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View Full Version : In 5th edition, have Powerfists become a 'must-have?'



ashc
12-08-2009, 11:25
I suppose this is for marine (both the spiky and non-spiky varieties) but does it feel that in 5th edition powerfists have become a bit of a 'must-have' for your units.

Being able to hit vehicles in the rear armour, large numbers or uses of walkers being seen, the difficulty of dealing with monstrous creatures seems to lead to more and more reliance on using ''fists to deal with the inevitability of facing these things in close proximity. Perhaps if the rules allowed the use of Krak grenades in combat vs. things such as Monstrous Creatures (like the old 'nid hunter unit had) then you wouldn't see so many of them.

Does anyone else agree?

Vaktathi
12-08-2009, 11:31
With the proliferation of krak grenades, the wound allocation rules, the increase in PF costs across the board, and removal of bonus CC attacks for powerfists, if anything I see them as less needed. I generally don't run them on my CSM's for the most part except in Terminator squads on one or two guys.

Krak grenades on most SM units means every model in the unit can potentially kill the vast majority of tanks in the game, reducing the need for powerfists. Additionally, powerfists are not only more expensive in books since 2007, but they also are easier to kill through wound allocation and they have fewer attacks now that a pistol or other CCW no longer grants them an extra attack.


That said, they can be very powerful against vehicles, and using them on things like Nobs or Oblits to generate greater combat results is definitely a concern, but I think overall, at least to me, I've found Powerfists to be much less needed in 5th ed.

When they were 15pts each, had an extra attack, and could live longer I thought they were mandatory. Now at 25pts with only base attacks and being easier to kill through wound allocation I think they are far from mandatory.

samiens
12-08-2009, 11:38
they were must have in 4th and (drum roll please) they are must have in 5th... Its like power weapons aren't even trying lol

IAMNOTHERE
12-08-2009, 11:40
Seconded Vaktathi, I see less and less fists these days.

They're just a second choice these days. Melta's the new king of antitank and there are very few T8+ beasties out there. Why wasted 9 other marines in combat with a T8 monster?

A common build I see is power sword and melta bombs.

grissom2006
12-08-2009, 11:47
Anyone who thinks a Power Fist is must have isn't noting the down side to them i take them put no more than i have ever fielded them in a army.

Nicha11
12-08-2009, 12:03
They are a must in my army. Instant deathing any bad-ass character that comes near is invaluable.

Bunnahabhain
12-08-2009, 12:05
Nope, as vakathi has noted.

Most MEQ units with the option have less need of them now- power weapon and krak/melta bombs work just fine, for less, and they're still pointless on most S3 models, due to the fragility of the wielder.

The only place they are still a real no brainer is the Nob of big mobs. There, they are needed to deal with certain targets, and have so many ablative wounds, they will last a long time.

This thread is an edition late

Deus
12-08-2009, 12:24
I'd rather take 2 fists on my sergs instead of that 3rd attack bike, they just do so much for the squad, it's a tactical flexibility. Need to tarapit that Tyrant? Sure, and lets hurt it at the same time. Oh hello walker "Splat". I find too much use for them.

The difference between 3 attacks that hit/wound on 4+/4+ is just not enough, I need 2 attacks that do 4+/2+ to T5 and T6 units. If you mainly face T3 then sure, the PW is better, but being able to put the smack down on stuff reliably up to T7 and ID T4 characters is just too good.

Grimtuff
12-08-2009, 12:35
They are a must in my army. Instant deathing any bad-ass character that comes near is invaluable.

I think you'll find most of the "Bad-ass-est" characters in this game are either T5 base and/or have Eternal Warrior. ;)

Warsmith Tharak
12-08-2009, 12:36
With the new wound allocation rule I find my power weapon wounds the same flamer dude twise everytime and let my opponent surive to swing with his power weapon a second time... Fist in my mind is the weapon needed to finish of a squad in one phase.

Captain Micha
12-08-2009, 12:37
If anything I'd say they have become less important.

That being said they are still the awesome sauce. At least on Termies and the like.

Mojaco
12-08-2009, 12:38
No longer necersary. If you have a squad running ahead ready to tackle anything (like a ork mob has to be able to), then sure. But tactical marines and such often have other specialists handling the monsters and walkers, relying more on shooting stuff. They don't need a fist at all.

I understand some people love the flexibility, but Eldar and Tyranids and such do fine with much more specialised gear. A space marines player can save himself a lot of points by adopting the same specialised approach.

ashc
12-08-2009, 12:59
hmm, maybe my view is askew due to playing Death Guard. For me, I3 power weapons seem pointless and so I opt for the powerfists; in turn, my opponents go for powerfists to reliably take down plaguemarines in close combat. I also see a lot of marine players, so once again that may be why.

