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Lolhammer
14-08-2009, 03:03
I was just wondering if Chaos Marines are overplayed. I don't want to start an army that way too many people play *cough* I'm looking at you, Space Marines *ahem*. Anyway, thanks for reading and hopefully replying.

Vandelan
14-08-2009, 03:06
I recall hearing their sales dropped drastically when their newest codex was released. Then again, I'm not sure if that is accurate. I also don't think they have anywhere near the number of players that loyalist marines have.

If you want to play Chaos Marines, feel free to do so.

guillimansknight
14-08-2009, 03:06
I was just wondering if Chaos Marines are overplayed. I don't want to start an army that way too many people play *cough* I'm looking at you, Space Marines *ahem*. Anyway, thanks for reading and hopefully replying.

SM are underplayed and over-noobed

But yeah CSM are the most common army for people who have been in the game for over 6 months

Hell when the codex with the Crimson Fists on the cover was out you read that before going to chaos

Lolhammer
14-08-2009, 03:08
Ok, I'm just starting the game but have the very bare basics. Am I going to get pounded into the dust moreso if I go CSM? I'm currently playing Orks (410 point AOBR army, lulz) but I like the style and feel of the CSM.

Lars Porsenna
14-08-2009, 03:08
Personally, I'd reccommend playing the army you like the figures/fluff for the most, and the heck with what other people are playing. I do historicals as well, and usually do "matched" armies (FREX, Romans vs Gauls) so that people that are not specifically historical gamers can be introduced to it. But nothing sucks more than painting an army you dislike (like Gauls FREX...).

Damon.

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 03:10
I think sales to new gamers went up with this codex because it didn't suck and was actually understandable. Its the spikes, gets all the ladies lol. I don't think they've overplayed. I play too many paintball games against loyalists, I would love to fight more chaos.

sigur
14-08-2009, 03:12
...Anyway, thanks for reading and hopefully replying.

What exactly do you want to hear? Do you want sales figures of CSM minis in your region? Should be hard to acquire those. Do you want a survey of what armies people play in your area?

Just go ahead and play CSM if you like them. If you're lucky enough to have many (10 or more) people in your area who play 40k, it doesn't really matter what army you choose as there usually will be enough variety. You might get "pounded into the ground", you might not. If you like the army, collect, build and paint it. Or expand your Orks. 410pts is no army unless you use combat patrol rules. And please don't "lulz".



@Vandelan: That info about sales drops surely was not accurate. Apart from that, I agree.

@guillimansknight: A couple of interesting statements. I have no idea what the first one is supposed to mean or what data the second one is based on but whatever.

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 03:40
Lolhammer that doesn't make any sense at all. Please help yourself to some 40k fiction on space marines.

DuskRaider
14-08-2009, 04:11
Chaos isn't too overplayed. Unfortunately these days, you get too many new folk who start them and think the current codex is the end all, be all... which it isn't. It's pretty bland compared to what you can do with Loyalists, but hopefully soon we'll get Legion codices for Chaos and get our flavor back. Cross your fingers.

iluvatar18
14-08-2009, 04:22
Many people play multiple armies, in all likely hood there are as many Ork players as there are Marine players, and there are many Daemonhunter players that just leave their stuff at home because there codex isn't good.

So in short, all armies are played a lot, just play what you like.

(And there are so many Chaos Marine builds it really doesn't matter, your army won't be like the next)

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 05:46
Now would be an awesome time to play CSM. Their codex is a vast improvement over the last one.

DuskRaider
14-08-2009, 06:17
Ahhh... Moses, you silly boy! I'm not getting pulled into that one.

I will say in support of the new codex (CRAZY, HUH?!), it can add some flavors to some Legions that were otherwise kinda stale... World Eaters mainly come to mind. We lost the Khornate Axe, the Collar of Khorne, Banner of Rage, Blood Frenzy, and the awesome vehicle upgrade, Destroyer... But we've gained the ability to field a World Eaters army that's closer to their Pre-Heresy formation, with Assault Marines (Raptors), Tactical Squads, Chosen, Havocs... That part is refreshing.

Unfortunately, we also lost a lot of the individuality and taste for a lot of things too.

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 06:20
Ahhh... Moses, you silly boy! I'm not getting pulled into that one.

I will say in support of the new codex (CRAZY, HUH?!), it can add some flavors to some Legions that were otherwise kinda stale... World Eaters mainly come to mind. We lost the Khornate Axe, the Collar of Khorne, Banner of Rage, Blood Frenzy, and the awesome vehicle upgrade, Destroyer... But we've gained the ability to field a World Eaters army that's closer to their Pre-Heresy formation, with Assault Marines (Raptors), Tactical Squads, Chosen, Havocs... That part is refreshing.

Unfortunately, we also lost a lot of the individuality and taste for a lot of things too.

Ha ha, I'm not a troll, just passionate. But I must disagree. You can do everything you did before you just no longer have such convoluted rules. The fluff is still there, its just more in the nature of the Non-Khorny chaos gods.... subtle.

