PDA

View Full Version : What would you like to see in a "Inquisition" Codex?



Wolf Scout Ewan
13-08-2009, 01:39
Hey Everyone!

I'd like to start a discussion of what we all would expect from an all in one Inquisition Codex. This means that all three Ordo's in one book with interchangeable units.

Inquisitors
Three or four levels/ranks of Inquisitor. 1 - 4 total from any combination of the Ordos. Multiple Inquisitors from the same Ordo do not count to the Force Chart.
A very large number of psychic powers that will allow the to buff their forces, kill enemy psychers, combat kill deamon and their own psychic stuffs.
A very large selection of weapons and other wargear such as Gyrinx and Xeno Hunting dogs.
They may have a retinue that would require a mixture of their own Stormtroopers, guardsmen, sisters of battle, bodyguards, pets and familiars and Cogboys (tamed ad mech hehe).
Sisters Canonness.
Grey Knights Captain/Chapter Commander.
Death Watch Commander (with bonus special rules for taking them from a particular Chapter

Elites
Elites could be taken from all three Ordos if there is their particular order Inquisitor/Commander in the army. These would be things like Sisters, Grey Kinght and Death Watch Elites.
Assassins! We have the four we have now but there are a couple more they could use like the poisons one which eludes me.
Xenos Teams if a OrdoX inquisitor is present.
Veteran Stormtrooper squads simliar to the d-99.
Daemonhosts, Arcoflagellants, (improved) Penitent Engines. All depending on certain upgrades taken by the HQ units.
Inquisitorial Disruption Squads to screw with the enemy comms and or special rules. Delaying reinforcements for example or Reducing the command sphere of influence from enemy commanders.


Troops
Typically the standard choice would be Inquis Stormtroopers, who would have to be a lil bit better than the standard Guard versions. This could include "heavy assault teams" with specialised anti psyker/deamon/xenos weaons
Then you have things like the Militant Orders like sisters of battle units, Grey Knights and Deathwatch squads.
Paraiah Stormtrooper squads.
Penitent/Last Chancers (like in the IG codex)
Psykers squads (like in the IG codex)
Adeptus Arsebiters er sorry I mean Arbities

Fast Attack
Death Watch Landspeeders and bikes.
Sisters of Battle In rhino
Valkyrie mounted stormtroops
Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Sentinels
Sisters of Battle Immolators
Servo Skull disruption teams/swarms.

Heavy Stuff... er I mean Heavy support
Adeptus Mechanicus experimental weapons and vehicles Robots? Ooooh!
Grey Knight Land Raiders
Sisters of Battle Tanks
Inquisitorial Heavy Servitor squads
Inquisitorial Heavy support teams with single man portable heavy weapons.
Valkyrie Vendettas
Vulture Gunships
Tracked and Land Artillery platforms (hehe anti grav hurricane or vulcan mega bolter)
Nasty Lance strikes from orbit (the only way to be sure)

What would you like to see?

EDIT: I've updated with others suggestions and I would just like to add this by ChaosX0omega

the point of the HQ based army lists. It basically creates a handful of sublists(Ordo Xenos, Deathwatch, Ordo Xenos w/ Deathwatch, Ordo Malleus, Grey Knights, Ordo Malleus w/ Grey Knights, Ordo Hereticus, Sisters of Battle, Ordo Hereticus w/ Sisters of Battle). So the codex would probably have an extended development cycle to compensate for this, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad (although you would have to probaby have to limit it in an additional manner to prevent things like Ordo Xenos w/ Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle in order to keep things fluffy and simpler (although I would fully encourage something like Deathwatch w/ Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle)).

Many thanx for all the replies everyone! I've enjoyed reading your opinions!!:p

canucklhead
13-08-2009, 02:20
Without going into any really specific detail, this is what I would like to see from the Ordo's book. Or Inquisition book, however you name it.

The army should be the most varied in the game, potentially consisting of almost anything from the forces of the Imperium. These should cost a little more, or come with pre-requisites, so you don't get too much cheese. The Core HQ should be Inquisitors and an Inquisition specific retinue, and should be geared towards fighting Daemons, cults, and heretics.

An important aspect should be some sort of penalty imposed on the non HQ forces, reflecting the fact that they have been grabbed with little notice, and litteraly shang haied into this force. They have no experience working with each other, likely a dire lack of confidence in their fellow units, and often a lack of training working with said units.

So to sumarize, I think the Inquisition as a whole should have the biggest bag of toys, the best HQ the Imperium can field, but little in the way of "wow that's pure win", units.

Examples.

HQ. Grey knights Commander.
Fielding a GK HQ allows you to field any unit from the space marines codex, as the GK's respect the martial prowess of their brother marines above all others. As these forces are often recruited at a moment's notice, any wargear or special weapons will costs x in addition to the usual cost.

Things like this would likely convince me to build a force. Choosing your HQ, and having it unlock a list of potential units for your army.

just my thoughts on it anyhoo

Havock
13-08-2009, 02:24
An important aspect should be some sort of penalty imposed on the non HQ forces, reflecting the fact that they have been grabbed with little notice, and litteraly shang haied into this force. They have no experience working with each other, likely a dire lack of confidence in their fellow units, and often a lack of training working with said units.


Except that would be absolutely contrary to fluff. Inquistorial stormtroopers are what IG stormies wanted to be, but couldn't :p Retinues are not shang-haied, they are individuals with varying degrees of combat experience, but with a lot of experience in their chosen field.
A small, elite, hard-as-nails army that fights on their own terms... Most of the time.

LordAzaroth
13-08-2009, 02:25
I'd just love to see all three Ordos thrown together and good wargear and awesome choices, and I'd like to keep the no GK with inducted SM as SM are rare assests indeed. and of course some more buffs to the PAGK statline.

Don't know 'bout the Nuns with Guns though.

Firaxin
13-08-2009, 02:46
Personally, I'd prefer seeing Codex: Inquisition as a stand alone rather than a mishmash of IG & SM stuff. Plus, the AdMech doesn't really have to do what the Inquisition tells it to do, they have their own version of the Inquisition, and the two are pretty wary of each other, so it's unlikely they'd be in an Inquisition 'dex. Besides, I want a standalone AdMech codex too, dammit!



Inquisitors
Three or four levels of Inquisitor. 1 - 4 total from any combination of the Ordos. Multiple Inquisitors from the same Ordo do not count to the Force Chart.
When you say levels, you mean ranks? Don't see why we need much more than the two we have already--Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords. If you're talking about types... well I could potentially see 3 or 6. Malleus, Xenos, and Hereticus; plus a Radical version of each. Depending on what you take as your HQ, different FOC slots are unlocked.


A very large number of psychic powers that will allow the to buff their forces, kill enemy psychers, combat kill deamon and their own psychic stuffs.
I honestly don't see them using that many psychic powers unless they're a more radical Hereticus or Malleus Inquisitor. Blanks as individual retinue members are far more likely than whole combat squads of them.


A very large selection of weapons.
Agreed. :cool:


They may have a retinue that would require a mixture of their own Stormtroopers, guardsmen, sisters of battle, bodyguards, pets and familiars and Cogboys.
Cogboys, no. Servitors, yes. I could see a marine, too.


Elites
Elites could be taken from all three Ordos if there is their particular order Inquisitor in the army. These would be things like Sisters, Grey Kinght and Death Watch Commanders.
Assassins! We have the four we have now but there are a couple more they could use like the poisons one which eluds me.
Xenos Mercenaries, Daemonhosts, Arcoflagellants, Penitent Engines, and the like should also go here.


Troops
Typically the standard choice would be Inquis Stormtroopers, who would have to be a lil bit better than the standard Guard versions.
Yes, perhaps by having access to special gear, like alien/warp tech, and repulsor things that allow them to take shorter ranged but Assault heavy weapons.

What about Arbites? It would be really cool to have an Arbite squad with LOS & Cover Save ignoring Executioner Shotguns, and/or with Suppression Shields and Power Mauls.


Armies wit Inquis Xenos Inquisitors would allow the use of ALien allies that are loyal to the emporer, like a Merc Tau Team, Terrelian Dog Soldiers, or some totally new Xenos that have seen the light of the emporer. Maybe some new cat aliens?
Personally don't think xenos belong in the Troops section. Even Radicals wouldn't make them the mainstay of the army. Also, Tarrellian Dog soldiers hate the Imperium, and wouldn't work for it even if they could find a human who didn't want to kill them on sight.