Captain Micha
12-08-2009, 13:01
That's probably alot to do with it.

As a guard player I don't even worry about sticking power weapons or fists into most of my lists. *it just eats up points... because the Ig are still going to lose CC and be swept off the board :p *

My BTs *when I do play them* don't even get the option for fists, so I don't sweat it there either.

My Necrons don't even get the option to have Real Mans CC weapons, nor do my Tau.

Even if I did though, I wouldn't take em, at least not on my shooty stuff.

Narf
12-08-2009, 13:14
power fists are situational, like every weapon.

Yes maybe they arent as good against vehicles anymore due to all marines etc having krak grenades, on the other side of this though, would you want just one attack hitting on a 0+/4+/6+ depending on speed, or 2/3 attacks hitting on 0+/4+/6+ with a higher strength.

on assault units, i'd say they should be a must, as these units dont want to get bogged down, and need something to kill a unit in one turn, a power weapon will work, but a power fist has more of a chance of winning the combat.

on combat squaded marines they dont really have much use though, as these units should be supporting your assault units and not being actuvly instigating an assault, hence power weapons are good.

Power fists should not be put on IC's (even ork warbosses are better with big choppers) as most races now have a plus strength power weapon instead, or their IC's really shouldnt be anywhere near combat (guard)

overall there are most definatly uses for them, and they are more survivable due to being hidden in squads and having wound allocation does help, though of course it can backfire.

overall yes they have there uses, the amount of them placed in assault style squads will have increased, but support and IC's will not have as many powerfists.

Bunnahabhain
12-08-2009, 13:32
... Fist in my mind is the weapon needed to finish of a squad in one phase.

YES PLEASE!

Go on, finish off the squad in one phase. You're now stuck out in the open, un-engaged, and it's my shooting phase.


Have you seen what happens when a platoon of Guardsmen get to unleash short ranged firepower on people in the open? Anything short of Nob bikers, seer council or Wraithlord just dies is a heap.- ie things with re-rollable decent saves, decent saves + FNP, or so high toughness very few things wound.

We don't care about 2+ saves, or 3++ invunerable ones. That unit is rolling 37 saves. You will fail plenty.

EDIT. Being stuck in the open in you opponents turn is always bad. If it's not massed firepower, it's letting them assualt you, with them getting their charge bonuses

pookie
12-08-2009, 13:41
YES PLEASE!

Go on, finish off the squad in one phase. You're now stuck out in the open, un-engaged, and it's my shooting phase.


Have you seen what happens when a platoon of Guardsmen get to unleash short ranged firepower on people in the open?

Yeah you get to shout Bright Lights, Bright Lights in a strange voice :D

OT

i always use PF, but ive a BT force and dont tend to run with many Heavy Weapons, i need to ensure that all my Sqds can deal with anything that they come up against and Power weapons just dont and in some cases cant cut it, for me Power weapons are for the HQ Choices, and even then my Chappy has a PF too.:evilgrin: ( Hooray for TH and chappys with 3 Base Attacks ).

i agree that less people use them, but its down to personal choice imo, theres pros and cons, but generally now with the wound allocation and lack of extra attacks from a 2nd ( non PF ) wep, they get over looked.

Giganthrax
12-08-2009, 14:08
Power fists are extremely useful. They can change the whole way you use your squads, as well as change the way the opponent looks at them.

That being said, PFs are also very expensive at the moment, so that balances them out as it prevents us from having them on every squad.

Fixer
12-08-2009, 14:19
In 3rd edition unit sergeants could be allocated wounds individually. Power sword sergeants taking each other out at I4 was the norm, so powerfists were a non-choice on everyone but Salamanders (since they were going last anyway, they might as well go last twice as hard) Blood Claws or Black Templars (since they could have untargetable powerfists on special weapons models).

When 4th hit, sergeants became untargetable. Initiative became much less of an issue and with discounts on the cost of weapons you now got to strike twice as hard for a small points increase.

5th edition has reduced the number of powerfist attacks models get, returned their price to 3rd edition levels and has given a large number of units the ability to crack armor without it (krak and always hitting rear armor) which has reduced their value but still works out at the most versatile choice for an assault units. Tactical marines are more suited to shooting and for the most part are better off saving points for the upgrades to be spent on improving other more melee focused squads.

SPYDER68
12-08-2009, 14:44
With all the mech lists now.. even with Krak Gernades.. 3 str 8 fist attacks on the rear is nice...

Not to mention.. we have a couple nid players around here that run tons of Big bugs..

Then on top of that, there will be 2 plaguemarine armies..


