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eleveninches
14-08-2009, 20:07
Charachters:
475: Teclis [in phoenix guard]
205: Noble BSB (dragon armour, great weapon, battle banner) [in phoenix guard]
149: Noble (dragon armour, great weapon, loremasters cloak, gem of courage) [in phoenix guard]
140: Korhil [in phoenix guard]

CORE:
110: 10 Archers
110: 10 Archers

SPECIAL:
680: 39 Phoenix Guard (FC, banner of sorcery, champ has amulet of light)
80: 5 Shadow Warriors

RARE:
50: Great Eagle
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1999
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danny7865
14-08-2009, 20:29
how will you deploy 43 phoenix guard?Are you not concerned about a lack of magic defence either? only 4-6 dd is not much. IT's an interesting death star ill give it that

eleveninches
14-08-2009, 21:13
2+ ward against wounds caused by spells means im not bothered about most offensive magic.
Ld9 stubborn with a re-roll means i would prefer to be charged in the flank rather than in the front, so I'll probably deploy on one flank and go irresitable unseen lurker and pit of shades each turn.

could go unseen lurker on the unit, and then steed the noble out to charge pesky flamers (dragon amrour lol) or warmachines etc...

Nathangonmad
14-08-2009, 23:15
Epic death star is epic. But serious, I'd drop the shadow warriors and give both nobles a barded steed and get another Eagle.

fubukii
15-08-2009, 05:19
im pretty sure this army will do good vs anything but dark elves.

Ring of hotek and black guard are just too much

eleveninches
15-08-2009, 08:30
Epic death star is epic. But serious, I'd drop the shadow warriors and give both nobles a barded steed and get another Eagle.

Barded steed for the nobles means that they are not going to be able to have S6 great weapons.
And I really need the shadow warriors to contest a table quarter and claim objectives/ complete special missions

eleveninches
15-08-2009, 15:02
im pretty sure this army will do good vs anything but dark elves.

Ring of hotek and black guard are just too much

I would 5-dice a spell in turn 1 just to see who has the ring, then its easier to deal with him. I'll just keep casting unseen lurker on my own unit for a 20" charge.

Dark elves will still be a nightmare though, at least with daemons i have stuff to deal with them (loremasters cloak etc...) and I like the idea of doing unseen lurker on the unit and then steed of shadows on the noble with dragon armour. Thats 40" in one turn. Would be pretty good against gunlines and flamers and such.

Nathangonmad
15-08-2009, 17:32
Barded steed for the nobles means that they are not going to be able to have S6 great weapons.
And I really need the shadow warriors to contest a table quarter and claim objectives/ complete special missions

Okay fair point :P

chippyman64
15-08-2009, 19:03
what about deploying the unit in a corner and just sit back well churn the cheese.

danny7865
15-08-2009, 19:24
I imagine that people charging into the front will take advatage of the bsb and nobles poor saves

Rawne
15-08-2009, 19:32
no offence i just think list like this spoil the whole idea of WH :P but does look pretty scary

TheSanityAssassin
15-08-2009, 19:46
I imagine that people charging into the front will take advatage of the bsb and nobles poor saves

Assuming they get through the 9 WS6 S6 attacks with enough models left to hit them....

Danger Rat
15-08-2009, 21:11
Looks unpleasant and dull to play against but will probably qualify

Out of interest why Korhil and not Caradryan?

Danger Rat
15-08-2009, 21:21
Looks unpleasant and dull to play against but will probably qualify

Out of interest why Korhil and not Caradryan?

Mullitron
15-08-2009, 21:47
Not all to familair with the high elf book but since it allows no saves of any kind couldnt a lucky infernal gateway spell ruin your day very quickly?

SilverWarlock
16-08-2009, 02:16
Not all to familair with the high elf book but since it allows no saves of any kind couldnt a lucky infernal gateway spell ruin your day very quickly?

as far as I can tell, oh yes it could ! and I think I speak for most balanced players when I say "I hope that happens"

Not only that but I hope it's a dude with a balanced tzeentch list who happens to pull off an IF gateway. And that is why the rest of the world plays comped tournaments.

Mullitron
16-08-2009, 08:17
as far as I can tell, oh yes it could ! and I think I speak for most balanced players when I say "I hope that happens"

Not only that but I hope it's a dude with a balanced tzeentch list who happens to pull off an IF gateway. And that is why the rest of the world plays comped tournaments.

Would be a nice mix of amusing and horriifying to watch 1659 point go in one spell. Tho chances of rolling for the spell, casting it without being dispelled and then rolling an 11 or 12 on the two dice for strength are slightly slim. :P

eleveninches
16-08-2009, 09:49
Dont need carrie, cos the unit has a 2+ ward against wounds caused by spells. Korhil makes the unit stubborn, so I can be flanked or reared and still have a Ld9 Stubborn with a BSB re-roll.

Not all to familair with the high elf book but since it allows no saves of any kind couldnt a lucky infernal gateway spell ruin your day very quickly? Well, the first gateway will be scrolled by teclis, and has a 50% chance of the spell being forgotten.
Do the same against vamps. No more invokations for you MrVamplord :)

PARTYCHICORITA
16-08-2009, 18:35
I actually like the list. To me it's intriguing, i've never played vs anything like it and could be rather interesting.