Xenos that make sense: Alaitoc Pathfinders (have been known to settle among humans), Harlequins, Kommandos & Flash Gits (Blood Axe orks, one of the few to use camo and the like, has traded with the Imperium on occasion, and have been used by the Imperium as mercenaries), kroot (mercenaries), dark eldar pirates (mercenaries), etc.


Paraiah Stormtrooper squads.
Rather than just make them stormtroopers (training a blank to rush into the enemy's fortified lines doesn't make much sense) why not have a Sisters of Silence unit? They're all blanks, they crew the Black Ships, etc. Probably be better as an Elite or something.


Psykers squads (like in the IG codex)
Sure. Maybe not as troops though. We don't want all the good units as troops, or we'll never be able to take them all.

One thing I've thought of is allowing Radical Hereticus inquisitors to use Alpha Level psykers as a Heavy Support option.


Fast Attack
Death Watch Landspeeders and bikes.
Sisters of Battle In rhino
Valkyrie mounted stormtroops
Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Sentinels
Sisters of Battle Immolators
How about a squad of servo-skulls? Like that swarm of servo-skull assassins that tried to assassinate Caiphas Cain in one of those books. They'd be like Tau Gun Drones, but with Imperial weapons.


Heavy Stuff... er I mean Heavy support
Adeptus Mechanicus experimental weapons and vehicles Robots? Ooooh!
No, unfortunately.


Grey Knight Land Raiders
+ Deathwatch Dreadnoughts (confirmed in Headhunted) and Terminators?


Sisters of Battle Tanks
Inquisitorial Heavy Servitor squads
Inquisitorial Heavy support teams with single man portable heavy weapons.
Again with repulsor tech on the heavy guns?


VAlkyrie Vendettas
Personally I'd rather see Vultures than Vendettas. Just increases the gap between Codex: Inquisition and Codex: IG.

You forgot Orbital Strikes as a Heavy thing.

e2055261
13-08-2009, 02:59
I guess the main thing that I'd like to see is a codex that isn't just a mixture of imperial guard and space marines. I'm not really familiar with the inquisition but the stuff i like the most are the most ludircrous - things that are really over the top like the penitent engine and exorcist missiles. Let's not forget also that it tends to be the models that fuel a codex - the best inquisition models should attract the most shock value if you know what i mean.

warchild9
13-08-2009, 03:27
an Inquisition codex actually come out so all the "Inquisition" players do not use a Dex that is from 3rd ed. and an all sister of battle army

Shatter
13-08-2009, 05:15
I'd personally like to see Sisters of Battle get their own codex--because despite the "Nuns with Guns" tag, I feel like there's enough variety there to expand and give them their own book. I won't see it, because Adepta Sororitas don't seem to sell well enough in my LGS (I'm the only one)--but it'd be nice.

As far as Sisters --
*ALL Sisters going up to WS 4
*If they keep Repentia , lose Holy Rage and gaining a 4+ FNP, +1 Str on the charge, possibly fleet
*I'd almost like to see Exorcists having a small blast, but that doesn't fall in line with the superkrak profile, I suppose. I can live with it the way it is now, though.
*Repressors built into the main codex with FA 12 instead of FA11.
*Keeping the 5+ Shields of Faith
* Penitent Engines need a major overhaul--they're gimped Dreads without any weapons options.
* A reason to take Celestians. I just don't see them as very useful.

For Daemonhunters -
* Grey Hunters need an overhaul

For Deathwatch -
* A real codex?

trapper
13-08-2009, 05:33
The biggest thing I want to see is plastic Sisters. I've always liked their fluff and looks...but I hate metal and use plastic as much as I can.

But as for the book I'd just like the basic updates on both current books rolled into one. And as others have covered add restrictions. GKs can only be troops if you take a GK HQ or some such. Storm troopers as troops only if you take an inquisitor, etc. Same as only taking GKs OR sisters. Just to keep it from being a total mixer of different units.

Grand Master Raziel
13-08-2009, 05:59
One of the last things I'd want to see GW print is a combined Inquisitorial dex. I'd rather go on using my 3rd edition Codex: Daemonhunters than have all three Ordos shoved into one book. There is absolutely no way one book could do any individual Ordo adequately if it has to share space with two others, unless it was practically as large as the main rulebook.

The idea of a combined Inquisitorial dex seems like a good idea on a superficial level because of all the units the current two =I= dexes share in common. However, Codex: Witch Hunters sports a pretty well fleshed out Sisters of Battle dex, and Codex: Daemonhunters at least has a lot of Grey Knight Heavy Support choices. Likely, a lot of good stuff would get axed from both lists. Plus, there would be precious little room for the Radical factions of each of the Ordos, and that's something I'd like to see expanded on. As big a fan as I am of Grey Knights, I think it should be possible to put together a Radicals list totally comprised of units from Codex: Daemonhunters without having to have no Fast Attack and only a 0-1 Heavy Support that totally sucks (the Orbital Strike). Ditto Witch Hunters, although the Radical player is a little better off there, because there's at least the Penitent Engine in Heavy Support.

Instead of a combined Inquisitorial dex that does a poor job of representing any of the individual Ordos, I'd rather see updates of Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Witch Hunters. That includes more Radicals stuff for both, more HQ choices, a GK Fast Attack choice that actually deserves to be in Fast Attack, GK Dreads in the Elites category, maybe GK Predators. I'd like to see the prices for Inquisitiorial henchmen and gear get brought down, because they're currently far too expensive for what they do. Also, based on the premise that future dexes probably will not feature any sort of Allies rule, I'd like to see inducted IG units in the dexes.

As far as the Ordo Xenos goes, there's already a dex for that: Codex: Space Marines. Seriously, Sternguard are just an improved version of the old Deathwatch Kill Team. Plus, with a fighting arm comprised largely of Space Marines, how in the heck do you make that book all that much different from Codex: Space Marines anyway?

Mind you, if GW is willing to produce an Inquisitorial dex the size of the main rulebook, then I'd be perfectly happy to buy that, provided it did justice to each arm of the Inquisition, or at least to Daemonhunters, because that's the one I have a personal stake in. However, that's a gargantuan "if".

big squig
13-08-2009, 06:24
Yes, very much so. And I don't think sisters deserve their own book. A couple of their units are ones that all ordos should have, like arco-flagellants. Anyone who's played Inquisitor knows that its more than the heriticus that use these guys.

I also think INQ doesn't need guard or marine allies. Just make one book that can stand on it's own. If they split up chaos and daemons, they can split up INQ and guard/marines.

Enfid
13-08-2009, 06:45
As far as the Ordo Xenos goes, there's already a dex for that: Codex: Space Marines. Seriously, Sternguard are just an improved version of the old Deathwatch Kill Team. Plus, with a fighting arm comprised largely of Space Marines, how in the heck do you make that book all that much different from Codex: Space Marines anyway?


Codex Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templar? I didn't disagree nor agreed with you, but variants of Space Marines HAVE been done.

grissom2006
13-08-2009, 07:46
Nice idea to put in in one codex but completely none pratical the book would start running into the thickness of the BRB or a IA Book. Once all the backgrounds Armoury, actual Army List and Miniture Section gets added into it. I also picture people mix and matching the whole thing up into a mish mash force which would kill it for me.

Axel
13-08-2009, 14:39
The Inquisition should concentrate on - well, surprise - the Inquisitor and all the stuff that is exlcusive to them.

Units of the Ecclesiarchy (Sisters of Battle), the Adeptus Astartes (including Grey Knights) or the Imperial Army and PDF should imho NOT be part of this book, or it would get either out of hand in size, or would reduce such forces to a mere rump.

What they need are good rules to INDUCT other Imperial forces, like: can cooperate with any of these if they take one HQ from the list. Or Inquisitors can take just ONE unit from the elite/standard/storm of any Imperial Codex. Anything along that line that keeps the army "Inquisitoriral", and is not just an abuse to combine the strength of different Imperial forces while evading their weaknesses.

Some forces that are unique to the Inquisition can, however, be part of the book, like eg. the usage of large numbers of Adeptus Arbites, or even the Deathwatch (OX only), or a lot of fancy stuff for their wider retinue or private armies.

