Merlin
14-08-2009, 01:43
My IG army is actually modeled on modern special forces task forces like Task Force Ranger(Of Blackhawk Down fame). Depending on the mission I take either two decent sized or one big infantry platoon and then however squads of vets I think I'll need. This is how SF task forces are organized. Large numbers of inferior troops to provide fire support and a numerical 'padding' to the rock hard special forces. I add more fluff factor when I throw in an inquisitor and retinue plus an assassin or ISTs to represent the TF being commanded for a special mission by the inquisitor. I think that this is an appropriately fluffy as well as actually somewhat competitive. And tanks.

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 01:50
I've been designing a veteran only IG regiment. Fluffwise, the army comes from a world that has just recently reestablished contact with the Imperium after 50-100 years of silence. The planet suffered from a plague that wiped out 99.9% of the female population. Civilization itself broke down upon the planet as nations and fiefdoms within the planet broke down and attacked each other in attempts to capture the remaining women. Full nuclear strikes were used and many areas destroyed, although quarantine zones were not hit(too few women around to risk any more). The survivors got their hands on nuclear environment proof tanks and formed into separate gangs fighting for each others women. One man formed a gang rebuilding much of the planet through military might as his gang stormed across the continent to the quarantine zone to be reunited with their women. In the end, the battle lord restored civilization and began rebuilding. Shortly after the birth of his 3rd son the Imperium returned, praised the man for his righteous might in restoring an Imperial planet. A tithe of veteran guardsmen and tank pilots was offered as a show of loyalty to the Imperium. Women from neighboring systems/hive worlds are being shipped to this planet for one reason or another.

So the regiment is smaller in number but made up of veteran soldiers who have fought across the wasteland of their own planet. Sounds like a good enough reason for their to be so few to me. Eventually, as I paint more and more guards this may turn into the 2nd founding of the planet and the next guard regiment being slightly larger.

Xenobane
14-08-2009, 01:53
That squad of veterans are the battered remnants of a platoon. Now, how many games do you see platoons being reduced to a handful of men- just most of the time, or more often?

Also, please remember that it was very easy to build an almost entirely BS4 force from the last codex- Veterans and Grenadiers. They too had lots of special weapons, but I don't remember the endless complaints about them, even with FREE deep strike for half the army.

If you want a curious mismatch between background and tabletop with regard to veterans, than look at the armour. How come it's so easy to be BS4 with a lasgun, but no tank gunners ever live long enough to get that good?

It should have been an option for one tank per squadron- the squadron commander is an experinced veteran; he and his crew are BS4. I know it's treading on the toes of Pask a bit, but there should be some some stepping stone between Basic crew, and best Tank ace in the warzone...

Excellent post Bunnahabhain. Agreed on all counts.

The table-top game is absolutely full of various things that are unusual in the fluff. If you complain about one, you should be complaining about them all (and that would just be exhausting).

EmperorEternalXIX
14-08-2009, 05:00
I also complain about why Chaos has access to more weapons and armor in the eye of terror then the rest of the imperium, if that helps. Hehe.

I don't have a problem with guard regiments being made up of veterans. It is just frustrating that up where I live, there are a ton of guard players happily playing like they are the space marines, charging lines with a crowd of epically effective offensive troops, while I and the other SM players find ourself making tactical decisions to win the day that involve passing thoughts like "Hmm should I use my special rule to run away, I might not make it far enough and might get run off the board." Not that the guard or other armies don't have days like that or anything... it's just a little depressing, seeing guardsmen do stuff on the table that my guys only do in the fluff. Pretty awkward. I win many games by using combat tactics to retreat often and by playing my army as though it is fragile and helpless; not really why I started playing the space marines, you know? The only guys in the list who feel like the fluff SM are those assault terminators everyone hates so much, hehe.

My main gripe isn't the lists or the vets themselves as much as the fact every guard player is using them now. Literally, in the case of my area. And why wouldn't you? You'd be a fool not to. And that is what bugs me, really. As an SM player I have often gotten villified about "no brainer" choices and have had to watch while GW gets bashed for me having things like the Land Speeder Storm or Vulkan (who I don't use, btw). Nobody seems to have a problem with all the 3xLRBT/mechvets lists out there, though. Just frustrating, is all.