Why 39 PG? number does seem a lil excessive and 31+characters would still allow a huge formation of 7x5. That would save up 120pts that could be transformed in more support units for the big block.

eleveninches
14-10-2009, 13:16
modified a bit


475: Teclis [in phoenix guard]
218: Noble BSB (dragon armour, lance, shield, barded steed, battle banner) [in phoenix guard]
149: Noble (dragon armour, great weapon, loremasters cloak, gem of courage) [in phoenix guard]
140: Korhil [in phoenix guard]

CORE:
110: 10 Archers
110: 10 Archers

SPECIAL:
660: 38 Phoenix Guard (FC, banner of sorcery, champ has gem of courage)
80: 5 Shadow Warriors

RARE:
50: Great Eagle
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1999
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oCoYoRoAoKo
14-10-2009, 14:03
O.o nice deathstar. i do have one concern though. What about terror-bomb slaanesh? I fought a similar list at the UK devourer but run by Chaos instead. It had sigvald, the nurgle guy, and another couple of characters (one bsb) in a big unit of chaos warriors of Tzentch. Needless to say, it got smushed simply due to a keeper hitting it in the flank, and then smashing its LD with the masque and the banner of despair.

stubborn is nice but when you are at a -3 to -5 penalty, even the reroll is not likeley to help much. Apart from that you should be fine i think. Good luck!

Cy.

keldon33
14-10-2009, 15:46
Hmmm... what about my unit of 8 bloodknights(w/bloodkeep banner) + vamp BSB/drankenholf banner/dreadknight + vamp hero w/blooddrinker/dreadknight charging your rear or flank. They have 2+ armor save 4+ regen save and deal out 15 ws 5/6 str 7 attacks. If I get a Vanhels cast off (with 4 vamps + a bound spell of it odds arnt bad) then we would roll a dice to see who hits first for both vamp heros + even with your ASF you need 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound then I save on 3+ followed by 4+ regen.

Furthermore, I would use my solo vamp lord (with flying and knows all spells from the lore of beasts) to charge teclis and your BSB in the front that turn. Having 10 PD, I should be able to sneak in the bear's anger, giving my vamp lord 7 ws7 str8 attacks. (again a vanhel's means we are rolling to see who hits first) but even if you win the roll, you get at best 4 attacks (1 teclis, 3 noble) with nothing hitting harder than str 4 against my vamps bears anger toughness of 6, + a 2+ armor save +4 ward save (from his magic items). Teclis is dead on a 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound. The noble wont fare much better either.

Ofcourse thats worst case scenario for you, with me successfully maneurving my bloodknights and such. But with you having concentrated everything on just one unit, even with your 20" range with spells, my units can still block and allow me to setup my charges right. Just a scenario I thought I would add in here :)

D'Haran
14-10-2009, 16:18
I get most of the army, but not the great eagle... he can't occupy table quarters, i'm not sure how much you'd need to march block anybody, he just seems out of place.

I'd just like to say I appreciate what you're doing and it should do well against many armies, I'm just not a huge fan of the death star units. I'd watch out for ppl charging flank, not that they'll break you but PG hit like a brick made out of paper, if it's early enough in the game and depending on the unit make sure they hit u in the front. Also I know you're not planning on taking the option but consider High Magic against DE's or possibly another army depending on the list presented as you could get vauls unmaking and turn that unit of BG on it's head.

Another concern is Daemon armies with the slannesh lord, or DE assasins, they'll be hitting before your heros and have a decent chance of taking them out, and a PG unit w/o heros is an accident waiting to happen.

EvC
14-10-2009, 16:37
Hmmm... what about my unit of 8 bloodknights(w/bloodkeep banner) + vamp BSB/drankenholf banner/dreadknight + vamp hero w/blooddrinker/dreadknight charging your rear or flank. They have 2+ armor save 4+ regen save and deal out 15 ws 5/6 str 7 attacks. If I get a Vanhels cast off (with 4 vamps + a bound spell of it odds arnt bad) then we would roll a dice to see who hits first for both vamp heros + even with your ASF you need 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound then I save on 3+ followed by 4+ regen.

Furthermore, I would use my solo vamp lord (with flying and knows all spells from the lore of beasts) to charge teclis and your BSB in the front that turn. Having 10 PD, I should be able to sneak in the bear's anger, giving my vamp lord 7 ws7 str8 attacks. (again a vanhel's means we are rolling to see who hits first) but even if you win the roll, you get at best 4 attacks (1 teclis, 3 noble) with nothing hitting harder than str 4 against my vamps bears anger toughness of 6, + a 2+ armor save +4 ward save (from his magic items). Teclis is dead on a 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound. The noble wont fare much better either.

Ofcourse thats worst case scenario for you, with me successfully maneurving my bloodknights and such. But with you having concentrated everything on just one unit, even with your 20" range with spells, my units can still block and allow me to setup my charges right. Just a scenario I thought I would add in here :)

So let me get this straight, you're talking about an army with a 450 point Lord, 300 point BSB, 200 point third character and 500 point unit of Blood Knights. Plus you must have 240 points of core. So you've got about 200 points left. There is no way you can hope to outmanouevre this army with yours, so you'd be in the position where you have to charge your Lord in without knowing if you can get your Blood Knights into the flank- and even though no-one has guaranteed Van Hels Danse, you are banking on casting it on the Blood Knights to move them in, on the Blood Knights again to give them ASF, and on the Vampire Lord a third time to give him ASF. I'm guessing that spare 200 points has gone on a Necromancer with 2 power stones then? So all Teclis has to do is destroy scroll the first casting, and you have lost the game. Nice one ;)

Witchblade
14-10-2009, 17:06
I like this list, but I don't see why you have so many PG.