Other codizes that I want and that would go very well with "Inquisitors" are
Codex Ecclesiarchy - Adeptus Sororitas and whatever the Church gets away with
Grey Knights - Well, its just another CM ordo codex.
Codex Adeptus Mechanicus - The Cogboys and all their fancy tools, supported by an FW line of models...

Grand Master Raziel
13-08-2009, 16:47
I also think INQ doesn't need guard or marine allies. Just make one book that can stand on it's own. If they split up chaos and daemons, they can split up INQ and guard/marines.

The problem with that is that a Radical DH army without inducted IG or allied Marines would pretty much suck. You've got a lot of choice in the Elite category, but no choice in HQ or Troops (having only Inqy Lords and ISTs, respectively), no options at all for Fast Attack, and the only thing you can take from Heavy Support is the Orbital Strike. Having used the Orbital Strike, I can tell you it's more like taking a 60-80pt handicap than paying for something of actual benefit. I think my Orbital Strikes have killed more points of my own stuff than of my opponents'. So, if you take out the option to take IG/SM units, then you'd need to add stuff to the dex to make the Radical lists viable by themselves, and that means having options in Fast Attack, and something better in Heavy Support than the Orbital Strike, which shouldn't be hard because that's not setting the bar very high. Heck, it's practically digging a trench for the bar and burying it.



Codex Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templar? I didn't disagree nor agreed with you, but variants of Space Marines HAVE been done.

Fair enough, but A: Blood Angels and Dark Angels aren't really all that much different from regular Marines and B: the Deathwatch would be largely comprised of codex and near-codex volunteers, and would probably wind up organizing themselves in a similar fashion.

Plus, having a specialization in alien-fighting sounds all well and good, but aliens run the gamut from Grots to Wraithlords, so effectively what you need is a balanced, take-all-comers army, and as such would look little different than a standard Codex: Space Marines list.

Another thing to consider is that any new Inquisition book(s) has to support all existing models. For instance, the OP left out Seraphim, and I think most SoB players would go into a killing rage if Seraphim got dropped from their list. I'd be pretty ticked off if Daemonhosts got dropped, because they're the heart and soul of my Radical DH force - they are, in fact, the whole point of playing that force. Having just Inquisitors as HQs would tick practically everybody off, because a lot of us prefer our SoB/Grey Knight heroines/heros. About the only unit from either existing dex you might be able to drop out is Dominions (their options could be folded into Retributors), but that's taking something out of Fast Attack, which would be the one category where there'd be no need to drop anything, because with existing dexes, you're talking a total of 3 units, of which one could simply be a Troops choice now - there are enough armies where everything has the option to Deep Strike for GK-Troops DSing to be unremarkable.

So, in order to not **** off the fan base, an combined =I= dex would have to not drop anything. To justify the dex, GW would have to come up with new models, though they could probably get away with plastic versions of the existing units. Plus, you have to come up with a list for the Ordo Xenos and shoehorn that in as well. I think the main reason we haven't yet seen an Ordo Xenos list is that no one at GW has any idea how to make such a list that wouldn't simply be a carbon-copy of Codex: Space Marines. You also have to make it possible to play stand-alone Radical armies that don't need to draw from other Imperial dexes. Finally, you have to do all this in a way where everything is balanced both internally and against the other dexes in the system. I don't see how that would be possible.

Hrw-Amen
13-08-2009, 20:53
I would love to see an all SOB book. I have a massive SOB army and have waited for a new codex for them for a very long time. Having said tt if they are mixed in with a general Inquisition codex then there should at least be the possibilty of taking an entire SOB force within it. I would like to see more use of tanks by SOB though as these are the two things that I like best about the w40K range. Plastic SOB would be fantastic! And more of the non militant orders, just for the variety of models.

Xelloss
13-08-2009, 22:42
Sisters, zealots, priests, arco-flagellant and co should go in codex : ecclesiarchy
GK should go in codex : Grey Knight
Inquisition and officio assassinorum should be rethought (EDIT : damned past form) on how they can be fit in WH40K. They are overpriced and too much specialized. Maybe GW should make a codex exclusively for units that can be taken in any imperium army, and give up trying to hammerfit them into a stand-alone army...

grissom2006
13-08-2009, 22:58
I would love to see an all SOB book. I have a massive SOB army and have waited for a new codex for them for a very long time. Having said tt if they are mixed in with a general Inquisition codex then there should at least be the possibilty of taking an entire SOB force within it. I would like to see more use of tanks by SOB though as these are the two things that I like best about the w40K range. Plastic SOB would be fantastic! And more of the non militant orders, just for the variety of models.

you don't need a stand alone Codex for SoB the WH Codex works fine for them my 5000pts of them manage perfectly well as the rules stand and i don't have a Inquistor unit in that.

sabreu
13-08-2009, 23:02
I would like to the ability to create Ad-Mech explorator warbands within the Codex.

AmasNagol
13-08-2009, 23:03
Nothing that wears power armour.

chaos0xomega
14-08-2009, 00:14
Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, and Deathwatch are all the chamber militant of their respective Inquisitorial Ordo, and therefore should NOT have their own books, since although they can technically perform operations WIHTOUT an Inquisitor, they're primary purpose is to provide their respective Inquisitorial Ordo's with a heavy hitting specialized strike force when **** hits the fan. You can complain all you want about SoB not originally being chamber miltants and retcons, oh well DEAL WITH IT.

Anyway, moving on, I'd like to see a codex focused on the Inquisition and their chamber militants, individual codecies by Ordo would be best, but I'll take what I can get. What I don't want to see is a mixture of SMurfs, IG, and other random stuff. Leave that for Apoc (or do it but then you have to give us a real Lost and the Damned army list damnit!).

The list should be determined by HQ choices taken. Options should be Inquisitor (with different ranks) and a chamber militant subcommander(also with different ranks). The Inquisitor gets you access to all non-chamber militant units (+ chamber militant troops choices BUT ONLY troops choices) and specialist units of their respective ordos (again, non-chamber-militant). The chamber militant subcommander gets you access to all chamber-miltant forces of the respective chamber militant.

So, for example, a Daemonhunter Inquisitor will get you access to Grey Knight Troops, Daemonhosts, Assassins, Inqusitorial Storm Troopers, and whatever other random Inquisitorial units are released, while taking Grey Knight commander will get you access to all Grey Knight units in the book. You can take the chamber-militant commander without the Inquisitor to field a pure chamber militant force.

Number 24
14-08-2009, 01:03
The list should be determined by HQ choices taken. Options should be Inquisitor (with different ranks) and a chamber militant subcommander(also with different ranks). The Inquisitor gets you access to all non-chamber militant units (+ chamber militant troops choices BUT ONLY troops choices) and specialist units of their respective ordos (again, non-chamber-militant). The chamber militant subcommander gets you access to all chamber-miltant forces of the respective chamber militant.


This is the best idea so far in this thread.

I think the "sub-commander" role could be filled by a special character in a troops or elite unit choice as well. Think of the sub-commander as a low-ranking officer of the chamber militant and not necessarily a full fledged HQ choice (like the squad commanders in the IG codex). This way, the chambers militant HQ choices could be more fully-developed as standalone HQs worthy of leading the dedicated chamber militant-only armies.

As for the size of the book, you could get all three ordos into a codex without compromising quality. It might be 160-180 pages long, but it could work if the fluff at the front of the book for all three ordos was reorganized into a cohesive whole rather than three separate sections.

The only real complaint would be that this codex would easily offer the largest range of possibilities for army creation (especially if they retained the rules for conscripting IG and SM). Really, there'd be about 12 different army types you could create just in the faction choices alone. When all is said and done, there would be hundreds of potentially viable (or potentially munchie) armies in this one codex. It could be a real nightmare to try and balance.

I think that is the primary reason why I wouldn't expect GW to combine them.

chaos0xomega
14-08-2009, 01:46
24, thats the point of the HQ based army lists. It basically creates a handful of sublists(Ordo Xenos, Deathwatch, Ordo Xenos w/ Deathwatch, Ordo Malleus, Grey Knights, Ordo Malleus w/ Grey Knights, Ordo Hereticus, Sisters of Battle, Ordo Hereticus w/ Sisters of Battle). So the codex would probably have an extended development cycle to compensate for this, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad (although you would have to probaby have to limit it in an additional manner to prevent things like Ordo Xenos w/ Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle in order to keep things fluffy and simpler (although I would fully encourage something like Deathwatch w/ Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle)).

