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danny7865
15-08-2009, 22:51
Hi I was just wondering if anyone in the community does it and if people mind playing against people who do it. A friend of mine got beat in a friendly tournament by someone who changed their list from game to game to win and then began to celebrate their victory as if they were napoleon reborn.....

I wouldn't enjoy the game and my friend didn't so i was wondering if anyone actually enjoys games like these ??

I changed my list from usual to counter what he does and then he called me a cheat lol..... So I am against list tailoring is anyone in favour of it ?

Sarah S
15-08-2009, 22:55
What the hell kind of tournament is that? The player with the most money wins tournament?

tw1386
15-08-2009, 23:01
Yeah, and there is nothing wrong with it. Most tournaments don't allow you to change your list from game to game anyways.

I mean if you know you are going to be fighting dwarves, why take Dispel scrolls and big beasties? Fighting nurgle armies you want to be sure to have flaming attacks, and etc for each army.

It's really not cheating, just going to a battle prepared. Aka, know your enemy.

stonetroll
15-08-2009, 23:06
It's really not cheating, just going to a battle prepared. Aka, know your enemy.

Except that some armies have such overpowered combos against others (Orcbane shield on a flying Paladin for Brets against O&G) that the opposing army doesnt even stand a chance anymore.

I think that tailoring can be done in friendly games where both players can restrict themselves and not totally take the maximum possible counter, but it doesnt show any kind of skill imo.

In tournament play any tailoring should lead to a disqualification imo (in fact, any kind of list alteration!)

selone
15-08-2009, 23:06
I'm fine with it to a limited extent, it amazes me you could do it in a tournament though.

EDIT
Doesn't orcbane simply not work on orcs anymore as animosity changed in relation to that item?

Brother J
15-08-2009, 23:10
What the hell kind of tournament is that? The player with the most money wins tournament?

LOL!


Being that I play Warriors of Chaos the only real tailoring I can do is to find a way to keep my numbers up while dealing with heavy ranged armies. Not too many armies are going to beat WoC in close combat, so that's not the largest concern.

Do I feel list tailoring is wrong? Not at all. Do I think it should be done in tournaments in between matches? Absolutely not. It doesn't really show your skill as a general when you're able to do that.

danny7865
15-08-2009, 23:13
it wasn't a formal tournament. It was in a club for a bit of fun. There is/was no prizes as such in the end, just claiming to be the best. NO one else changed their list which was probably the most irritating thing.
As for list tailoring it was total not slight as in Smeone decided to use a teclis gun line so this guy made an army which consisted of bolt throwers a unit of spearmen with the lore masters cloak (2+ ward save v spells) and a 15 strong unit of cavalry with the bsb having banner of the world dragon (completely immune to magic) As well as a lord on a star dragon with the null stone.
That made me mad as it meant that the teclis player never stood a chance before the game started and the gloating was ridiculous.

Brother J
15-08-2009, 23:24
15 strong cavalry? This guy think he's the English throwing down with the Scottish Braveheart style?

I'd have called him out on the list tailoring, or at least brought it to the attention of the Club Runners after I saw him change it the first time. Sure, no one likes to lose, but without losses you're never going to know what works and what doesn't.

I wouldn't feel bad at all about any losses to a player like this. You brought an all comers list, he brought a "I know your list and you're about to lose unless you manage to..oh I don't know...kill everything?" list to every fight.

weasley!
15-08-2009, 23:26
I really not in favour of this. IMO all lists should be made before you know the game will even happen. If you made maybe 5 lists for your army to fight against different set-ups then that would be acceptable, because you couldn't counter horrifically.

That annoys me too when people gloat after their games. I know a guy who only plays kids and then after he brags about his tactics. I hate that guy sooo much.

danny7865
15-08-2009, 23:34
Tbh i leave him to it. He's the type of player who takes the game far too seriously and having fun is secondary to winning.
It's upsetting for people who put a lot of effort and a story line behind their army , but I think object of the game is to have fun and the aim is to win.If your both not having fun winning is irrelevant and that is why i find list tailoring as a negative thing.Obvioulsy there are items which can be used v certain enemies and its quite acceptable fluff wise , but I feel there is a difference between knowing your enemy and taking an army which ihs built for beating onje specific list

Sarah S
16-08-2009, 00:27
LOL!


Being that I play Warriors of Chaos the only real tailoring I can do is to find a way to keep my numbers up while dealing with heavy ranged armies. Not too many armies are going to beat WoC in close combat, so that's not the largest concern.

