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View Full Version : Gold, Glory, God - 2500 pt



chaos0xomega
16-08-2009, 04:42
So, I want to try and make an Empire Army themed around a naval force or expeditionary/"conquistador" force sent to the New World(to tie them in with my Sea Ogre army). I was thinking of basing them around Nordland or possibly Marienburg, but I suppose I could just as easily make them Estalian.

Anyway, here is my proposed army list:

Lords and Heroes = 537

Core = 1084

2x 20 Spearmen = 384
w/ Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment: 2x 5 Crossbowmen
2x 20 Swordsmen = 490
w/ Musician, Standard Bearer, Duelist
Detachment: 2x 10 Halberdiers
2x 10 Handgunners = 210
w/ Marksman w/ Hochland Long Rifle

Special = 659

1x 20 Greatswords = 330
w/ Musician, Standard Bearer, Counts Champion
Detachment: 2x 10 Free Company
1x 5 Outriders = 129
w/ Musician, Outrider Champion
2x Great Cannon = 200

Rare = 220

2x Helblaster Volley Gun =220

Fluff explanation is as follows: Great Cannon and Helblaster Volley Guns because it's a nautically based list. These represent cannon that would have been offloaded from the ships that they sailed in on.

Greatswords represent marines (as in US Marine Corps/Royal Marines style marines, not 40k SMurfs) as elite naval infantry, while the Detachments of Free Company represent Naval Infantry - sailors pressed into service as soldiers.

The Outriders are just that, Outriders. Cavalr scouts if you will, an advanced scout party which rides forward to get the lay of the land and position of the enemy.

Core choices don't really have much in the way of fluff explanation. It just kinda makes sense. They are the military expedition to the new world. As its an expeditionary situation no Knights are present, and I didn't feel archers really fit the theme all that well (primitive bow are for natives, advanced old world civilizations use crossbows and arquebus!).

Tactics are as follows:

Spearmen are deployed defensively in 2 ranks of 10. The two units are spaced/angled in order to provide free lanes of movement as necessary.

Crossbowmen detachments are placed in front of the spearmen, so that they can flee as a charge reaction without incurring any panic tests.

Handgunners, Great Cannon, and Helblaster Volley Guns are placed behind/in between spearmen units for max protection, but positioned to minimize blocked LOS by the spearmen.

Swordsmen and Greatswordsmen are used as assault troops w/ Halberdiers/Free Companymen used to Support/Countercharge.

Outriders are positioned on the flank, and act like typical hit & run/guerilla style troops. they use their speed to get in position early, engage at range, and then fall back once the enemy gets closer.

And that pretty much covers it...

...Although you might have noticed that I lack any Lords and Heroes wwhatsoever. I am a relative newb to fantasy, having only one game of fantasy under my belt with my ogres many moons ago. I'm unsure of where exactly to go with my Lords/Heroes (compounded by the fact that I only have about 500 points to spend on these models). I'd like the theme of Gold, Glory, and God to be present in my Lords and Heroes section.

I was thinking wizard with lore of metal(gold), kitted out general of the empire or captain of the empire w/ Imperial Banner(glory), and a warrior priest of Sigmar/Arch Lector(God), but I'm really not sure in what combination or what gear to kit them out with (although I demand Aldred's Casket of Sorcery be present in some form... my ONLY opponent atm plays a vampire-whoring VC army or a Skink Priest/Stegadon whoring Lizardmen army). I was thinking that maybe I had a little bit too much in the way of core choices, so recommendations on that would be good if it means additional Lords/Heroes and wargear.

Von Wibble
16-08-2009, 12:02
I think the list as is is good. The only change I would make is the detachments. I think a parent unit's detachments should be 1 shooty 1 combat, not 2 of 1 type. You want that flank charge, but don't need 2 flank charges. I would have 1 halberdier/free company unit and 1 unit of archers/ crossbows for each parent unit.
If you want to save points, drop 1 free company detachment for the greatswords, and change the Outriders to 5 Pistoliers with musician. That's about 80pts extra.