Bottom line is I like seeing a variety of army types come out of each codex. I really dislike that almost every guard army I come across uses this same excessive build; sure it's not against the fluff to haev a vet regiment, but what about when like 90% of the regiments you encounter are bursting at the seems with veterans? It just seems silly, you know? Just as silly to me as the fact that the Salamanders chapter appears to be the most prodigious one in the galaxy, and that they are inspired to have better weaponry by being led by a guy who isn't even a ranking member of their companies. :\

I dunno, I just wish there was more variety. Probably a local thing more than anything. There is nothing more disappointing than having a bunch of guys who play the same army all using the same list...

havoc3149
14-08-2009, 05:17
Well you space marines already have BS4 as well as WS4 and T4 and strength 4 and better leadership and you have better support and armorsaves and the list goes on and on, while we just get the same trooper only with BS4 and we dont even get armor saves from your bolters. And thats just YOUR troops, Im not even gonna bring in what you get for elites. So why should we field sacrifical guardmen like units as elites when you already can crush them easily.

And honestly, just because "Oh guardsman have to be sent in hoards and die and stuff, thats how the fluff SHOULD be" , in comparison to what the fluff has actually demonstrated to the contrary (look at catchans, cadians, and all the elite regiments). Imposed opinions should not affect the creative army list choices that IG players, or any player in fact, should have.

Skyrir
14-08-2009, 06:20
I've been designing a veteran only IG regiment. Fluffwise, the army comes from a world that has just recently reestablished contact with the Imperium after 50-100 years of silence. The planet suffered from a plague that wiped out 99.9% of the female population. Civilization itself broke down upon the planet as nations and fiefdoms within the planet broke down and attacked each other in attempts to capture the remaining women. Full nuclear strikes were used and many areas destroyed, although quarantine zones were not hit(too few women around to risk any more). The survivors got their hands on nuclear environment proof tanks and formed into separate gangs fighting for each others women. One man formed a gang rebuilding much of the planet through military might as his gang stormed across the continent to the quarantine zone to be reunited with their women. In the end, the battle lord restored civilization and began rebuilding. Shortly after the birth of his 3rd son the Imperium returned, praised the man for his righteous might in restoring an Imperial planet. A tithe of veteran guardsmen and tank pilots was offered as a show of loyalty to the Imperium. Women from neighboring systems/hive worlds are being shipped to this planet for one reason or another.

So the regiment is smaller in number but made up of veteran soldiers who have fought across the wasteland of their own planet. Sounds like a good enough reason for their to be so few to me. Eventually, as I paint more and more guards this may turn into the 2nd founding of the planet and the next guard regiment being slightly larger.

That's very creative............ OH NO WAIT THAT'S BATTLE TANKS GLOBAL ASSAULT FOR N64!!! THOUGHT YOU COULD GET THAT PAST ME DIDN'T YOU, YOU SNEAKY BASTARD!!!

You even had the gall to steal the title 'Battle Lord'......... Shameful.

Lol jk it's still a plausible setting to build IG off of.

EmperorEternalXIX
14-08-2009, 06:20
Havoc, that is sort of my point. It's not very creative to play the exact same style of army list as everyone else.

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 06:24
That's very creative............ OH NO WAIT THAT'S BATTLE TANKS GLOBAL ASSAULT FOR N64!!! THOUGHT YOU COULD GET THAT PAST ME DIDN'T YOU, YOU SNEAKY BASTARD!!!

You even had the gall to steal the title 'Battle Lord'......... Shameful.

Lol jk it's still a plausible setting to build IG off of.

Dude that game was AWESOME. My guard army will be an homage to it. Griffin Spade was a badass and he would have made a most excellent servant of the Emperor.

Skyrir
14-08-2009, 06:34
Dude that game was AWESOME. My guard army will be an homage to it. Griffin Spade was a badass and he would have made a most excellent servant of the Emperor.

