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bullshiz20
12-08-2009, 20:45
when i first saw the box i was wondering if it was true.... 90 dollars for 5 metal models??? is that even legal? so i flipped the box and there it was... the 90 dollar price tag (i was at a games workshop) 90 BUCKS!?!?:wtf: how good could this 5 man squad possibly be?... so what im trying to say is that my brother might start to play vamp counts. I was just wondering if its really worth it to pay 90 dollars for a 5 man squad cause i dont want my brother paying for something thats not needed. tell me what you think about them.

here is the link to their page... http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50048&prodId=prod1050083

oh and im fairly new to fantasy and need help with my 2k WoC list so heres the link
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3851989#post3851989

fubukii
12-08-2009, 20:51
they are really nice models, all big and about the same detail as some characters. so in short if he likes the models and the unit sure. If he only likes them a bit he can convert them from chaos knights.

it will depend on how much he likes the models

Tae
12-08-2009, 20:51
Buy 5 plastic chaos knights for under half the price (not sure what they are in USD, but in GBP they go from about 50 to under 20 (iirc)) and convert them.

Kalishnikov-47
12-08-2009, 20:52
when i first saw the box i was wondering if it was true.... 90 dollars for 5 metal models??? is that even legal? so i flipped the box and there it was... the 90 dollar price tag (i was at a games workshop) 90 BUCKS!?!?:wtf: how good could this 5 man squad possibly be?... so what im trying to say is that my brother might start to play vamp counts. I was just wondering if its really worth it to pay 90 dollars for a 5 man squad cause i dont want my brother paying for something thats not needed. tell me what you think about them.

here is the link to their page... http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50048&prodId=prod1050083

Haha where do you live? I have some that I dont really want they are partially put together I would sell them for $40 American lol.

Tokamak
12-08-2009, 20:54
You definitely don't need blood knights in a VC army, and even then you can always convert some yourself from brettonians. Which are about a fifth of the price.

bullshiz20
12-08-2009, 20:56
Haha where do you live? I have some that I dont really want they are partially put together I would sell them for $40 American lol.
I dont live in florida.. lol but thanks anyways! and to all the guys who gave me conversion tips, that works out perfectly cause i play warriors of chaos:) haha

ARabidNun
12-08-2009, 21:02
Alas, I think GW dropped the preverbial cannon ball on their toes with that one. I have been trying to justify paying that much for 5 miniatures myself and I think the best question for your brother is this; Is he planning to play in a GW tournament? If so then he will need to buy them, otherwise they may be (almost assuredly) banned from the tourny. Otherwise there are alternative solutions:

As noted, You can convert some models to make your own from many kits available. Wouldn't vampire goblin dire wolf riders be a great conversion idea? Anyways, VC offers one of the best abilities for conversions with other models (empire, Brettonian, Orcs, Goblins, the list continues). In fact, other companies offer alternatives, there are some great models from Gamezone miniatures I have been considering buying.

Now for gameplay worthiness. Everything I have read leads to YES!!!! they are worth the cost. Come on, 5 mounted vampires with frenzy. If you are careful how to deploy them and don't fall into bait traps they crush nearly everything. Include your general, and a couple of sneaky magic items and you have a nearly unstoppable unit.

Tae
12-08-2009, 21:14
Is he planning to play in a GW tournament? If so then he will need to buy them, otherwise they may be (almost assuredly) banned from the tourny.

Is that how GW used to run its tournaments in the US? If so, it's no wonder they got canned with stupid rules like that!

The UK GT has no such stupid rules (though you would most likely be required to at least attempt some kind of conversion rather than using 'out of the box' models).

Ancre
12-08-2009, 22:01
90$ ? That's insane !

I would say, except if your brother plays regularly to a GW store or something, to go see somewhere else. Conversions from another knight units are a good idea, you can search other miniatures manufacturers (although it is true that, in deference to GW, they do make some of the best models around). Otherwise, if he wants them, maybe independant sellers have them ? They usually do 10% off or something like that, it is said, and this is always good to consider.

txamil
12-08-2009, 22:06
Well, i'll disagree.

