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shadowprince
10-01-2006, 02:51
Core

Spear elf 10pts unit min 10+
M Ws Bs S T A I W Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Armor light armor shield
Weapons spear hand weapon

May drop spears at -2 pts per model
May ad heavy armor at 1pt per model
Upgrade 1 spearmen to champion at 12pts +1A
Add a standard bearer 12pts
Add a musician 6pts
Citizen Levy When using spears fight in one additional rank

Archer 12pts unit min 10+
M Ws Bs S T A I W Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Armor none
Weapons hand weapon long bow
Champion 12pts +1 Bs
Standard 12 points
Musician 6pts
Citizen Levy Fire in one additional rank when using longbows

0-1 Lothern Seaguard 15pts unit min 10+
M Ws BS S T A I W Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Armor light armor shield
Weapons spear, hand weapon bow
Champion 13 points +1A +1BS
Standard 12pts
Musician 12pts
Citizen Levy may fight in one additional ranks while using spears, and may fire in one additional rank while using bows.

Silver Helms 19pts unit min 5+
M Ws Bs S T A I W Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 rider
9 3 0 3 3 1 3 1 6 steed
Armor heavy armor
Weapons Lance hand weapon
May take a shield or an extra hand weapon +2pts
May take barding for steed at +2pts
Champion 14pts +1A
Standard 14pts
Musician 7pts
Nobility if no silver spearmen or archers are present then only 2 units may be taken

First among equals 1 unit of silver hemls spearmen or lothern seaguard may have a magical banner worth up to 25 pts.




Special

Ellyrion Reavers 20pts unit min 5+
M Ws BS S T A I W Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 rider
9 3 0 3 3 1 3 1 6 steed
Armor light armor, shield
Weapons spear hand weapon
May drop spears and be given a bow at 4 pts per model
May take a bow at 5 points per model
Champion 14pts +1A
Standard 14pts
Musician 7pts
Fast Calvary

Tironic Chariot 85pts
M Ws Bs S T A I W Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 crew
9 3 0 3 3 1 3 1 6 steed
- - - 5 4 - - 4 - chariot
2 crew and 2 steeds
Armor save of 5+
May take scythed wheels at +5 pts
May take up to 2 additional horses at +7pts

Shadow warriors 15pts unit min 5+
M Ws Bs S T A I W Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Armor light armor
Weapons Longbow hand weapon
May take an additional hand weapon at +2 pts
May have a champion at +7 pts +1 Bs
Hate Dark Elf’s






















0-1 Sword Masters 14pts unit min 10+
M Ws Bs S T A I W LD
5 6 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Armor heavy armor
Weapons Great weapon, hand weapon.
Champion 12 pts +1 Attack may take a magic Item worht up to 15 points
Standard 12pts may take magical standard worth up to 50 points
Musician 6pts

-1 to being shot at +2 points

0-1 If both upgrades are taken instead of taking a champion as normal may take a Blade weaver, a blade weaver has a weapon that gives +1 strength, adds 1MR to the unit, may take up to 25 points of magic items, and can cast any of the three spells below as a bound spell at power level three. Upgrade costs 25 points

Sword master sword Masters ignore the strike last rule for great weapons.

Spell 1 Arcane Blast
Magic missile doing d6 Strength 4 hits

Spell 2 Arcane Shield
Increase the ward save of the sword masters to 4+ for until the start of your next magic phase.

Spell 3 Arcane imbuement
Sword masters count as having Magical attacks, that add an additional -1 to the opponents armor save

0-1 Dragon Princes 28pts unit min 5+
M Ws Bs S T A I W LD
5 5 4 3 3 1 6 1 9 rider
9 3 0 3 3 1 3 1 6 steed
Armor, Dragon armor, shield, ilthimar barding
Weapon, dragon lance, hand weapon
Champion +18 pts +1A may take a magic Item up to 25pts
Standard +18pts may take a magical standard up to 50 points
Musician +9pts

Dragon armor- counts as heavy armor, ignore fire based attacks
Ilithamar armor- horses do not suffer -1 movement for being barded
Dragon lance- +3 strength on the charge















0-1 White Lions 13pts unit min 8+
M Ws Bs S T A I W Ld
5 5 5 4 3 1 5 1 9
Armor Light armor
Weapon Great Axe hand weapon
Champion +12 pts +1 Attack May have 20pts of magic items
Standard +12pts may carry a magic standard worth up to 50 points
Musician +6pts

Body guard- stubborn if a commander is with them or if a Prince is within 12 inches
Skirmish
Lion Cloak- White lion have an additional +2 to their armor save vs. shooting.