Yes, it was good for its time. So you're NOT going to be fielding a veteran spam army then? Also, will the BTGA thing just be thematic, or are you gonna use IG tanks that correspond to BTGA tanks?

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 06:40
Global Assault was the second game in the series btw and wasn't nearly as good as the first storyline-wise. If/when I get the resources to do it, I would like to do it with mostly squads of Leman Russ's. I hear that thats not competitive, but like I said its more of a long term thing. I won't start on this until I decide exactly how I'm going to paint/model the troops though and before I start that I need to finish painting 2 squads of BA assault marines, some banners, Dante, Corbulo, a rhino, and a drop pod. So like I said, the list would probably look something to the effect of:
hq: company command squad
troops: 2x vet squad
HS: Leman Russ spam

I'm considering saving this storyline for a planetary empires game, but like I said, this is something far off.

Solar_Eclipse
14-08-2009, 06:57
Havoc, that is sort of my point. It's not very creative to play the exact same style of army list as everyone else.

There are only a limited amount of permutations you can get with a codex while staying in the 'effective' territory.

Veterans are average. Run of the Mill, not incredibly powerful at all.

Veterans have the potential to be awesome, thats it, potential.

Its also a Guard unit taking up an entire Troops slot on its own, which sucks alot of the time.

I really dont get what you want. Marines can play however they want to play, Guard should be able to aswell.

EmperorEternalXIX
14-08-2009, 07:32
But that is sort of my point, Solar. The best way is to max out veterans and fill the rest with chumps to screen them. In my area the guard players are frothing at the mouth to use these guys and every IG player finds their permutation of the mechanized veterans list simply brilliant and original (which depresses me deeply, almost as much as the Vulkan bandwagoners who were all going "No I always thought the Salamanders fluff was the best" as all their ultramarines sit in a bucket of simple green in the next room).

As I've said a million times, as long as those guys are shooting out of the back of a chimera their T and Str and Saves are irrelevant, only their BS4 comes into play and it stays strictly offensive till the tank blows up. Not that hard, of course, but the point is, I think not too many people are going to field penal legionnaires or conscripts instead of veterans. It is limiting to guard players, in a backwards way. Sure, it's a beneficial kind of pigeon-holing, but it's still kind of a hurdle for most people (kind of like the SM assault terminators...to not use them in a list is a horrid idea).

decker_cky
14-08-2009, 08:02
Ignoring the all encompassing (and legitimate) veteran platoon reasoning, veteran are very established.

Current model ranges for Imperial Guard:

Cadian: Platoons primarily, but they have grenadiers which are veterans. For a small engagement, using grenadiers could make sense or be necessary.

Catachan: Otherwise known as deathworld veterans. Completely fluffy.

Vostroyan: Carapace armour, and better weaponry. They got a slight upgrade, but carapace veterans are +0.5 BS on what they were in the previous codex.

Tallarn: Largely covered by infantry platoons, but the elite veterans laying a trap makes sense. Reconaissance veterans better represent the light infantry that tallarn are. Would prefer if they kept the option to infiltrate/outflank (without special character) though. :(

Tanith: Reconnaissance veterans were written for this (as well as the catachans).

Valhallans: Ultimate meat grinder. I could easily see the best of the best quickly joining together from situations like in the novel 15 hours. Steel legion and mordian could easily come about from the same situation.

But seriously a considerable amount of the famous guard regiments are veterans. It makes sense and is 100% fluffy. Argue that it's unbalanced if you feel like it, but the choices are fluffy.

Astrotrain
14-08-2009, 08:11
So all guard armies should be waves of low skill personnel that have to be swept off the broad with a broom and dustpan when facing marines?

guard vets still have to pay for carapace for a higher price than the last codex and pay for special weapons at a higher base cost than marines,also stormtroopers have lost all usefulness in their current incarnation.

Solar_Eclipse
14-08-2009, 08:25
But that is sort of my point, Solar. The best way is to max out veterans and fill the rest with chumps to screen them. In my area the guard players are frothing at the mouth to use these guys and every IG player finds their permutation of the mechanized veterans list simply brilliant and original (which depresses me deeply, almost as much as the Vulkan bandwagoners who were all going "No I always thought the Salamanders fluff was the best" as all their ultramarines sit in a bucket of simple green in the next room).