Those are some beautiful models. They are pretty close to a 20 dollar model in my mind.

If you love the hobby, esp the painting side, and you're not a student, I think they're pretty awesome.

If it had a FW sticker on it would you pay that much and be happy? Most would I suspect.

gorenut
12-08-2009, 22:07
If you don't play in GW stores.. you can get the Gamezone equiv for $15 per knight.. they are in my opinion superior to the GW Blood Knights.

I've attached some photos showing em.

loveless
12-08-2009, 22:08
$18 a piece for 5 metal models mounted on 25x50 bases.
How much is the Engineer on Mechanical Steed? How much is Marius Leitdorf? How much is Ludwig Schwarzhelm? Kurt Helborg? The Dreadlord on Cold One? The Sorceress on Cold One?

Blood Knights aren't expensive when compared to similar models (those being ones on the same base made of the same material). The problem is that you buy 5 of them in one swoop, so you feel the cost more.

Meanwhile, there's no question that GW products are expensive. The Blood Knights are no exception, but they are no more overcosted than their fellow all-metal cavalry models.

taffeh
12-08-2009, 22:38
I've got a unit of the Blood Knights and love them to bits, have spent a lot of time painting them and the sculptures are just amazing and I believe they are worth the money if they dont get baited with frenzy.

Coupled with a Blood-drinker vamp or simular to res any dead ones and it just makes them a pain in the enemy's back-side. I would say that myself owning the real models makes me think that someone who uses Chaos or Bretonians is a bit of a cheat in the costing, however understanding that I have a well-paid job whilst others dont, and some people can convert well (Mousolion ones especially - I love!) is something I take into consideration.

At the end of the day, they are lovely models and if you have the money - buy them! If you dont or are a great modeller - convert!

Pirate Jimm
12-08-2009, 23:38
If the champion was being sold as a character model, and the standard as a BSB, I would happily pay 10 for them.

However, the pricing does put them out of the range alot of people will be willing to pay, which is prehaps not a brilliant marketing strategy.

Bretonnian Lord
12-08-2009, 23:41
GW products in general are just too darn expensive. To all but the most dedicated hobbyists, there are honestly better things you could spend that $90 on than 5 metal models.

AvariceX
12-08-2009, 23:47
The Blood Knight box is $110 here -_-

But no, you definitely don't really need them. The Varghulf is pretty well the best rare choice available in the VC book, and if you just want some heavy hitting cavalry then Black Knights work just fine for less points and a lot less money. Blood Knights have their merits though, but I really don't see them ever being worth the purchase.

swarmofseals
12-08-2009, 23:55
I second the idea of buying plastic cavalry models and converting them with VC bits. If you are willing to shell out a bit more cash, I'd DEFINITELY get the Gamezone Mournful Knights. The Blood Knights are fantastic models, but the Mournful Knights are even better. Just don't expect to play in a GW store with them.

(for what it's worth, 5 mournful knights will cost you $64 plus shipping from frpgames.com -- still a fair chunk to pay for 5 models, but it's better than $90!)

Tuch
13-08-2009, 00:54
If you don't play in GW stores.. you can get the Gamezone equiv for $15 per knight.. they are in my opinion superior to the GW Blood Knights.

Do you have a link for where to get these? They look great.

gorenut
13-08-2009, 01:13
Do you have a link for where to get these? They look great.

http://www.frpgames.com/new/cart.php?skip=270&m=product_list&mfg=GZM

Scroll down. They're called Mournful Knights.

Vermin-thing
13-08-2009, 05:07
I converted mine from dark elf cold one riders (one box), and a box grave guard. It came out to roughly half price for frankly nicer plastic models.

You in fact are getting some savings by buying them in one box as each one is $25 CAN.

The only reason I would buy one is to make a dread knight character.

I find it interesting that maelstrom games doesn't carry them.

