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CKO
13-08-2009, 08:11
Ok the new storm troopers are decent and have their uses, but the majority of the IG players believe that they are to expensive. The special operations and hot-shot lasguns are ok but I think they should have given Storm Troopers the options for different special weapons, maybe a weapon similar to Tau's smart missile system, and made hell guns assault 2 range 18 str3 ap5 and lower the price down.

grissom2006
13-08-2009, 08:40
I like them fine as the are they have a their flaws but then again plenty of other elite units do. Taken me a while to get used to the new rules on them and produce a new tactical way for them to work but i got there in the end.

Badger[Fr]
13-08-2009, 10:19
The price tag is not the only issue IMHO. I understand why Cruddace wanted to give them an "elite" feel, but S3 rapid-fire weapons on T3 4+ models aren't efficient enough.

I think their special weapons should have been granted for free. The ability to choose their loadout before the game starts would have been nice too.

Kriegfreak
13-08-2009, 10:22
If you wanna use Storm Troopers, use them. If they fit in-line with your army, damn the price man. They can still deep-strike and tear stuff up. I prefer to use them in a City Fight situation where the range of there hellguns isn't to much of an issue. Veterans still perform the role better with the options to take heavy weapon, demo/melta, assault weapons, and a commander with a power fist - but Stormies are still cool. The one where their weapons pin can be brutal against lower leadership armies. Set em up for a nice tank-nuke.

Fixer
13-08-2009, 10:23
I liked the DoW Winter assault version of them with extremely rapid fire lasguns.

I would have given them two fire modes.
Hellgun: S3, AP-, Assault 3, 24"
Hot shot: S3, AP3, Rapid fire 18"

Galatan
13-08-2009, 10:28
Nothing. The Storm troopers are fine, maybe a tiny tad bit too expensive, but fine. I often play against them against my friends guard army and he uses them succesfully every time. Mind though they do die more often then not, but he always gives them a specific objective and thanks to the special operations rule they always have the right tool for the job. If you can find an important enough objective for them then they can often complete it. You don't always have to 'earn' your points back with a unit.

If you want a normal killy unit then you should take something else, like 4x plasma vet unit in a chimera with carapace. A lot more deadly, but less flexible.

precinctomega
13-08-2009, 10:39
I think that part of the problem is that people haven't yet learned how to use Storm Troopers effectively.

R.

Vaktathi
13-08-2009, 10:41
11pts

keep equipment the same as it is now (frag/krak/pistol/ccw).

Kept the "hellgun" and made it S3 AP5 Assault 3 and made ST's WS4.

I'd have also made the Carapace vets option only a 15pt upgrade instead of 30, but alas...



Currently, they are simply far too expensive for what they are likely to achieve except if using them as a suicide DS anti-tank melta squad. S3 on their guns means they aren't likely to really kill most infantry targets, and their short range means they need to be basically at point blank range to do anything (and thus in assault range) and most things will still beat them in CC even with pistol/CCW.

For their cost, if they'd been WS4 and I4 and their guns Assault 2 they'd be worth 16pts and you'd see them very often.

Bunnahabhain
13-08-2009, 10:46
12pts They're not marines
Hellguns. S3, Assault 3, 18"- Makes their basic weapon useful against most things, through volume of fire, without being a bolter clone. Sarge come with hellgun as standard.

We'll get to where we're needed. Before the battle, choose one of these for the squad:
Deep strike, with free re-roll on the scatter and distance dice if needed
or
Infiltrate, with free re-roll on dice for side of board for outflanking.

Squad may upgrade their krak grenades to melta bombs at +2 or 3pts each

Up to 2 special weapons, chimera, other unsurprising options.

They're now a way to apply a large volume of firepower to one place, accurately, and hopefully not a suicidal special weapons delivery unit.

Badger[Fr]
13-08-2009, 11:10
Vakhati and Bunnahabhain's rules are fine and perfectly balanced, but I feel they would rather suit a Troop choice such as Grenadiers than an Elite unit. Current Storm Troopers are meant to strike hard at the right place, and a poor-man's Dire Avenger (minus Bladestorm, Doom, and Guide) will hardly do the job. A point-efficient unit is always a nice thing to have, but I'd rather have slightly overcosted Storm Troopers with a specific purpose in mind than a cheap but eventually pointless unit.