Rare

Eagle Claw Repeating Bolt Thrower 100pts
M Ws Bs S T A I W LD
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 crew
- - - - 7 - - 3 - bolt thrower
1-2 bolt throwers equals 1 rare choice
Bolt Thrower
Rapid Fire indtead of the normal big bolt the bolt thrower may decide to shoot 6 str4 shots with a range of 48 inches and a -2 to armor save

Great Eagle 50pts
M Ws Bs S T A I W Ld
2 5 0 4 4 2 5 3 8
1-2 Great Eagles is one rare choice
Flying

0-1 Phoenix guard 13pts unit in 10+
M Ws Bs S T A I W Ld
5 5 4 3 3 1 6 1 9
Armor Full plate armor
Weapon Halberd hand weapon
Champion +12pts may have 25 points of magic items
Standard +12pts may have a magical standard worth up to 50pts
Musician 6 points

Immune to psychology














Special rules
Stoic all high elf units will not panic from shooting or magic while fight Dark Elf’s\

A Dwindling Race
Do to the small amount of asur in comparison to other races, and their use to fighting at a great number deficiency high elf’s for the purpose of combat resolution are only outnumbered by a ratio of 2-1

This is with the few changes that where suggested, I will be posting characters by friday. Moved here as eldacar suggested.

Hellebore
13-01-2006, 07:19
Instead of having the spearmen with a negative option (-2pts for spears) I would instead make them start without them and make it an upgrade.

SO they start at 8 pts, but I would only make the spear cost 1 pt.

Also, I don't think they should be able to take heavy armour. Despite the arguments over elven craftsmanship etc, heavy armour is only worn by elite soldiers in warhammer, not the 'grunts' (excepting the dwarfs of course). Maybe they could have ithilmar chain that ignores and additional armour sv pt, but doesn't actually give them a higher save? (so a shot at -1 would still allow a save, instead of ignoring the armour).

I'm not sure about the +3 strength for the Dragon lance- there isn't any fluff justification for that (no 'tips made from dragon teeth', or 'piercing with the power of a dragon's bite' etc). However, as the elves are meant to be magical maestros, you could 'enchant' their lances for a certain cost (+2 or something) to give them the additional strength bonus.

I like the concept of the swordmasters getting some form of magical imbument due to them protecting the mages, but not sure about it being OFFENSIVE, like the missile.

I would agree with their swords counting as magic weapons (not increasing the save mod, but counting as magical), this should be standard as I am sure the mages of the white tower have enchanted their blades.
I wouldn't mind if they could take a magic amulet of protection or sumsuch, for +2pts each making their armour save a ward save.

Dn't the Phoenix Guard also cause Fear as well, seeing as how they don't speak?

The outnumbering thing I am unsure of, as it can be very powerful. It would not be a problem if the army was small, emphasising the point, but elven armies can be fairly large, as can their units. This would mean that the sole advantage of horde armies against skilled opponents (outnumbering) would be almost impossible to achieve, and no one could out number them.

A unit of 20 spearmen would only be outnumbered by a unit of 41 orcs, and the points difference isn't all that great (8-10 pts for an elf, 7 for an orc).


hellebore

Emmo-X
13-01-2006, 11:48
hellebore has said everything i would like to say that i would change exept i would suggest instead of the outnumber thingy HE get +1 for rank bonus if they have it. The swordmasters spells are no good the first one is crap because there not mages and shouldn't be able to cast magic misils the second one is way to strong (maybe 5+ or 6+ ward) and the third one would never be used anyone would take the 4+ save,
The ithilmar chain was an exelent suggestion.

You've done the rest of the list great its what the HE list should be. I dont know why they took away fire in 2 ranks from the archers its a good thing you put it back in. I love the white lions being skirmishes fits there background perfectly
I like the dragon lances makes the very scary on the charge.

shadowprince
18-01-2006, 04:28
thank you. The reasoning behing the dragon princes +3 strength was they where high nobility and would have supier weopons and it would make them different from silverhelms. Will rework the swordmaster magic,ment for the save to be +5 not +4 woops. really like the idea of the chain and will switch to that. pheonix guard lost fear becuase it made them to expensive and never used. any ideas for the magic of the swordmasters would be nice. Also i don't like the idea for the +1rank bonus becuas eit is far to costly to put low armor troops in giant blocks of at least 300pts a block ot be effectivee. So another idea here wou;d be appreciated, as horde armie only loose one combat rez from the outnumbered one.

shadowprince
29-01-2006, 02:28
/bump anyone?