Cypher, the Emperor
13-08-2009, 05:33
Brettonian Knights + Ghoul/Flagellant/daemonette Heads = Blood Knights

Vermin-thing
13-08-2009, 05:37
I think that chaos or cold one knights would be better since your only going to need 5 of them, plus there better models than the brett knights.

snurl
13-08-2009, 06:15
Well of course Blood Nights are worth $90.00 a box! You'll want at least 3 or 4 boxes to fill the unit out right and get that all important rank bonus! They say the Blood Night figures are cast only in the light of a full moon by virgin elf maidens, from only the purest fine pewter alloys heated by the fires from the earth's core itself! Run right out! Now! Before they get away! :wtf:

I think that maybe they make metal figures this expensive to encourage people to try more conversions.

AvariceX
13-08-2009, 06:32
I still think it's funny that Blood Knight units can be as large as twenty. It's as if the writers of the book knew preemptively that they were going to charge their worth in gold for the models... and they knew that somewhere out there would be the gamers with no sense of proper strategy who think a unit of 20 super-vampire-knights would be "totally awesome".

trapper
13-08-2009, 06:33
I think of it like this...I have a unit of 5 ogryns for my IG in 40k. Those things were $25 each. Now if I could have gotten em for $110 (blood knights box in canada) I'd have been happy. Now those BKs are the same $ each as an Ogryn, seems like a good deal when you look at the cost to cost value. And as already covered, its like buying a box of 5 heroes. I just got a couple heroes for my WE army and those were $16 and $18 each, for a metal model on foot, no massive mount of metal.

Now if you want to convert them thats well and good, but being so sarcastic about the cost is just wrong. They are no worse than anything else GW sells...but that's another thread all together.

ARabidNun
13-08-2009, 07:46
Several posts have pointed out that the cost equivalant is about that of a character model. Yes, but when are you going to be running 5 mounted vampire characters in a normal game? I understand that there is currently no mounted vampire BSB model, so this fits nicely, and there are only a few different mounted vampire character models which allows for more diveristy but it does not seems to justify buying anything more than the standard bearer, maybe the musician (I don't see the point with this unit really), otherwise its like paying for 4 extra character models.

I would strongly recommend your brother to make some conversions, or play with Black Knight replacements( in a friendly agreed game) to see if he likes them and if they are worth the investment.

I personally like the models GW made for the Blood Knights, but feel the gamezone models are more dynamic and have a sense of movement and vampiric quality to them.

Anyone arguing otherwise probably works for GW :p

Bloodknight
13-08-2009, 08:16
es, but when are you going to be running 5 mounted vampire characters in a normal game?

Once you field Blood Knights. ;)

I think their cost compared to the cost of an army isn't that bad; after all, a unit of 5 Blood Knights is roughly a quarter of a 2K army.

the_picto
13-08-2009, 12:27
As people have pointed out, the cost isn't as much as some other models. Bloodcrushers, for example, are 5 for 90 and the models are comparable. The main difference is that bloodknights need at least 4 per unit. They're expensive, but not more so than some other units.

If you don't fancy paying out for the proper ones, conversion opertunities are abundant. Empire knights, bretonian knights, chaos knights, dark elf knights and high elf knights are all popular choices. I've gone for converted bloodletters riding dire wolves, for a strigoi type bloodknight. At some point I will finish them and I will post them in the painting section.

moose
13-08-2009, 13:08
A box of 8 Knights of the Realm with the dragon helms, a cold colour scheme, and a couple of bits added here or there are very good blood knights.


Moose.

Dungeon_Lawyer
13-08-2009, 13:11
Blood knights are too expensive, great models, cool rules, terrible price.

If you must get them-go get them on ebay-76 bucks, free shipping, no tax, no gas, no gw employees bothering you.

Commodus Leitdorf
13-08-2009, 13:25
The models are completely metal, even the mount, so yes they are that expensive (and for what they are, that's about the cost I would expect). If the cost is an issue, just convert. Chaos Knights + Ghoul heads + a little filing of chaos icons = Blood knights

txamil
13-08-2009, 14:47
Gorenut, I do agree the Gamezone models are beautiful too, and would gladly (now that I'm no longer a student) would pay the asking price.