For characters, how about a mounted captain with the casket, on pegasus. A good general trouble shooter character, for a decently small budget.
Rod of power wizard pretty much essential if you are worried about enemy magic.
And finally a warrior priest with Icon of Magnus to lead the greatswords.
Those 3 are about 150 each. With the proposed reductions to the list above that leaves about 150 points. You can upgrade to an Arch Lector, or to a wizard lord, or to a general for any one of the 3 characters.
Alternatively, you could get an extra character - a bsb, priest or wizard (any could work) - only Ld 8 on the general if you do this.

Of course, if you want to have your cake and eat it, just drop 1 spearman unit and its detachments. That should leave you enough to get an arch lector general in addition to the 3 characters mentioned. You might just be able to get yourself a small unif of flagellants as well (as a core choice).

Jind_Singh
16-08-2009, 16:33
yah that would be good - you still have 3 solid blocks of infantry but backed with good characters - Empire really need their characters to keep the army functioning in todays gaming world.
I would also then increase the size of all core units to 25 - 20 unit size is horrible - after taking just 1 loss you suddenly lose a rank - and you need as much static combat res as possible.
As for the characters keep them all mounted just to get the better armour save

chaos0xomega
17-08-2009, 02:12
I think the list as is is good. The only change I would make is the detachments. I think a parent unit's detachments should be 1 shooty 1 combat, not 2 of 1 type. You want that flank charge, but don't need 2 flank charges. I would have 1 halberdier/free company unit and 1 unit of archers/ crossbows for each parent unit.

But 2 flank charges is awesome (I think?)! Also, crossbows/handguns are move-or-fire, and I don't really feel that archers fit the theme of the army (the America's were conquered by guns, germs, and steel, not bows and arrows...). So for thematic reasons I can't take archers, and for logic reasons (unless I am wrong move or fire still applies to stand and shoot reactions, correct?).


If you want to save points, drop 1 free company detachment for the greatswords, and change the Outriders to 5 Pistoliers with musician. That's about 80pts extra.


I might consider dropping 1 or both free company, but I prefer the Outriders over the Pistoliers. The Pistoliers seem less useful given their much shorter range. I would imagine only one or two turns of good use would be had before the enemy caught up to them, whereas the Outriders use their speed to move into a good position with wide range of fire, have their way, and when the enemy gets too close, fall back/reposition to another safe spot.

As for characters, coming from warhammer 40k, where you generally don't spend as many points on characters, it's hard for me to figure out the Lords and Heroes section of most books. How much is too much? It seems to me that spending 1/3 to 1/2 of your points on characters is not uncommon in Fantasy, and is in some cases required to be competitive, but I find it difficult to justify the points spent.

Jind_Singh
17-08-2009, 05:21
But 2 flank charges is awesomeno my son, what does a flank charge do? It negates your enemy rank bonus of +3...and you get +1 for flanking. But the more troops you have in combat the more troops you'll see dead in combat, so try to keep the flank charge to just 1 side. (I think?)! Also, crossbows/handguns are move-or-fireno problems there, you only need deploy them within 6" at the start of the game, after that they are free to stay were they are - so you get a great shooting detachment that if broken wont cause panic in other units/detachments, and I don't really feel that archers fit the theme of the army (the America's were conquered by guns, germs, and steel, not bows and arrows...). So for thematic reasons I can't take archersdepends on your viewpoint as every expedition would also take several huntsman with them skilled at tracking and gathering meat - bowmen were taken along as they also acted as scouts, which is perfect with the new empire hunters, and for logic reasons (unless I am wrong move or fire still applies to stand and shoot reactions, correct?).