Tiberius Frost
29-01-2006, 13:45
Have you playtested any of this? What are your justifications for points values?

The last few games that I [;ayed with my High Elves I used the Spearmen/archers/silver helm rules out of ravening hordes. I was pretty happy with that. So was my brother, who I was playing against. We had some good games.

Again, I'll just complain that most of the changes/proposals I see suggested on here don't have any justification from the background.

Crux
30-01-2006, 17:58
Silver Helms can't have additional Hand Weapons; or, well, they can, but they won't get any bonus for it.

What can I say, I'm a nitpicker ;)

shadowprince
31-01-2006, 00:19
It is assuming they get the one extra attack, as a special rule. Fluff explanation is they are nobility and more highly trained in combat.

EvC
31-01-2006, 01:42
Nah, that doesn't fit for them and is contrary to the rules.

Did the first post in this thread disappear? I'm sure I read a post about the chharcters last week. I like the notion of chariot units- though you may want to sort those stats out, chariots are a single entity these days after all. Plus I can't imagine cythes on a High Elf chariot (Don't forget they come armed with bows and spears, too).

Good stuff for the most part, I prefer Phoenix Guard to be immune to psychology rather than them causing fear. Maybe it could be a choice for the player, immune Or fear-causing...

shadowprince
31-01-2006, 05:32
High elf chariots had it in fifth edition. Still working on the characters makeing them much more tactical in what they do for the army trying to balance them out. Will play test this list when done, would somone else volenteer to try playtesting it.

EvC
01-02-2006, 17:12
High Elf chariots were mental in 5th edition, reading an old battle report they said they're strength 7 on the charge!

shadowprince
01-02-2006, 18:13
as you notice I haven't given them strength seven just an easy useful upgrade.

Olith
01-02-2006, 18:58
High Elf chariots were mental in 5th edition, reading an old battle report they said they're strength 7 on the charge!

all chariots were str 7 in 5th

EvC
01-02-2006, 19:43
I bet all chariots had scything options too. I'm not criticising the rules choice here, just saying I don't personally think scythed wheels fit in with High Elves here. However I would not be forced to take them, so I wouldn't complain were they to regain the choice ;)

Ghal Maraz
03-02-2006, 18:40
What can I say? I really, really hope High Elves will NOT get the fire in two ranks special rule, when the army book will be revisited... It was an invention of Tuomas Pirinen for the 5th edition, a time when all armies were made of several layers of uber-powerful rule (Bretonnia, Lizardmen, Chaos... brrr).
It has nothing to do with fluff: it's ballistic shooting and a) all archers get it or b) no one. I'm not saying that archers are rightly-priced as it stands now, but that's a problem of almost all 6th edition bowmen. Bows usually cost 5 points, while elven bows cost 6. That's really, really too much. It's a problem I hope will get solved with 7th edition, but still I don't think that high elves should get a special rule on top of a general rule amendment/price tweaking. Just a correct price for BS 4 + longbow.
IHMO, obviously.

shadowprince
04-02-2006, 08:10
ok then they drop to 9points. But as the other two elfs have special rules I see it as appropiate, after all any elf is considered a master archer by human standards.

Ghal Maraz
04-02-2006, 14:07
ok then they drop to 9points. But as the other two elfs have special rules I see it as appropiate, after all any elf is considered a master archer by human standards.

And BS 4 should show it...:evilgrin:
But I see your point, only, I don't deem necessary a special rule. Different points of view, I know.
Fact is, Wood Elves army rely a lot on bowmanship and maneuvering. They have limited punch, very few number, almost no armour, focused magic...
High Elves should instead have good, armoured cavalry, excellent ranked units, wonderful magic on top of bolt throwers, chariots, good archers, flyers and fast cavalry.
Now, I know that the present high elf list is a mess, but notice that I said "should"!;)
So, for me, in a good Asur list, archers don't need anything more than a right price, because they are a part of an already excellent mechanism.