Granted, current ST are neither cheap nor efficient, but a straight point drop seems to be a rather uninspired way to fix them IMHO. There's nothing wrong with a high point cost as long as the unit's performance on the battlefield lives up to one's expectations.

AFnord
13-08-2009, 12:20
I don't find them to be bad at all. They are a weapon delivery system, their hot shot guns are simply a nice little perk, not what you buy them for! Try a minimum sized squad with meltas or flamers, and deep strike them. That way you should be able to deal with a high threat target behind enemy lines. Sure, they might die after that, and they might not actually make back their point cost in kills, but removing something that can be a high threat to your army often makes it worth it.

SaGa Jr
13-08-2009, 12:24
I really like Bunnahabhain's We'll get to where we're needed rule, but I think the hellgun don't need 3 shots.
A weapon with 18" range, assault 2, S3/Ap5 and re-roll to wound will be the best for these special troops.

Xelloss
13-08-2009, 12:39
IG stormtroopers make the Inquisitorial stormtroopers look good in comparaison. What else to say about them ?
Maybe the 18" assault 3 weapon will be granted to the IST when the next inquisition codex will be released, like in 3.10^9 years...

Steel Legion for Life
13-08-2009, 12:53
Personally,

If you keep Stormtroopers as is, I'd like to have seen an option on veterans to take Hellguns for 60pts per squad, just to allow all those people with all Kasrkin armies to use them. It wouldn't be good, just characterful, but I suppose this is slightly off topic.

I think the best ST fix would a removal of the spec ops rules, give them the option to buy deep strike, the option to buy infiltrate and a reduction in cost (I see them worth about 11 points with no special deployment, 13 with it). They have to be cost-competitive with veterans, as they have a similar role, but can't score.

I'd like to see them with access to more elite equipment - maybe the return of guard jump-packs, camo cloaks for infiltrators, Valkyries (not Vendettas) as transports for full size squads, that sort of thing, to make them stand out from veterans, but also the option to just have them on the ground, with nothing wacky going on.

The spec op rules are hard to cost, as their game effect is tough to determine; they all vary from useless to game-breaking, depending on circumstances. You have to remember what they are as well, in the context of those rules. They're well trained, well equipped guardsmen.

It's a bit random that they are more controlled and precise than assault marines (or even VG veterans) at DSing, can shoot from surprise more effectively than eldar pathfinders, etc etc. I think they erred on the side of caution and thus the price of the troopers is too high.

Reduction in cost may not be the flashy option "new rules", but I think it's the best one.

Jimbobjeff
13-08-2009, 13:18
I think a slight points reduction is needed, maybe make them 13 -14 pts, I'd also like to see them given a niche that veterans cant already fill, to do this I'd allow them to take a valkyrie as a dedicated transport to make an all airbourne army feasable.

ehlijen
13-08-2009, 13:26
But aren't all those assault 3 suggestions basically packing 2 guardsmen into 1 wound? Volumes of lasfire are not hard to come by; making stormtroopers just that really would not have added anything to the army.

So what they did was make them elite hunting elites. And they are good at that, even with their points.

Badger[Fr]
13-08-2009, 13:38
I think the best ST fix would a removal of the spec ops rules, give them the option to buy deep strike, the option to buy infiltrate and a reduction in cost (I see them worth about 11 points with no special deployment, 13 with it).
Isn't the versatility provided by the Special Operations rule the whole point of Storm Troopers? The ability to deploy them accordingly to your opponent's army is far more valuable than a straight Deep Strike.

grissom2006
13-08-2009, 13:44
I think that part of the problem is that people haven't yet learned how to use Storm Troopers effectively.

R.

I quite agree:D

Wicksy
13-08-2009, 14:06
Man, you IG players shouldnt complain! You have some of the best units in the game. You can field 9 leman russ tanks in a 2000pt battle! :D

Captain Micha
13-08-2009, 14:26
Ok the new storm troopers are decent and have their uses, but the majority of the IG players believe that they are to expensive. The special operations and hot-shot lasguns are ok but I think they should have given Storm Troopers the options for different special weapons, maybe a weapon similar to Tau's smart missile system, and made hell guns assault 2 range 18 str3 ap5 and lower the price down.

I would probably have made Special Ops a purchasable ability and reduced the cost somewhat of the unit.

That being said though, I really don't think there's much wrong with em. I think part of their problem is what some army units in other armies suffer from, where a unit is priced higher than what someone is typically used to paying for they thing "ZOMG overprice!" and go from there.