Which is silly, since Mechanised platoons are infinately Nastier than Veteran armies.

In 2000 points i made a list with 9 Chimeras, 2 Hellhounds, 2 Vendettas and 5 russes of Variant types.

Veterans would not be able to do this, watering down the army.

Also, I use 2 Units of Vets in my Krieg army, Engineers Footslogging with the rest of my army suddenly throwing a Demo Charge when enemies get close.

Veterans are fluffy, Marines are meant to be horribly restricted in their weapon and unit choice, its part of their background.

EmperorEternalXIX
14-08-2009, 08:50
I agree, though the background for the marines seemed to me to be an excuse to render us "fair."

I suppose you are right that there are many guard regiments that are veterans, but I still find it very hard to believe that there are that many guardsmen who shoot as well as and are better equipped than a 500-year-old blood angel tactical squad that has done nothing but wage hellish war with every waking breath for several lifetimes. But I guess that is a byproduct of the system itself.

I don't mind, I just never saw the guard as particularly heroic or being such a stand up frontal force.

That list sounds horrifying to face, I'm almost glad everyone around my area is playing the full veteran list...

Murphy's law
14-08-2009, 08:57
There is nothing wrong with All-veteran-guard-army's. Nothing at all.

Solar_Eclipse
14-08-2009, 09:16
I suppose you are right that there are many guard regiments that are veterans, but I still find it very hard to believe that there are that many guardsmen who shoot as well as and are better equipped than a 500-year-old blood angel tactical squad that has done nothing but wage hellish war with every waking breath for several lifetimes. But I guess that is a byproduct of the system itself.


I dont see why not.

Theres a limit to how well you can shoot with the weapons they get.

Bolters are prone to jam and require alot of maintenance and training to use effectively, Lasguns and Shotguns are simple and accurate weapons which require a minimum of fine tuning.

That Blood Angels Squad has also been fighting many different ways than veterans do.



I don't mind, I just never saw the guard as particularly heroic or being such a stand up frontal force.

This is where i disagree, i think Guard should be one of the most horrific armies to face when across the table. Other armies need to either be Numerous and Tough (Orks) Numerous and Fast (Nids) or able to use varying forms of manouvrability to outmanouvre the guard (Most other armies).

oh well.

mattschuur
14-08-2009, 09:32
My All Vet force is the 87/34/95/105 Cadian "Hodges" (for Hodge Podge). Of course i also have 2k of legitimate Cadians with 2 full Infantry platoons as well as a 1,500 old catachan army of nothing but infantry squads and heavy weapons teams. I like variety and with vets as troops it allows for a lot more variety. Seriously, has all vets really dominated leagues or tourneys? I'm more afraid of 2 squadrons of 2 leman russes and a 3 griffon squadron.

matt schuur

Dark Apostle197
14-08-2009, 10:32
By the way, those who advocate the meat grinder fluff:

So, regiment goes and get sent to warzone. War ends. The 60 vets are the ones that surived, and are pure win.

Badger[Fr]
14-08-2009, 10:35
So, regiment goes and get sent to warzone. War ends. The 60 vets are the ones that surived, and a pure win.
Guess what? That's what's written in the curent IG Codex. Hate it or like it, but Veteran armies are indeed fluffy. Mechanized Veterans, on the other hand...

Franlky, Veteran armies make far more sense fluffwise than Sternguard spam, Nob Bikers, or the lack of guardians in most Eldar armies. Not to mention the countless Space Marines armies led by Carneus Malgar, Vulstan He'Kan, or Pablo Kantor...

Col. Frost
14-08-2009, 13:19
Veterans may have BS4 and have access to an entire armoury of weaponry, but at they still die as quickly as a normal guardsman.