If you guys are students, I get it. I've always been a little surprised by the money complaints I hear on Warseer. And no, I'm not a lawyer or MBA grad or anything like that.

Morgrish the Malignant
13-08-2009, 14:54
I love the models, very nice sculpts, yet have to put them together and paint them (which will take a while), but I'm certainly looking forward to that project.

Have to say that I do second the post(s) on the Gamezone ones being even nicer, they just have even more feeling/atmosphere to them. But, as said, that will get you into trouble at GW tourneys.

I love good conversions but for this 'out of the box ones' make the finest BKs GW has to offer IMO. It's an investment, yes, but as a modeller/painter (I don't have people around to play) I found it definitely worth it (then again, I got mine at the Dutch 'games day' with a nice discount of about 20% I think).

Maybe a nice birthday/christmas present?

bullshiz20
13-08-2009, 19:01
Thanks for all the help guys!

Bac5665
13-08-2009, 19:15
I still think it's funny that Blood Knight units can be as large as twenty. It's as if the writers of the book knew preemptively that they were going to charge their worth in gold for the models... and they knew that somewhere out there would be the gamers with no sense of proper strategy who think a unit of 20 super-vampire-knights would be "totally awesome".

I guess you haven't seen the twenty BK deathstar. Put 3 Vampires in there, through in a Wight King with the Regen Banner, but the anti-shooting banner on the unit, and you have one of the most broken, least fun to play against things in warhammer. Seriously, it will win against just about anything, and the game is beyond unfun to play against.

AvariceX
13-08-2009, 20:47
I guess you haven't seen the twenty BK deathstar. Put 3 Vampires in there, through in a Wight King with the Regen Banner, but the anti-shooting banner on the unit, and you have one of the most broken, least fun to play against things in warhammer. Seriously, it will win against just about anything, and the game is beyond unfun to play against.

mmmmm dwarven flame cannons :)

But seriously, I had seen the death-star and while it is strong, it certainly has its counters. Also 20 BK's is 1100 points base, 245 for the WK, 50 for the command group, 75 for the banner, and a minimum of 125 each for the vampires (that's with no powers except dread knight or items at all), and that's assuming you only take hero vampires... so you're looking at 1745 points - minimum. In a 2k point game this unit will quite literally be the only thing in the army which can accomplish anything. Once it gets flanked and reared it loses combat like anything else, and you can't raise them back faster than 1 at a time (other than with the blood drinker, which might get you 3 if you're lucky).

Bac5665
13-08-2009, 22:30
mmmmm dwarven flame cannons :)

But seriously, I had seen the death-star and while it is strong, it certainly has its counters. Also 20 BK's is 1100 points base, 245 for the WK, 50 for the command group, 75 for the banner, and a minimum of 125 each for the vampires (that's with no powers except dread knight or items at all), and that's assuming you only take hero vampires... so you're looking at 1745 points - minimum. In a 2k point game this unit will quite literally be the only thing in the army which can accomplish anything. Once it gets flanked and reared it loses combat like anything else, and you can't raise them back faster than 1 at a time (other than with the blood drinker, which might get you 3 if you're lucky).

First of all, the whole point of it is to have qa 1 unit army. Second, good luck flank and rear charging it. With Van hells and Move 7, it will pick its battles for the most part. So, yes, it can be beat, but I don't know how to do it in an actual game scenario.

Cypher, the Emperor
14-08-2009, 10:24
I think that chaos or cold one knights would be better since your only going to need 5 of them, plus there better models than the brett knights.

Both of those things wouldnt work without extensive conversion. All the bretts need is a headswap an their good to go. Not to mention that they already have backround based ties (mousillon, blood keep).

AndyGI
14-08-2009, 12:22
I'm looking into using various bits services to make up some with cold one / dragon prices parts, daemonette heads and various other bits.