I'm used to paying premiums for my units. *18 point basic troop choice, and 30 point piece of crap stealth suits and over priced a little crisis suits* So when the new Stormies came out, I figured "another specialist unit" after I got over the "zomg" moment.

They aren't made to kill marines. I wish I could drill that into people's heads deep enough that it would actually stick. Stormtroopers are Xeno Hunters. And they do a very good job of it. Veterans aren't as good at wiping an Aspect Warrior squad as stormies, nor are they as good at killing some Suits. When they can't be Xeno Hunters, I let them do their Anti Tank job *as I give mine Melta guns typically. Never plasma... might consider flamers some day though*

I've used them to great effect so far, and they aren't so expensive that they bog down the list. I look at them as a Force Multiplier, rather than a "Super Unit Solves The Problem!" *which is the incorrect way to look at any Elite unit in an army like the IG*

For me they usually end up punching units out, well above their point cost class.

Steel Legion for Life
13-08-2009, 14:28
Because we can take mostly great units from a mostly well-written codex doesn't mean that iconic units like stormtroopers should be over-costed to the point where they become a niche option.

If anything, the better the codex in general, the more stand-out the bad units are.

As for the patronising "you haven't learned to use stormtroopers yet", well, mine were lovely figures to paint, and a 16 pts a model, that's all. We guard players know that small squads DS'ing are good for suicide vehicle killing, but a KP liability and often a waste, that reasonable size squads can be game breaking with the pinning Spec Op... and that there's not much else you can do with them.

Testing has shown that the pistol/combat weapon option isn't that good, and that almost any other role is better filled by veterans, for less points. The problem is, AP3 guns (especially St3 ones) and odd rules are costed at a premium, a premium they don't reflect in a take all comers army. Micha's right, they are good vs. certain builds of certain armies, but those just don't appear often enough to justify the inclusion of STs.

Can't really say any more, I'm just off to "work out" how to use spawn, vespid, thunderfire cannons and all the other badly tuned units. Then I might "work out" how LaTD are in fact the best tournament army in the world.

In short, looking for a needle in a haystack is frustrating, especially when the needle isn't there.

Captain Micha
13-08-2009, 14:31
I think that's way too harsh on the Stormies.

They are a pincer unit to be used in conjunction with another.

Of course then again I'm the stupid ***** that thinks the Vendetta and Valkyrie get way more credit than they are actually worth though and would rather take a Hound in -any- situation.

Units that are a no needle haystack are the Punisher, Ogryn, or the Deathstrike.

The Stormtroopers just need a brain to be used properly. And the appropriate metagame. *such as mine which has loads of Eldar, some Orks, some Meqs, and lots of vehicles to shoot at* I view them in the same way I view the Executioner. It's got a rather specific role, Plasma Russ, is great for MEQs and a waste on anything else.

Stormies are good on Xenos and Vehicles.

Blue Orphen
13-08-2009, 14:34
Man, you IG players shouldnt complain! You have some of the best units in the game. You can field 9 leman russ tanks in a 2000pt battle! :D

9 Russes, and not much else.

Steel Legion for Life
13-08-2009, 14:43
@Micha: I think Stormtroopers are a niche unit. Maybe not Vespid bad, but still very "niche". The rules are fine, just the cost is a little too high for them to be really effective in my eyes.

Ogryns are another Niche unit - ironically, they are very good vs. the same sort of foes you highlight for STs e.g. lots of specific types of Xenos. Still, those are a real design challenge, as the devs clearly don't want assaulty guard to be THAT viable.

I can forgive Deathstrikes being bad, as they're a silly option for silly fun.

The Punisher and Stormtroopers should be cost-balanced vs. the rest of the codex though, and feel like they were almost designed in isolation at times. The rules for both are fine - they just pay a bit too much. I'd find the punisher tempting at 150 points base, for example.

PS:- A hound over a valkyrie in ANY situation? What if a bridge is down?:)

Captain Micha
13-08-2009, 14:53
Then I guess we'll find out if Hounds have Four Wheel Drive :p

Oh I agree Stormies aren't the best unit or even in contention for it, in the codex (I feel that Honor goes to the Colossus myself, or the Vanilla Russ). I view it as Middle of the Road. You aren't gimped for taking them, but you aren't really boosting your army's power. I've found stormies utilize whatever else is in the list they don't make the list better itself.