keldon33
14-10-2009, 17:18
So let me get this straight, you're talking about an army with a 450 point Lord, 300 point BSB, 200 point third character and 500 point unit of Blood Knights. Plus you must have 240 points of core. So you've got about 200 points left. There is no way you can hope to outmanouevre this army with yours, so you'd be in the position where you have to charge your Lord in without knowing if you can get your Blood Knights into the flank- and even though no-one has guaranteed Van Hels Danse, you are banking on casting it on the Blood Knights to move them in, on the Blood Knights again to give them ASF, and on the Vampire Lord a third time to give him ASF. I'm guessing that spare 200 points has gone on a Necromancer with 2 power stones then? So all Teclis has to do is destroy scroll the first casting, and you have lost the game. Nice one ;)

Ermm, not sure how you think this army can outmanouevre with only a unit of 5 shadow warriors and an eagle? I dont take a necro, I take a vargulf or unit of 5 black knights. Send up the 3 ghoul units infront of the deathstar PG, keep the bloodknights postioned so they cant be charged by the PG units, use the varghulf/black knights to support flanks/where I need them to support. The fact I have 4 vamp casters all with the ability to raise dead means hes not getting rid of my chance to raise a unit of dead where I need a block, espicially with 10 PD at my disposal. Between van hal's, raising dead, using the varghulf/blackknights/ghouls to block/flying lord (not to mention also The wolfs hunt on the knights or blackknight) I have loads of options for outmanouevring him. Im not really worried about his magic/shooting and the units that can shoot are equally at risk from my magic anyways. Also with 7 DD, I do have a chance of stopping his unseen lurker at the pivotal moment he needs it anyways (although very unlikely with teclis yes). I dont think by any means you can say hes forsure able to outmanouevre me here.

PS. Only need to cast Van hels once. The lord charges with his 20" reach, cast Vanhels in the magic phase, he gets ASF in combat phase. The Bloodknights who have been blocked from charge the whole time wheel round to the flank or rear, they charge 14" range (could cast vanhels for 8" more, or wolfs hunt for 2d6" more [or both] but prolly not needed if blocked right) cast vanhels once and in the combat they get ASF. So really its quite plausible and Im not even using the cheesiest approach of having 3 units of 3 felbats to gain manouevre superiority.

As a final note, even charging my vamp lord in solo first would not be such a bad thing. He would stand a good chance of taking out teclis and the BSB in the first round of combat. Even if he is killed due to SCR he has done more damage than he is worth and fulfilled his role. Having tied up the PG for the turn the bloodknights will have managed to get in the flank/rear, and without teclis they arnt making any amazing manouevres anymore, therefore mobility once again is in my hands and ill get the bloodknights where I want them. My army doesnt suffer hard from crumbling since the bloodknights are vamps and the varghulf is too. With 3 vamp casters still around the game is looking good in my favour.

Treadhead_1st
14-10-2009, 17:18
I don't play much warhammer (still haven't got a large enough army to play games with, so can't play weekly), but how does this deathstar work? Here are my thoughts on some weaknesses of such a large deathstar - I don't think for a moment that a single army would be able to pull off *all* these tricks, but I think they are fairly common builds on the tournament scene, which is where your list is headed.

+EDIT+
I hope my tone doesn't come off as aggressive, though on reflection it may be abrasive - this is not the intent, but rather because I don't know how the "deathstar theory" works so I'm suggesting a variety of counters - if you could explain why these will/won't work I'd be quite grateful. Essentially this is a "noobs point of view" so my armchair-general counters may be flawed in principle.
+END+

Couldn't the enemy just take out the 26 other models in the army then stay away? Assuming they don't loose too many points taking out shadow warriors and archers (not too much of a problem I don't think - the forum view seems to be that Archers and Shadow Warriors can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag) then you're both playing the points-denial game.

Anyone with an "always strikes first" character might cause problems too - other High Elves, Dark Elf Assassins, Vampires with spells, certain Slaaneshi units (and Wood Elves with the "enemy always strike last" item). It'd likely be suicidal but couldn't they just launch themselves into the unit (steed of shadows, cloak of shadows, flying mount or somesuch) and pick off one of the characters? Anyone dying except Korhil and the Champion means the units effectiveness is hampered (either lose the 2+ save, the banner and re-roll or Teclis) surely?

Shooting might be an issue - 5+,4+ is fairly tough, but when you can't retaliate (except via magic, but that can go wrong) you'll suffer a few casualties, ie lose points from the Deathstar. Mainly this comes from the idea that the enemy can shut down your offensive magic, and can then pin-cushion the unit full of arrows and hope some of them stick without you being able to retaliate with any meaningful force.

Against anything Str5+ you'll only have a 50% chance of living, so cannon, trebuchet, bolt throwers, hellblasters etc will again whittle you down.

I get that the unit is going to be hard to break in combat, but surely if you are hit from both sides and the rear at once (not unlikely unless you hug the board edge - you will be horribly out-manoeuvred after all, with 1600-plus points in a single unit) it's going to suffer a lot of casualties and not be able to inflict much damage in return. As long as the enemy is using units that have an effect for multiple turns (say Great Weapon knights instead of Lance knights...though to be honest Lance knights may work, as even at only Str3 after the charge they are wearing a lot of armour and you are mostly only Str4) then surely this is very bad for you, as you're losing points without claiming any/many back. The unit would also be locked down and unable to move to contest quarters or anything.

What about Monsters in the flanks/rear (assuming it's paired with another unit to break your ranks thus deny you a bonus to combat resolution)? Again, the characters aren't fighting and you'll be losing models slowly-but-surely.

