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Master Shake
13-08-2009, 02:41
The entry for the Doom diver says 'When firing a doom diver, treat it like a stone thrower....'.

Does this mean that it is also treated as a stone thrower in the sense that each unsaved wound causes D6 wounds like a stone thrower?

TheDean04
13-08-2009, 02:59
I would think not, but the FAQ for O&G may shed a bit of light on that.

Master Shake
13-08-2009, 03:05
This issue is not addressed in the O&G FAQ.

rtunian
13-08-2009, 03:07
no...
the doom diver does not say "when working out damage, treat it like a stone thrower"
what it says is entirely different, and limited only to how you shoot it, and not how you work out damage done

Master Shake
13-08-2009, 04:29
I've taken it to mean that it is treated like a stone thrower in all respects except it does D6 hits to the hit unit instead of using a template. The doom diver even uses the stone thrower mishap chart.

If it is treated as a stone thrower when firing, then unsaved wounds should cause D6 wounds...:confused:

Mid'ean
13-08-2009, 10:57
Really rather simple if you just read the rules for Doomdiver.

"FIRE" like stonethrower (guess range, etc), no template, if hits you cause D6 S5 hits with no armor save. Period. There is nothing in the rules for Doomdivers that would support casuing D6 wounds per hit.

Milgram
13-08-2009, 11:15
the d6 wounds are a part of the template damage as is the s10 on the center. you also don't get a s10 wound for the doomdiver.

rtunian
13-08-2009, 13:20
does it really make sense that a single, scrawny goblin would cause as much damage as a massive boulder?

does it really make sense to have a special unit war machine, and then essentially duplicate that war machine as a rare, for 10 points more, and give it d3 movement to counter the scatter dice?

no, and no.

Milgram
13-08-2009, 13:54
wooooo, d6 templates! and of course it is not only a scrawny goblin, it is a scrawny goblin with a club.

rtunian
13-08-2009, 14:12
oh yeah that's right! also the club is made of enchanted steel, upon which wurrzhag cast "finger of gork", which gives his club d6 wounds per unsaved wound. how could i forget?!

(oh i hope no one took that seriously)

Chicago Slim
13-08-2009, 14:44
Yeah, just to pull it back a bit...

"When firing" tells you how to target the Doom Diver, and how to determine whether or not you've hit a target.

The damage resolution isn't part of the "firing"-- it happens shortly AFTER you fire-- so once you've determined that your Doom Diver has hit a target, you resolve that hit according to the Doom Diver's rules only, without further reference to Stone Throwers.

Yrrdead
13-08-2009, 17:46
The real question for me (as a new OnG player) is , why would you get a doom diver that is 10 more pts than a rock lobba , does less hits, only single wounds, and takes up a rare slot? Other than it being really cool. Is D3 movement really worth all that?

SMann233
13-08-2009, 17:51
The real question for me (as a new OnG player) is , why would you get a doom diver that is 10 more pts than a rock lobba , does less hits, only single wounds, and takes up a rare slot? Other than it being really cool. Is D3 movement really worth all that?

Yes, it is. A template from a stone thrower, unless you're extremely lucky, is only going to hit a few models at once. Rarely do you land it smack in the middle of a unit. This is especially true when we're talking about things like cavalry, which the doom diver excels at taking out. On the average, you'll get more hits and it's more accurate.

In addition, it's a Rare choice in a book that's got most of it's strength under the Special category. You want to use your special slots on other things. OnG doesn't really have much in the way of good rare choices.

rtunian
13-08-2009, 18:06
all of the o&g rare choices are good!

doom diver may not have as much potential to inflict wounds as rock lobba, but wounds dealt don't allow armor save, and d6 s5's can do significant damage to, say a heavy cav unit.

also, having a rare war machine allows you to field a pretty mean artillery force... 4 chuckas, 2 lobbas and 2 divers at 2k, or some variation thereof. hmm i wonder how that would do with 3-4 chariot riding goblin shamen, a little fast cav, and then the rest of the points in msu arrer boyz or bowgobs, maybe with 1 sizeable block for a bsb. hmmm......