I'd want the Punisher to cost 130 actually before I'd even consider it. The thing just doesn't do enough things better than the Russ to even put it on the same points level for the amount of drawbacks it has compared to the Russ.

Signal
13-08-2009, 16:17
When they can't be Xeno Hunters, I let them do their Anti Tank job *as I give mine Melta guns typically. Never plasma... might consider flamers some day though*

Why not plasmas? I would've thought 4 or 5 rapid-fire plasma shots would be good against hard units with a low model count?

Dragonbourn
13-08-2009, 16:48
I honestly think that the ST's are good with the rules that they have, however for 16 pts per model I would have made these changes:

ST: WS 4, Ld 8
ST SGT: WS 4, Ld 9

Hellguns: 18" str 3 AP 3 assualt 2
Hellpistol: 12" str 3 AP 3 pistol

Wargear: add Camo Cloaks and Defensive Grenades

I would think that would help them out a lot and make them priced a bit more evenly for what they get.

And in my honest opinion I believe that Vets should have had Carapace armour for 15 pts like previously stated but also given a Doctrine Option for "Hot-Shot Packs" for 30 pts that makes the lasgun they carry AP 5 or 6... but that is for another thread.

Captain Micha
13-08-2009, 17:01
Why not plasmas? I would've thought 4 or 5 rapid-fire plasma shots would be good against hard units with a low model count?

Plasma's just expensive is why.

Typically if I want to run with Plasma I stick it on a Veteran squad (which can take a heavy weapon to go with it).

I'm sure it works fine, but for me it's a personal preference to use a Melta gun.

laudarkul
13-08-2009, 17:11
I like them. In a 2000 pts list I'll put a unit of 5-6 with plasma/melta's just to evaporate a unit with Sv3+.
But I would drop the price a little bit (2-3 points) in order to see them more often on tables and maybe add also another profile to the hotshot lasgun (Assault 3 Ap4). I just hope that the guys from GW to learn from our opinions in order to make at least the =][= ST almost perfect.

Signal
13-08-2009, 17:34
I just hope that the guys from GW to learn from our opinions in order to make at least the =][= ST almost perfect.

Hey, while we're on the subject, is there supposed to be any big difference between IG stormtroopers and Inquisitional ones in terms of how they look? I ask because there's a rumor going on that plastic Inquisitional stormtroopers are eventually going to be released. I actually use a squad of them in some of my own IG lists so I'm all for a cheap squad of Stormies.

Steel Legion for Life
13-08-2009, 17:41
I'd say the Guard stormtroopers will set the pattern for the IQ ones.

Background wise, there's never been a really full description of what inquisitorial stormtroopers look like, and I think I'm right in saying that proper, schola progenium trained imperial stormtroopers, rather than regimental grenadiers, have never featured in any of the BL novels at all. All we know about them is from the little bits of fluff blurb in the army books.

The IQ ones will probably lose the special missions and be cheaper, but keep the AP3 guns. Then again, the greens posted in the rumor thread had shotguns, so you might get a unit which can pay to buy hellguns.

Looks wise, they will probably look like the old mark bedford stormtroopers, as pictured in the guard codex artwork.

Lord Inquisitor
13-08-2009, 17:44
Like Ogryns, the Stormtrooper rules are fine, they just overcosted them for their abilities.

I thought Ogryns were great until I realised that only Nork has Feel No Pain. Consequently they're a bit overcosted, but with toughness 5 and three wounds they're useful if used right. For example, when used to shoot from a chimera can add 15 S5 shots at BS3 - not shabby against low-armour opponents like orks and they can counter-charge Orks pretty effectively too.

Anyway, I've not had near the experience with the new stormtroopers, but I'm planning to take a squad with two plasmas and perhaps a plasma pistol (yes, I know plasma is overcosted) and stick them in a valkyrie. That's 5 plasma shots and 14 hellgun shots. You can expect around 6 wounds to a marine equivalent in the open from all that - not shabby considering.

Something of a niche unit, but one that can assassinate small marine squads quite effectively and combined with the re-roll on the grav-chute insertion allows you to land that punishment over a large effective area.