Other than that, some of the older blood dragon models on ebay could be gotten for cheap and converted?

ashc
14-08-2009, 12:45
I think that maybe they make metal figures this expensive to encourage people to try more conversions.

or to encourage you to buy their still overpriced plastics? :cool:

Well, I will take that back ever so slightly. Chaos Knights and Cold One Knights are good deals, IMO.

AndyGI
14-08-2009, 17:00
Actually, on top of that, if you painted them really nice, they're a decent investment, i'm sure a well painted unit could be re-sold for the price you paid for them at least.

Unless workshop do something like write them out of the next edition army book.

O&G'sRule
14-08-2009, 19:15
for 50 the models really aren't up to scratch, especially after seeing the mournful knights from gameone, also they don't fit together great either. Ruleswise they are great, though they might as well have targets painted on them as they always get the main focus at the start and attract ALOT of warmachines, magic and fanatics.

GraveGuard
14-08-2009, 20:01
I wouldn't reccomend the Blood Knight Figures except the Standard Bearer. The steeds are very nice though.
The faces and helmets of all but the Standard are terrible looking. Personally what I did was but the Standard bearer, stick my General on his horse and stick the standard on a regular barded nightmare and stick him in with plastic conversions from the Empire General Box set and Chaos Knights to make my Blood Knights.

ahk3927
15-08-2009, 01:49
For those of you who think Blood Knights are worth it's cost due to them being metal models, here are some food for thought.

Your favorite manufacturer does not think so. Remember what they said when they released Gold Sword Box? It's the quality work that GW produce and they charge for the beautiful sculpt.

I have converted a box of Chaos Knights with Grave Guards Heads, and they look fantastic.

On top of that, my blood knights cost me $22.

lachlin
15-08-2009, 03:39
Games Workshop hates you. Each and everyone of you. The 90 dollar price tag proves that.

TheZombieSquig
15-08-2009, 03:54
Blood knights are over-priced in money and over-rated in game terms.

The other three rare choices are much better IMO. With blood knights, you need to waste a lot of points and effort shielding them from baiting and keeping them alive.

Putty
15-08-2009, 12:03
i have seen successful conversions from a mix of darkelves and empire bits...

snurl
15-08-2009, 12:11
The Legend of the 5 Golden Vampires. reminds me of an old movie title.

Skywave
15-08-2009, 20:08
I must say that I would've probably convert them if I had to buy them at retail price. But since there's many way now to buy at discount, you can find some for relatively cheap. I got 2 box of them at about $55 (in US) each, so that was much better! The models itself are great (especially the steed), and when I'll build them I'll convert them to suit my need :)

Fobster
16-08-2009, 22:32
I found them to be pretty disappointing sculpts. They sounded cool when I read about them but I think the end result is a huge let down. The standard bearers horse looks like its on a ship hoist rather than on the ground. In Aus they are $150 per box thats $30 dollars each or around $26us dollars per. I've only ever played against converted versions of them or proxies. So It's safe to say GW priced themselves out of the marked on this one.

Shadowfax
16-08-2009, 23:59
I found them to be pretty disappointing sculpts. They sounded cool when I read about them but I think the end result is a huge let down. The standard bearers horse looks like its on a ship hoist rather than on the ground.
If you're talking about the one I think you're talking about, then you're wrong. It's one of the most dynamic models GW has under their belts.

We had a version of this discussion recently in the VC tactica.

- you should never be paying full retail price for something like this. go to ebay, gc-minis, the warstore, etc.

- if you break it down rationally instead of jumping to conclusions, BKs are not a ripoff by most standards. sculpt quality, the quantity of metal per fig, $$$:points ratio, etc. However, the VC have such awesome rare choices in general that the BKs' appeal suffers because they're unnecessary to most generals, who can do more with less

- i have never seen a BK conversion that looked even 1/4 as gorgeous as the actual models

- they are the most infuriating models you will ever put together

Rodman49
17-08-2009, 05:59
First and foremost, them being metal does not excuse their cost. Reaper (a competing manufacturer) recently lowered their prices on pewter models because metal prices have been dropping. GW in contrast raised the price on Blood Knights from $75 to $90. Seriously? WTF?