So it depends where you play.. Around here there around more.

nothingatall544
12-08-2009, 15:14
I still run them in the CSM all the time for the simple reason of mathhammer

Assuming a MEQ is hitting anything WS 4 T4 (IE Orks, Marines, Necrons...)

A Power Weapon will get 4 attacks on the charge, hit twice and wound once.

4 * 1/2 *1/2 = 1

A Power Fist will get only 3 attacks on the charge, but will do more wounds because they are more likely to wound.

3 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1.25

and if your attacking anything with T5 (Immortals, Bikers of any kind, Plague Marines...) the Power fist will do the same number of wounds, but the Power Weapon will do less.

Ravenous
12-08-2009, 15:41
Power fists on marines suck because of wound allocation and the lack of attacks now, before they were just there to slap around MCs and tanks but with every marine with krak grenades and most back armour being 10 it renders the 25pt upgrade useless. Even against MCs they are practically useless causing only 1 wound per round on average.

On Orks however they are practically required since you need to do 60 wounds before you can kill the nob.

Cry of the Wind
12-08-2009, 16:31
I think I'll be keeping my Power Fists on my Marines. My IG don't get anything outside of Apocalypse (one day my men will remember to bring batteries for their power weapons/fists, one day...) but that really isn't surprising. I find the Fist gives that unit an added tactical use as all the krak grenades in the world won't matter against that big daemon/wraith construct/big bug/etc and having 3 Str8 attacks on a vehicle can mean the difference from glancing hits to pens.

I've also never had the best luck rolling to wound for power weapons, maybe I should try lightning claws...

nightgant98c
12-08-2009, 16:32
Must-have? No, but they do give a unit a big boost in versatility, and threat level. Vehicles, MC's and IC's all are threatened by a power fist. That can be a very big thing, and can be worth the points. You cannot mindlessly charge a squad with a fist, unless you have backup, or are sure you can take them out before the fist strikes.

NovaScotius
12-08-2009, 16:58
You know, the one thing that really stands out in my mind now is that Power Fists are balanced against Power Weapons - The very fact that people are arguing both sides of this case shows that the designers have actually got it right for once, and managed to balance the Power Fist with a Power Weapon. Imagine if this topic came up during 4th, it'd be a landslide in favour of the Power Fists, whereas now, people are waking up to the idea of using a different weapon for their Space Marine Sergeants (For example).

Grand Master Raziel
12-08-2009, 17:32
For Space Marines and Chaos, yes, PFs are an absolute necessity to have in any squad that's likely to get close to the enemy, which is all of them. I even take them on my Devastator Squads, because of the likelihood of opponents sneaking something around at my Devs. Krak grenades are great and all, but they of limited effectiveness against Walkers and no help at all vs MCs. The only army in the game that has neither is the Tau. The only armies in the game that don't have access to MCs in one form or another are Tau, Space Marines (all loyalist variants), Imperial Guard, and Orks. The average MC is T6 and has a 3+ save, with a possibility of facing up to T8 or 2+ saves, so the odds of wounding one in combat without a PF are vanishingly small. Most Walkers have AV12 fronts (even IG have front AV12 Walkers now), so krak grenades need 6's to hit and 6's to Glance - again, doing damage is a miniscule prospect. Plus, there are AV13 Walkers in the game now, which krak grenades can't even Glance against. So, one can either accept that an expensive squad has no chance against a MC or Walker if it should get stuck in combat against such a thing, or one can spend a few more points to give his squad a chance of defeating them.

In my mind, the main reason PFs are absolute necessities is the existance of Monstrous Creatures and the way the game deals with them. They're much more resilient than vehicles even now, and none of them will ever run away. Plus, once the things get stuck in combat, unless the unit they're facing has one or more PF equivalents or Rending or something of that nature, they're almost entirely safe from retribution, despite the fact that they generally stand 3-4 times higher than the models they happen to be in combat with. If infantry could shoot their guns at them instead of trying to club them, if anti-armor grenades could be used against them, if they could be shot at while in combat with non-monstrous opponents, any of these things would make them more reasonable and make PFs far less necessary. Heck, if squads could just opt to voluntarily fail their Morale checks, the need for PFs would not be so absolute. However, apparently only the Ultramarines are smart enough to execute tactical withdrawls, so the rest of us are stuck with PF-necessity.

Personally, there are two changes that would make me comfortable not having PFs in my squads. The first would be to make anti-armor grenades a viable threat to MCs. 6's to hit, Strength as against vehicles (S6 for kraks, S8 for meltabombs) ignores armor saves. That would give krak-armed squads a much more reasonable chance against MCs than they currently have. The other change would be to remove the extra D6 of Armor Penetration that MCs get when in combat with a Walker. That would make counter-charging with a Dreadnought an actual feasable option, rather than being incredibly foolish, as is currently the case. Until these things find their way into the rules, though, I'll be taking PFs in all my squads.