Axel
14-08-2009, 20:11
Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, and Deathwatch are all the chamber militant of their respective Inquisitorial Ordo,

Errrr... no.

The Adeptus Sororita is the chamber militant of the Ecclesiarchy, which means the church, not any Inquisitorial Ordo. They are eager to help out, but that does not mean that they are their troops.

And afaik the Grey Knights are a chapter of the Adeptus Arbites - a special chapter, certainly, with special tasks, equipment, training and geneseed, but nonetheless not really more under the command of the Inquisition then any other chapter. They could act on their own if their master is so inclined, and could decide not to act.


So both are as entitled to their own Codex as any of the other chapters is... or not, if GW decides that while independent they usually do show up in connection with Inquisitorial involvement.

I agree with the Deathwatch, however, and with the idea that a HQ choice of any Imperial army should allow for unit choices of that given army. There is not really any need to put said army in the actual Inquisition-Codex. What we need is a rule to induct forces of the Imperium to the service of the Emperor as represented by the Inquisition.

Cry of the Wind
14-08-2009, 20:38
Sorry Axel, I think you've missed some fluff. The Grey Knights have nothing to do with Arbites for one, they are Space Marines not police. The Sisters have been offically made into the standing army of the Ecclesiarchy while also being the chamber militant of the Ordos Hereticus.

The whole point of the chamber militant is to provide the Inquisition with troops who have the training and equipment to handle the various threats facing the Imperium. Sisters of Battle are trained to resist psychic attack and have the faith and zeal needed to purge the corrupt without hesitation. The Grey Knights have their souls and bodies guarded against the daemon and the training to fight them. The Deathwatch have the equipment and training needed to deal with special xenos threats. While they may not always be at the beck and call of any Inquisitor, they all exist to further the goals of the Inquisition.

Sisters of Battle are less Inquisitorial simply by the nature of their creation and mandate. They have dual roles. Grey Knights and Deathwatch do not, they may fight without Inquisitors and not answer to them directly but they are Inquisition troops. Grey Knights and Deathwatch are not investigators, they rely on the Inquisition to locate targets that require their skills. Basically Grey Knights and Deathwatch don't just float around hoping some deamons or deadly xenos show up, they are requested by Inquisitors and answer the call if they believe they are needed.

chaos0xomega
14-08-2009, 20:53
Errrr... no.

The Adeptus Sororita is the chamber militant of the Ecclesiarchy, which means the church, not any Inquisitorial Ordo. They are eager to help out, but that does not mean that they are their troops.

And afaik the Grey Knights are a chapter of the Adeptus Arbites - a special chapter, certainly, with special tasks, equipment, training and geneseed, but nonetheless not really more under the command of the Inquisition then any other chapter. They could act on their own if their master is so inclined, and could decide not to act.




The Adepta Sororitas and Sisters of Battle are two different things. Adepta Sororitas are an all-woman religious organization within the Ecclesiarchy. The Sisters of Battle are a miltant subdivision of the Adepta Sororitas, and have become the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus as of the Convocation of Nephilim.

And while Grey Knights are Adeptus ASTARTES, they are in fact chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus, which makes them more under the command of the Inquisition than most/all other chapters, although still capable of acting independently, when an Inquisitor calls they MUST act.

Cry of the Wind
14-08-2009, 21:10
The Adepta Sororitas and Sisters of Battle are two different things.

Not exactly true. The Adepta Sororitas is the collective title of all the sisterhoods together. Included (and most numerous) are the battle sisters of the Orders Militant. They provide security for the Ecclesiarchy and are its soliders in holy wars. The pacts made during the Age of Apostasy allow the Ordos Hereticus to demand the servies of the Adepta Sororitas at any time as the Ordos' Chamber Militant.

chaos0xomega
14-08-2009, 22:40
meh, close enough.

Lord Merlin
14-08-2009, 23:41
HQ: Inquisitor, upgraded to specific ordos. GK hero, SoB hero, and Deathwatch captain
Xenos inquisitor: 0-1 Deathwatch kill teams as troops
Malleus inquisitor: 0-1 GK squads
Hereticus inquisitor: 0-1 Sob squad

GK hero: removes 0-1 limit on GK squads, lets you take GK terminators for elites
SoB cannoness: remove 0-1 limit on SoB squads, lets you take celestians as elites and Seraphim as fast attack
DeathWatch Captain: Removes 0-1 limit for deathwatch KTs, let you take specialized death watch units

That's pretty much my contribution. Specialized inquisitor unlocks assassins and a few of their ordos chamber militants. Chamber militant HQs remove any limits on their ordos' chamber militants.

OanMkoll
14-08-2009, 23:51
If they could make it condensed enough, I'd like to see all 3 Ordos in 1 book. I mean, the SM got a 144-Page book, so why can't the =I= book be of similar size? The SM book has loads of Fluff in it and tons of units, so I think an =I= codex would have a few more choices than Marines but less fluff pages. Also, for Radicals, how much crap do you really think they need! Daemonhosts and 1-2 more similar units plus a couple special rules and wargear and bam, done. You might need special rules for the 3 types of Radicals, but that's all IMO. I don't know if this makes any sense, but all I'm trying to say is that everybody thinks that the 3 Ordos need 100 pages each (which would make the combined dex as big as the Big Rulebook) and I think that's ridiculous. With each Ordo getting about 50 pages each it would be equal in size to the SM codex and have PLENTY of room for each IMO.

With the sublists, it might make things a little too powerful, but I could see them allowing special characters or something to allow you to take certain things as Troops. I'd WANT lots of sub-lists, but realistically thinking I'm guessing rules on special characters would help make distinct armies.

Altair
15-08-2009, 00:14
I'd just settle for any new Inquisition codex and a few plastic minis tbh.

What I'd REALLY want to see tho would be how GW would include all 3 ordos + radicals (and possibly allies) into one book, while doing justice to cover all 3 ordos well. 3 Books is probably the better option to do.

In terms of armylist selection in one book I'm guessing easiest way would be to limit what units you can have based on your HQ. For one this would restrict the player to a themed force (which at the most is made up of two inquisitorial factions). As shown:

HQ
0-2 Inquisitor Lord (1 each of malleus, xenos, herecticus)
0-1 Grey Knight Captain (grants access to grey knights units)
0-1 Deathwatch Captain (grants access to deathwatch units)
0-1 Sisiter of Battle Cannoness (grants access to sisiters of battle units)

If Grey Knights are present, no radical malleus (i.e daemonhost) units may be taken. Same would go for xenos units in deathwatch.

Rest of codex to be a mix of the daemonhunter and witchhunter codexs, with some units/special rules streamlined.

Also add:

Deep-strike or Infiltrate for stormtrooper units

Deathwatch Kill-teams as Troops. Maybe Deathwatch Assasult Squad for fast. Possible some xenos unit for radical Ordo Xenos?

Maybe add inducted guard platoon/ local PDF platoon? Would only be one codex entry, adds some extra (cheap) bodies for the player and would only then need the guard codex for adding the extra 'flash' units like sentinels/ leman russ etc- which is probably best run as a guard army with Inquisition allies anyway.

LordAzaroth
15-08-2009, 00:16
If they could make it condensed enough, I'd like to see all 3 Ordos in 1 book. I mean, the SM got a 144-Page book, so why can't the =I= book be of similar size? The SM book has loads of Fluff in it and tons of units, so I think an =I= codex would have a few more choices than Marines but less fluff pages. Also, for Radicals, how much crap do you really think they need! Daemonhosts and 1-2 more similar units plus a couple special rules and wargear and bam, done. You might need special rules for the 3 types of Radicals, but that's all IMO. I don't know if this makes any sense, but all I'm trying to say is that everybody thinks that the 3 Ordos need 100 pages each (which would make the combined dex as big as the Big Rulebook) and I think that's ridiculous. With each Ordo getting about 50 pages each it would be equal in size to the SM codex and have PLENTY of room for each IMO.

