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Lord 0
16-08-2009, 00:58
I was playing a game the other day and came across an opponent who insisted that my Casket of Sorcery could only capture one spell at a time. The argument went back and forth for a bit, but it ended with us agreeing that there was some ambiguity in the rules (although we disagreed the extent of the ambiguity) and I didn't push particularly hard because the wizard that held it was dead anyway.

EDIT: I also don't think my opponent would have pushed so hard in the direction *he* was arguing if the wizard hadn't been dead at the time either. All of this happened at the end of the battle. /EDIT

How do people play it here? Would you consider your opponent cheating if they tried to store more than one spell at once?

To clarify: I am not trying to claim that it can steal more than one spell per turn, either from one wizard or multiple and there was no confusion with my opponent on *that* aspect. Just one spell from one wizard at the end of the wizard's movement phase. I *am* however trying to claim that I can store multiple spells captured over two, three, or more phases.

nosferatu1001
16-08-2009, 01:04
It can carry more than one spell: it places no limits on the number of times it can capture, so there isn't one.

Lord 0
16-08-2009, 01:23
Yes, but the argument my opponent uses is that it doesn't specifically say I *can* store multiple spells simultaneously either. Granted, it *implies* that by saying what to do if you *do* have multiple, but it would seem that this is insufficient evidence.

The 'no limits' could merely be allowing it to capture then release several times over the course of the game.

I must admit, I am leery of using the 'It doesn't say I *can't* in the rulebook' argument. I have seen some real horrors come from that.

Sarah S
16-08-2009, 01:29
It tells you when it steals spells.
It tells you when you release them.

So steal spells, and release them following the rules and you won't go wrong.

It's not that it doesn't tell you in the rulebook, but it does tell you what to do, and at no point does it place a restriction on how many spells it can store. What it doesn't tell you is that it can't steal one if it already has one.

It just steals and steals spells, and then they are removed when you cast them.

Follow the rules and you won't go wrong.

Lord of Skulls
16-08-2009, 07:30
Did you read the Caskets rules thoroughly?


The bearer can then cast the captured spell in any of his own following magic phases by releasing it from the casket just like from a bound item, whereupon the spell is removed from the game. Any number of spells may be captured by the casket, and the bearer can cast each one once, either over several magic phases or all at the same time if he prefers.

It clearly states that you can cast several captured spells in the same magic phase, which would be impossible if the casket could only hold a single spell at a time.

Lord 0
16-08-2009, 07:42
Yes, I did read that and that was one of my arguments for allowing it to store multiple spells. It was conceded that it does *imply* that multiple spells may be stored, but no-where does it actually say "you may store multiple spells" and in the text that talk about rules it talks only about spells in the singular.

snottlebocket
16-08-2009, 08:07
Yes, I did read that and that was one of my arguments for allowing it to store multiple spells. It was conceded that it does *imply* that multiple spells may be stored, but no-where does it actually say "you may store multiple spells" and in the text that talk about rules it talks only about spells in the singular.

It's a pretty strong implication. It spells out the rules for releasing multiple spells at once, that doesn't leave much room for any argument against capturing multiple spells.

Lord 0
16-08-2009, 08:46
It is indeed a strong implication, but sadly that is all it is - an implication and the small amount of room it leaves is just what I am having trouble with: it doesn't specifically say 'may capture multiple spells'.

I was hoping for something a bit more concrete, an overlooked interpretation perhaps or an unknown errata or something, but so it goes :).

He also argued that 35 points was a bit low for something that can potentially capture all of your wizards spells for the rest of the game.

Lord Zarkov
16-08-2009, 09:32
It says it may store spells and it dosen't say there is a limit on the number of spells it can store. Therefore the onus is on your opponent to find a ruling that it can only store one (which there isn't, because it can store multiple spells). The fact that it then talks about relasing multiple spells is then proof positive that it can store more than one.
Heck Invocation of Nehek's implication that it can be cast into combat officially qualifies as a direct permission according to the FAQ.

T10
16-08-2009, 09:57
I was playing a game the other day and came across an opponent who insisted that my Casket of Sorcery could only capture one spell at a time.

A while back I too was under the impression that it could hold only a single spell at the time, but reading (rather than just skimming) the item's description reveals no mention of this limitation.