So it's useful, it's just annoying that such a squad costs upwards of 200 points. A veteran squad with carapace armour and three plasma guns and a plasma pistol costs 155, scores almost as many wounds against marines in the open (around 5 wounds) and is a scoring unit. Now, for those 50 points the stormtroopers do have an extra attack each and the special operations rule but the lack of scoringness is a real downer.

I'm willing to give them a go as a troubleshooting unit in an airborne force, but it is a shame. Either they need more punch (WS4, an assault weapon gun) or they need a points drop to make them really attractive.

GW need to realise that elite units need to be really special if a Troops unit can do the same job, because Troops are absolutely vital. They seem to have a lag catching up with the latest edition. Yes, plasma guns were undercosted last edition but these days we're all toting meltaguns, don't you know?

decker_cky
13-08-2009, 18:38
I would have done one of the following:

1.) As is, but 13 or 14 pts. Fact is, they're an interesting unit with all the boosts, but they're just way too expensive. Solve the obvious way by dropping their price. Should have Ld8 across the board.

2.) Ld 8 across the board, and the sergeant can give the unit orders like bastonne. Keep at 16 pts.

Currently, I think they can be alright in minimal units with double special weapons filling the role of drop troops in the last codex.

Vaktathi
13-08-2009, 19:32
I think that's way too harsh on the Stormies.

They are a pincer unit to be used in conjunction with another.

Of course then again I'm the stupid ***** that thinks the Vendetta and Valkyrie get way more credit than they are actually worth though and would rather take a Hound in -any- situation.

Units that are a no needle haystack are the Punisher, Ogryn, or the Deathstrike.

The Stormtroopers just need a brain to be used properly. And the appropriate metagame. *such as mine which has loads of Eldar, some Orks, some Meqs, and lots of vehicles to shoot at* I view them in the same way I view the Executioner. It's got a rather specific role, Plasma Russ, is great for MEQs and a waste on anything else.

Stormies are good on Xenos and Vehicles.
The problem is, other units can still accomplish these same things better. If I want AP3, I've got access to tons of ordnance weapons, lascannons and ML's. If I want pinning, again, I've got access to tons of sniper rifles, barrage, and ordnance barrage weapons. If I want anti-tank, well, I've got access to the most powerful and cost efficient anti-tank weapons in the game on multiple platforms that are likely going to be more consistent and be able to hit more than one target.If I want something that can do stuff in CC there's RR's and Ogryns or just massive amalgamated Platoons.

Pretty much anything that Stormtroopers can do, other units can do either better, cheaper, or both. That's the problem. ST's aren't going to be putting out more hurt on marines than Leman Russ tanks really that are much cheaper and Vet's can generally do the same job for fewer points and still be scoring. Vendetta's, devil dogs, medusa's and even Vanquishers will serve generally better as consistent all-comers anti-tank and usually live longer than a 5man suicide ST melta unit.

Some units are expensive and worth it. A quintuple plasma cannon LR Executioner for example is a threat to every army in the game. No army likes to see that. Even horde orks or something similar will not like it just for the raw number of wounds it's inflicting, and against SM's it can eat their army almost single handedly, and it's not bad transport killer either. ST's on the other hand really shine only against two armies in their intended anti-infantry role (Tau and Eldar) and are situational at best or outright ineffective against most other armies.

Jackmojo
13-08-2009, 22:49
I would have done one of the following:

1.) As is, but 13 or 14 pts. Fact is, they're an interesting unit with all the boosts, but they're just way too expensive. Solve the obvious way by dropping their price. Should have Ld8 across the board.

20 points on a ten man unit is not very much, it imples to me that they're not to badly overcosted at all.



2.) Ld 8 across the board, and the sergeant can give the unit orders like bastonne. Keep at 16 pts.


This would be nice, or even a special rule allowing them to receive an order from further away then normal might work as well (to represent their superior battlefield integration), although I'd couple it with definitively allowing them to benefit from FRFSRF.

Jack

grissom2006
13-08-2009, 22:53
Most elites are niche units get to grips with them and they work fine don't and they fall flat on there face deal with it.

Vaktathi
13-08-2009, 23:19
Most elites are niche units get to grips with them and they work fine don't and they fall flat on there face deal with it.

Yes, however there's nothing really that ST's do that other units can't do at least as well for the same cost and be more survivable doing it. Fire Dragons for instance are expensive elites in the Eldar army and it's hard to replace them, and they are very much worth their points and have a higher statline than the ST's. In the IG army there are plenty of things that kill heavily armored infantry or tanks very very well for usually either fewer points, more survivable,or both.