Do I feel list tailoring is wrong? Not at all. Do I think it should be done in tournaments in between matches? Absolutely not. It doesn't really show your skill as a general when you're able to do that.

And what if I bring my WoC, my Daemons, my Tomb Kings, my Ogres (although I don't know why I would bring them to anything), my Vampires and my Lizardmen, and pick and choose who I wanted to use each game?

Should I win this tournament just because I have so many more models and armies to choose from? I would surely be at a huge advantage compared to someone who has only enough models scratched together to do a single 2000 point list.

Crazy Harborc
16-08-2009, 01:19
IF, that is if.....it's legal according to the tournament's rules to do it, then it is okay to do so. I see nothing wrong with tailoring an army. I do not agree that tailoring by switching armies at a tournie is well....sportsmanship friendly.

My longtime regular opponents and I have been tailoring for many years now. That was done at the local company store as well. I do not object. IMHO, before the battle, before the day of the battle, is the time to mention not wanting an opponent to tailor their army for using against you.

No flame intended....but....disallowing tailoring by an opponent ...NOT at a tournie....is alot like telling an opponent what they are allowed to do with their army.;) Just my gut reaction.;)

Brother J
16-08-2009, 01:41
IF, that is if.....it's legal according to the tournament's rules to do it, then it is okay to do so. I see nothing wrong with tailoring an army. I do not agree that tailoring by switching armies at a tournie is well....sportsmanship friendly.

My longtime regular opponents and I have been tailoring for many years now. That was done at the local company store as well. I do not object. IMHO, before the battle, before the day of the battle, is the time to mention not wanting an opponent to tailor their army for using against you.

No flame intended....but....disallowing tailoring by an opponent ...NOT at a tournie....is alot like telling an opponent what they are allowed to do with their army.;) Just my gut reaction.;)

Oh, I agree.

I think the real issue here isn't the tailoring at all, as we all can agree that tailoring in friendly battles isn't a problem.

I feel the changing your list every battle in order to crush each and every opponent during a tournament is the bigger issue here.

505
16-08-2009, 04:13
if both sides agree to do it it fine. it does allow a few items that are normally not taken to see the light of day.

but if one side does and and not the other is considered not cool.

and definitely not in tourneys.

just not in the store before a battle as its a waste of valuable game time

Shiodome
16-08-2009, 04:23
The distinction needs to be made between tailoring your list for a race, and tailoring your list for a specific list.

I don't have any particular issues with a player who knows he'll face high elves, writing a list that's strong against high elves. though i'd say it's only sporting to agree to 'tailoring' beforehand... whether being sporting is important to you is for the individual to decide. I play most games with all comers lists, but sometimes i agree with my opponent to both bring tailored lists. often i arrive for a challenge and find my opponent has brought an 'anti O&G' list without any prior arrangement, but as long as it's not utterly rediculous that doesn't really bother me either. O&G are a constant raiding presence, any defending general worth his salt would know what to bring to drive the green horde out. :D

I would have an issue with someone knowing what I'm going to bring in my list, and specifically choosing his list to counter it (i.e the anti-teclis example above). that just destroys any element of 'gaming' and is just a sign you're an *******.

Lord Dan
16-08-2009, 06:03
In tournaments a player should never have the option to change his/her list from game to game. All that proves is that you have a firm understanding of what units are strong against others, which is quite possibly one of the easiest concepts to grasp.

Condottiere
16-08-2009, 06:57
Actually, I think a sideboard should be allowed of around 20-25% of the points.

Brother J
16-08-2009, 07:00
And what if I bring my WoC, my Daemons, my Tomb Kings, my Ogres (although I don't know why I would bring them to anything), my Vampires and my Lizardmen, and pick and choose who I wanted to use each game?

Should I win this tournament just because I have so many more models and armies to choose from? I would surely be at a huge advantage compared to someone who has only enough models scratched together to do a single 2000 point list.

I'm broke and can barely scrap together the list I've got now. Go for it. If we were in the same tournament and it allowed it I'd have no qualms with you doing so. Would I lose a bunch of matches if everyone did so? Probably. Would I enjoy the tournament? Probably not as much as I could if everyone ran the same list throughout, but hey, at least I'd get experience with a ton of different lists!

I'm absolutely on your side when it comes to this debate though and see where you're coming from.

TheSanityAssassin
16-08-2009, 07:08
Man. I feel the urge to use a creative curse word I'm sure would be deleted in relation to that guy. The Teclis list, while unpleasant, stood NO chance against that list, barring something ridiculous happening. The worst part is that he took a Dragon Lord build that is basically useless against anything but magic. That's not even tailoring, that's just being a jerk.