I might consider dropping 1 or both free company, but I prefer the Outriders over the Pistoliers. The Pistoliers seem less useful given their much shorter rangesome would argue that pistoliers are some of the best fast cav units in warhammer! I am one of them, each troop packs a hellish number of shots, as it's pistols there are no penalties for moving and shooting, just the - 1 for multiple shots, upgrade a champion with a repeater pistol in there and watch units die! Because they can move and shot you can use them to run forwards, unload their pistols, and angle them in such a way that if the enemy trys to charge them he'll be pulled out of position. Then when he charges you flee, hopefully rally the next turn, and turn around and shoot them again! IF your really good at planning you can also counter-charge with other units in the enemys now-exposed flank.... I would imagine only one or two turns of good use would be had before the enemy caught up to them, whereas the Outriders use their speed to move into a good position with wide range of fire, have their way, and when the enemy gets too close, fall back/reposition to another safe spot.

As for characters, coming from warhammer 40k, where you generally don't spend as many points on characters, it's hard for me to figure out the Lords and Heroes section of most books. How much is too much? It seems to me that spending 1/3 to 1/2 of your points on characters is not uncommon in Fantasy, and is in some cases required to be competitive, but I find it difficult to justify the points spent.I would say 50% is too much, unless you play deamons were a greater deamon alone is like 50%!!! For a 2000pt game I would say no more than 7-850 pts as I prefer more troops over characters.


Characters are harder to work out than 40k - 100 times more harder infact! Each character you take has to fufill a specific role in your overall battleplan - ie your general...is he made to take out enemy characters in reckless charges, or is his job to stay alive as long as possible to lend his leadership out? Do you need warrior priests to help defend from magic attacks and bolster your close combat abilities?
Thats the only way you'll ever stay sane with characters as it's so easy to lose focus during your army list building!!!

chaos0xomega
17-08-2009, 19:38
Hmm... I think I'm starting to get the general idea... So whats the general consensus on the Imperial Banner? It seems pretty useful given that my main opponent is a Fear/Terror-whore. The re-roll for all units within 12" seems more useful than just one banner that effects only one unit.

Jind_Singh
18-08-2009, 05:46
it does look great on paper but ive never tried it out as its so expensive! Im hoping someone will post on this thread and take us both out of our state of bewilderment!

chaos0xomega
20-08-2009, 01:51
Looks like I'm going to have to grease the axles a little bit to get a response...

So I'm going to try something different, instead of leaving the Lord and Heroes section blank, I'm leaving the core section back, since empire core choices are pretty cheap and easy to come by, and apparently empire armies are more character dependent than others.

So here are 4 potential Lord and Hero Sections:

1.General, Captain BSB, Warrior Priest, Battle Wizard
2.General, Warrior Priest, 2x Battle Wizard
3.Arch Lector, 2x Battle Wizard, Captain BSB
4. Arch Lector, 2x Battle Wizard, Captain

1. = 880
General on Griffon w/ Aldreds Casket of Sorcery, Wyrmslayer Sword, Shroud of Magnus, full plate, shield = 395

Captain on Barded Warhorse w/ Imperial Banner, full plate armor = 197

Warrior Priest w/ Icon of Magnus, Sigil of Sigmar, heavy armour, 2-handed hammer = 138

Level 2 Battle Wizard w/ Rod of Power, Ring of Volans = 150

2. = 833

General on Griffon w/ Aldreds Casket of Sorcery, Wyrmslayer Sword, Shroud of Magnus, full plate, shield = 395

Warrior Priest w/ Icon of Magnus, Sigil of Sigmar, heavy armor, 2-handed hammer = 138

Level 2 Battle Wizard w/ Rod of Power, Ring of Volans = 150

Level 2 Battle Wizard w/ 2x Dispel Scroll = 150

3. = 734

Arch Lector w/ 2-handed hammer, Heavy Armor, Icon of Magnus, Shroud of Magnus, Armour of Meteoric Iron = 237