I understand some people love the flexibility, but Eldar and Tyranids and such do fine with much more specialised gear. A space marines player can save himself a lot of points by adopting the same specialised approach.

I must state as emphatically as I can: That is a very bad idea! Both of the armies you have mentioned feature hyper-specialized units to deal with particular battlefield threats. SM players have expensive generalist units that have to be able to threaten anything that might come on the table. Both Eldar and Tyranids also feature some pretty good Monstrous Creatures that can be used to counter-charge MCs or any walker that's foolish enough to get close. Also, Nid Troops tend to either be super-cheap or be Genestealers with Rending, so in the case of the former they can be conveniently sacrificed, and in the case of the latter they have a built-in rule that gives them a fighting chance against anything they might happen to encounter.


My BTs *when I do play them* don't even get the option for fists, so I don't sweat it there either.


Weeeellll...that's not entirely accurate. BT Crusader Squads do have the option of taking a PF, they just don't have a good option, since the PF is wielded by a model with a single attack on his profile.



on combat squaded marines they dont really have much use though, as these units should be supporting your assault units and not being actuvly instigating an assault, hence power weapons are good.

Since the Combat Squads rule debuted, I've found in general that Combat Squadding is a bad idea. It reduces your in-close firepower, your assault potential, and your ability to absorb assaults with your squads. That's not even getting into the issues with Kill Points.


Power fists should not be put on IC's (even ork warbosses are better with big choppers) as most races now have a plus strength power weapon instead, or their IC's really shouldnt be anywhere near combat (guard)


I agree, unless the IC in question is immune to Instant Death. However, the ability to take an upgrade making them immune to ID has been taken out of most dexes that had it. BTs still have it, so the Marshall with thunder hammer+storm shield+adamantine mantle is still a viable option. Anyhow, that's why I think Pedro Kantor has a boneheaded build. PF as his only ccw, no Eternal Warrior.


Power fists on marines suck because of wound allocation and the lack of attacks now, before they were just there to slap around MCs and tanks but with every marine with krak grenades and most back armour being 10 it renders the 25pt upgrade useless. Even against MCs they are practically useless causing only 1 wound per round on average.


Hey, better one wound a round and maybe killing the thing than the likely no wounds per round without and being stuck in combat against the thing until it kills the entire squad.

zakk_wylde001
12-08-2009, 17:33
I don't run any fists in either of my 1500pt Marine or Guard lists. I just don't feel like they add anything to my army. So I wouldn't say that it's imperative to take them.

Bookwrak
12-08-2009, 17:36
Yeah, powerfists were most certainly a 'must-have' last edition. I'd say that the current edition has got them pretty much right - taking them is now an actual tactical consideration, rather than a forgone conclusion.

decker_cky
12-08-2009, 17:48
For marines, wouldn't it be a worthwhile idea to not take fists and to just choose to break with combat tactics, hopefully getting away (and having ATSKNF for if they don't)? Doesn't work with all the sexy special characters, but marines will do more damage shooting a MC than plinking off wounds with a fist.

pookie
12-08-2009, 17:50
My BTs *when I do play them* don't even get the option for fists, so I don't sweat it there either.



Im Guessing you dont play em often, as you can get them in: Ceusade Sqds, Swd Brethern Sqds and also in Command Sqds ( and iirc Asault sqds - which i dont use, hence why im unsure).

IronNerd
12-08-2009, 17:58
I find them as a necessity on expensive/valuable troop squads (Plagues or Zerkers) so that a walker doesn't completely take them out of the game. It depends too heavily on what type of unit and what they are doing.

IhasAshuvel
12-08-2009, 18:01
Meh, as far as special close combat weapons go powerfists are average at best.

Shadowphrakt
12-08-2009, 18:02
That being said they are still the awesome sauce. At least on Termies and the like.
See, my termies never reach combat with their power fists. I just don't see the point to it, they're much better at being (a rather bad-ass, ceramite cocooned) speed bump on objectives.

marv335
12-08-2009, 18:33
My Orks have a Power Klaw in every unit that can have one.
I don't leave home without them.
I wouldn't say that they are a necessity, but I have to say I've never regretted paying the points for them

kazkal
13-08-2009, 23:40
Have my SKull Champions Decked out with powerfists.

IhasAshuvel
14-08-2009, 00:17
The trend is that dedicated assault units really do need a fist otherwise dreadnoughts are unstoppable (even with a fist a dreadnaught will still tear a hole in a unit easily) - but if it isn't an assault squad/berzerker unit/etc the fist is an overrated form of insurance.

shin'keiro
14-08-2009, 00:24
In 5th edition, have Powerfists become a 'must-have?'
No, not really

Vandelan
14-08-2009, 00:28
Playing Black Templar, I use power fists as insurance. I'd rather have one for the price I pay than be stuck in a rut without one.