Dark Elves, on the other hand, what special rule have? Apart from a peculiar weapon, I mean. A peculiar weapon with a short range and which, while granting more shots, give penalties to hitting.

shadowprince
05-02-2006, 09:20
yes but ends up increasing shot, especially when shade are actually used well. 20 shots hitting on fours isn't fun, the wood elf oe is also close range, may haps we could settle ona particular range, maby anythning long ranged, as it shows the fact they are shooting in vollies.

Plus I don't lie the idea of cheaper elfs, personally would like them individually better even if they cost more. After all they re suppose ot be a small elite army.

sulla
06-02-2006, 04:47
yes but ends up increasing shot, especially when shade are actually used well. 20 shots hitting on fours isn't fun, the wood elf oe is also close range, may haps we could settle ona particular range, maby anythning long ranged, as it shows the fact they are shooting in vollies.


But shades are irrelevant to an argument on the merits of elven archers. Shades are both scouts and skirmishers. A better comparison would be DE warriors who are ranked core. With those short ranged rxbs, they are generally hitting on 5's or 6's (long range, multiple shot and possibly moving)... so in most battlefield situations are already worse than elven longbows. By improving the core troops of one side, you create an arms race scenario where the other side must also gain to keep up... Remeber, these two armies should be balanced with one another.

shadowprince
06-02-2006, 06:05
ok then how about minus one for shooting in two rans only usable at long range.

Emmo-X
06-02-2006, 06:49
NO... dont give in, the high elves need fire in 2 ranks dont take it away.

Ghal Maraz
06-02-2006, 10:57
NO... dont give in, the high elves need fire in 2 ranks dont take it away.

But why, I ask you...
Perhaps you think that they need it, and perhaps they will get it, but there is no particular reason they should get it, apart from the 5th edition citizen levy rule, which, I still think, was an unnecessary rule in a too powerful army...

shadowprince
06-02-2006, 17:51
NO... dont give in, the high elves need fire in 2 ranks dont take it away.

I am not giving in but comprimising, they make a good point that while the other elfs have special abilities they are at limited ranges.

sulla
08-02-2006, 04:14
ok then how about minus one for shooting in two rans only usable at long range.


It is a very good way of representing volley fire, but why could only HE do it then? Surely WE, humans and even goblins should be able to do that... Better to just reprice archers IMO (because the real problem is that all archery is overpriced in fantasy compared to, say, magic missiles and artillery).

shadowprince
08-02-2006, 04:51
yes I agree on th eover priced. I am saying that Elf archers can do it better than human becuase they are better trained and skilled. Wood elf woudn't becuase they are ambush and run, thats why their strength on it is higher instead. A volley takes a moment or two to set.

Also high elfs use long bows.

also each model does not represent one soildier in real life, so metaphorically high elfs can get more shots off than humans.

And finally humans should be generic.

Gotreksbrother
08-02-2006, 12:03
You should also remember that High Elven archers are supposed to be young elves not ready to join the ranks of spearmen yet...as so, you could make them WS 3 and make them cost 8 points instead...and the two ranks should be implemented for all archers in all armies, but only at long range and if the unit didnt move (but at normal to hit).

cheers

ganymed
08-02-2006, 15:18
You should also remember that High Elven archers are supposed to be young elves not ready to join the ranks of spearmen yet...as so, you could make them WS 3 and make them cost 8 points instead...and the two ranks should be implemented for all archers in all armies, but only at long range and if the unit didnt move (but at normal to hit).

cheers

I totally agree with all archers in all armies firing with an additional rank if the unit didn´t move (better than a fixed 2 ranks)

a long overdue fix for the shortbow , bow and longbow wielding troops out there ...

I would strongly vote against a different "core set " (so no WS 3 young elves) - better to keep the points higher (include light armour for free) - a similar concept seen in the dwarf army book (heavy armour standard) to create a fluffier image of an army - i really like this

shadowprince
08-02-2006, 20:19
You should also remember that High Elven archers are supposed to be young elves not ready to join the ranks of spearmen yet...as so, you could make them WS 3 and make them cost 8 points instead...and the two ranks should be implemented for all archers in all armies, but only at long range and if the unit didnt move (but at normal to hit).

cheers

Young welfs is a relative term ,a young elf is normally at least between 100-200 years old.

When you live a thousands years thats a young elf.

Young elfs are extremly old in human terms. The average human lifeexpextancy for warhammer is probably about 60 years old. Son a young elf is extremly old by human terms and has had a good forty years more of practice.

Thus do to a lot more training do to their age, elfs would be more disciplined to allow for fireing in two ranks.