Murphy's law
14-08-2009, 13:32
Complaining about veterans being troops is nothing more then pure wining.
The only differences are that 10 models are 1 troopschoice(a cheap way to get a legal FOC), have BS4 and have more acces to special weapons and a few very expensive doctrines.
They have no combat skills whatsoever, have bad armour and cost a lot more then regular guardsmen if you give them the right equipment.
You have a maximum of 60 guardsmen if you play full veterans. That means no acces to conscripts, platoons and heavy weapon teams. You have a handfull of men who need to do the job. They need the right equipment for that and even then, it will be a struggle.
Agreed, 60 vets in 6 chimera's can be nasty and maybe it isn't that fluffy, but there are tons of worse/overpowered units in the game.
How difficult is it to destroy chimera's with shooting or in combat anyway?...
People who complain about imperial guard veterans play the wrong game.

Bunnahabhain
14-08-2009, 13:49
And those complaining about the underpriced chimeras the veterans and other are in tend to be making full use of their 35pt Rhinos...

Chimeras are now good, but not ridiculously over the top. They're still armour 10 on most sides, have one hatch at the back, and have to choose between moving, and using those weapons they've paid for.

I have 3-4 squads of veterans modelled up, and 3-4 standard platoons, depending on what size I run them at. If you're going to have a daft amount of Guard, then you should be able to run most options from the codex....

Shrapnel
14-08-2009, 16:16
And those complaining about the underpriced chimeras the veterans and other are in tend to be making full use of their 35pt Rhinos...

Chimeras are now good, but not ridiculously over the top. They're still armour 10 on most sides, have one hatch at the back, and have to choose between moving, and using those weapons they've paid for.

I have 3-4 squads of veterans modelled up, and 3-4 standard platoons, depending on what size I run them at. If you're going to have a daft amount of Guard, then you should be able to run most options from the codex....
Bunnahabhain, you keep getting answers in there before I can ;)

Signal
14-08-2009, 17:03
Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if some of these complaints against the new IG codex stem from getting trounced on the table top by arguably the worst army (fluff-wise) in 40k.

DaSpaceAsians
14-08-2009, 17:28
Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if some of these complaints against the new IG codex stem from getting trounced on the table top by arguably the worst army (fluff-wise) in 40k.

Same thing here. Reminds of a kid who really took it badly getting his ass kicked by my guards under the old 3.5 codex. By badly I mean doing annoying remarks,crying cheese on everything that made them hold the line better and sometimes starting an anti-guard "coalition" and a crusade against me. :rolleyes:

Cane
14-08-2009, 17:32
^ Very true. Generally speaking people don't like change either even though the new IG dex has been a great one.

You'll find this in just about any update or forum though. I can only imagine what this place was like when the Ork Biker Nobz power lists were first discovered....

EmperorEternalXIX
14-08-2009, 18:14
I don't really have problems fighting the codex. But like I have said many times: When the Imperial Guard get to act like the Space Marines and the Space Marines have to act like Imperial Guardsmen, it is a pretty stupid correlation.

I don't like the comparison to the rhino at all. The rhino has crappy armor on the front and sides, and because of that, people don't need to maneuver at all to get a better shot on it, just fire away with the nearest available high strength weapon. Against chimeras you have to maneuver, and if you are trying to get within range for some guaranteed AT like melta/MM weapons, you are going to be well within the range of all of those nasty guns.

Disadvantages to the list aside I think something is seriously off when my guard friend goes, "okay, going to fire on your unit with my veterans..." and then proceeds to roll for
- Multilaser
- Heavy Bolter (remember pivoting isn't movement...)
- Heavy Stubber
- Harker's heavy bolter
- An Autocannon team
- 3 plasmas

That is a vastly higher damage potential than most other units in the entire game. Nobody else sees this as a little peculiar to find in the "underdog" army? I mean, the rest of the codex is balanced out by BS3. But these guys are armed to the teeth and don't have that negative. Just makes no sense to me.

As for not being able to beat the Guard, I have no issues with that. Unlike most SM generals, I don't throw 300-point 5-man units to their imminent deaths in the middle of the IG gunline (which is nowadays full of BS4 melta and plasma and triple flamer squads). Once I started walking my forces across the board and supplementing my units' roles (every unit in my list virtually has anti tank and anti infantry capabilities, keeping their threat high even when I lose critical parts), I started to beat the guard regularly.