The fact of the matter is, ST's still suck for the most part in CC, they cost close to 200pts for a full unit after upgrades and before transport, and still need help wiping out an enemy unit, and need to be very close to do even that. As anything other than a 5man suicide melta drop squad, they are lacking compared to most equivalents in other armies and just about everything I can think of that would fulfill the same role in the IG army.

grissom2006
13-08-2009, 23:31
Say what you like about them i manage fine i had to adjust how i play with them and they work fine for me. Yes the cost more boohoo they also gained a better weapon Special Operations a Vet Sergeant at no upgrade to the unit. Also i can make a Vet unit up at almost the same points and still be as useless in cc it never was a stong point for them.

Vaktathi
13-08-2009, 23:42
Say what you like about them i manage fine i had to adjust how i play with them and they work fine for me. If they work fine for you then they work fine for you. I'm glad.


Yes the cost more boohoo they also gained a better weapon Special Operations a Vet Sergeant at no cost. Huh? They gained this from what at no cost? From old ST's? They are 60% more expensive than the already overcosted old ST's. Old ST's were 10pts each, 120pts for 10 with 2 plasmas (and were still massively overcosted for what they could do). Now they are 75pts more for the same unit with a better AP, and extra CCW (not that it's going to help with T3 S3 WS3 and I3) and some special rules, but their Ld actually went *down* on the basic guys and only stayed the same on the Sergeant and they lost Targetters and had a reduction in the range on their basic weapons from the last codex.


Also i can make a Vet unit up at almost the same points and still be as useless in cc it never was a stong point for them.And that has what to do with ST's? Neither unit is good in CC. The problem is ST's have to pay more for extra attacks that will still likely do very little good against the vast majority of enemies. That Vet unit also will probably have a transport to match the cost of the ST's.

10 ST's with 2 plasma guns is just shy of 200pts. 10 Carapace Vets with a chimera and 3 plasma guns is 200pts and can score objectives. Both units are likely to get pasted by anything in CC, but the ST's dont' have anything to ride in for that cost and are just as easy to kill, while being only marginally killier if you don't take the chimera into account.



*Can* ST's do stuff and be impressive? Sure. Can other units do it well for either fewer points & more utility, with more survivability, more range, or with all of the above? Yes.

Putty
14-08-2009, 03:13
the problem why STs are not viable for the competitive player is simple:

1) they aren't scoring

2) if i want BS 4, i have veterans (and they score, yay!)

3) they don't get weapon load-outs as flexible as vets (read: 3 meltaguns or 2 meltas and 1 heavy flamer)

4) sure they can do all the Marbo stuff... but if i want Marbo stuff... i'll just have Marbo LoL.

and the previous poster pretty much nails it with his comment:


*Can* ST's do stuff and be impressive? Sure. Can other units do it well for either fewer points & more utility, with more survivability, more range, or with all of the above? Yes.

and then again, if you are a fluff player or casual gamer, you won't give a frack if STs are "good" or "effective" in the game anyways. Right?

Joewrightgm
14-08-2009, 03:19
Every encounter I've had with Stormtroopers has led to them seriously mauling and or destroying one of my critical units. And most notably, my Necron Warriors have felt the mighty wrath of the storm troopers, as have my boss's nobs.

They even do half-way well in close combat; especially against Necrons.

I think they're great, and are worth every point paid, personally.

Codsticker
14-08-2009, 04:55
Ok the new storm troopers are decent and have their uses, but the majority of the IG players believe that they are to expensive. The special operations and hot-shot lasguns are ok but I think they should have given Storm Troopers the options for different special weapons, maybe a weapon similar to Tau's smart missile system, and made hell guns assault 2 range 18 str3 ap5 and lower the price down.

I think it really comes down to point cost- they should probably be 10 points each. I'm fine with only two special weapons and the Special Operations are great but I think I would have made the hot-shot lasgun S:4 AP:-.

EmperorEternalXIX
14-08-2009, 05:04
I would have given them everything the veterans have now, and instead gave the veterans...veteran abilities.

Ironmonger
14-08-2009, 05:16
So what they did was make them elite hunting elites. And they are good at that, even with their points.

Really QFT!

Drop-Trooper
14-08-2009, 06:12
I'm starting to get a llittle bitter about all the peeps that are saying that people who complain about the price of stormies don't know how to use them, that's just not true.