Magic may still hurt you - yes, you have Teclis' dispelling abilities, but once that scroll is gone you're relying on 5-7 dispel dice to stop the worst of the enemy's magic. If someone has gone magic-heavy then they may be able to out-spell you, eventually inflicting casualties (despite the 2+ save) through things like Pit of Shadows, Wall of Fire and Flames of the Phoenix, particularly if the enemy can make your dispelling attempts harder (say has access to Drain Magic). And there's the small spells to worry about too - multiple magic missiles knocking down 1-2 Phoenix Guard each per turn for example.

And any magic that doesn't "inflict a wound" might be a problem - such as Pit of Shades (iirc it just removes models, doesn't inflict any wounds) as the Cloak won't help (it only gives a ward against "wounds caused by spells", if it doesn't "cause a wound" but "removes from play" then it won't work by RAW).

I can understand the set-up is pretty tough, but I don't think it's as hard as was claimed (that only Dark Elves could beat it). I can see routes that many different armies could go down (suggested in this post) that would give them a relatively good chance of causing more damage than they suffer, which undermines the point of a "deathstar" (that of points-denial) does it not?

Like I said, I don't play too much yet so I may have the wrong end of the stick. Maybe a smaller "deathstar" would work, so you have more supporting units that could actually get you out of combat or at least make the whole army harder for the enemy to kill.

Wolfmother
14-10-2009, 19:10
i would mount the bsb he needs the extra armour save possible the rest of the charecters for the same reason

Papawolf
14-10-2009, 19:47
dark elf deathstar is simply superior to this one sadly so that is your toughest enemy
regen banner blood knights or grave guard may present some problems but battle banner will make them crumble pretty good
a clever vampire player will make either, one huge unit of like, 100 zombies which u will never kill and will hold you up for the whole game while he takes table quarters, or, about 4 units of like, 10 zombies, one unit will die a turn and then u will have the next unit to deal with the next small unit etc... again holding you up. then he will kill the rest of your army and claim all of the objectives while u have just killed a 50 point zombie unit
one problem u may find is that the unit works because all three hero characters work very well in conjuction with each other. when one dies, the unt is significantly more effective. and they are all pretty easy to assassinate tbh if your opponent has a reasonably tough unit or character which he is happy to throw away

also, tournaments nowadays don't really suit deathstar units because if your opponent is clever then everything else in your army is dead by like, turn three, and the big unit will be avoided pretty easily so you end up stranded while your opponent takes all of the objectives except for the one ur unit is one.

Arguleon-veq
14-10-2009, 20:39
Looks pretty solid to me. Unless I am missing something though, they arent immune to panic?. I would be worried about things like Hellshriek on a Splendour Sorc Lord, or coupled with Doom and Darkness.

EvC
15-10-2009, 11:36
Ermm, not sure how you think this army can outmanouevre with only a unit of 5 shadow warriors and an eagle? I dont take a necro, I take a vargulf or unit of 5 black knights. Send up the 3 ghoul units infront of the deathstar PG, keep the bloodknights postioned so they cant be charged by the PG units, use the varghulf/black knights to support flanks/where I need them to support. The fact I have 4 vamp casters all with the ability to raise dead means hes not getting rid of my chance to raise a unit of dead where I need a block, espicially with 10 PD at my disposal. Between van hal's, raising dead, using the varghulf/blackknights/ghouls to block/flying lord (not to mention also The wolfs hunt on the knights or blackknight) I have loads of options for outmanouevring him.

450 point Lord
300 point BSB
400 point extra Vampires
250 point core
550 point Blood Knights

You're at 1900 points now. You only have Black Knights and a Varghulf ina 2250 point game. So unless your tactic is "cheat", you can't do everything you say.


Im not really worried about his magic/shooting and the units that can shoot are equally at risk from my magic anyways. Also with 7 DD, I do have a chance of stopping his unseen lurker at the pivotal moment he needs it anyways (although very unlikely with teclis yes). I dont think by any means you can say hes forsure able to outmanouevre me here.

Yeah, I skimped over how both your armies are deathstars. But I still think he'llbe able to send your Blood Knights chasing Shadow Warriors, the Eagle,and even Archers for most, if not all the game, seeing as you have no screens.


PS. Only need to cast Van hels once. The lord charges with his 20" reach, cast Vanhels in the magic phase, he gets ASF in combat phase [1]. The Bloodknights who have been blocked from charge the whole time wheel round to the flank or rear, they charge 14" range (could cast vanhels for 8" more [2], or wolfs hunt for 2d6" more [or both] but prolly not needed if blocked right) cast vanhels once and in the combat they get ASF [3]. So really its quite plausible and Im not even using the cheesiest approach of having 3 units of 3 felbats to gain manouevre superiority.

You've stated you need to cast VHD just once, but then listed three castings. So, let's say your one casting is actually three castings (seeing as it is). And you also want Bear's Anger on top of this. And you don't even have VHD on your Lord, remember? He has Lore of Beasts. This leaves you with 3 level 1 Vampires, and you want to cast a 7+ spell on 2 dice.

It's not looking good for you, especiallyif you make these mistakes in the middle of a game.


As a final note, even charging my vamp lord in solo first would not be such a bad thing. He would stand a good chance of taking out teclis and the BSB in the first round of combat.

At this point, you're just showing your complete ignorance of the game. You won't even get to attack Teclis. Here's how it goes: challenge with unit champion. There. You're done. Your Vampire Lord is dead from CR. But pat yourself on the back for taking a Deathstar that won't crumble at least ;)


Even if he is killed due to SCR he has done more damage than he is worth and fulfilled his role.

He's killed a Phoenix Guard Champion and died horribly after being appallingly misused.