DuskRaider
14-08-2009, 06:25
Eh... I just don't like the "Chaos Marines : Happy Friends Edition" codex. They should have at least kept the limitations where say, I have models of Khorne in my army. This means models with the Mark of Slaanesh are prohibited, but models with Nurgle and Tzeentch are fine (and even Tzeentch is pressing it). Really, I do miss the awesome wargear you could use, like I listed above. Khornate axes were great, as were Berserkers with FNP. But the Destroyer... Ahhh yes. See, things like that to set my army apart from yours, or the guy's down the street.

Let's put it this way... I'm making due with what I have. If Legions came out next year, great! I'd be ecstatic and probably have a heart attack from so much joy. However, if I had to wait a while, I can still use the codex I have. I'm not quitting the game, I'm not quitting Chaos (WAAAY too much money invested now, lol). If anything, I'll probably use the IA: 7 lists coming out for a while, those should be amusing.

BrotherMoses
14-08-2009, 06:34
When I was considering getting into chaos me and a buddy used to argue about that all the time. Aside from the "counts as" answer which is too easy I could always see why you might have different forces working together. After all, as a servant of Slaanesh manipulating the boorish followers of the Lord of Skulls is all to easy. Sure the 1k sons will help the Black Legion... for now!

player21
14-08-2009, 09:32
Moses you are troll. I really think chaos is underplayed in my area. At one time I could throw a rock and hit a chaos player. To me these guys are not true chaos player. The great nerfing of chaos really turned some guys off. To me the codex is good. I have always said most chaos players and I mean most not all want to have their cake and eat it too

Craftworld
14-08-2009, 09:36
I have always said most chaos players and I mean most not all want to have their cake and eat it too

Man that saying bothers me; who the hell wants to stand around holding cake but not eat it? :confused:

ashc
14-08-2009, 11:15
The most played armies right now are probably Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Orks and Imperial Guard.

EVIL INC
14-08-2009, 13:23
To the OP, ignore the "this or that edition is better". All editions have been very fluffy and flavorufull. After all, it IS chaos and as the "coolest" army out there ;), it doesnt matter what edition it is, we are still cooler then the Fonz.
Seriously, DO ignore that argument as it is based purely on personal opinions. Make your own rather then let someone else forces thiers down your throat.
To your original question, there ARE a lot of us and I have actually seen more then ever before in the West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, DC, Delaware and Philadelphia regions of the U.S.. The good thing about chaos is, it doesnt matter if you play against another chaos army, it is still "fluffy" as chaos fights against itself all the time (yes, even internicine warfare within a single cult), so if you were to enter the eye, you would just as likely see world eater factions fighting one another as you would see world eater factions fighting thousand sons factions or any combination thereof.
If you want to try them out, give it a go. If for no other reason, the modeling and conversions are endless and opportunities are more plentifull then for any other army (yes, even orks).
@moses, Dont worry about the others, you ARE allowed to have your opinion despite what they tell you. Personally, I am glad to have less useless options for characters that never got used (I do wish they would have left a few more though just to make them a little more ott then all of the options already are now ;)) and more options when it comes to actual unit selection. Of course, thats just my personal opinion.

guillimansknight
14-08-2009, 14:58
@guillimansknight: A couple of interesting statements. I have no idea what the first one is supposed to mean or what data the second one is based on but whatever.

The first part means that the majority of people who play SM are new to the game and do what the GW staff tell them

Most of those armies are ultramarines with SM command squad, all las predie, 3 tac squads two missle/flamer. One las/plas and a standard dreadnaught


And the CF dex bit is what happened to every player Iv meet.

EVIL INC
14-08-2009, 15:37
Man that saying bothers me; who the hell wants to stand around holding cake but not eat it? :confused:
*brushes crumbs out of mustashe* Yeah, what he said.
That could be a great conversion for a sorcerer. Holding out a hand with a piece of cake sitting on the open palm. It could be explained in any number of ways but we would all KNOW what it REALLY meant.

Mannimarco
14-08-2009, 15:48
sorcerer holding cake eh? i can see it now:

sorcerer "join us in the glory of chaos!"
random guardsmen "never!"
sorcerer "we'll give you cake"
random guardsmen "hmm......for chaos!"

loveless
14-08-2009, 15:55
But the cake is a lie...

Anyway, Chaos isn't overplayed - in all honesty, there are so many ways to play Chaos, that it's unlikely you'll create the same type of list as another Chaos player in your area anyway (unless, of course, you both "powergame" and go for the statistically best choices at every turn :p)

EVIL INC
14-08-2009, 15:59
sorcerer holding cake eh? i can see it now:

sorcerer "join us in the glory of chaos!"
random guardsmen "never!"
sorcerer "we'll give you cake"
random guardsmen "hmm......for chaos!"
I did something sililar years ago in that I made one holding an epic marine in his hand. Sort of like he was creating a holo/mental image in his hand to cast a spell at or as asome sort of voodoo dol or something. My opponants liked it. The cake would be a cool variation (especially if you played EC. lol).

Grand Master Raziel
14-08-2009, 16:28
@Lolhammer: When selecting your army, you really want one that can hold your attention and keep you enthusiastic. No matter what army you choose, you're going to be investing countless hours in assembling and painting it, so you don't want an army that you're not enthusiastic about. I don't care if you have 10 people in your gaming group and 9 of them are playing Chaos. If Chaos is the army that grabs your attention, play Chaos.