Secondly you should never ever compare prices between figures from the same manufacturer. Comparing the prices of Juggernauts for Blood Knights is not valid. Your comparing an overpriced model to another overpriced model.

As many other posters have noted you should be comparing the GW Blood Knights to the Gamezone Mournful Knights. They are both metal, both high quality, etc however the Gamezone Knights are about $25 cheaper and they even have to be imported from Spain.

I think the choice is blatantly obvious here guys - the Gamezone Knights are cheaper, look just as good (or better), and give money to GW's competitor which may cause them to lower prices in the future.

For that last reason alone any time you want to buy a model but find a similar model from another company for a comparable price you should always buy the model from the other company.

Shadowfax
17-08-2009, 07:46
Secondly you should never ever compare prices between figures from the same manufacturer. Comparing the prices of Juggernauts for Blood Knights is not valid. Your comparing an overpriced model to another overpriced model.

This is totally backwards, in my opinion. We all know GW is gouging us. That's just what they do. The important thing is to determine whether or not a given kit is gouging us at a higher percentage than another kit from the same manufacturer. That's the definition of a rip-off.

If you're going to compare GW prices to another company's wares then wouldn't you have to come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to buy exclusively from non-GW sources while still using the Warhammer ruleset?

edit: btw, the Gamezone models are admittedly sweet. But I would nevertheless bet on the Blood Knights if both sets of figs were blown up to lifesize proportions, imbued with a life-giving (or undeath-giving?) elixir, and pitted head-to-head in a deathmatch. They're just that sick.

The Red Scourge
17-08-2009, 09:48
At least the blood knights are better value for money than a McD meal ;)

Vermin-thing
17-08-2009, 10:39
At least the blood knights are better value for money than a McD meal ;)

QFT :)

If it's a ripoff don't buy it.

O&G'sRule
17-08-2009, 19:14
For that last reason alone any time you want to buy a model but find a similar model from another company for a comparable price you should always buy the model from the other company.

Games workshop give people somewhere to play the game which is very important, they also make people more aware of the hobby than any other company can possibly do, giving you a decent number of people to play and make use of your models, the shops alone mean GW have far bigger costs than gamezone so of course they are slightly more expensive, I think GW are fair. What you are suggesting is frankly dangerous to the whole hobby, the odd model or unit is fine as additions but other companies should not make up the bulk of your army.

Rodman49
17-08-2009, 20:47
Games workshop give people somewhere to play the game which is very important, they also make people more aware of the hobby than any other company can possibly do, giving you a decent number of people to play and make use of your models, the shops alone mean GW have far bigger costs than gamezone so of course they are slightly more expensive, I think GW are fair. What you are suggesting is frankly dangerous to the whole hobby, the odd model or unit is fine as additions but other companies should not make up the bulk of your army.

Games Workshop doesn't give me anywhere to play. In fact there are no hobby stores within a 50 mile radius of where I live (and I live in a fairly populated area). I shouldn't have to pay more for GW store upkeep because I receive absolutely 0% benefit.

What I'm suggesting for the hobby is necessary to keep prices down and quality of product up. Get you some capitalism man.

ahk3927
17-08-2009, 23:18
Games workshop give people somewhere to play the game which is very important, they also make people more aware of the hobby than any other company can possibly do, giving you a decent number of people to play and make use of your models, the shops alone mean GW have far bigger costs than gamezone so of course they are slightly more expensive, I think GW are fair. What you are suggesting is frankly dangerous to the whole hobby, the odd model or unit is fine as additions but other companies should not make up the bulk of your army.

GW does offer a place for people to play the game. However, their gaming tables are for the people who play 40K. Most WHF players don't go to GW to play games.

Shadowfax
18-08-2009, 01:53
There are also people who choose not to play at GW, because of the pg-13 atmosphere, shameless upselling, unwashed stench minions, etc.