If they were the same amount of points as a standard power fist, I probably wouldn't bother. Since there are no squad leaders, my guy with the power fist is only getting one attack with it outside of charging.


Honestly, I don't see power fists as being must have for every army. Armies like Orks are always going to use power klaws because the army is already slow and needs to be extra killy in close combat. I think that it is a good idea for a number of armies to play a couple of powerfists, but only a few armies must have as many as possible.

Fire Harte
14-08-2009, 00:57
I'd definately have a power klaw for ork mobz because if a dread hits them or a big gribbly then they'll just be worthless. They can have rokkit launcherz to but they ain't the same and cannot be used in close combat (therefore I'd take both depending upon my mood).

AmasNagol
14-08-2009, 01:01
Not being able to use Grenades in combat is why PFists will always have a place in armies who need to be competent in the Assault phase.

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 02:17
You can NOT take power fists?

Mitthrawdo
14-08-2009, 02:40
I never use powerfists anymore. On average, they have only ever killed one enemy model while the rest floundered their attacks. In return, I lose one Marine. Since it is a tie, I can't use combat tactics and flee from the assault to shoot at the particular squad. Against monstrous creatures, all you'll ever do is a few wounds and probably not kill it. Then he strikes and kills several of yours. Obviously you would want to fall back with combat tactics so other units can take it down, which usually take down nicely, wounded or not.

Mannimarco
14-08-2009, 03:02
my chaos warband "the faithless" has 6 squads, 4 of them are led by a champ with a fist

always see it as its better to have one and not need it than to need it and not have one

Flypaper
14-08-2009, 08:12
So far, no-one's mentioned the negative interaction between Power Fists and Combat Tactics (for 'nilla marines without SCs). That is, Power Fists make you more likely to win combat - but sometimes you want to lose so you can combine Combat Tactics with ATSKNF to effectively give yourself the Hit and Run special rule.

...That gives you more chances at shooting, and also lets you break away from MCs/Walkers rather than forcing you to kill them the hard way to escape combat.

[Edit: bah, Mitthrawdo mentioned it in his final sentence. That'll teach me to skim!]

big squig
14-08-2009, 11:25
Powerfists were a must have in 4th ed too. I almost never see a reason to take a power weapon sarg in any army.

adreal
15-08-2009, 03:25
I play emperor's children, so I get I5, and yet I still take powerfists on most of my squads (I have one power weapon, 3 powerfists and 1 dakka sqaud). They are just needed, power weapons just don't tend to do the wounds I need, where as powerfists are great, usually garrentied two wounds, maybe 3 if I'm luckey.

So I might pay through the nose for I5, I'll still take a powerfist and waste the I5 because I know powerfists will work for me

Kalec
15-08-2009, 04:20
Fists aren't a must-have in every unit that can take them, but power weapons are still terrible.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-08-2009, 06:23
As said an edition late, and the question's not so clear. Personally, I play Chaos, my line CSM squads all have powerfists, and my Termies have a couple in their ranks.

I think they were nerfed a little overmuch. Nearly twice the cost of a basic Chaos Marine and I lose an attack? That bolt pistol that guy has isn't going to replicate his power weapon either, so why does he get an attack? Doesn't make sense. But in the end, I've got to hope they're worth it.

Personally don't have a whole ton of trouble with MCs because two meltas and a pattering of bolt pistol rounds followed by a charge with a powerfist and a round (at most) beyond that usually takes the beast down. If not one squad, then two will do the job.


The first would be to make anti-armor grenades a viable threat to MCs. 6's to hit, Strength as against vehicles (S6 for kraks, S8 for meltabombs) ignores armor saves. That would give krak-armed squads a much more reasonable chance against MCs than they currently have. The other change would be to remove the extra D6 of Armor Penetration that MCs get when in combat with a Walker. That would make counter-charging with a Dreadnought an actual feasable option, rather than being incredibly foolish, as is currently the case.

I agree with both.


Have my SKull Champions Decked out with powerfists.

Meh. I see Berzerkers as more for shredding Troop units. A ten strong squad with a power weapon Champ = 36 S5 I5 regular attacks and 5 S5 I5 attacks. Usually only takes until the end of the enemy's assault phase for the enemy to wipe. Then I get to do it again, or reembark and dive for cover, or just dive for cover if transport isn't avaliable.