Eh... I just don't like the "Chaos Marines : Happy Friends Edition" codex. They should have at least kept the limitations where say, I have models of Khorne in my army. This means models with the Mark of Slaanesh are prohibited, but models with Nurgle and Tzeentch are fine (and even Tzeentch is pressing it). Really, I do miss the awesome wargear you could use, like I listed above. Khornate axes were great, as were Berserkers with FNP. But the Destroyer... Ahhh yes. See, things like that to set my army apart from yours, or the guy's down the street.

No, that just makes you another guy using the cheesy 3.5 Khorne stuff. What sets one army apart from another is good painting and interesting conversions. A good conversion, well painted, is far more memorable than any shenanigans you might have come up with using the army list, unless it's some cheesy combo that ticks people off, but usually that's not the way people seek to be memorable. Also, if you feel strongly that worshippers of X god shouldn't work with followers of Y god, then you shouldn't have any problem self-restricting. That's what everybody else who plays a thematic list does.

Anyway, back @Lolhammer, regarding the so-called "flavor" of the last dex, another way of putting that would be that the last dex had a bunch of one-dimensional schticks (which in many cases were wildly overpowered) that it crammed down the players' throats as the proper way to play a thematic list for the particular Chaos legions. The current dex doesn't tell you how to play a particular legion, so you have a lot more leeway to select what you like and use your ingenuity and imagination. It also introduces the renegade warband concept, which fanbois of the previous dex hate, but which also gives you a lot more room to create your own personalized army. The last book gave you a grand total of 8 variant legions to choose from, and if you weren't playing one of those, you were playing Black Legion, so you had a possible 9 choices in all. The warbands concept gives you a lot more room to come up with your own backstory, color scheme, and organization.

guillimansknight
14-08-2009, 16:54
sorcerer holding cake eh? i can see it now:

sorcerer "join us in the glory of chaos!"
random guardsmen "never!"
sorcerer "we'll give you cake"
random guardsmen "hmm......for chaos!"


EDIT: random guardsmen "I Demand Cookies!"

DuskRaider
14-08-2009, 18:15
No, that just makes you another guy using the cheesy 3.5 Khorne stuff.

Yeah, because the options I listed were really cheesy :rolleyes:

You people are set in your ways and that's cool, but don't call me cheesy, because my armies are anything but. I actually go by the fluff and background, unlike you, which seem content with throwing whatever you want into an army, disregarding the established background, just to make your army as powerful as you can. Get a life.

DrDoom
14-08-2009, 20:07
Lolhammer: There's always room for another Chaos Player. Welcome to the fold. You're going to hear alot of crap from both sides about the new codex versus the previous codex, ignore it. If you like the fluff and feel of Chaos Marines then you have everything you need.

Snag yourself a copy of the codex and start slaughtering the followers of lesser gods.

If you're looking for a good starting force get some basic CSM troops and use them to get a feel for the type of game/army you like to play. CSM are pretty good at anything, and the cult troops allow you to specialize. Oh, do you like Rhinos? You're going to have too. For HQ go with a Chaos Lord for small games, for basically the same reason.

Grand Master Raziel
14-08-2009, 20:39
Yeah, because the options I listed were really cheesy :rolleyes:

Context is everything. At the time it was. Khornate chainaxes particularly bugged me (as did Ork choppas, to be fair), and FNP is totally inappropriate for Berserkers. Defense is the realm of Nurgle, not Khorne.


You people are set in your ways and that's cool, but don't call me cheesy, because my armies are anything but. I actually go by the fluff and background, unlike you, which seem content with throwing whatever you want into an army, disregarding the established background, just to make your army as powerful as you can. Get a life.

Hey, I'm not the one who can't get over the previous edition of his dex. Anyway, you seem to have missed the point, which was that the special rules of your army are not what sets it apart from other armies. The special rules you select for your army do not make other people remember your army. What makes people remember your army is having a good paintjob, having some interesting conversions to give it character, maybe coming up with personalized backstory for the characters in it. Those are the kinds of things that stick in people's minds in a positive way, not what upgrades you get to take.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what part about self-restricting for thematic effect =
disregarding the established background, just to make your army as powerful as you can. It seems to me self-restricting is doing exactly the opposite of that, but that's a concept that 3.5 fanbois seem to have trouble with, for some reason.

Lord Humongous
14-08-2009, 20:43
I think the only reason Chaos is ever looked at as "overplayed" is because LOYALIST marines are so prevalent, and the lists share so many common elements.

As to long term interest, chaos has a good visceral "cool" factor that, if it appeals to you, doesn't fade. If you like them already, chances are you'll like them 10 years from now.

Vaktathi
14-08-2009, 20:55
Ha ha, I'm not a troll, just passionate. But I must disagree. You can do everything you did before you just no longer have such convoluted rules. The fluff is still there, its just more in the nature of the Non-Khorny chaos gods.... subtle.Not really. There's far less Daemon options, there's no Cultist options, far fewer units with any sort of vet skills (and far fewer vets skills anyway), far less unit options, fewer HQ options, etc.