Milgram
13-08-2009, 19:43
uhm, rtunian, you mean 3 chariot riding goblin shamen and 1 lvl 4 shamen on wyvern... I've seen that.

Condottiere
14-08-2009, 06:55
does it really make sense that a single, scrawny goblin would cause as much damage as a massive boulder?

does it really make sense to have a special unit war machine, and then essentially duplicate that war machine as a rare, for 10 points more, and give it d3 movement to counter the scatter dice?

no, and no.The Goblin artificially increases his terminal velocity towards his target after reaching the apex of his ballistic flight.

snottlebocket
14-08-2009, 07:37
The Goblin artificially increases his terminal velocity towards his target after reaching the apex of his ballistic flight.

You could have just said it flaps it's arms.

Condottiere
14-08-2009, 09:37
Actually, Orcs have an unofficial variant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoWJy9figd4) of the Doom Diver as well.

rtunian
14-08-2009, 12:46
sorry condo, but the goblin isn't going to ever be going fast enough to equal the force of a boulder. a massive stone boulder is going to be at least 10 times the weight of a single squishy goblin.

force = mass * accelleration

Milgram
14-08-2009, 13:09
most rocks in warhammer are made of styrofoam while the doomdiver goblin is made of metal. throw around your styrofoam! I'll use my unpainted extra diver. :)

Condottiere
14-08-2009, 13:44
sorry condo, but the goblin isn't going to ever be going fast enough to equal the force of a boulder. a massive stone boulder is going to be at least 10 times the weight of a single squishy goblin.

force = mass * accellerationThat would be before he paints his equipment red.

nosferatu1001
14-08-2009, 15:20
Wrong equation: what would be important would be the total KE of the object, which is equal to 1/2*mass*(velocity^2) - a goblin 1/10th the mass of a boulder only has to travel root(10), or roughly 3.3, times faster than the boulder does to equal the kinetic energy.

Of course the objects deform differently, and therefore would impart this energy differently - but the basic assumptions can hold

Pirate Jimm
15-08-2009, 12:28
Acceleration due to gravity is constant.
Looking at the Rock Lobba model, the rocks are approximately the same size if not smaller than a goblin, so therefore the differences in drag due to different surface areas will be minimal. Therefore they will fall at approximately the same speed, like the hammer and feather on the moon.
Therefore the rock will have the greater kinetic energy, as it has a far greater mass and the differences in velocity are minimal.

Condottiere
15-08-2009, 13:15
But the Goblin has implicit faith he's going faster.

Lord Zarkov
15-08-2009, 15:44
The goblin might also be catapulted faster than the rock though as his lower mass would mean more acceleration could be imparted by the catapult. Therefore he'll have a faster speed of descent (both horizontallly, and vertically if he's catapulted higher).

nosferatu1001
15-08-2009, 16:17
If both the rock lobber and stone thrower have the same amount of PE, the lower mass of the Goblin will result in a much higher velocity. Conservation would however require that the energy of both are equal, minus losses to drag.

I would argue the Goblin should be more aerodynamic efficient, even orcs know to put the pointy bit on the end ;), and in additon could dive with wings tuckjed in to increase the terminal velocity they could achieve - remember acceleration is constant but drag increases withthe cube of velocity, until the two equalise.

Pirate Jimm
15-08-2009, 18:34
If both the rock lobber and stone thrower have the same amount of PE, the lower mass of the Goblin will result in a much higher velocity. Conservation would however require that the energy of both are equal, minus losses to drag.

I would argue the Goblin should be more aerodynamic efficient, even orcs know to put the pointy bit on the end ;), and in additon could dive with wings tuckjed in to increase the terminal velocity they could achieve - remember acceleration is constant but drag increases withthe cube of velocity, until the two equalise.