Kriegfreak
15-08-2009, 06:45
As a guard player I generally try to include a powerfist when the option is available. With a lower strength score the added oomph provided by that powerfist makes a world of difference. I like to have em when I can, anyone killed in close combat with a guard squad is a serious victory imo. Far as killing vehicles with them though, so many melta and krak grenade options available - not really sure if they are necessary if you can field something else in their place.

shabbadoo
15-08-2009, 07:48
PF's are not quite so needed now as they were in 3e/4e, but they are still useful. They are certainly more useful in Str 3 armies which also have a general lack of krak grenades, which means mostly Orks and Imperial Guard. PFs are not quite so necessary in MEQs armed with krak grenades, especially considering the new close combat rules vs. vehicles without a WS stat.

senorcardgage
15-08-2009, 08:10
I think that powerfists are less needed when compared to before.

~ It costs more than it used to and offers less attacks
~ Lots of your guys get kraks for free
~ You hit on rear armour so you don't need really high strength attacks

I actually take them quite rarely now, except for with my orks, of course :)

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 08:46
Meh. I see Berzerkers as more for shredding Troop units. A ten strong squad with a power weapon Champ = 36 S5 I5 regular attacks and 5 S5 I5 attacks. Usually only takes until the end of the enemy's assault phase for the enemy to wipe. Then I get to do it again, or reembark and dive for cover, or just dive for cover if transport isn't avaliable.

The problem arises when berzerkers don't curbstomp whatever they touch and your opponent sends a carnifex/dreadnaught/rending pony after them and you can only watch as the standard berzerkers proceed to tickle the enemy while dying horrible, gribbly deaths.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-08-2009, 09:15
Usually got enough mobility to hit the Dread with something that can kill it first.

Wicksy
15-08-2009, 14:32
I like a powerfist on a few of my marine units. Usually the tactical squad that sits on my home objective. The other tends to just get a chainsword...or a powersword if i'm feeling genourous. Then one on the Vanguard vet sgt for tank hunting is usually enough for me.

They are handy for taking stuff down. Especially my mate's plague marines. Sgt vittorius held his objective against a 10 man plague marine squad killing all of his hated brethren with his powerfist.

DuskRaider
15-08-2009, 16:53
I really think it depends on the unit in question. On my Plague Marine Champions I'll take Powerfists, because it's really a no-brainer. They have an Initiative of 3, which means 9 times out of 10 they'll be hitting last anyhow, so might as well throw in 4 STR 8 hits.

On my Skull Champions, however... I use Power Weapons most of the time. I'd rather hit first and get those 5 hits in then worry about the Champ biting the dust before I have an opportunity to take a swing. Yeah, 5 STR 10 hits on a charge are nice, but what do I need a STR 10 hit for that I should be shooting with a Lascannon or Demolisher anyhow?

Alessander
15-08-2009, 20:57
More must-have than 3rd ed, less than 4th.

For anti-tank, Power fists were generally a given for squad upgrades compared to melta bombs since they were multi-functional. However, with all attacks hitting the rear of tanks, and the cost of fists going way up, it's not as much of a no-brainer anymore.

I still love playing me uber-expensive vanguard vets squad each with either 2 fists or 2 hammers. They tear through anything, only costing more than a land raider apocalypse formation and can be taken out by a single battle cannon shot!

Vineas
15-08-2009, 21:17
Combat tactics idea works until you face a CD player and he manages to get a KoS into your tac squad or assault sqaud. You choose to attempt to fall back and he autocatches you as KoS is I10....you can't possibly score an 11 with an I4 unit.

I play 'Nids and Daemons and Eldar so a few in my group take Fists in every squad; those that don't wine and bitch about grenades not able to hurt MC's or GD's while watching a GUO or KoS or Carni or WL munch through their units with impunity.

S4 Power weapons are alot less frightening than a S8 or S9 powerfist is. I personally don't face any MC or GD (unless someone decides to use my armies) but my Sallies still have a Fist where I can find points (normally in assault oriented squads).

IMO Fists are like car insurance. Not needed 99% of the time you ever drive a car during your lifetime but there is always going to be that 1% that you will need it. Better to have it and not need it than not have it and get f@#$ed when you dont.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 23:12
People often forget that fists are only decent if you play marines and orks - guard don't need them as it will rarely save a squad and if you want to punch a tank takw krak grenades (a whole 5 points for a platoon command and 10 for the infantry squad).

Eldar need only bother with them on the scorpian exarchs - even then you can drown marines in wounds if you take chainsabres (or biting blade if you to deal wounds consistently as well as eat tanks).

DE don't get fists but the agoniser is a suitable comparison - this is only taken on assaulting units (for various reasons) but primarily because it lols at high T and strikes at initiative.