CSM's lost Furies, Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Horrors, Flamers, Nurglings, Screamers, Flesh Hounds, Bloodthirsters, Great Unclean Ones, Lord of Change, Keeper of Secrets, Chaos Lieutenants, and Cultists from the army. They also lost the ability to make psychic Chosen squads, Rubric Terminators (with a chosen Sorceror leading rubric terminators, the current Tzeentch icon terminators don't come close) the vast majority of vehicle upgrades, actual Marks instead of Icons (yes there is a difference, a CSM squad with an Icon of Khorne are not Berzerkers), countless wargear items, greatly reduced Sonic Weapons availability, Veteran Skills, many psychic powers, reduced Possessed options, Hit & Run on Raptors, Legion rules, etc...

CSM's gained Warptime, Lash, and Icons to grant bonuses to units that formerly couldn't take Marks. That's really about it.

CSM's then got "lesser daemons" and "greater daemons" to replace all of the Daemons listed above.


It's one thing to say you like the current CSM codex a lot more, if you do that's fine, but there is no legitimate claim that you could do everything you did before. Even discounting all the Daemon removal (which to be honest, I'm actually fine with for the most part since I never used them and still don't) there's still a whole lot that isn't there anymore. HQ's and most units have less options than they used to have as well.


As to the fluff of the book, they give most legions little more than a name and a color scheme. They go over the major events Heresy, talk about Brigannion 4, go over some of Huron's fluff and some renegade stuff, and give some background on the characters available, talk a little about the Alpha Legion, give a little blurb on the Iron Warriors, half a page of stuff on the Black Legion, 2 paragraphs on the Word Bearers, and a tiny bit of background on the Cult legions in the Cult troops unit descriptions, and that's about it. The fluff skims over a lot of stuff, but doesn't cover much detail at all.



As to the OP's question. CSM's are not exactly a rare army, they aren't as popular as Loyalists, but they are probably about on par with Eldar, and more popular than Tyranids, Tau, IG, etc.
The army itself is very powerful and can do all sorts of fun stuff, but is a bit cookie cutter in terms of internal balance.

DuskRaider
14-08-2009, 20:57
I agree with that. I've played mine through 3 editions and (3, 3.5, and 4), and I'll keep playing them no matter what.

@Raziel: I'll agree with some of that. In the end, our opinions differ and that's the end of the story as far as I'm concerned. I do have well painted armies, and I actually do quite well with my "restricted" Death Guard on the tabletop, enough to surprise many people.

If you think about it, Chaos isn't the most popular army. It's not even the second most. Third, perhaps. Space Marines and Orks will always have more of a player base then Chaos, but that's the cool thing.

guillimansknight
14-08-2009, 21:42
I think the only reason Chaos is ever looked at as "overplayed" is because LOYALIST marines are so prevalent, and the lists share so many common elements.

As to long term interest, chaos has a good visceral "cool" factor that, if it appeals to you, doesn't fade. If you like them already, chances are you'll like them 10 years from now.

Too true


Every loyalist who's played chaos while eventually turn their down the path of damnation

Once you go chaos you never go back

AmasNagol
15-08-2009, 01:03
Depends what level you want to play at. If it is just friendly games at clubs and stores, then please go ahead! You can put together all kinds of weird and wonderful army lists that can win against a lot of people.

If you want to go to tournaments and such, there's only like 2 viable builds that can take on the strongest lists. And they are both boring.

I am strongly considering putting together a LR Spam Khorne list though. It's hella fun on paper.

Gutted
15-08-2009, 01:20
@ OP. What you will probably find is Marines (this includes Chaos) of all kinda are very popular.

From the quantifiable data I've seen Chaos Marines are a rather popular army in the tournament scene. This may be due to their extremely powerful build options or a reflection of their general popularity in the 40k community, it is hard to say (probably a mix of both).

I wouldn't worry about this though. If you find the idea and the look of Chaos Space Marines interesting and like their style of battle then that what you should play. Chaos Space Marines also have the advantage of being relatively beginner friendly and have a good variety of army builds and play styles, not to mention almost unlimited conversion and painting options.

@ Everyone else. Bloody hell! This was a thread about army popularity for a beginner, why ruin it by turning into the same old whinge fest that seems to plague Warseer every week.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-08-2009, 03:36
Okay, at the beginnings of this thread my palms started tingling, hinting at the danger, but right around this quote:


It's pretty bland compared to what you can do with Loyalists, but hopefully soon we'll get Legion codices for Chaos and get our flavor back. Cross your fingers.

I knew we were in for yet another storm.

No. *headdesk* Stop it. *headdesk* All of you. *headdesk with blood spatter* This has been discussed. Words themselves cannot convey how many words have been spent on this topic, nor can the fit of rage-induced antics with which I am currently damaging my body. No more. Please. I beg of you. :cries:

On topic, there's four or five Chaos players at my store, but they all have other armies. Plus we have plenty of players who use filthy xenos scum.

DuskRaider
15-08-2009, 05:12
My bad.... :cries:

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-08-2009, 06:04
It's okay. Say ten Our Khornes and four Hail Slaaneshes. Chaos loves you and forgives you. In the name of the metal boxes, the blood for teh Blood God, and death to the false Emprah, all praises.

senorcardgage
15-08-2009, 08:12
I actually find it pretty tiring. At my local GW there is always 50% or more CSM or SM players. To try and combat it I try and use my orks, but orks are just too damn good, making it hard to stick with them...