I use them for two reasons, first, I have my much loved inquisitor (non-power armour) army, so have many of the great figs and like to get 'em on the table, and two, i likes to play drop IG armies, now they've taken away deep strike on every one of my units, and you can only include so many Valks and 'dett's in an army, i find my self using the stormies even more.

Now it's true they're there to fill a niche role but they are not worth their points. I use them, I love them, and I know how to use them but 16pts is just too much. And it is true, everything the stormies can do, some one else can do it better and cheaper.

I'll continue to use them, because I can deep strike them, and the current stormies are wonderful models, and I do love the fluff, but GW did somehow manage to drop the ball on them.

And how many people who keep comming out with the "you don't know how to use them proper" actually play IG?

decker_cky
14-08-2009, 06:17
I think it really comes down to point cost- they should probably be 10 points each. I'm fine with only two special weapons and the Special Operations are great but I think I would have made the hot-shot lasgun S:4 AP:-.

Ehhh....10 pts would be very cheap. 12 or 13 I can see.

Oh, and only 18" on hellguns (should have kept that name) is dumb.

The only upgrades anywhere near what they provide are:
1.) Sergeant harker with his veterans.
2.) Carapace veterans in a valkyrie.

Those can cover the outflanking, scouting or infiltrating for the most part cheaper than stormtroopers (valkyrie = 100 + carapace vets = 100 vs chimera = 55 + Stormtroopers = 165, Harker either infiltrating or outflanking in a chimera is a good deal cheaper). For the plain old deep striking, they remain unique in the list (deep striking badly out of a valk doensn't cover it very well and valks tend to do better focusing on being a gunboat, though it isn't as important as last rulebook since redeploying is easier).

They need to be about the same price as vets set up to accomplish the same things, since they would trade flexibility for scoring. That puts them at about 12 or 13 pts.

And S4 AP- would have made them much better generalists, but I kind of like the unique S3 AP3 in the list.

Vaktathi
14-08-2009, 11:54
and then again, if you are a fluff player or casual gamer, you won't give a frack if STs are "good" or "effective" in the game anyways. Right?
Sure, but then, if that's the case, threads like this really wouldn't pertain to such players in the first place :p

Captain Micha
14-08-2009, 12:20
And how many people who keep comming out with the "you don't know how to use them proper" actually play IG?

I would have thought it was pretty obvious that I play Imperial Guard. Just check my sig.

Also, if that's not enough cred, I wrote a section of the infamous Imperial Guard Tactica PDF.

I also have pictures of my guard on Deviant art.

victorpofa
15-08-2009, 01:38
At least Assault 2 on their gun. They can't storm anything with rapid fire weapons.

wavynavy
15-08-2009, 02:12
yes they should have allowed them more secial weapons options and maybe a better toughness.

Codsticker
15-08-2009, 06:29
Ehhh....10 pts would be very cheap. 12 or 13 I can see.

Yeah, 12 pts. apeice would be alright. They do not have the durability to warrant more than that.

Lord Inquisitor
15-08-2009, 23:05
Agreed. I think at 125 for a squad of 10 with the current upgrades, I'd consider taking them in a competitive army over a squad of veterans.

Commander Zane
22-08-2009, 11:31
i love the storm troopers but the do cost way to much, but am still gona use them cause the special operation Airborne Assault is good if your deep strikin them at importent locations

Brady
03-09-2009, 11:48
i much rather a squad of vets. a lot chepaer and can have 3 special weapons instead of 2. people are saying ooooohhhhh aahhhhhh ap 3 lasguns. but what your forgeting is they are strength three. so lets say a squad of 5 stormys deep strike by a tactical/devy/term ... squad , choose re-roll scatter dice option, then youve got 10 shots from their guns ( rapidfire ) on average 6.6 will hit. you then need 5's to wound so on average 2.2 marines will die. its just not worth it in my opinion for models that cost 16 points each.

T_55
03-09-2009, 13:10
Because clearly IG are the best army, cause you know, everyone collects Imperial Guard, i mean, who gives a damn about those space marines, clearly Imperial Guard are the greatest army in 40K. Have you seen those lasguns, its like having frickin' laser beams attached to their heads.