Dach
16-08-2009, 00:26
Fist still win against power weapon on marine by far.

normal compo is powerfist or power weapon & meltabomb.

advantage fist:

can auto-kill T4
can wreck most tank and walker more easily (number of attack vs 1 meltabomb hit)
wound most thing on 2+

disadvantage fist:

cost 10 point more
strike at ini 1

advantage of power weapon & melta bomb:

strike at ini 4
+1A (pw)
can pen a landraider (meltabomb)
cost 10 point less

disadvantage:

wound most thing on 4+ or more
only 1 attack against tank
only hit walker on 6
strike at the same ini as the rest of his squad
(MOST ANNOYING DISADVANTAGE)

Example that happened to me:

I have 4 marine and the sergeant wielding a power weapon againt 2 noise marine which one of them is the champion with powerfist.

On going combat...

Ini 5 the noise marine trooper strike first doing nothing.

Ini 4 all my marines strike doing 3 power weapon wound and 3 normal wound.

My opponent take the 3 power weapon on the noise marine trooper and proceed to save all of the normal attack on his champion.

Ini 1 his champion strike back and kill 2 of my marines.

Result I LOST combat by 1... :eyebrows:

Since then I switched back to powerfist and won't change back until rule change again...

Panzersturm
18-08-2009, 02:48
I like my women the way I like my marines: powerfisted

My Berzerkers depend on them and I give one occasionally to my Havocs, just to suprise my enemy.

Zingbaby
18-08-2009, 02:54
Don't forget that now we have NidZilla armies all over the place...

I played against a ridiculous amount of Carnifexes and 2 tyrants in a Planet Strike game the other day - wish I had more PF's!

-IronWarrior-
18-08-2009, 04:29
With the proliferation of krak grenades, the wound allocation rules, the increase in PF costs across the board, and removal of bonus CC attacks for powerfists, if anything I see them as less needed. I generally don't run them on my CSM's for the most part except in Terminator squads on one or two guys.

Krak grenades on most SM units means every model in the unit can potentially kill the vast majority of tanks in the game, reducing the need for powerfists. Additionally, powerfists are not only more expensive in books since 2007, but they also are easier to kill through wound allocation and they have fewer attacks now that a pistol or other CCW no longer grants them an extra attack.


That said, they can be very powerful against vehicles, and using them on things like Nobs or Oblits to generate greater combat results is definitely a concern, but I think overall, at least to me, I've found Powerfists to be much less needed in 5th ed.

When they were 15pts each, had an extra attack, and could live longer I thought they were mandatory. Now at 25pts with only base attacks and being easier to kill through wound allocation I think they are far from mandatory.

Are you insane?

Power Fists are amazing. Crack grenades are only strength 6. That's barely scratching heavy armor and any walker will laugh at them.

Ok, so yes you don't get the (+1) attack but it's still on the charge 3 attacks at strength 8.

With almost nothing in the game running more than natural toughness 5 you can 1 shot almost any independent character by getting 1 wound through.

Without being able to target them anymore they are an incredible threat. By strictly percentages they will kill almost 2 models a turn in close combat. Walking into a typical round with 2 kills (or wounds) under your belt is quite good for the outcome.

25 Points is a little steep but it's there because they can tear apart anything in the game with the exception of a Land Raider.

-IronWarrior-
18-08-2009, 04:32
I think you'll find most of the "Bad-ass-est" characters in this game are either T5 base and/or have Eternal Warrior. ;)

Hmm

Force Commanders (Any Variation Of), Librarians, Cannoness, Anything Guard with the exception of Yarrick, Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, Far Seer's, Orc Boss's, Nobs...

Should I continue?

Kalec
18-08-2009, 06:55
Warbosses are T5. Librarians are pathetically frail or pathetically slow so fists aren't needed. A Cannoness will be boasting a 2+ invuln whenever combat gets dicey. Guard characters are weaklings except for Straken and are easy enough to kill without a fist. A Farseer has a rerollable 3++ and is never, ever going to fight a powerfist unless he really wants to. Nobs aren't characters.

That leaves force commanders, chaos lords, and sorcerers. Big list indeed.

Marrak
18-08-2009, 07:32
Being one of the few nid players in my immediate area (or at least one of the few who understands there's more to nids that running forward and hoping your opponent misses), I can tell you how much I loath powerfists. :P

My Hive Tyrant and guards are the only things that can stand up to them, and that's only because the Tyrant has a lash whip to keep most models from getting more attacks, which anything with a fist has.

As for my Carnifex? It'll get thrashed, and it's because of Fists (and Thunder Hammers) that I always get the I upgrade so they can do some damage before getting torn to shreds.

The powerfist might not be needed, but it removes every advantage my MCs bring to the table (high T and saves); it's wounding em on a 2+, or a 3+ if I get the toughess increase and it's ignoring their saves, and even if I kill the fist it's never going to go down without taking out a wound or three from a TMC.