QFT.
Listen to this man, for he is wise to the ways of the Inquisition. Grey Knights just need a few more things and specific wargear. Fluff for every unit is a page at best, and I believe SM have 3 page Elites and 3 page Fast Attack for their Army List, so why the hell can't we get some love. Still don't know much about the Hereticus, and literally with some skilled copying and tweaks, bam, Sternguard into Deathwatch. I think the reason GW hasn't done our codexes is because they're waiting, patiently, to make our dreams come true(Hopefully, or they might meet the bad end of a Psycannon)

Altair
15-08-2009, 00:19
everybody thinks that the 3 Ordos need 100 pages each (which would make the combined dex as big as the Big Rulebook) and I think that's ridiculous. With each Ordo getting about 50 pages each it would be equal in size to the SM codex and have PLENTY of room for each IMO.

The old daemon hunter and witch hunter are what 90 pages each?
That includes all the 'hobby' section and the rules for adversries (which while fun get very little use in my experience)

So I guess a combined codex could cut the page number down to around 200, but with 3 ordos its gonna be a very cramped book with special rules, multiple background sections, special characters and wargear pages, and thats without adding new units for xeno-hunters ad various radical units.

Still one book COULD be done!

chaos0xomega
15-08-2009, 01:02
Oh, I forgot to mention, I'd like to see them keep some of the hero-hammer aspects of the current codecies. To me the Inquisition is all about a handful of badass characters.

AmasNagol
15-08-2009, 01:09
They would literally have to have everything in the current two codices, plus a bunch of new Xenos stuff, plus a completely new allies list.

And then the wargear section would be about 10 pages long.

I can't see it all fitting into one book that wouldn't cost about 20

Firaxin
15-08-2009, 01:41
The great thing about the current and future dexes is that wargear doesn't exist. :p

OanMkoll
15-08-2009, 03:19
The old daemon hunter and witch hunter are what 90 pages each?
That includes all the 'hobby' section and the rules for adversries (which while fun get very little use in my experience)



Witch Hunters is 64 TOTAL, while Daemonhunters is 67. Just crop the fluff a bit and condense the army entries for less fluff and and more about the rules. Have somewhere like 3/4 pages per Ordo for pure fluff, and it's about 60 pages for ALL of the different units and special rules (Keep in mind, even if EACH unit took up 2 pages, we'd still have more units than any other army!), 15 or so for army list entries, 3 for Armory (sorry, I'm from California and we spell differently...:angel:), and 10 pages for showcase models and such. We're only at 100 pages now so we could add some pages on tactics and sample armies. See? Now it's a normal, Codex-sized book. Easy.

P.S. 10 pages for Special Characters and their rules. Now we're at 120 with extras AND room to spare!

AmasNagol
15-08-2009, 03:30
The great thing about the current and future dexes is that wargear doesn't exist. :p

All of my current codices have sections explaining what all the wargear mentioned in them actually does.

Firaxin
15-08-2009, 03:55
Now it's a normal, Codex-sized book. Easy.
And you're not even factoring in the Inquisitor fluff and unit entries and the wargear that overlap. I think. I dunno, had too much to drink.

The overlap for assassins alone is like 1/12 of each codex.


All of my current codices have sections explaining what all the wargear mentioned in them actually does.
Oh, that wargear section. :(

Well, 90% of it overlaps anyways, right?

Grimbad
15-08-2009, 03:58
I'd rather have an 'imperial crusade' codex that could be configured as Inq or as most anything else. A standard list would have an inquisitor or priest as HQ, SoB or GK, Marines and assassins for Elites, Guardsmen, Stormtroopers, and Zealots for troops, assorted fast stuff for fast attack, and tanks for heavy.
Choosing other leaders for HQ would give you other options- a Fabricator General would let you upgrade russes to Knights (gain the Walker type and some other stuff), let you turn troops into skitarii with bionics, upgrade preachers to electoo-priests, but kick out SoB and GK while upgrading Marines to Iron Hands style bionic dudes.
A Chapter Master as HQ would upgrade your zealots to Chapter Serfs, who boost nearby Marine squads with guard order type abilities- marines would stay in elites, but might be able to hold objectives if serfs were nearby, for example. But it would kick out many other organizations' stuff or restrict it to 0-1.
A lord general would boost Guard units and restrict the rest, and so on. The end result is a codex which can put down almost any Imperial unit, with a variety of organizations working in concert, or depict just one organization bringing its full strength to bear. Better yet, have multiple ranks of leader from each organization, with the lowest only slightly influencing your force and the highest restricting everyone else to 0-1 and giving you the full range of their forces.

chaos0xomega
15-08-2009, 04:42
Grimbad, no. Bad Grimbad, BAD! Thats just a broken uberdex that is trying to be everything at once and will fail miserably at it.... or be so overpowered that people cease to play IG/SM armies entirely... not to mention such a book would dwarf the SMurf book.

Grand Master Raziel
15-08-2009, 07:53
And while Grey Knights are Adeptus ASTARTES, they are in fact chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus, which makes them more under the command of the Inquisition than most/all other chapters, although still capable of acting independently, when an Inquisitor calls they MUST act.

Of course, with the Grand Master of the Grey Knights being on the high council of the Ordo Malleus, that sort of makes the Grey Knights under the command of themselves. :D


Also, for Radicals, how much crap do you really think they need! Daemonhosts and 1-2 more similar units plus a couple special rules and wargear and bam, done.

At minimum, Radicals should have at least one decent option in each of the FOC categories. Currently, DH Radical armies are spoiled for choice in Elites, but have only one HQ option, one Troops option, one 0-1 Heavy Support option that sucks so badly it's little better than deliberately taking a points-handicap, and no Fast Attack option at all. WH Radicals have one more Heavy Support option, but I can't comment on whether or not it's very good, not having ever used it.

I haven't done much thinking about what I'd like out of a combined =I= book, because I still think it's a pretty bad idea. I have thought about what I'd like to see in an updated Codex: Daemonhunters. Here's that list.

1: Prices brought down for the weapons and wargear options available to Inquisitors/Inqy Lords. The CC-weapons are priced for a character with Space Marine stats, so they're wildly overpriced for a S3 T3 character. Nobody in their right mind would give up what a GK NFW for any other CCW.

2: Junk the idea of attaching an Inquisitor/Inqy Lord's stats to what henchmen he comes with. Give Inqy Lords WS5 BS5 I5 Ld10 and Inquisitors WS4 BS4 I4 Ld9. Make the henchmen worthwhile in what they do rather than in boosting the stats of their bosses.

3: Junk any specifically anti-daemon option that doesn't work against other armies, and instead replace them with options that work against any army, but just happen to be good against daemons. A good example of this type of thing that already exists in the dex is what Mystics do.

4: Take the 1-wound Brother Captain out of the HQs, replace him with a 2-wound I5 Senior Broother Captain.

5: Bump the Grand Master up to WS6 (at least, and a case could be made for WS7 now).

6: Introduce a power armored GK HQ option.

7: GK Chaplains (could cover #6 with this, too)

8: Frags for DCAs, Assassins, PAGKs

9: Make the Shrouding not suck.

10: Lower the prices of the incinerator and psycannon in PAGK squads, as the bearer is giving up NFW+storm bolter to get them. Incinerators should be free upgrades, and psycannon shouldn't be more than 10pts at most.

11: Either give GKs a transport option, or make the default PAGK Troops unit able to Deep Strike. There's enough all-DSing armies that one more won't be all that remarkable.

12: At least two new Fast Attack options: one for GKs that actually deserves to be in the category (I'm in favor of GK bike squadrons), and one for Radical players.

13: Be clearer on whether PAGK Justicars can take psychic powers.

14: At least one new Heavy Support option, non-GK based so Radical players have something from their own dex they can take.

15: Get rid of the Orbital Strike. Using the ordnance template for that is prettyy weak sauce. IMO, anything coming from an orbiting starship ought to be at least the size of the Apcalypse template

16: ISTs updated to equal the IG version

17: Prices and vehicle rules updated to match their IG and SM equivalents.

Firaxin
15-08-2009, 11:11
WH Radicals have one more Heavy Support option, but I can't comment on whether or not it's very good, not having ever used it.
If you're talking about the Penitent Engine... well, they're an 80pt open-topped AV11 Chaos Spawn model. :(


16: ISTs updated to equal the IG version
I'm with you completely on everything but this. IG Stormtroopers fail miserable compared to how they could have been done; especially when you think about whole armies of stormtroopers, which simply don't work now (not that they were particularly viable before). Yet basic Inquisitors without DH/SoB/DW will have to organize their armies around them.