I actually once won a game against the very list I have harped on, with him starting his entire army in reserves and me having no one to fight on turn one or two. It screwed me up royally and I actually went and popped smoke on everything on turn one -- when the other guy couldn't possibly be on the board -- and wasted it all. And I still managed to win.

The vet guys are easy to beat. They are all tactically unsound, as my arguments on this forum about it have proven. They all seem to think they should come towards a CC-superior army, all of them salivating to get their shiny new BS4 unit in real rapid-fire damage range. If you are smart with placement and movement, I've found an IG general will practically feed you these guys because they are so excited to send them out into the fight. All you have to do is screw up that front couple of Chimeras and the whole train gets out of whack, heh.

My complaint isn't that it's hard to beat, it's that it's excessively prevalent. I have a similar complaint about those stupid green Twinlinkamanders, and they are from my own book.

Bunnahabhain
14-08-2009, 18:28
- Multilaser
- Heavy Bolter (remember pivoting isn't movement...)
- Heavy Stubber
- Harker's heavy bolter
- An Autocannon team
- 3 plasmas



That unit costs 240 pts though. It should be seriously nasty, and it will still fold like a wet paper bag against a tactical squad, let a lone a real CC unit...

Also, remember Harker is a special character, and isn't going to be in every squad. Don't oversell it, it distracts from sensible and correct points your making.

Chimeras are very fragile. Even with Front armour 12, they're easy to glance, and the long sides of AV10 are even more vulnerable. Unless you're doing a massive armoured wedge, it's very hard to hide both sides of them, especially against any army that has any mobility at all

252nd Fire Dragoon
14-08-2009, 18:35
Aloha,
sorry I should have refrazed what I said more. I'm fine with veteran regiments, say, if your army is like Cadian or Catachan, because I can see that. But like Emperor said, with the amount of people who do whole veteran things, It does get kind of repetetive and non fluffy, like Nob Biker with strength ten Big Choppas and Power Klaws, and sorry if I like doing things fluff wise. BTW I am an Imperial Guard player, so I'm not just talking as a disgruntled gamer.

Signal
14-08-2009, 18:50
That is a vastly higher damage potential than most other units in the entire game. Nobody else sees this as a little peculiar to find in the "underdog" army? I mean, the rest of the codex is balanced out by BS3. But these guys are armed to the teeth and don't have that negative. Just makes no sense to me.

As has already been mentioned: Don't oversell your case. You gave an example of an expensive unit with a unique character - of course it's going to be deadly. Just like Vulkan and Thunder Hammer Terminators packed into a Land Raider are going to be.



My complaint isn't that it's hard to beat, it's that it's excessively prevalent. I have a similar complaint about those stupid green Twinlinkamanders, and they are from my own book.

So how do you feel about Lash Princes paired with Obliterators? Or Nob Bikers? I won't deny that 40k players will gravitate towards what they feel is powerful - but should it really be all that suprising to you?

Look, as much as I love the fluff and sportsmanship, I also like to win occasionally. You can praise me and pat me on the back all you like if I fielded a fluffy army that didn't rely on the most popular units (Lash Princes, Nob Bikers, Mech Vets, Vulkan), but after you kick my ass up and down the map about 8 times I'll begin to wonder if you're just suckering me into playing a gimped list.

Signal
14-08-2009, 18:53
Aloha,
sorry I should have refrazed what I said more. I'm fine with veteran regiments, say, if your army is like Cadian or Catachan, because I can see that. But like Emperor said, with the amount of people who do whole veteran things, It does get kind of repetetive and non fluffy, like Nob Biker with strength ten Big Choppas and Power Klaws, and sorry if I like doing things fluff wise. BTW I am an Imperial Guard player, so I'm not just talking as a disgruntled gamer.

Awesome. Then perhaps you can help us research an effective and competitive IG list that doesn't rely on mechanized veterans too much?

snottlebocket
14-08-2009, 18:55
Considering the actual size of regiments, nobody actually fields veteran regiments. Fluffwise I think it's a lot sillier to think veterans are deployed 10 at a time. A veteran only guard army is still maybe a few dozen veterans, that's not a lot.