Captain on Barded Warhorse w/ Imperial Banner, full plate armor = 197

Level 2 Battle Wizard w/ Rod of Power, Ring of Volans = 150

Level 2 Battle Wizard w/ 2x Dispel Scroll = 150

4. = 697

Arch Lector w/ 2-handed hammer, Heavy Armor, Icon of Magnus, Shroud of Magnus, Armour of Meteoric Iron = 237

Captain on Imperial Pegasus w/ Aldreds Casket of Sorcery, Wyrmslayer Sword, fullplate armor, shield = 160

Level 2 Battle Wizard w/ Rod of Power, Ring of Volans = 150

Level 2 Battle Wizard w/ 2x Dispel Scroll = 150

Core = 726(1.), 773(2.), 872(3.), 909(4.)

Special = 674

1x 20 Greatswords = 345
w/ Musician, Standard Bearer, Counts Champion
Detachment: 1x 10 Free Company, 1x 5 Crossbowmen

1x 5 Outriders = 129
w/ Musician, Outrider Champion

2x Great Cannon = 200

Rare = 220

2x Helblaster Volley Gun =220

Obviously the Arch Lector/Warrior Priest would be joined to Greatswords unit, everything else pretty much runs solo. If you have better loadouts for the "command section" please feel free to post it.

Also, are Greatswords actually worth it? Looking at it they seem like a pretty pricey fragile unit. I could get 2x that number of halberdiers or spearmen, or almost that number of swordsmen for the same amount of points.

Jind_Singh
20-08-2009, 07:37
on arch lector you got him heavy armour and magic armour - save points as only the magic armour save is used (unless it states it is used in conjunction with normal armour in which case i chat from me bum!!).
I wouldnt take griffion - it means your lord is a unit that must advance and get into combat - and he's not that tough even with a griffion to back him up.
I also prefer keeping the general at the centre of my line leading the men with his ld9 stat - much better than basic ld7!!
I think arch lector, BSB, 2 wizzies (or 1 wizard & Warrior priest) combo is nice as it will allow you solid magic defence and offensive. Make sure though you take lots of bound items to keep the pressure up with magic phase, and try to see if you like von horstmans speculum - and the sword which makes him +1 to hit! Thats a nice dirty combo for taking out super hard heros

Von Wibble
20-08-2009, 12:13
But 2 flank charges is awesome (I think?)! Also, crossbows/handguns are move-or-fire, and I don't really feel that archers fit the theme of the army (the America's were conquered by guns, germs, and steel, not bows and arrows...). So for thematic reasons I can't take archers, and for logic reasons (unless I am wrong move or fire still applies to stand and shoot reactions, correct?).

2 flank charges don't give you anything more than 1 flank charge. The point of a flank charge is to remove enemy rank bonus. There is no boost in getting a second flank charge. In fact, you are often in a worse position since the enemy gets more attacks (any decent unit will kill more halberds/ free comp than he will lose).

Archers are fine thematically for reasons given by Jindh-Singh. More to the point, they will always get to shoot, unlioke your handguns/crossbows which need room to deploy - room you do not have with so many units.



I might consider dropping 1 or both free company, but I prefer the Outriders over the Pistoliers. The Pistoliers seem less useful given their much shorter range. I would imagine only one or two turns of good use would be had before the enemy caught up to them, whereas the Outriders use their speed to move into a good position with wide range of fire, have their way, and when the enemy gets too close, fall back/reposition to another safe spot.

Pistoliers can move and fire. This is a huge advantage over the outriders. Every turn the outriders move in any way (including rallying) is a turn in which they can't shoot. The idea with Pistoliers is to always have them in a position where if the enemy charges you flee, and are able to hit them with knights (preferably in the flank) next turn. They are almost as good in shooting, better in movement, better in combat, and cheaper than Outriders. Pistoliers are imo an essential component of any good empire army.