Coming from the mouth of an IG player, I'd rather ISTs go in a unique, superior direction (probably by exploiting the distinction between hellguns and hot-shot lasguns, and cheesing the hell out of hellguns) that makes Guard players whine in envy.

Cry of the Wind
15-08-2009, 14:49
For Inquisitorial Stormtroopers I would think that either Stubborn or Fearless should be a part. I know people complain about those rules being tossed everywhere but these guys should have it. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers aren't just picked because they are good soliders (though that is an important part), they are also picked because their minds are strong enough to face the horrors of the universe and keep on shooting. Be it iron will, drugs or surgury that does it IST have to be effective fighters in the worst scenarios or there is no point to them existing. This is a distinction that the current rules never make.

Edit: ATSKNF with Combat Tactics would probably be a perfect way to show this, if only it wasn't the Space Marines racial rule...

chaos0xomega
15-08-2009, 17:46
I'm with you completely on everything but this. IG Stormtroopers fail miserable compared to how they could have been done; especially when you think about whole armies of stormtroopers, which simply don't work now (not that they were particularly viable before). Yet basic Inquisitors without DH/SoB/DW will have to organize their armies around them.

Coming from the mouth of an IG player, I'd rather ISTs go in a unique, superior direction (probably by exploiting the distinction between hellguns and hot-shot lasguns, and cheesing the hell out of hellguns) that makes Guard players whine in envy.


IST's are not Stormtroopers. They are a different sort of unit entirely. Giving them the same stats would be silly.

Personally I don't really care much for distinguishing puritan's from radicals.

shin'keiro
15-08-2009, 18:02
What would you like to see in a "Inquisition" Codex?

Inquisitors ...;)

Firaxin
15-08-2009, 18:58
IST's are not Stormtroopers. They are a different sort of unit entirely. Giving them the same stats would be silly.
Good, so we agree.

OanMkoll
15-08-2009, 22:53
IST's are not Stormtroopers. They are a different sort of unit entirely. Giving them the same stats would be silly.




Good, so we agree.

I... uh... third this motion. The new hellguns need to be the badass assault weaponry that Guard players like myself wanted in the new IG codex. They need their special weapons to cost less too, as well as have Frag/Krak and Targeters too as standard. If I was wishlisting, I'd like them to have a hellpistol and CC-weapon standard as well, but that last part's not required.

Netfreakk
15-08-2009, 22:55
I would like the new codex not to be able to ally and be a stand-alone codex. If they are going to combine witch hunters, daemon hunters, and add in an anti xenos, there shouldn't be a need for them to allow them to ally as they would have plenty of things they could mix and match to face other codices.

I also hope that they won't be too broken in how strong they are towards daemon codices. Only because it would be stupid for a codex purely designed to defeat another codex was remade. What if they made a "special" daemon codex "ordos malloes hunters codex" or "eldar hunters" or "space marine hunters" codex that just purely destroys another codice. I think that just breaks the balance in the game.

Cry of the Wind
15-08-2009, 23:00
IST's are not Stormtroopers. They are a different sort of unit entirely. Giving them the same stats would be silly.

I'm not sure having different stats would be the best way to go. Both are armed and armoured with the best the IG has to offer. I haven't read anything where IST had better gear compared to regular Stormtroopers (at least when it comes to guns and armour). The difference is the man using the equipment. Maybe WS4 as a boost but the guns should be the same as regular guard as they both use hellguns in all the fluff I've read. The hot-shot lasguns are closer to the book IST hellguns as far as I can tell.

I'll say again I think the difference should be the physchology of the troopers and maybe the different training. Stubborn or Fearless and maybe Prefered Enemy are closer to what should make them special rather than giving them a better gun (well maybe the Sgt can get something special :evilgrin:).

stainawarjar
15-08-2009, 23:22
Rather than just make them stormtroopers (training a blank to rush into the enemy's fortified lines doesn't make much sense) why not have a Sisters of Silence unit? They're all blanks, they crew the Black Ships, etc. Probably be better as an Elite or something.


I don't think there's anything in the fluff that suggests the Sisters of Silence still exist, and if there were it would IMO contradict the fluff that the Culexus temple has dibs on blanks... I like the Sisters though, so it would be cool if they could make them work somehow (Maybe instead of them being actual blanks they have some kind of null-fields incorporated in their armors?).

AmasNagol
16-08-2009, 00:44
I would like to see the Grey Knights become a less situationally useful list. The SoBs are brilliant against everyone. Grey Knights can be amazing against some and a big uphill struggle against others. Seeing as all their wargear will disappear

GMs have become useful because they can actually kill everyone. I would like to see them retain a version of their Kill Outright rule on the NFW. After all they are more powerful than anyone else bar about 3 characters who use Force Weapons. I5 is fine but they need WS6. Everything else is fine as is. Still retain the ability to purchase special weapons for +30 and +20pts

Agree with the exorbitant cost of special weapons on PAGK squads. At most they should be +5 for an incinerator and +15 for a Psycannon.

Dedicated Transports for both PAGK & GKT. Even if it is only Land Raiders.

If you are going to scrap their wargear list, then give them abilities which are actually practical against everyone, such as The Shrouding (but not rubbish like that, who has many weapons that are firing from over 33 inches away anyway?) All these demon and Chaos specific things are fun in principle, but not useful and they pay the points for them. I don't even mind keeping them at 25pts basic, as long as they get some bonuses or some reductions in other areas. They should all have Frag as standard.

The Terminators are beautiful, just update the Storm Shield rules please.

Crusader needs updating as well. Dreadnoughts need to go into Elite and get Drop Pods/Teleport. We would see a lot more Dreadnoughts if they either went into Elite or Land Raiders were Dedicated Transports.

Umm..... oh and finally. Teleportation. They are meant to be the single greatest masters of Teleport insertion in the Imperium, get any old shabby marine in his iron casket can plonk down with infinitely better reliability and safety. And they get a nice AV12 bunker to hide behind, which can also shoot. I would like to see all Grey Knights get the Deep Strike rule. No FA slots, they don't need them. And seeing as they are such masters, they get +1 to their reserve roll and always land as if near a Locator Beacon. It's not like they can charge when they land. You still need to be very careful leaving them exposed. And I can see a lot of 5 man 2 Incinerator squads being used. But if it gets a build other than 3 LRs competitive for Pure GK, then that's great.

Frostea
16-08-2009, 02:48
I'd rather have an 'imperial crusade' codex that could be configured as Inq or as most anything else. A standard list would have an inquisitor or priest as HQ, SoB or GK, Marines and assassins for Elites, Guardsmen, Stormtroopers, and Zealots for troops, assorted fast stuff for fast attack, and tanks for heavy.
Choosing other leaders for HQ would give you other options- a Fabricator General would let you upgrade russes to Knights (gain the Walker type and some other stuff), let you turn troops into skitarii with bionics, upgrade preachers to electoo-priests, but kick out SoB and GK while upgrading Marines to Iron Hands style bionic dudes.
A Chapter Master as HQ would upgrade your zealots to Chapter Serfs, who boost nearby Marine squads with guard order type abilities- marines would stay in elites, but might be able to hold objectives if serfs were nearby, for example. But it would kick out many other organizations' stuff or restrict it to 0-1.
A lord general would boost Guard units and restrict the rest, and so on. The end result is a codex which can put down almost any Imperial unit, with a variety of organizations working in concert, or depict just one organization bringing its full strength to bear. Better yet, have multiple ranks of leader from each organization, with the lowest only slightly influencing your force and the highest restricting everyone else to 0-1 and giving you the full range of their forces.

You are thinking Codex Imperialis. GW did it before and it doesn't seem they are going to do it again.


I for one, would also like to see some improvement in teleportation (deep strike) rules for GK, and they should have some sort of advantage when fighting against a horde of daemons/orks whatever. They should also have more different types of units (teleport assault marines become a seperate entry with unique equipment/rules?). GK terminators should also be able to serve a massive amount of asswhopping whenever they appear on the field. Radicals should have like, drastically more types of units. There should also certainly be plastic models of GK marine, terminator, normal SoBs, SoB seraphim, and probably exorcist and immolator.