Having tied up the PG for the turn the bloodknights will have managed to get in the flank/rear, and without teclis they arnt making any amazing manouevres anymore, therefore mobility once again is in my hands and ill get the bloodknights where I want them. My army doesnt suffer hard from crumbling since the bloodknights are vamps and the varghulf is too. With 3 vamp casters still around the game is looking good in my favour.

Well, you've lost your Lord, Teclis is still around and an Eagle lands in front of your Blood Knights, forcing them to charge it and expose their flank to the Phoenix Guard.

Good game, you've killed one model :D

The deathstar here has many weaknesses and will suffer in many GT scenarios- but your army is child'splayfor it to defeat.

LooseMoose
15-10-2009, 12:02
Lol. Wish I was at Heat 2, I may just drop by to see how badly this does.

I expect anyone competant to pull this to pieces, especially if they play the Scenario and Objectives right.

keldon33
15-10-2009, 15:12
450 point Lord
300 point BSB
400 point extra Vampires
250 point core
550 point Blood Knights

You're at 1900 points now. You only have Black Knights and a Varghulf ina 2250 point game. So unless your tactic is "cheat", you can't do everything you say.



Yeah, I skimped over how both your armies are deathstars. But I still think he'llbe able to send your Blood Knights chasing Shadow Warriors, the Eagle,and even Archers for most, if not all the game, seeing as you have no screens.



You've stated you need to cast VHD just once, but then listed three castings. So, let's say your one casting is actually three castings (seeing as it is). And you also want Bear's Anger on top of this. And you don't even have VHD on your Lord, remember? He has Lore of Beasts. This leaves you with 3 level 1 Vampires, and you want to cast a 7+ spell on 2 dice.

It's not looking good for you, especiallyif you make these mistakes in the middle of a game.



At this point, you're just showing your complete ignorance of the game. You won't even get to attack Teclis. Here's how it goes: challenge with unit champion. There. You're done. Your Vampire Lord is dead from CR. But pat yourself on the back for taking a Deathstar that won't crumble at least ;)



He's killed a Phoenix Guard Champion and died horribly after being appallingly misused.



Well, you've lost your Lord, Teclis is still around and an Eagle lands in front of your Blood Knights, forcing them to charge it and expose their flank to the Phoenix Guard.

Good game, you've killed one model :D

The deathstar here has many weaknesses and will suffer in many GT scenarios- but your army is child'splayfor it to defeat.

Bah ok, Im only going to respond once more to you EvC since this is devovling to arguement on this poor guys thread.

First off, my list is not cheat it fits into 2000 points. Its been posted and verified, so you shouldnt assume this. 4 vamps, 2 with deathstar bloodknights, 3 units of ghouls with a vamp ghoul caster behind them who can keep pace with the moving army and has the bound VDM, and then room for varghulf or blackknights. I can send you a pm with the list if you really want.

He doesnt have the magic to stop all my raising of dead (since its a spell that can be cast multiple times and there are 3 vamps on the board with that power, and if hes using the dd to stop that hes letting my lore of beast vamp lord cast out the wolfs hunt and gain the charge on him with the knights) The knights will be screened obviously with the varghulf/blacknights, if not just by slowly moving them up in behind the ghouls (like i said, im not affraid of any shooting or magic this guy has).

Ive stated in an optimum situation, yes casting VHD once on the lord when hes in combat, and once on the knights when they are in combat (and once maybe to help get them in combat) is the best case scenario. But I never said I NEED this. Casting just VHD on either the lord or the knights just once and thats it would be fine for me, I was giving worse case scenarios, but if you look at his PG against the Knights and his characters vs my Lord, his ASF odds arnt even that good.

The vamp behind the ghouls is a caster, level 2 wizard. He will get VHD's off without much problem and like ive said if there is a problem, then there is the wolfs hunt with the lord. You dont know my list entirely, so your assumptions hinder your thought process here (which is why I would have rather not argued here about how can this situation come about, but rather what will he do if it does)


The challenge does suck. However it could only be accepted by teclis or 1 other character (since my vamp's base would only touch up against 2 bases at maximum and challenges need to be met by combatants in base to base contact). So he would be wise to keep his BSB away from teclis then (else he loses the D6 SCR and possibly may end the combat in a draw with the amount of easy wounds my beast lord can do (wounding his guys on a 3+ and then 2+). So in this sense yes, our HE player now knows then that keeping the BSB and Teclis beside each other would not be good (if he was even planning that, sorry if not)

If the case was though that they were not beside each other than yes I would not be wise to charge the vamp in solo. But so far lets see, he has 1 spell in which to move his unit double the distance it normally moves (if any of my ghouls or summoned dead get within 8" that spell is already useless). On my side I have VHD's both in bound or spell form (with a small amount of luck on the rolls) + the wolf's hunt + faster units if im marched blocked as well as him. You can bet ill be casting to march block him or even sacrificing the varghulf/black knights at the right moment in order to gain the mobility on him. So still, my original scenario of the Bloodknights charging with the vamp is not hard to believe.

And if i want to get real nasty... cast the beast cowers on his BSB mount there and the whole unit comes to a stop or else they leave the BSB solo and in great jeopordy fending for himself. :)

EvC
15-10-2009, 17:06
I'm just saying what 11inches would tell you himself, except I think he'd add a few more BOOMS and KERPOWS... you deathstar players eh? ;)

First off, read, think, respond. I totalled your list's main bulk to be around 1900 points, then said you can't have both Black Knights and the Varghulf. And you can't. Maybe one or the other. Sure.

Anyone who's played against magic-heavy VC a lot will know not to bother stopping raise dead all the time. Who cares about it? It can go through, and block off the High Elves, but it will also block off your own access to the army. It'll give his Archers something to kill and some free VPs at best.