Frostea
18-08-2009, 10:41
In my opinion it differs per unit.

Jump-pack equipped units would want their sarg with it as they can usually pick which unit they want to engage with.

Horde squadrons would also want it in case they meet wraithlords or carni with t7.

Normal MEQs can take it if they want to but it depends on the armylist (I'm looking towards a balance).

Since now pfists get lesser attacks, it is best to place it on someone with lotsa attacks or rerollable ones. (chaplain w/ squad, nob squads, BT squads (any, as long as the vow is taken))

Vaktathi
18-08-2009, 11:12
Hmm

Force Commanders (Any Variation Of), Librarians, Cannoness, Anything Guard with the exception of Yarrick, Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, Far Seer's, Orc Boss's, Nobs...

Should I continue?

most of those wouldn't rank in the "most badass" category. And Cannonesses can take a wargear item making them immune to the first ID wound they take. Also Ork Warbosses are T5, so most units can't ID them anyway. Guard stuff you really don't need to ID, it's going to die either way.

Badger Mek
18-08-2009, 11:48
I play Orks and I do find them essential.

They're the only reliable strength 8 (9 on the charge) weapon an Ork army has reasonably cheap access to.

And AV14 vehicles make life so very, very tough for Orks: you need something Strrength 9 to be able to take the damn things out.

Putty
18-08-2009, 14:48
Powerfists? Must haves in 5th?

Nooooooo....

Should be Melta-weapons

5th ed armies have to MEQ (Melta EQuivalent) xD

Marshal Augustine
18-08-2009, 20:26
As a BT player I take PF in my 20 man crusader squads. sucks to have 20 men tied up by one dread or wraithlord.
In my DE army... PF? whats that ? :D. Agonizers is where its at.

wangalang
31-08-2009, 18:01
Im pretty nooby so maybe im missing something, but as a guard player models with power fists only get S6, this isn’t great at fighting heavy armour in combat, infact its the same strength as Krak Grenades.
Guard only pay 15 points for a power fist witch is the same as a guard melta bomb (5 pts) and power weapon (10 pts) witch brings me to my question…

Is there any point in the power fist when u can have melta bombs and a power weapon for the same price?

Raxmei
31-08-2009, 18:22
Im pretty nooby so maybe im missing something, but as a guard player models with power fists only get S6, this isn’t great at fighting heavy armour in combat, infact its the same strength as Krak Grenades.
Guard only pay 15 points for a power fist witch is the same as a guard melta bomb (5 pts) and power weapon (10 pts) witch brings me to my question…

Is there any point in the power fist when u can have melta bombs and a power weapon for the same price?You can attack more than once with a power fist. The guys in the Guard codex who can take one have two or three attacks and when assaulting a tank they'll get the charge bonus, so it's three or four S6 attacks. Also when fighting infantry they'll probably be hitting last anyway, so it's losing one attack to be able to wound a 2+, a fair trade.

Lycannus
31-08-2009, 18:22
My brother uses a lot of powerfists in his Marine army, because I keep charging him with wraithguard.....

Vepr
31-08-2009, 18:28
Yeah chimera rush followed by meltas then power fists sucks rocks for my big bugs. :cries: :p

wangalang
31-08-2009, 19:02
do power fists ignore armour saves?

ashc
01-09-2009, 00:19
do power fists ignore armour saves?

Indeed they do, check out the rulebook for more details :).

Pooky
01-09-2009, 07:56
I don't know if "must have" is the right term. I think 5th ed has just moved the camps of "must have" and "must not have" further apart.

I myself take Power Fists on every Serg. I have a Thunder Hammer on my Assault Marine Serg. I also like to field Lysander with a unit of Thunder Hammer/ Storm Sheild Terminators. I'm just a fan of smashing things rather than relying on shooting. I find shooting can be hit-or-miss (forgive the pun!) Besides, you can potentially wipe out an entire bad-**** unit if you assault correctly and sweeping advance over them. You can't do that in shooting.

AmasNagol
01-09-2009, 09:21
They are useful. Very much so.

But the title is misleading. It is just that Power Weapons are comparatively rubbish unless you get a strength bonus.

Vaktathi
01-09-2009, 09:32
Besides, you can potentially wipe out an entire bad-**** unit if you assault correctly and sweeping advance over them. You can't do that in shooting.

Battlecannons would beg to differ :p

AmasNagol
01-09-2009, 13:54
Lash Princes would beg to differ :p

Fixed it for you ;)

Raxmei
01-09-2009, 14:32
People have been talking about the proliferation of the glowy mittens of doom ever since the assault rules changed so you couldn't target them anymore. They were very big in 4th edition and in 5th edition some measures have been put in place to curb their popularity.