Inquisitors and their retinues should also become badass as they are meant to be, but they should remain fragile as they are still human after all, making them a precision tool. Servitors should feature heavily in this aspect, but not too much that makes it very close to the adeptus mechanicus. They ought to get all sorts of funky rules seeing that they are some of the most characterful idea that GW has came up with.

Last but not least, 1 single codex for inquisition sounds like an uber gimped CSM codex (which is already gimped as it is). At least 2 to replace the current DH/WH.

Oh and also, more special characters that can actually do something. Like a GM that retains the 'kills outright' force weapon rule. Or an inquisitor that has better rules than creed and marneus combined. 185 pt for Inquisitor Corteaz has got to be one of the worst deal for a special character, ever.

chaos0xomega
16-08-2009, 03:55
I'm not sure having different stats would be the best way to go. Both are armed and armoured with the best the IG has to offer. I haven't read anything where IST had better gear compared to regular Stormtroopers (at least when it comes to guns and armour). The difference is the man using the equipment. Maybe WS4 as a boost but the guns should be the same as regular guard as they both use hellguns in all the fluff I've read. The hot-shot lasguns are closer to the book IST hellguns as far as I can tell.

I'll say again I think the difference should be the physchology of the troopers and maybe the different training. Stubborn or Fearless and maybe Prefered Enemy are closer to what should make them special rather than giving them a better gun (well maybe the Sgt can get something special :evilgrin:).

I'm not really up to snuff on my stormtrooper fluff, but as I understand it, Stormtroopers are raised/trained by the Schola Progenum to be elite highly capable assault troops (that frequently work behind enemy lines), whereas Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are usually guardsmen that were inducted into the Inquisition at some point and stayed in its service, and have recieved specialized training to combat the types of enemy usually encountered by the inquisition.

I.E. Stormtroopers are waffen-ss. Inquisitorial Stormtroops are more boogeymen/gestapo.

Cry of the Wind
16-08-2009, 05:00
There is one novel in which an Inquisitor notes that IST are recruited from the top 5% of regular Stormtrooper units/class. They are basically cherry picked from the Schola because they have the best skills and psych profile to fit the job.

What you're thinking of would be more like a member of an Inquisitors personal retinue. Those individuals are hand picked by an Inquisitor and form a part of their team. Basically the henchmen in the current codex are what those people are while top marks in Stormtrooper school gets you into the Inquisitions 'reg force'.

shabbadoo
16-08-2009, 05:27
The only thing I want to see, and which we probably won't see(due to corresponding model support likely not being able to keep up with three forces released simultaneously), is ALL three branches of the Inquisition in one book. Put in 3-5 special characters for EACH branch of the Inquisition.

Model-wise I'd like to see the following plastic sets(in order of precedence):

*Inquisitor & Retinue(w/variant bits to outfit them as ANY of branch of the Inquisition)

*Sisters of Battle
*Retributor/Dominion Squad(make it a combo box by simply adding the few special weapons/arms required)
*Seraphim
*Exorcist Tank
*Sisters Repentia(possibly re-imagined as "Novices", as that's a lot of fallen sisters needing to repent all at one time! I mean, what do they do, send of all to South Beach to a Girls Gone Wild party when a conflict is imminent?:D)

*Grey Knights
*Grey Knights Terminators
*Grey Knights Dreadnought
*Grey Knights Land Raider
*Grey Knights Rhino/Razorback

*Ordo Xenos Skitarii
*Ordo Xenos Skitarii Heavy Weapon Teams(3 per set)
*Deathwatch Space Marines(different Chapter shoulder pads included!!!)
*Techpriests & Servitors(5 of each)
*Ordo Xenos Praetorians(set of three)

As for metal blisters the Canoness is fine. I'd add blisters for a Deathwatch Captain, an Adeptus Mechanicus Lord, and a Grey Knights Lord.

That's one plastic set which works for them all, five plastic sets per branch of the Inquisition, and three new HQ blisters. 16 plastic sets in all, plus 3 metal blisters. Yes, that's is a lot of sets, but this is a force which, overall, needs and deserves a lot of attention. Stormtroopers are on their way, so those can be used for Inquisitorial Stormtroopers(there's no need for a variant kit). The "Techpriests & Servitors" set contains the models that it does to cover arthe army list well, as I would make Techpriests able to be fielded either with a retinue of Servitors or as an addition to most non-Deathwatch Space Marine units in the Ordo Xenos army list.

Now of course these sets wouldn't all be released at the same time, but in waves as we have become used to. The First Wave would include the three metal blisters, the Inquisitor boxed set, Sister of Battle, Retributor/Dominion Squad, Grey Knights, Grey Knights Terminators, Skitarii, and Skitarii Heavy Weapon Teams. That a whopping 7 plastic sets and 3 metal blisters released in an 8-10 week period roughly. Quite a shot in the arm. Succeeding release waves would feature 1-2 plastic sets and perhaps one metal set for each branch, with most everything for each branch of the Inquisition covered by the Third Wave. They probably couldn't cover everything for all three branches this time around(so far as the models are concerned), but they could do a pretty dang good job of it.

Given this level of model support, I'd be hard pressed not to do two of the three branches myself(sorry folks, Grey knights just don't appeal to me:(). I'd do Ordo Xenos in heartbeat, and with decent plastic model support the Ordo Hereticus wouldn't be far behind.

Grand Master Raziel
16-08-2009, 05:55
Crusader needs updating as well. Dreadnoughts need to go into Elite and get Drop Pods/Teleport. We would see a lot more Dreadnoughts if they either went into Elite or Land Raiders were Dedicated Transports.

The trouble with shifting GK Dreads to Elites is that's already a very crowded category for DH armies. You've got GK Termies, Inquisitors, DCAs, Assassins, and Daemonhosts. Plus, Assassins have 4 sub-entries. Granted, you won't see Daemonhosts with GKs, however it does add to the total of 5 Elites, whereas Heavy Support currently only has 4 real choices (the Orbital Strike can pretty much be ignored). I'm okay with GK Dreads being Heavies, but maybe they can get something back for it, such as an extra attack on their profile, or maybe getting to have a pair of gun arms, like DA Mortis-pattern Dreads (a Forge World thingy). Maybe AV13, or just let them take a pair of HK-missiles the way Ironclads can (they can already take 1 HK, in case you hadn't noticed).


Umm..... oh and finally. Teleportation. They are meant to be the single greatest masters of Teleport insertion in the Imperium, get any old shabby marine in his iron casket can plonk down with infinitely better reliability and safety. And they get a nice AV12 bunker to hide behind, which can also shoot. I would like to see all Grey Knights get the Deep Strike rule. No FA slots, they don't need them. And seeing as they are such masters, they get +1 to their reserve roll and always land as if near a Locator Beacon. It's not like they can charge when they land. You still need to be very careful leaving them exposed. And I can see a lot of 5 man 2 Incinerator squads being used. But if it gets a build other than 3 LRs competitive for Pure GK, then that's great.

Tele-burny would be kind of a risky strategy, as you'd still have to drop in danger-close. The obvious answer to the Deep Strike dilemma is to give them the ability so many other armies have: up to half the squads held in reserve to Teleport can come in on the first turn. There's ample precedents (Deathwing, SM Drop Pod Assault, Chaos Daemons), so I don't see anyone having a problem with that. Then, just allow every GK squad to buy a teleport homer. Again, there are precedents: SM homing beacons, CSM and Chaos Daemon icons, etc. Sorted.

I will disagree with the idea that DH armies don't need any Fast Attack choices (I think it likely that's not what you meant, but that's kind of what it looks like). Every army should have some. As I've said, I'm in favor of GK Bike Squadrons. Other well-received ideas have been PAGKs with jump packs and GK jetbikes. Also, there should be a non-GK based Fast Attack option. I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to simply add the Valkryie. IA2 already has the Inquisitorial Valkryie, so GW might as well just make it official.

AmasNagol
16-08-2009, 13:44
I would have to STRONGLY disagree with GKs getting Rhinos, Razorbacks and Bikes. That would be as repulsive to me as Space Wolves riding giant wolves into battle. It also just homogenizes the GK into just another Space Marine army.

And unless I am mistaken, the only Elites you can take when using GK in a force are Inquisitors, GKTs and Assassins. So that is only another 4th choice. I am happy to see that section full up because heaven forbid we end up seeing armies with 2 LRs and 3 Dreadnoughts in pods with everything else Teleporting in. That would be a nonsense.