The VHD issue is such a red herring I was really just interested to see how far you'd go to defend your awful argument. Yes, you can try and cast it, repeatedly, despite not having it guaranteed (Even your caster Vamp has only a 1/3 chance of getting it!), and it will give you a roll-off to see who strikes first. Wowee?

You still don't understand warhammer. Your Lord is on 20mm bases. So are High Elves. So, you charge in- you have to maximise and get 3 enemies in contact. One of thse should be his champion. In fact, if we think about it even more, if he puts Teclis on the corner, then the BSB next, then the champions/ characters, you can't even fly your Lord into Teclis in the first place as you wouldn't be maximising! Doh.

Let's be nice, assume you get off Bear's Anger on your Lord. 7 attacks, very nice. You're not going to get off VHD on him as well- you don't have it enough times, fact. Then his champion challenges. Assume he doesn't harm you, assume you hit and wound with every attack. Then assume he passes 3 out of his 7 4+ ward saves- congrats, you've scored 4 (Or 5 if this is the point where you say you have Walking Death). The High Elves have scored 6, +D6 from the Battle Banner. In other words: your Lord is dead. At best he might pass a few ward saves and hope to hang in there for another turn. When he won't have VHD, Bear's Anger, or anything to make him killier. One way or the other, he's dead. No amount of misinterpreting the rules will save you from that. I think you probably know what you're doing: you're not going to charge your Lord in unless you can guarantee you'll get your Blood Knights in the flank. That almost certainly won't happen vs this list, so you wouldn't suicide your Lord. Let'd discuss it no more then ;)

I do love the idea of casting Beast Cowers on the BSB to stop the unit moving though, that's great. You might even be able to get your massive charge the next turn (Although if he does Unseen Lurker, that will cancel your spell). With both of your armies being such one-trick ponies, I really think the best you can hope for is a frontal charge. With some good regen saves, I think you could actually win, as well! It might do the High Elf player good to take Lore of Beasts as well in this game.

keldon33
15-10-2009, 17:30
Ok EvC.. im ok with all that, i wont keep arguing on for everyone elses sakes. Except I would like to correct you that he cannot put his BSB or Teclis on the end of the unit line. If he did so my lord can easily fly into the flank, being a solo foot character he pivots on a dime and thats not a problem. The flank attack would mean the end character must face the vamp lord in combat as it would go: character in front rank, PG, PG.

Lastly, not being able to stop my magic means mobility back in my hands as my original point. Plopping a unit of 7 zombies freshly raised 12" from any of my vamp casters, then having that unit face perpendicular to the PG so that the 7 models stretch towards the PG (giving additional inches on their reach). Even if I move my bloodknights within charge range of his PG on my turn and spam raise dead (having 2 vamp casters in the unit with the ability to spam raise dead it will get off, and if not use wolfs hunt with my vamp lord to ensure a charge) I will definatly be able to raise a unit of zombies 1" infront of that PG unit and force them to either charge it or waste a turn reforming to face a new direction, in which case they will get charged where I want to. The bloodknights wont be baited by a solo eagle with EITHER a vargulf OR black knights (depending on whatever unit I choose to take) 1" infront before the round when I move the bloodknights close into the PG.

Papawolf
15-10-2009, 19:42
Keldon33, you have made some huge convoluted plan to kill his unit when really all you need to do is stcik a unit of like, 50 zombies in the front of the deathstar, with ur superior amount of pd, he will never kill the whole unit. mop up the rest of the army in a coupla turns and then get all of the objectives.
you could go for a vanhelse asf re-roll hits charge, killing off korhil and bsb asap. then he will lose, but it is a risky plan

Treadhead_1st
15-10-2009, 20:43
I'm feeling really unloved :cries:

Are any of my suggestions (post 27) valid points about this list? I'd like to know because I'm not really familiar with the idea of "deathstars" and this unit seems incredibly over-the-top in terms of points investment compared to the "Dark Elf Deathstar" that I have actually heard about.

And of course it worries me that I might face such a thing when I start playing proper games so I'd like to know if my random ponderings are the correct way to go about challenging a list like this ;)

eleveninches
16-10-2009, 11:57
OP here.
Thanks for the feedback.

The army I'm definately most worried about is the dark elf deathstar, though from what i've heard, the top dark elf armies at the GT were not actually deathstars. A lot of them contain a lv4, so probably no ring near her. Most of the GT armies I've heard about from heat one are not the ones i'd be most worried about (shade deathstar with mr3 and the ring would screw this army over any day).
Im pretty confident about it doing well against most daemon armies. Turn 1, send Mr.Kairos down the pit. lol. I've played it a few times against a really nasty daemon army that qualified for the finals last year, and it seems to do pretty well agaisnt that army.


I get most of the army, but not the great eagle... he can't occupy table quarters, i'm not sure how much you'd need to march block anybody, he just seems out of place.

I'd just like to say I appreciate what you're doing and it should do well against many armies, I'm just not a huge fan of the death star units. I'd watch out for ppl charging flank, not that they'll break you but PG hit like a brick made out of paper, if it's early enough in the game and depending on the unit make sure they hit u in the front. Also I know you're not planning on taking the option but consider High Magic against DE's or possibly another army depending on the list presented as you could get vauls unmaking and turn that unit of BG on it's head.