At least with the new codex being IG there are a lot of those players around.

EVIL INC
15-08-2009, 16:14
Yeah, because the options I listed were really cheesy :rolleyes:

You people are set in your ways and that's cool, but don't call me cheesy, because my armies are anything but. I actually go by the fluff and background, unlike you, which seem content with throwing whatever you want into an army, disregarding the established background, just to make your army as powerful as you can. Get a life.
So long as you remember that there is more then one version of the fluff and that you personally like and that we have the right to like other versions which are just as valid.
By the way, I never called you cheesy. However with the reaction someone else got just mentioning mentioning that the 3.5 was a powergamers dream, I think he might have struck a nerve. lol ;)

Chaos daemons ared different in chaos marine armies now. First off, they were too plentifull. Too many players used the daemonbomb pony. First off, according to all versions of the fluff, chaos marines distrust daemons and rarely use them much less pin thier entire battleplans on them. GW would have been better off just restricting daemons to 0-1 units regardless of unit "type" (except greater daemons) and 0-1 greater daemon. However, the "basic" daemon now has improved stats so that they are still a great for the points workhorse that can be represented by whatever daemon models you like. While they lost out on thier "marks" they have gained in that they are outside of the FOC. You can have as MANY units of them as you like. If you have the points for it, you can have 20 units of them each counting as a scoring unit. Likewise, the greater daemon, you can essentially have 3 hq choices by having 2 reguler ones plus a GD. An opponant usually gets really scared when they see 2 winged DP coming at them. Add id a summoned GD at the last monent, they may soil themselves.

Overall, you can legitimately claim you can do everything you did before with the exceptions of basilisks and chhesed out hq. Overall, in unit selection, you can do much more. The cookie cutter of internal balence has been removed. Overall, a highly competative and fun army that you can use to accurately represent any chaos marine force in the fluff and likely any you can come up with that makes any sense in any of the fluff variations.
On usage of the army itself, it will depend on where you live and what those who live near you use as the statistics of army use vary worldwide.

DuskRaider
15-08-2009, 16:46
I don't want to argue with you EVIL. Truthfully, I'm tired of it. I'll agree with you 100% on the Daemon thing, though. And I really do think that splitting them into a separate codex to really represent how powerful (and fun!) the Daemons can be was a good move.

The only issue thus far is that GW hasn't released Wave 2 of the Daemons, and from what I read it was because they didn't "generate enough sales from Daemons in the first wave". Well, duh. Most people who started a Daemon army played Chaos Marines previously and so they had all of these models.

That's the part bothering me now, GW has teased us with this awesome plastic Daemon Prince model that will span from Chaos Marines, Daemons in both 40K and Fantasy, Hordes of Chaos, and Beastmen. Where's the plastic Plaguebearers and Horrors? They had the Changling on the release list, and yet... No Changling. Bleh.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 16:46
If chaos are overplayed then the BLT is the nation's favourite sandwich.

-IronWarrior-
15-08-2009, 18:35
Substantial dive. I play Chaos Marines and still get questioned regularly by opponents as to both:

A. Why am I playing Chaos? (random ranting about how poor the book is)
B. If in fact I am fielding Chaos, why don't I play the 1 trick pony obliterator zerg + double lash setup?

The book definitely needs an overhaul. At least at the two stores near home (North East PA) Chaos marine sales are WAY down as opposed to last edition.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 19:36
B. If in fact I am fielding Chaos, why don't I play the 1 trick pony obliterator zerg + double lash setup?

Probably because the attitude on warseer (at least, the vocal one) relating to chaos is an absolute cancer for the hobby and hurts everyone - chaos and orks are two who suffer from it the most recently (i.e if you don't play a power list you're a nub/are playing to lose).


At least at the two stores near home (North East PA) Chaos marine sales are WAY down as opposed to last edition.

In my part of the world the number of chaos armies has doubled since the new codex.

Anecdotal evidence? Never heard of it.

-IronWarrior-
15-08-2009, 21:39
Probably because the attitude on warseer (at least, the vocal one) relating to chaos is an absolute cancer for the hobby and hurts everyone - chaos and orks are two who suffer from it the most recently (i.e if you don't play a power list you're a nub/are playing to lose).



In my part of the world the number of chaos armies has doubled since the new codex.

Anecdotal evidence? Never heard of it.

I do agree with you.
You can win without it but let's be honest here. If your playing in a tournament you can bet your ass your opponents will be almost always fielding power lists, at least if they know what they are doing.

In direct comparison to Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Eldar and Codex: Orc you have to agree Chaos got pretty short handed.

Is their book competitive? Yes of course
Is it substantially weaker by not focusing on Lash Combo's and heavy use of Obliterators & Plague Marines? Yes
Is it just flat out boring? Compared to the last edition, absolutely

I mean I play & paint my army as Iron Warriors (check Chaos Gallery for some of my stuff)

To field a completely undivided army without the use of the cult units (with the exception of maybe 1 unit of Khorne Berzerkers), Greater Daemons, Summoned Daemons, Sorcerers or even Icons of anything but Chaos Glory would be as per the Iron Warriors Combat Doctrine the proper way to play the army.