WarmbloodedLizard
16-08-2009, 10:20
List tailoring in friendly games is perfectly ok, in my opinion. Allcomers lists are usually still "tailored lists" (tailored to the meta-game), for example anti-Daemon/VC/DE lists, and not "real" allcomers lists. Tournaments, however, shouldn't ever allow chaning lists inbetween games.

Skywave
16-08-2009, 17:11
The distinction needs to be made between tailoring your list for a race, and tailoring your list for a specific list.

I don't have any particular issues with a player who knows he'll face high elves, writing a list that's strong against high elves. though i'd say it's only sporting to agree to 'tailoring' beforehand... whether being sporting is important to you is for the individual to decide. I play most games with all comers lists, but sometimes i agree with my opponent to both bring tailored lists. often I arrive for a challenge and find my opponent has brought an 'anti O&G' list without any prior arrangement, but as long as it's not utterly rediculous that doesn't really bother me either. O&G are a constant raiding presence, any defending general worth his salt would know what to bring to drive the green horde out. :D

I would have an issue with someone knowing what I'm going to bring in my list, and specifically choosing his list to counter it (i.e the anti-teclis example above). that just destroys any element of 'gaming' and is just a sign you're an *******.

That's my view too. As long as it's race tailoring, it's fine for me. What about item that work againt specific race if people don't allow or like tailoring ? From the top of my head, there's a Bretonnian shield that works against Orcs, and an Empire helm that cause fear to Skaven. You need to tailor to actually use them, no?

As long as it's this kind of tailoring, I'm fine with it. But if you know your opponent list and tailor to counter it directly, that suck, and will probbly result in a boring game.

Condottiere
16-08-2009, 18:00
One way to get around list tailoring, in friendly matches, is to create three different ones. What may be optimal against one list, doesn't necessarily have to be so against another.

Kerill
16-08-2009, 20:38
My opponent list tailoring doesn't bother me. Most of my opponents will stock up on magic defence against me because I always take a magic heavy list (although not maxed) whatever army I play. Them stocking up on magic defence neuters my magic phase to a reasonable level and ensure the game is won through other phases. At the same time my lists tend to be quite hard and are meant to be all-comers lists. Tailored lists are a fun challenge to play against. If I feel I have no hope then I'll twiddle my list a bit and it keeps things from becoming stale. My mages generally serve more than one function anyway and aren't in the list solely for magic. They almost never get their points back in magic kills, but make up the difference in magic defence and other functions.

wingedserpant
16-08-2009, 21:31
I dislike list tailoring completely. Even in pre-organised friendly games.

Two take all comers lists playing together is alot more fun than two lists designed to kill each other playing each other.

I never tailor my lists and if that means my dispell scrolls will be more use being thrown at the dwarfs then so be it.

WhiteKnight
16-08-2009, 21:49
List tailoring is stupid and I strongly frown upon it. If I tailored a list for every persons list at my LGS, No one would play me.

danny7865
16-08-2009, 22:03
I think the 3 army ideas is a great idea, but my friend only took teclis so he could play a 2000 point army( he has just started to plays dwarves so i leant him models i werent using) . And no one else has changed their list to win.
I think that building a strong list is one thing but it is more necessary to play the game and have both players enjoy a challenging match rather than some smug git with more money than sense able to take every advantage of the rules , specially against new players.

Lordsaradain
16-08-2009, 22:52
If you play in a tournament everyone should use the same list throughout the whole tournament. When you play random pickup games both players usually has a list prepared. On the other hand, when playing a friend (just one game/one occasion) there is no reason not to prepare yourself from what you expect him to field. He will proably do the same thing so there should be no hard feelings.

The_O
17-08-2009, 03:13
My friends and I always tailor against each other. I play high elves and i see grom a lot.