I seem to recall there was a limit to the Casket's capacity. This was in the previous edition of the Empire army book perhaps?.

-T10

Gazak Blacktoof
16-08-2009, 10:16
the onus is on your opponent to find a ruling that it can only store one

Precisely. Unfortunately there's no way for either player to force the other to concede the point.

snottlebocket
16-08-2009, 10:29
It is indeed a strong implication, but sadly that is all it is - an implication and the small amount of room it leaves is just what I am having trouble with: it doesn't specifically say 'may capture multiple spells'.

I was hoping for something a bit more concrete, an overlooked interpretation perhaps or an unknown errata or something, but so it goes :).

He also argued that 35 points was a bit low for something that can potentially capture all of your wizards spells for the rest of the game.

If your opponent acts like this it's a perfect example of the kind of intentional stupidity that is ruining this game. Nobody acts this insane in real life but when victory in a game of toy soldiers is on the line they suddenly act like they're borderline mental.

When I said strong implication I was understating the fact. The description flatout tells you that you can release multiple spells and how to do it. By extension that means you are able to capture multiple spells.

nosferatu1001
16-08-2009, 10:48
What part of:


Any number of spells may be captured by the casket

Is only an implication? It specifically states you may capture more than one spell

Lord 0
16-08-2009, 10:49
When I said strong implication I was understating the fact. The description flatout tells you that you can release multiple spells and how to do it. By extension that means you are able to capture multiple spells.

Oh, I quite agree with you. But what he is insisting on is a flat out specific declaration and not just an extension or extrapolation. This part of the rules was my strongest argument in favour of multiple spells being allowed.

Sadly, it was insufficient. My argument of "Why would they include instructions on what to do with multiple spells if you could never collect multiple spells?" was met with "GW writes stupid rules". His logic was flawless and I couldn't fault it :(.

snottlebocket
16-08-2009, 11:18
Oh, I quite agree with you. But what he is insisting on is a flat out specific declaration and not just an extension or extrapolation. This part of the rules was my strongest argument in favour of multiple spells being allowed.

Sadly, it was insufficient. My argument of "Why would they include instructions on what to do with multiple spells if you could never collect multiple spells?" was met with "GW writes stupid rules". His logic was flawless and I couldn't fault it :(.

Then frankly he is simply an idiot. He can't expect a game to be written like a legal document when even the barest smidgeon of common sense would have sufficed.

Lord 0
16-08-2009, 11:19
What part of:

Any number of spells may be captured by the casketIs only an implication? It specifically states you may capture more than one spell
Aha - and there I think we have the problem solved. My travel army book that I was using does not include this sentence, but my original army book does. I will be sure to make the correction.

Something that seems to have been lost, so I will mention again - this argument took place *after* the game. I have not known the fellow in question long, but I strongly suspect that had this come up in the middle of the game we would have argued a bit, diced for it, and then sorted it out later. An argument of this size and quality in the middle of the game does not seem to be his character.

Edit: OK, it seems it was lost because I only wrote it in my mind and not in real life. Silly me.

T10
16-08-2009, 11:46
Specifically:

"Any number of spells may be captured by the casket, and the bearer may cast each one once, either over several magic phases or all at the same time if he prefers."

Presumably casting the captured spells are resolved one at a time for sake of convenience. :)

-T10

Signius
16-08-2009, 18:32
I've yet to come into contact with this item, but I have a question. Is the intention that a spell that is "captured" cannot be cast anymore by the wizard it is captured from? I don't own the empire book, but I have looked at a friends, the exact wording escapes me though.

Lord Zarkov
16-08-2009, 18:47
Yes it is, the spell is gone.

T10
16-08-2009, 22:08
Indeed. Once captured the spell is lost to the wizard, once cast it is removed from the game. Both these conditions are specified. There is no hint that the spell is returned to the wizard.

-T10

Lord 0
17-08-2009, 12:45
Goodness. That is significantly harsher than I thought - I assumed that the spell was returned to the caster once it was released. However, upon going back over the wording, you are right. It doesn't even imply that the wizard gets it back. It specifically says 'captured and removed from the wizard' and then says nothing at all about giving it back when it is released. I have always played that it went back to the wizard. That being said, I have never actually stolen a spell with it either so that doesn't really mean much.