Gamewise, I think they offer a nice opportunity to avoid having to paint 200 of the blighters and to actually play with some worthwhile ballistic skill and weapons.

Murphy's law
14-08-2009, 19:00
Aloha,
sorry I should have refrazed what I said more. I'm fine with veteran regiments, say, if your army is like Cadian or Catachan, because I can see that. But like Emperor said, with the amount of people who do whole veteran things, It does get kind of repetetive and non fluffy, like Nob Biker with strength ten Big Choppas and Power Klaws, and sorry if I like doing things fluff wise. BTW I am an Imperial Guard player, so I'm not just talking as a disgruntled gamer.

I don't get it.
Everyone can make a veteran army if he/she likes to do that.
Dou you mean, because i know there's a lot of veteran guard army's worldwide, i shouldn't do it?
It's your money, it's my money, it's your game, it's my game, let's all play the army's we want to, ok?

Veteran army's are in no way game breaking and are in no way non fluffy.
If you see to many people playing that style of Guard and you don't like it, just don't play them.;)

Murphy's law
14-08-2009, 19:05
Disadvantages to the list aside I think something is seriously off when my guard friend goes, "okay, going to fire on your unit with my veterans..." and then proceeds to roll for
- Multilaser
- Heavy Bolter (remember pivoting isn't movement...)
- Heavy Stubber
- Harker's heavy bolter
- An Autocannon team
- 3 plasmas

I think this example is just ridiculous.

decker_cky
14-08-2009, 19:11
That is a vastly higher damage potential than most other units in the entire game. Nobody else sees this as a little peculiar to find in the "underdog" army? I mean, the rest of the codex is balanced out by BS3. But these guys are armed to the teeth and don't have that negative. Just makes no sense to me.

There's the flaw in your entire thinking. Guard are the hammer of the emperor. They aren't underdogs except individually. Yes, they often get smashed in the fluff, and yes, they were underpowered in their last iteration. Don't let it fool you, they're now a codex that can be very powerful and shouldn't be considered the underdog.

And the argument of shaking a chimera's a good one. For a glance on an AV12 vehicle, you shut down 200 pts of firepower for the turn. Get a few glances and surgically hit the line in those places where the firepower is limited and the veterans fold. Once marines close in, they will slaughter any veteran squads or chimeras they touch. Veterans with plasma can put down marines, but a standard bolter is almost as good as that at putting down a veteran.

Regarding having to change your army to deal with it....that's just called metagame. Everyone (even guard) needs to bring the tools to deal with a variety of opponents. That just means guard have become an opponent you have to consider, not that they're unfair.

trapper
14-08-2009, 19:17
I still dont see many of these 'marines are the new guard' thing here. "The rhino has crappy armor on the front and sides..." Now I dont get it, the chimera is one more front armour and I know how much people think their dreadnoughts are easy to kill...why are chimera's harder? And then the sides are 10, which is less than the "crappy" armour of the rhino.

As far as being better equiped, yeah they are. They ran out with 500 other guardsmen who had their heavy and special weapons who are sudenly killed en-mass. Why not strip the better weaponry from them?


Now my biggest problem here is that in my area there are 3 regular guard players, one has 2 veteran squads and a full platoon, another has one veretan squad and a half platoon and a ton of tanks and then I have a mix of the two with a few tanks, a full platoon and one vet squad.

Now marine players in the area (of whom there are more than the guard...very fluffy, even more so when each of them is lead by a named chapter master). One runs black templars with two land raider crusaders with assault terminators. Another runs 4-6 dreadnoughts as a wall of death. There are two spacewolves with landraiders and a rhino rush. And there is also an ultramarine drop pod army.

So stop moaning about 'every' guard using a chimera/vet rush as that is not true at all. And stop moaning about marines being guard and guard marines. Unless a new codex is released people are going to run veterans as they please just as marines run named characters in atleast 50% of the lists out there.

252nd Fire Dragoon
15-08-2009, 00:31
Aloha,
Ok good god veteran fluff of a million people are fine. Like I said, that is just MY opinion, you dont have to agree with me (Which I see almost all of you are doing), so if you guys want veteran only armies thats fine.