HereticLosMorte
17-08-2009, 20:35
like others have stated, generic tailoring for a race is acceptable. specific model/unit tailoring is much more sleezy, especially if you know which units/models the opponent is specifically fielding.

in a 1-off battle, not such a big deal, but during a tournie where you can see all but your first opponent's armies before playing against them (unless you've seen lists before the 1st game, now you can go against EVERY army.)? that's classed as cheating and being a WAAC douche.

how is it fair to be able to upperhand every player there and take the prize/title when they used the same list every game and you wilely changed yours to leave them vulnerable to stuff they aren't strong against?

this player should have been disqualified.

my cousin plays dwarfs, so i don't take dispel scrolls against him, or i might take more fast units. i don't go for unit specific vulnerabilities that he fields, as it makes the game less fun for both of us. i'd rather it be a battle of intellects and strategy/planning, than of power-induced you-can't-hurt-me's.

pointyteeth
18-08-2009, 00:16
In tournaments there should be no list tailoring, otherwise the winner will likely be the dude with the most money.
In club play/club challenge like the OP was describing, it should be decided beforehand whether lists can be changed.
I've never played a pickup game at my LGS, so I can't comment as I'm not sure how they work.
In friendly games between mates (which is what I usually play) we list tailor all the time (unless playtesting for a tournament). We don't say "hey wanna play my teclis gunline?" "Ok, one sec...*scribble-scribble* theres my list, I win". Its more along the lines of "Wanna play against my dwarfs or my daemons?" "Uhhhhhh....sure, dwarfs please" I may have a list designed to fight dwarfs, but I have no idea what kind of army I'll be facing, and the same goes for him.

szlachcic
18-08-2009, 03:55
I guess if you have an agreement beforehand then it is fine, but I personally hate tailored lists. To me it is more fun to make an "all comers" list, but to each their own. I guess a plus to tailoring lists is that you would be more likely to use units/items that you may not use in a balanced list.

I would not play in a tournament that allowed tailoring as it defeats the purpose. However tailoring does have its place in campaigns and narrative games.

theDarkGeneral
18-08-2009, 03:56
Well, since I play in both a couple of Leagues and the Tournament scene, I have some input...


Almost 15 years I've been chuckin' dice with GW stuff! Over the years, there's been a lot of changes, both good and bad, but usually changes for the better.


Originally, before I was in the Tournament Scene, I played "build-a-hammer". That's what you're describing in this post, tooling or tailoring a list to play against a specific Army/opponent. Now back then, everyone in the area did it, and it was the "in thing". We all did our best to design lists to crush one another, and we all had a ton of fun doing so!

Over the years this however got boring, and some of the more unsavory players starting showing up more and more, where the win and the win only was what they were looking for. No camraderie, not for fun of both players, not for modeling or themed battles, etc...just to win and rub your face in it, even if they had to cheat to do so...I still won almost all my games, but it really began to drag...

After about 16,000pts+ of my Fantasy models were stolen by some "friends" and sold off via consignment cases, and the change over to 6th Edition and with all the jerks playing, I stopped chuckin' dice for about 6 months and almost called it quits...

Then a good friend convinced me to go to a Tournament (my first one) with a bunch of buddies, and I did very well for myself! I had a ton of fun, and found a new part of the Hobby I was missing out on! It helped revitalize my gaming and my gaming experiences!

Now quite a few years have gone by, and I still prefer the Tournament scene over League play, or pick up games at local shops/GW stores. I feel that my personal fave part of the hobby is creating a list that can take on all comers in the wild and varied world of Tournaments, and force me to paint (some) of my models, and know the rules back and forth!

I still participate in the SoCal GW League (love it!), and now the Game Empire (Pasadena) League, and it's both based off of "build-a-hammer" lists. So I suppose Warhammer, 40K, etc. is like a journey that many of us go on, and some of us are just at different stops and points of the trip!

If you don't like playing against peeps that tool/tailor their list to defeat you, ya' have two simple and easy fixes to this; A) don't play 'em, or B) beat them at their own game!


Just my thoughts...

pointyteeth
18-08-2009, 05:26
Well said DarkGeneral

sulla
18-08-2009, 05:59
I like tailoring. It gives you a chance to bring the less optimal units in your army once in a while as opposed to the all-comers lists where you are unlikely to ever touch those units. Far more likely to just rely on the safe power combos.

It seems (at least on the surface) a poor idea for a tourney as it would be a lot of work to validate everything and make sure no-one's getting cheated points/itemwise.

I also wouldn't do it against a guy with only a limited collection of models in an army.. Or I would, but only inasmuch as I'd limit my choices to keep the game competitive.

Pathosis
18-08-2009, 06:54
If I'm going to the LGS, I will write up a list in advance and tweak it slightly.

The extent is, say, if I'm fighting undead, I won't take the mask that causes terror.

Then again, I like to think about my opponent's enjoyment of the game, too.

Not just winning.

Crazy Harborc
18-08-2009, 21:53
In a years time, I usually get in 2 games a week. (That doesn't work out about 6-7 weeks a year) NOT a tournie person, not I. MY games are all one offs.

We all do, we all play what we enjoy. What works for us and our usual, our regular opponents.