Gav Thorpe did not give me that option if I want to hang competitively with the other armies. I'm sorry... but he didn't. I will take a mechanized Orc, Eldar or Imperial Marine army against a fully undivided Chaos army, pending that I don't roll anything above a 3 on my dice rolls every time... I will CRUSH it.

The book is fun but just doesn't produce that extra PUNCH that you can pull from other codex's without going down 1/2 specific roads.

EVIL INC
15-08-2009, 21:50
Yes, the book is VERY competative.
Is it substantially weaker by not focusing on the fabled lash combo? Most definately not. Here is where you will seperate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to chaos players. The better ones, those who have a grasp of tactics and strategy find that they do NOT have to rely on cheesy combos. That is why you will see that those who rely on them now or claim you need them to be competative are the same ones who used them before. Iron warrior players for example. Not to say that I didnt use a few of the old one trick ponies myself as I did at times but I found that if your good, you cant use the codex and consistantly win without them.
Is it flat out boring? Again, most definately not. You will find that there are a few who think so because there is not 15 pages of unused (ever) useless wargear but they overlook the fact that you can now more fluffily represent any legion. Look at Iron warriors for example, they are just as competative as ever before. The only ones you will see who disagree are those who used the old pieplate, onlit spam before. Those of us who were successfull with them before without relying on that (like myself) are still winning just as many games now and able to do so in a much wider variety of ways then ever before without having to go down any specific road at all..

-IronWarrior-
15-08-2009, 22:19
I can agree in the sense that you can win games by playing better.

It's just that I run a straight undivided list, icons of chaos glory ONLY etc and I just feel underpowered quite often.

In the last codex chaos seemed to get rewarded with the beefy war gear. Vanilla Marines get Assault Cannons (/drool), Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (amazing), Crap Loads of better Land Raider variants, Dreadnoughts that don't kill your own army and Iron Clads/Venerables. Assault Marines are WAY better than raptors with their war gear selections. Scouts which are excellent for taking objectives.

That was fine, in the last book chaos was under-technologically armed but made up with it with the crazy war gear, gifts etc that brought them up to par. Ya know what whole Chaos Gods actually giving them good **** to go traitor. Hell at this point I'm reconsidering sending the Imperium an e-mail to rejoin.

Daemon Weapons blow, only in a sense that for the points cost they should be completely RELIABLE. Having to worry/risk killing your own Chaos Lord every game is ridiculous. Gifts are completely gone.

Khorne Berzerkers while good are not what they used to be. Which leaves the Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Thousand Sons... all of which are very good.

I just don't think strictly power wise that it's even in the ball park of a fair trade up for what vanilla marines can field. I mean I play them now and their respectable player is explaining their war gear and rules to me more than I used too in the last Chaos Codex lol

I just hope some other players agree with me from some point of view.

EVIL INC
15-08-2009, 22:22
Your right to a degree but when you look at the cons, you also need to look at the pros (which are JUST as plentifull). Thats why I say I look at the glass as half full rather then half empty.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 23:04
Fun fact: the game isn't designed to be a competitive (in the sense of tourney play).

Claiming that chaos sucks because they cannot do something for which the game is not designed is massively flawed.

Plus, the chaos codex is still a top tier army without lash/plaguemarine/oblit spam.

EVIL INC
15-08-2009, 23:28
Maybe thats why I hold so close to the days of Rogue Trader. It was all about just having fun and both players "won". The referee was not even needed when you played for fun as we would work together as a team to come up with the scenarios. The sheer fun of those days caused (me at least) to love the older fluff varients for the same reason.
Oh well, the game is still fun, just in a different way.

IhasAshuvel
15-08-2009, 23:36
Oh well, the game is still fun, just in a different way.

I do sometiems question whether warseer is an elaborate troll, then I realise people truly believe silly things (such as chaos sucks and necrons are 100% unplayable).

I shake my head and then go back to praying for a new DE codex.

AmasNagol
16-08-2009, 00:52
A large percentage of the top placing Chaos builds in tournaments worldwide run 2xLash, 3xPlague Mariens in Rhinos, Obliterators and Defilers. That's a truth. It's just the most powerful build.

There are other COMPETENT builds. But I wouldn't say they are actually that powerful. It's like calling a Kharn+Khorne Lord, 2xLand Raider and Marines in Rhinos list powerful because on it's day it can pull out a victory against most people. Doesn't mean the list is a high tier one because the wheels can fall off very easily, and regardless of tactics and strategems, there is no technique to roll dice to get the results you want.

If we look at tournaments the best lists are not only powerful but they are forgiving if chance decides to **** over your shoulder. And might I point out there's a difference between being forgiving of poor decisions and forgiving of poor luck.

Craftworld
16-08-2009, 01:05
I do sometiems question whether warseer is an elaborate troll, then I realise people truly believe silly things (such as chaos sucks and necrons are 100% unplayable).

I shake my head and then go back to praying for a new DE codex.

I don't think the codex sucks; it just got weakened (IMO). I think a codex should make a player both proud of their army (fluff backing) while managing several ways to compete with the "power" lists.