1) No it won't- acceleration due to gravity is 9.81ms^-2 same regardless of mass.
2) Comparing the models, the doomdiver avec hat and the rocks for the stonethrower have about the same surface area- the rocks are goblin sized. The dfference isn't enough for the goblin to be going fast enough to make its kinetic energy more than the heavier rock.

sir_shvantselot
15-08-2009, 18:46
The real question for me (as a new OnG player) is , why would you get a doom diver that is 10 more pts than a rock lobba , does less hits, only single wounds, and takes up a rare slot? Other than it being really cool. Is D3 movement really worth all that?

Yes, it is. I play O&G a lot and I can tell you that if you are at all good at guessing you hit with the doomdiva virtually every time because of the extra D3. I no longer use the lobba exactly because you have absolutely NO control over where the rock lands ever, and so it rarely makes its points back.

I also have a concrete example of why the alternative rules interpretation suggested at the start of this thread cannot be right. It would be devastating. I once persuaded a WOC player that the rules should be interpreted as being that each wounding hit causes multiple wounds (because army book stated "like a rock thrower"). The doomdiva hit four chaos ogres causing 4 wounds, which I made him roll multiple wounds for...wiping out the whole unit. After the game, it occured to me that this cannot be right...

nosferatu1001
16-08-2009, 01:16
1) No it won't- acceleration due to gravity is 9.81ms^-2 same regardless of mass.
.

Which is why I was talking about the POTENTIAL ENERGY OF THE MECHANISM and stating that, assuming the max PE is the same for both the lower massed goblin must accelerate faster and attain a higher velocity - conservation of energy (translation of PE to KE) dictates that is true. (If you had read my assumption was that the mechs had the same max PE capacity; if not then the situations are impossible to compare so it seemed a necessary and appropriate assumption)

In addition, assuming a parabolic arc, your velocity back to earth is the same as the velocity when you leave the device accelerating upwards. Again, this is because it has to be - as you are thrown upwards you transfer KE to GPE, until you reach the top of the arc when you momentarily stop, with GPE == initial KE. (i.e. GPE is maximised). From this point onwards gravity will ensure the translation of GPE back to KE, until you hit the ground (assuming at same level, without hitting obstacles, and in a perfect vacuum) with exactly the same KE as you started with, and GPE = 0.

This is also assuming a netownian universe, which is a sufficiently close analogy to the real one at these velocities to be an appropriate approximation.

Lord Zarkov
16-08-2009, 09:17
1) No it won't- acceleration due to gravity is 9.81ms^-2 same regardless of mass.
2) Comparing the models, the doomdiver avec hat and the rocks for the stonethrower have about the same surface area- the rocks are goblin sized. The dfference isn't enough for the goblin to be going fast enough to make its kinetic energy more than the heavier rock.

He's talking about EPE in the mecahnism I believe (not the GPE from height), which is 0.5kx^2 going to 0.5mv^2 so the lower mass will have an effect. Once it comes out the launcher though the lower mass is irrelavent to the parabolic flight.

perrin23860
16-08-2009, 14:00
hahahaha!!! This is one of the best threads ever! Great analysis. Now what I wanna know, is the goblin's motivation...

Mid'ean
16-08-2009, 14:15
It's his one chance to be above all the other orks...Even Da'boss!!!!!

Condottiere
16-08-2009, 17:04
It seemed like a good idea at the time ...

rtunian
16-08-2009, 17:28
he was given the choice of being ammo or breakfast

snottlebocket
16-08-2009, 18:26
hahahaha!!! This is one of the best threads ever! Great analysis. Now what I wanna know, is the goblin's motivation...

Lack of foresight really. Right up until the landing the whole deal is awesome. Do you want to strap on a cape, wings, a cool hat and use a gigantic catapult to launch yourself into the heavens and soar like a wyvern before coming down on your target like the fist of gork himself?

Ofcourse you do lad, get in line for the thrill of a lifetime!

Hell I might sign up for that myself.

Condottiere
16-08-2009, 19:47
There's still secret Lodge, where all the wenches are willing and the beer is free; but first you have to pass this initiation test, no not the one with the sheep ...