EmperorEternalXIX
15-08-2009, 01:05
Regarding having to change your army to deal with it....that's just called metagame. Everyone (even guard) needs to bring the tools to deal with a variety of opponents. That just means guard have become an opponent you have to consider, not that they're unfair. Reconfiguring my list to better deal with a tough opponent is one of my favorite parts of the game, really. But I have to point out that the list I built that does a decent job with the guard, utterly smashes most other things we have at our group. Of course we have a wide spectrum of player skill in our area, so it's not all army lists to blame, but it's a point I find worth noticing. Only Eldar still give me trouble at this point, and the Orks. Otherwise I really don't sweat any of the other armies at this point.


As far as being better equiped, yeah they are. They ran out with 500 other guardsmen who had their heavy and special weapons who are sudenly killed en-mass. Why not strip the better weaponry from them? Actually, this is a really good point and justifies it a lot more (though it's a little too perfect...would be cool if they rolled for looted weapon, hehe).


Now my biggest problem here is that in my area there are 3 regular guard players, one has 2 veteran squads and a full platoon, another has one veretan squad and a half platoon and a ton of tanks and then I have a mix of the two with a few tanks, a full platoon and one vet squad.

Now marine players in the area (of whom there are more than the guard...very fluffy, even more so when each of them is lead by a named chapter master). One runs black templars with two land raider crusaders with assault terminators. Another runs 4-6 dreadnoughts as a wall of death. There are two spacewolves with landraiders and a rhino rush. And there is also an ultramarine drop pod army. My point is sort of cemented by this. Your three guard list examples are more comparable then these space marine lists (all of which sound very nasty, not to detract from your point). Other than that they are all mechanized, they are all pretty nasty and have less in common. Guard lists are looking more and more alike, the only difference is the balance of scrubs to BS4 infantry, whether you took a Valkyrie or not, and which flavor of Leman Russ you brought. Not to say that your example suffers from this, but I notice the longer the codex has been out, the more players (at least local to me anyway) have gravitated toward this sort of setup.


I still dont see many of these 'marines are the new guard' thing here. "The rhino has crappy armor on the front and sides..." Now I dont get it, the chimera is one more front armour and I know how much people think their dreadnoughts are easy to kill...why are chimera's harder? And then the sides are 10, which is less than the "crappy" armour of the rhino. My point here is that the Chimera can take steps to minimize the exposure of its weak side, whereas the Rhino can only worsen it's chances to be destroyed by accidentally exposing its back side. Otherwise it's always an 11 to penetrate and no amount of maneuvering will mean otherwise. It's a meta game point, relative to the players involved, but the point is, a wall of chimeras with a leman russ on either side is not that uncommon a sight in my experience. And again, pivoting stops nothing from shooting and will allow you to keep your front armor facing out much of the time if you are doing a mechanized static shooting list.

The Chimera isn't hard to kill but it's much more versatile. For instance, after I let the marines out of a rhino, you can pretty much ignore it. Every once in a great while they will be able to escape a hairy situation and get in and book it, but usually, marines rhino rushing get killed by attrition and enemy numbers. Ultimately they are going to send 1 unit to its death, while meanwhile they will be surrounded by others. Even supported, marines are outnumbered; we hit the table outnumbered, mostly, even against other MEQs. Conversely, a Chimera is still unpleasant to deal with even if its squad has left and gone elsewhere (mostly due to the fact that there are often several more with it, but still).

I don't know why everyone is harping on the example I posed earlier. If you take away Harker's shots its still rather unpleasant and only a fool is going to NOT put such an expensive unit in a chimera when it benefits them so heavily.

Generally these veteran debates for the fluff are pretty reasonable and make a lot of sense. I just think giving the guard such wide access to BS4 models is one step further toward the whole game being BS4 (except the orks, lol).

wavynavy
15-08-2009, 02:07
i have 2 vet squads but i also use my regular inf. and my rough riders.one i use victorian colonial naval landing party figures with sailor uniforms and the other id 1914 highlanders i just convertied them.my rough riders are the royal scots greys from waterloo 1815.