I honestly don't think that the dex does either of these. It gives chaos players very few options for lore heavy / fluff lists; and makes the dex feel more like it's designed for renegade marines or piratical styles of play.

It's a solid codex with a lot of really powerful units, but that is little comfort when you feel that your codex has actually taken a step backwards in tactical options and fluff, but again it's all based on opinion.

IhasAshuvel
16-08-2009, 01:17
See, I must be in the minority in that I like my codices reasonably balanced - something the last one was not by any means.

Craftworld
16-08-2009, 01:20
See, I must be in the minority in that I like my codices reasonably balanced - something the last one was not by any means.

I don't think that was fair. Not everyone desires to power game, or have unfair advantages.

I am an admitted lore fan; I have a comedic amount of WH40K novels and spend more time on Lexicanum then is probably healthy. It is because of this that I was the most put off by the codex, and lack of actual chaos / legion focus.

In my GW gaming group this is the biggest complaint that I have heard from the chaos players - the codex is very bland.

Kalec
16-08-2009, 01:37
In direct comparison to Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Eldar and Codex: Orc you have to agree Chaos got pretty short handed.


Space Marines more powerful then CSM? Funny stuff. You should do some stand-up at the next Games Day.

BladeWalker
16-08-2009, 02:03
The new codex suits my army perfectly, Black Legion. I will agree that making a Legions army is much harder to do, but it's still possible. I don't see CSM as overplayed. In my area so far I have seen 3 or 4 armies including my own: Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, and my Black Legion. The variety of Chaos is still there and I believe that the codex allows for much more variety of army lists than most others out there right now.

Competitive tourney lists are almost all one or two cookie cutter builds from each codex, Chaos is no different. Lists made for the joy of playing and making an army that interests you are more varied with Chaos than any other book. I don't use any cult troops but I did throw a Lash Prince and some Oblits in my list for a recent tourney and still managed to take tied for 2nd out of 16 or 18.

Chaos is my favorite army because with just a small collection I can field a wide variety of armies and play styles. Keeps things fun and fresh. So, overplayed? Nah, just make the list you enjoy and tweak it as you go.

EVIL INC
16-08-2009, 02:20
See, I must be in the minority in that I like my codices reasonably balanced - something the last one was not by any means.I agree with you. You can usually tell who feels the same way as we do by simply seeing who is making the anti-new codex posts. Of course, that is not to say that ALL who make those posts are powergamers of course.
I have been playing this game since the mid-80s and have fully kept up on the fluff throught the 20 some odd years of time since then.
Just because the codex does not ram the current watered down fluff down your throat does not mean you cannot field a fluffy army. You only need to decide which version you like and pick your army according to the limits that your favorite fluff dictates. The current codex allows for a much wider variety of options when it comes to fluff variations in making your army. Just as with the daemons, it has its ups and downs. Those who are more fluff oriented are applauding it because of the added unit options while those who are more competition oriented (winning) are putting it down. Which side of the fence you sit on doesnt matter and you are perfectly justified either way.
Personally, I prefer the more fluff friendly version we have now even with the shortcomings that come with th good stuff and dont care how others feel towards it until they try to force us to believe and think as they do. That is why some people hate to see me in these threads. Because I always advocate freedom of thought and preference.

-IronWarrior-
16-08-2009, 03:32
Fun fact: the game isn't designed to be a competitive (in the sense of tourney play).

Claiming that chaos sucks because they cannot do something for which the game is not designed is massively flawed.

Plus, the chaos codex is still a top tier army without lash/plaguemarine/oblit spam.

I take it you never played in an Ard Boyz tournament :(

Ddraiglais
16-08-2009, 04:09
Yes, the book is VERY competative.
Is it substantially weaker by not focusing on the fabled lash combo? Most definately not. Here is where you will seperate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to chaos players. The better ones, those who have a grasp of tactics and strategy find that they do NOT have to rely on cheesy combos. That is why you will see that those who rely on them now or claim you need them to be competative are the same ones who used them before. Iron warrior players for example. Not to say that I didnt use a few of the old one trick ponies myself as I did at times but I found that if your good, you cant use the codex and consistantly win without them.

I would refuse to use lash as it's unfluffy for my army. Of course I haven't won a single game since the new codex came out.


Is it flat out boring? Again, most definately not. You will find that there are a few who think so because there is not 15 pages of unused (ever) useless wargear but they overlook the fact that you can now more fluffily represent any legion. Look at Iron warriors for example, they are just as competative as ever before. The only ones you will see who disagree are those who used the old pieplate, onlit spam before. Those of us who were successfull with them before without relying on that (like myself) are still winning just as many games now and able to do so in a much wider variety of ways then ever before without having to go down any specific road at all..