Another concern is Daemon armies with the slannesh lord, or DE assasins, they'll be hitting before your heros and have a decent chance of taking them out, and a PG unit w/o heros is an accident waiting to happen.The eagle is there to march block and to bait frenzied units and not much else. The fact that he can flee 3D6 from frenzied units and rally then fly back to keep doing to same thing is quite funny. Actually, most armies I would not mind them charging my flank to be honest. They wont kill many PG's (do you realise how useful that 4+ ward is???). And then I have insane static combat res (BSB, banner, outnumber, battle banner, meaning that I will actually win MOST combats even if charged in the flank). Depends on the unit to be honest, some stuff (hydras etc..) I will want to charge me in the flank/rear, but some stuff I wil want to charge me in the front if I am confident I can kill enough to keep my charachters alive.



O.o nice deathstar. i do have one concern though. What about terror-bomb slaanesh? I fought a similar list at the UK devourer but run by Chaos instead. It had sigvald, the nurgle guy, and another couple of characters (one bsb) in a big unit of chaos warriors of Tzentch. Needless to say, it got smushed simply due to a keeper hitting it in the flank, and then smashing its LD with the masque and the banner of despair.

stubborn is nice but when you are at a -3 to -5 penalty, even the reroll is not likeley to help much. Apart from that you should be fine i think. Good luck!

Cy.
I was thinking of how to counter a slaaneshi deamon ld-bomb, and it shouldnt be that much of a problem. As soon as they get within range of the unit to use the -2/-5 things, I will be within range with my magic (choosing from light to defeat a kipper ld bomb) and make my unit imune to psych in my turn, them do a cleansing flare to kill his masque and -2 Ld BSB.


Hmmm... what about my unit of 8 bloodknights(w/bloodkeep banner) + vamp BSB/drankenholf banner/dreadknight + vamp hero w/blooddrinker/dreadknight charging your rear or flank. They have 2+ armor save 4+ regen save and deal out 15 ws 5/6 str 7 attacks. If I get a Vanhels cast off (with 4 vamps + a bound spell of it odds arnt bad) then we would roll a dice to see who hits first for both vamp heros + even with your ASF you need 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound then I save on 3+ followed by 4+ regen.

Furthermore, I would use my solo vamp lord (with flying and knows all spells from the lore of beasts) to charge teclis and your BSB in the front that turn. Having 10 PD, I should be able to sneak in the bear's anger, giving my vamp lord 7 ws7 str8 attacks. (again a vanhel's means we are rolling to see who hits first) but even if you win the roll, you get at best 4 attacks (1 teclis, 3 noble) with nothing hitting harder than str 4 against my vamps bears anger toughness of 6, + a 2+ armor save +4 ward save (from his magic items). Teclis is dead on a 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound. The noble wont fare much better either.

Ofcourse thats worst case scenario for you, with me successfully maneurving my bloodknights and such. But with you having concentrated everything on just one unit, even with your 20" range with spells, my units can still block and allow me to setup my charges right. Just a scenario I thought I would add in here :)
Um, charge your lord into the front of my unit, and hel find himself in a challenge with a PG champ with a 4+ ward. Not really worth sacrificing your lord for, is it?
Um, good luck getting your blood knights into my flank when I have shadow warriors and eagle to bait them with. Also, dont rely on your magic getting off very often. Against an army like this, I probably woudnt go from shadow anyway. I'd probably go for metal to be honest, irresistable spirit of the forge each turn would pretty much screw up your blood knight unit (no armour saves, no regen). And then maybe pick your charachters out with rule of burning iron.
Oh, and I can use tec's scroll of forgetfullness to get rid of either van hels or invok on your lord when he casts it for the first time of the game (only works 50% of the time, but its so funny against vamp armies).

I'm feeling really unloved

Are any of my suggestions (post 27) valid points about this list? I'd like to know because I'm not really familiar with the idea of "deathstars" and this unit seems incredibly over-the-top in terms of points investment compared to the "Dark Elf Deathstar" that I have actually heard about.

And of course it worries me that I might face such a thing when I start playing proper games so I'd like to know if my random ponderings are the correct way to go about challenging a list like this
Yeah, shooting can be an issue, but only if its a LOT of shooting. And if its a shooting-heavy army, then I can simply march+unseenlurker 20" towards it, maybe charge a unit if within range, then do crown of taidron to the shooty units within range of me, which should seriously destroy their shooting ability before they can do to much damage to me(they do need to kill 19 phoenix guard to ge t half points for the unit). Plus, the fact that i dont honestly expect to see many shooty armies at this years GT (except for anvil ones of course). Hmmm, wrath and ruin + gyrocopter + cannons could slow me down and do a lot of damage. Well, I suppose in that case I could be boring and sit at the back of the board and cast uranons thunderbolt and comet everyturn onto their gunline. And against the double stank list, I could just go from metal and PWN their steamtanks.

eleveninches
16-10-2009, 12:08
Lol. Wish I was at Heat 2, I may just drop by to see how badly this does.



Thats not very kind :( :cries:

I dont see why im being flamed for trying something different from the usual daemon/delf filth builds. Its something I've not seen anyone try before with high elves, so its something different and original.

theloniouskrunk
16-10-2009, 12:55
I'd like to play this, maybe I will see you at heat 2 and get to give it a go!

I can't help but think you're relying a bit too heavily on your 4+ ward. it's still only a 50/50 save against anything with S5 or more. Not sure how my Dwarfs would fare, but that is one big basket full of eggs.

I'm sure you'll smash some armies to bits but others will roll over you with a lucky panic test or something silly.