I think your overreacting a little thoughtfoxx, just because a codex is new doesn't mean that there aren't bad things which can be improved (not saying storm troopers are terrible). Every codex has its faults and people simply like to discuss them. Its rather daft to say this unit is crap but this other unit/special rule is better so forget about it. I'm terribly sorry if you've taken offense to this discussion, perhaps you could, ignore it?

Vaktathi
03-09-2009, 13:13
Seriously, this is just a discussion on the Stormtrooper unit which many people feel was not correctly designed. Stormtroopers have been repeatedly flubbed since the dawn of 3rd ed, first being just bS4 guardsmen with Ap5 lasgun, then BS4 4+sv guardsmen with AP5 lasguns that cost almost 3x as much, then slightly cheaper but still expensive BS4 guardsmen with AP5 lasguns, and now a unit with lots of gear but lacking a statline to back it up and a cost that is quite simply punitive.

rjderouin
03-09-2009, 13:39
I believe that if you are playing in a tournament you would do a lot better with veterans, but thats kinda boring sometimes. You need the toy soldiers, the glory boys to get the job done, in the same way you need the big retards with heavy bolter's and three wounds, its not some min maxed no lose situation but its fun, and there is nothing wrong with taking them or not taking them.

kurac
03-09-2009, 13:44
-Same Basic Stats, BS3, 4+Save
-Inv.Save of 6+
-Fleet, Scout and Hit and Run
-Hellgun Range 18"/S3/Ap4/A3,Pinning

Cost: 12 points

AmasNagol
03-09-2009, 14:21
Imperial Guard infantry will never have the stat line to be elite. Stormtroopers' entry subtly highlights the fact that the Games Dev team still can't nail specialised units.

Vepr
03-09-2009, 14:51
I don't know. They are nasty on a lot of my nids because of their ap especially my stealers and warriors.

Arkondak
04-09-2009, 08:55
I always liked stormtroopers since third edition. I would never use them now, for the same reason i don't use sterngaurd veterans in my marine army, not because they are underpowered but because they don't make sense anymore; they have AP3 on a basic infantry weapon. All the 5th edition codecies seem to be getting an elite unit with an ap3 gun. I will be very suprised if tyranids don't get "hot shot fleshborers" for some elite gaunt unit in their next codex. It's just stupid. it makes no sense, and it's clearly there for game balance not to represent the background of the universe.

I liked it better when stormtroopers were the special ops of the guard, not big game marine/necron hunters; And hellguns/hotshot lasguns were simply better lasguns.

They should cost 9 points and hellguns/hotshot lasguns should be S4 Ap6 rapid 24" They should have the option to carry shotguns with manstopper rounds, and have the option to carry demo charges. also veterans should be able to use hellguns.

For mankind
04-09-2009, 10:08
Well the the stormtroopers we have right know have proven to be efficent, at least in the games I played them.

But what I would have done? Well the stormtrooper sergeant can exchange his hot shot gun for a bolter for free, and I think that would be a nice option for the whole squad.

That would make them decent allrounders, or even better give the hot shot gun a secondary fire mode something like S 4 AP 4. Rapid 18"


And now for something totally unrealistic:
What i really would love to see of course would be six fire modes:
S1 AP1 Rapid 36" (just for the fun of it)
S2 AP2 Rapid 30" (useless i know but still funny)
S3 AP3 Rapid 24" (sounds familiar)
S4 AP4 Rapid 18"
S5 AP5 Rapid 12"
S6 AP6 Rapid 12"

I know that will never happen, but I would pay any price (pointwise) to get such a gun. And it would be funny.

Legionary
04-09-2009, 10:21
Start off with a Veteran...........7pts/model
Carapace Armour....................+2pts/model
Special Operations..................+2pts/model
AP3 Lasguns..........................+3pts/model
...........................................14pts/model

Twice as expensive as Veterans, but 3pts cheaper per model. Five man squad goes from 85pts to 70pts. I'd allow the Sergeant to be given melta bombs. I'd also have a special weapon in there by default. Flamer or Grenade Launcher for free, Melta for +5pts, Plasma Gun for +10pts. Can be swapped for a Hotshot Lasgun for no cost. Second special slot is at full cost.

For no additional cost I'd make them I4 and allow the Sergeant to buy a powerfist. I think I'd also make them Relentless - again for no additional cost.

I'd also set Hotshot Lasguns to regular lasgun range - considering they're S3 and the STs are still expensive such an alteration wouldn't be gamebreaking.