Umm TBH, I haven't lost a game since the new codex came out. I haven't played a single game. My army sits in my closet. How's that for "most definately not" boring. The codex is lame, bland, and uninspiring. I've played Chaos since 2nd. Now my army rots in my closet. IW are nowhere near as competitive as before. Spamming lies to prove your points just makes you look foolish. Yes I did play IW. So lets move on to your other lie. I disagree wholeheartedly with anyone who thinks the new dex is worth anything more than as something to wipe my ass with. In 3.25 and 3.5 I did use a basilisk. That is one of my favorite models. The rules were cool. It fit the fluff. I sometimes would use up to 3 oblits (if you want to call that oblit spam, then I can't help you). I'd use the oblits maybe 50% of the time. I was very successful. I changed my builds constantly. I'd go infantry heavy. I'd use lots of termies. I will admit that I usually used four HS, but I love tanks. I love lots of firepower. That's what attracted me to the IW in the first place. I did use a souped up DP from time to time. Other times I would use a regular warsmith or even LT. I had a second company that used the generic/BL rules so I could sometimes run with bezerkers. None of my builds were really OTT though.

Anyway, since I've started to calm down; I apologise if I got a little too zealous, but I am an IW player and did not use the build that everyone seems to hate. I hate it when people assume I did.

The biggest thing for me is the new codex is uninspiring. About the only two things that keep me connected to the hobby in any way are coming here to check on rumors of a legion dex and reading some of the BL books. Oh, I lied. There's a third thing. I play DoW (and it's expansions) from time to time. I know I am not the only one who has lost interest in Chaos. Some have moved on to other armies. Some have quit the game. If a codex is that uninspiring as to make people quit/take a long hiatus from the hobby, then that is an epic fail.

Lord Humongous
16-08-2009, 04:52
To field a completely undivided army without the use of the cult units (with the exception of maybe 1 unit of Khorne Berzerkers), Greater Daemons, Summoned Daemons, Sorcerers or even Icons of anything but Chaos Glory would be as per the Iron Warriors Combat Doctrine the proper way to play the army.

Gav Thorpe did not give me that option if I want to hang competitively with the other armies.

Did Pete Hains offer that option to WE and 1K sons players in the last codex?

Ddraiglais
16-08-2009, 04:56
The option was there. You just had to take the generic (BL) list.

Vaktathi
16-08-2009, 04:56
I think WE were fine in the last book.

Thousand sons were a bit under par sure, but at least functioned better as a coherent list. I don't think they were any worse than they are now.

DuskRaider
16-08-2009, 05:05
I think it's a bit ridiculous these current codex trolls call those who like the previous 'dex "power gamers". I played Death Guard in the last 'dex, and truthfully they weren't half as powerful as they are now, but they were a lot more fun. The Nurgle's Rot made team ups difficult, but that was part of the fluff at work and it made games more interesting. My tanks had Plague Carrier, it was so cool. Did I win every game? No. Did I have a lot of fun throwing together a list with all of the possibilities I had and go have a blast trying out something new, one way or another? You bet ya.

I really do think the current codex is a bit more powerful, and I'm starting to think these folks who endorse it so much are just as much of a power gamer as the "Iron Warriors 3.5", and whatever else they're belching out in these posts.

People refuse to play my Death Guard 9 times out of 10, because it IS so powerful. Know what I field? Actually less then I did in 3.5... Plague Marines, Terminators, and a Terminator Lord w/ Daemon Weapon. Hardly the most broken list in the world. So saying 3.5 was broken and 4.0 is so much more balanced is a load of horse manure.

And truthfully, some of you are cramming your views down our throats just as much as you say we are... Man... Hypocracy at it's finest.

-IronWarrior-
16-08-2009, 05:47
The biggest thing for me is the new codex is uninspiring. About the only two things that keep me connected to the hobby in any way are coming here to check on rumors of a legion dex and reading some of the BL books. Oh, I lied. There's a third thing. I play DoW (and it's expansions) from time to time. I know I am not the only one who has lost interest in Chaos. Some have moved on to other armies. Some have quit the game. If a codex is that uninspiring as to make people quit/take a long hiatus from the hobby, then that is an epic fail.

And we have a post worthy of becoming a signature.

BrotherMoses
16-08-2009, 05:48
@ Vaktathi:

Ok, ok I'll give a little. They did you guys dirty on the demons thing. THAT I can give you. Just to sell Codex: Daemons which was one of my least favorite (fluffwise) codex's to read. I don't want to know that Slaanesh spends all of his time in the center layer of his area of the warp lounging and surrounded by erotic acts and delicious food. I liked the idea of chaos as a force, a mystery, something that could not be explained. Thanks for trying to ruin that GW by writing them like Greek Mythology...:wtf:

And yeah, I didn't like the removal of cultists either. Mostly because I think that USUALLY thats what you see is masses of.... idiots serving the chaos gods dying as a human shield in front of the CSM's. Sort of like Gretchin for orks. But then thats kind of like saying the Imperium USUALLY fights with the IG, but when things get tough they have to use SM's.

So yeah, I can feel you guys on the cultists and daemons.

-IronWarrior-
16-08-2009, 07:03
I mentioned it in another post but I honestly think that the daemon thing was the weakest "We Need Money" bullsh** move by GW in the passed 10 years.

I mean, would a 1 stat difference be that much to ask for to maintain the fluff behind the army?

I thought about putting lego men down on the field when I summon lesser daemons because hell, according to the book THEY MIGHT JUST BE LESSER DAEMONS.

I might even try it at a retail store just to give the red shirt the middle finger when he tells me "I can't do that"

I'll than proceed to rip out the page of the chaos codex with the "Lesser Daemons" passage and wipe my bare ass with it in front of the crowd.