GK work pretty well as a list now. Not as well as SoBs work, but they get by. They just need a couple of bonuses and discounts to be a competitive list. I wouldn't want to see any new units added at all. Especially not more vehicles, which they have absolutely no history of actually using.

Now adding more Inquisitorial options would be fine. A FA Valkyrie would be good as long as it doesn't turn into some nonsense Scout move, disembark then charge with your unit of GKTs carrying a beacon auto-win button.

Canonically I would disagree with purchasing homing beacons though. I think it should be a special rule conveyed to the models built into their base cost. As I said before, they are the Imperiums best at Teleport insertion, they shouldn't need beacons and such to be able to send their guys anywhere. They've been recruiting the very best for millennia. I'd put it akin to Scotty in Star Trek 11 beaming people onto a moving starship. Being able to do things that lesser minds were not capable of. Added with their mental strength meaning they would be able to endure the sensation of warp travel better.

I still want to see GK as a difficult army to win with, with a high points cost meaning there is little to no room for error or mistakes. But they should be superior at pretty much everything they attempt to do for that prohibitive cost.

Xelloss
16-08-2009, 15:15
The biggest problem of doing again OH and OM codices are all the redundant stuff in both codices : general fluff about the Inquisition, unit entries like assassins, DCA, IST, ... Largely to be ignored to make pure SoB or GK forces either because it's more efficient or more popular.
The biggest problem of doing one big book is GW would probably fit all units side to side, and present it like the 8th world wonder with no real new things.
The biggest problem of doing SoB and GK outside inquisition is that it becomes highly visible there are not many real pure inquisition choices.


There are no perfect way to redo the Inquisition, and each one of us has his own preferences (probably in regard of which aspect of the Inquisition he plays with...)
The common points are :
- Inquisition needs plastic.
- Pure GK force wasn't at first expected, and it's showing.
- Some units are either useless, either overcosted, and often both. These units also tend to be radical choices.
- We would all like some new shiny stuff in the existing forces, stuff either from forgeworld or totally new .
- Inquisition could be a good way to fit some popular factions : mechanicus units, and Lost and the Damned for radicals.
- the present allying system show its age and must be either removed, either rethought

Grand Master Raziel
16-08-2009, 15:38
I would have to STRONGLY disagree with GKs getting Rhinos, Razorbacks and Bikes. That would be as repulsive to me as Space Wolves riding giant wolves into battle. It also just homogenizes the GK into just another Space Marine army.

I think it would take a little bit more than having a GK bike squadron to do that. I'd be content to not have PAGKs get a transport option if they all got the teleportation option. However, they ought to have something in the Fast Attack category that deserves to be there. Personally, I think bikers would be less SM-homogenizing than PAGKs with jump packs. However, there's always that jetbike idea, too. You could also address the DH weakness vs vehicles some with the FA option, too. Perhaps GK jetbikes could mount multimeltas, or heck, just being able to take psycannons on a platform with that kind of mobility would be quite helpful.


And unless I am mistaken, the only Elites you can take when using GK in a force are Inquisitors, GKTs and Assassins. So that is only another 4th choice. I am happy to see that section full up because heaven forbid we end up seeing armies with 2 LRs and 3 Dreadnoughts in pods with everything else Teleporting in. That would be a nonsense.

You can take DCAs, too. Here's an idea: if GKs are supposed to be the Imperium's masters of teleportation, maybe they could teleport their Dreads. I don't object to the principle of shifting GK Dreads to Elite. However, in addition to the problem I already mentioned, they'd also be competing against GKTs, Assassins, and DCAs (GK Dreads win over Inquisitors unless they get improved a lot). It also leaves the list with no relatively inexpensive Heavy Support. Currently, GK Dreads kind of fill the role that Predators would take in a SM army. Take them out of Heavy Support, and you'd need something else to fill that role.


GK work pretty well as a list now. Not as well as SoBs work, but they get by. They just need a couple of bonuses and discounts to be a competitive list. I wouldn't want to see any new units added at all. Especially not more vehicles, which they have absolutely no history of actually using.

In 10,000 years of operation, I'm sure some examples of GKs using vehicles could be found (or written as a retcon). I'm not looking for GKs to be turned into another Codex: Space Marines clone, but I would like them to have a list that's at least as well fleshed out as the Sisters of Battle list. Admittedly, with SoBs it's easier, because most of the options can use standard SoB figures, the only differences in the squads being what upgrades they have access to. I'd also shift the Immolater over to Fast Attack. I think wha SoBs need more than a list overhaul is a new plastic models range. I'd also like to see plastic GKs, but I have more than enough of the current metal figures to meet my needs.


Canonically I would disagree with purchasing homing beacons though. I think it should be a special rule conveyed to the models built into their base cost. As I said before, they are the Imperiums best at Teleport insertion, they shouldn't need beacons and such to be able to send their guys anywhere. They've been recruiting the very best for millennia. I'd put it akin to Scotty in Star Trek 11 beaming people onto a moving starship. Being able to do things that lesser minds were not capable of. Added with their mental strength meaning they would be able to endure the sensation of warp travel better.

Well, in my mind, that's the kind of thing that doesn't necessarily require a new special rule. Being the Imperium's masters of teleportation could simply come from being the only Imperial force that does so on as wide a basis as they do, which would make having each squad tote a teleport homer make a lot of sense. It could be part of the Justicar's and Brother Captain's base equipment. I think that+teleporting Dreads would be enough.

Xelloss
16-08-2009, 15:57
As special munition of deathwatch have been transfered to sternguard, why not give the gyro-stabilizer (not sure of the name) to the PAGK : they would so have a FA that move 6" but with relentless heavy weapon ?

Another idea : PAGK could teleport again during the game, not only to arrive on the board ?

AmasNagol
16-08-2009, 16:59
One of either: Dreads going into Elites or Land Raiders going into Dedicated Transports would be fine by me.

I think having something which equates to a Teleport Homer in each Justicar/BC/GM's basic equipment along with Frags for the PAGK and everything getting the Deep Strike rule would be balanced enough. Grey Knights teleporting Dreads would be thematic but I have only ever read about them being deployed in Pods, and giving them the Deep Strike rule for free would be a bit mean. I'd be happy for Dreads to at least get Drop Pods as a Transport option.

I can't see a balanced army for all 3 Ordos fitting in one book though. It would be open to abuse. People will find some horribad combinations if you give them too many options.

AmasNagol
16-08-2009, 17:01
Oh, and BC Stern:

WS5 W2 I5 A3 NFW counts as Instant Death (only GMs get the Kills Outright), Hammer Hand and no other useless wargear. 125 pts Thanks.

Grand Master Raziel
17-08-2009, 19:42
As special munition of deathwatch have been transfered to sternguard, why not give the gyro-stabilizer (not sure of the name) to the PAGK : they would so have a FA that move 6" but with relentless heavy weapon ?

They've got it already. The psycannon's two firing modes uses exactly the same rules as the Deathwatch's heavy bolter suspensors.


Another idea : PAGK could teleport again during the game, not only to arrive on the board ?

That'd be stepping on the toes of Necrons and SM GoI-Librarians. I think it'd be enough to allow the regular PAGK squads to teleport into play, and give the army a rule along the lines of Deathwing Assault or Drop Pod Assault.


Grey Knights teleporting Dreads would be thematic but I have only ever read about them being deployed in Pods, and giving them the Deep Strike rule for free would be a bit mean.

Well, they are a Heavy Support choice, after all. I doubt they'll get shifted, so they can get the teleportation option. Besides, even with a fully fleshed out list, DH would still be a pretty difficult army to make competitive, so the advantage isn't unreasonable.

Netfreakk
17-08-2009, 20:39
I think that the points should be the same for normal grey knights PA, but they should all have standard deep strike rules and heroic intervention like the vanguard unit. If your willing to risk deepstrike mishaps, then they should be able to do so. Also, it seems that they are masters of teleportation so...

Joey Dunlop
18-08-2009, 02:29
I'd be a bit upset to see the sisters of sattle swallowed up into being a unit type. I think they should go the other way and have their own codex.

drizzt73
12-10-2009, 09:55
First of all plastic minis! Secondly Alien Hunters in a combined dex with the other 2 ordos. Finally maker Inq live up to their fluff. Give them better stats and things like orbital bombardment.