Treadhead_1st
16-10-2009, 13:10
Yeah, shooting can be an issue, but only if its a LOT of shooting. And if its a shooting-heavy army, then I can simply march+unseenlurker 20" towards it, maybe charge a unit if within range, then do crown of taidron to the shooty units within range of me, which should seriously destroy their shooting ability before they can do to much damage to me(they do need to kill 19 phoenix guard to ge t half points for the unit). Plus, the fact that i dont honestly expect to see many shooty armies at this years GT (except for anvil ones of course). Hmmm, wrath and ruin + gyrocopter + cannons could slow me down and do a lot of damage. Well, I suppose in that case I could be boring and sit at the back of the board and cast uranons thunderbolt and comet everyturn onto their gunline. And against the double stank list, I could just go from metal and PWN their steamtanks.

Again, I don't know much about the application of such a unit, but:

Wouldn't a balanced force be the hardest to beat with the Deathstar? It does seem like it will do quite well against the extreme tournament lists (Stank/Walter) that rely on one-trick-ponies or combos to win; but what about an army that has a fair amount of shooting (to threaten the deathstar with) but still contains a good number of combat units, magic, fast-moving units and so on - each "phase" will be relatively weak an inefficient against this force, but the turn as a whole may see a fair amount of damage inflicted.

I think you could make this work using a much smaller unit of Phoenix Guard, and using the points saved to pick up some more units of your own. Right now cavalry and shooting might cause you issues IMO, but if you have fast cavalry or similar of your own then you can engage enemy support units and actually end up earning some victory points yourself instead of just denying them from the enemy (as this block isn't very killy - the characters will cause damage if it manages to hit an enemy unit, but once it's engaged a single unit a smart player will flank/rear it where, though they may not kill many models, they will be out of attack range of the heroes and denying your your rank bonuses and so on - and Phoenix Guard aren't exactly reknowned for their combat prowess so you'll likely be losing/tying combat more than winning it (as you'll averagely roll 3-4 for the banner, and the enemy will have +2 for rear, +2 or 3 for ranks - kills will probably average out if not go in the enemy's favour).

Sure, you won't be running anywhere thanks to the high Ld, but then you are locked in combat so can't cast as many spells, aren't killing very much and aren't moving anywhere - all whilst the opponent has time (and likely spare units) to get around the board claiming objectives, table quarters and eliminating the paltry, small support units you are currently fielding.

That's why I think you need more supporting units of your own, to counter the enemy's mobility, to flank the units that have flanked you and so on and so forth.

oCoYoRoAoKo
16-10-2009, 13:35
I was thinking of how to counter a slaaneshi deamon ld-bomb, and it shouldnt be that much of a problem. As soon as they get within range of the unit to use the -2/-5 things, I will be within range with my magic (choosing from light to defeat a kipper ld bomb) and make my unit imune to psych in my turn, them do a cleansing flare to kill his masque and -2 Ld BSB.


Hmm, im not so sure that your plan will work so well. Something to bear in mind: The kipper, herald and the masque all have a 20" march/charge range, along with seekers. this enables the daemon payer to manouver into place whilst keeping out of range of cleansing flare (and if your opponent plays anything like i do, the masque/herald will be out of sight behind the keeper). at this point he can either a. have the keeper at the front, and seekers in the side, or b. the other way round (i know this doesnt take redirectors/march blockers into account, but its usual that there will also be some furies about to try and stop you from doing the same).

The range of the masque and banner's abilities are both 12". ITP does not help here because you are still affected by them regardless (it is not just terror bomb you have to worry about here). On the turn that the daemon player wishes to charge you will be at an average of -4ld. Following charges by the seekers and Keeper (and probably the masque also given correct positioning), it is quite likely you will loose the combat and have to start taking heavily modified tests. Granted, if you do stick around, the cleansing flare plan should, theoretically work depending on where the herald and masque are in relation to Teclis.

I am going to heat 2 myself so maybe you will get to test that scenario out ;)

Cy.

eleveninches
16-10-2009, 18:51
Hmmmm, not convinced that I would lose the combat to be honest, even with kipper in the front and seekers in the side. Kipper will be challenged out by my PG champ,, with his 4+ ward, so kipper will probably cause 3-4 wounds on him max. The battle banner and outnumber may save the day there.

Papawolf
17-10-2009, 10:14
throgg + sigisvald deathstar kills it, black guard, banner of nagaerythe, ring of hotek kills it, shadestar kills it, grave guard with regen kills it
a stank or two would hurt it (take a while to kill it though)
chaos knights with MoN and frenzy banner with a chaos hero in it...kills it
a large number of skinks and some salamanders will hurt it a lot
its a pretty average deathstar really. against a nice balanced army in pitched battle it will do OK...but you are not gonna be facing many nice balanced armies in pitched battle scenarios at GT lets be honest

^_^

eleveninches
17-10-2009, 10:58
Well, the only thing im really not looking forward to facing is the dark elf deathstar with mr3 and ring of hotek. Most other things i think i have a good chance against.

eleveninches
22-10-2009, 07:22
dropped 3 PG's and dropped the archers to spears (4+ save in combat, much more survivable) and used the points to get another unit of shadow warriors for contesting table quarters and other tictacy stuff. Still, with dropping 3 PG's it means that the number that need to die to get half points from it is only reduced by 1.

Charachters:
475: Teclis [in phoenix guard]
218: Noble BSB (dragon armour, barded steed, lance, shield, battle banner) [in phoenix guard]
151: Noble (dragon armour, shield, great weapon, loremasters cloak, gem of courage) [in phoenix guard]
140: Korhil [in phoenix guard]

CORE:
95: 10 Spears (musician)
95: 10 Spears (musician)

SPECIAL:
615: 35 Phoenix Guard (FC, banner of sorcery, champ has gem of courage)
80: 5 Shadow Warriors
80: 5 Shadow Warriors

RARE:
50: Great Eagle
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