As for characters, coming from warhammer 40k, where you generally don't spend as many points on characters, it's hard for me to figure out the Lords and Heroes section of most books. How much is too much? It seems to me that spending 1/3 to 1/2 of your points on characters is not uncommon in Fantasy, and is in some cases required to be competitive, but I find it difficult to justify the points spent.

I think 1/2 of your points is excessive. It depends on the army. The suggestions I gave in my previous post came to from 600 to 700ish points - I don't think 1/4 of your force is an unreasonable estimate. Vampires and High elves tend to depend on their characters to fulfill key roles so spend more, whereas I often find Chaos minimise and spend their points on hitty chaos knights instead. My last game with high elves I had a lord on star dragon plus 2 mages - that came to less than 900 points and is about as expensive as it gets for most armies.

Greatswords - I think your question is a fair one. Against undead I would say they are no harder to kill than a swordsmen, and their extra attacking power is minimal since they strike last and WS 4 isn't really better than WS3 vs most undead. And that special slot can be taken up with a nice religious knightly order or unit of pistoliers.

Imperial banner although nice on paper is expensive on a relatively easy to kill model. If you keep your general close then your checks are on Ld 9 which is fairly reliable. As long as your decent units pass their checks you should be fine - always aim to outnumber him and then hitting on 6s is the only effect of fear (and you should aim to let CR not kills decide combat). I would prefer the Griffon standard on a BSB myself.

Looking at the character lists.

General on griffon is a nono. Very expensive, and doesn't achieve much in terms of kills because of the limited attacks. A Grand Master tends to be far better in the killing role even restricted to his horsie.

I prefer character list 4. I'd have a wizard's staff instead of that second dispel scroll, and a sword that is actually useful rather than wyrmslayer sword (sword of might or sword of justice recommended). Note you don't have heavy armour as the armour of meteoric iron replaces it.

Van Horstmans on a lector comes recommended twice in 2 posts now. But I personally think snice you already reroll to hit from hatred, a nastier combo is Shield of the Gorgon, reducing your enemy to just 1 attack. That combo is better when mounted for a decent armour save though.

Von Wibble
20-08-2009, 12:39
Edit - double post

chaos0xomega
20-08-2009, 17:10
on arch lector you got him heavy armour and magic armour - save points as only the magic armour save is used (unless it states it is used in conjunction with normal armour in which case i chat from me bum!!).


Oh woopsie, I'm normally pretty good about that kind of stuff, guess I didn't realize at the time.


I wouldnt take griffion - it means your lord is a unit that must advance and get into combat - and he's not that tough even with a griffion to back him up.


See I figured since he was carrying the casket of sorcery that he would be up front more often than not, and I figured the griffon would make him survivable enough to well... survive. Guess not, eh?


I also prefer keeping the general at the centre of my line leading the men with his ld9 stat - much better than basic ld7!!


Makes sense


I think arch lector, BSB, 2 wizzies (or 1 wizard & Warrior priest) combo is nice as it will allow you solid magic defence and offensive. Make sure though you take lots of bound items to keep the pressure up with magic phase, and try to see if you like von horstmans speculum - and the sword which makes him +1 to hit! Thats a nice dirty combo for taking out super hard heros

Von Horstmans Speculum seems interesting, but I wasn't sure how useful it would be.


prefer character list 4. I'd have a wizard's staff instead of that second dispel scroll, and a sword that is actually useful rather than wyrmslayer sword (sword of might or sword of justice recommended). Note you don't have heavy armour as the armour of meteoric iron replaces it.


Really? It seemed most appealing to me. Always wounds on a 4+ and ignores scaly skin, it's perfect against the stegadon horde.

And yeah, already realized about the heavy armour/meteoric iron.



Van Horstmans on a lector comes recommended twice in 2 posts now. But I personally think snice you already reroll to hit from hatred, a nastier combo is Shield of the Gorgon, reducing your enemy to just 1 attack. That combo is better when mounted for a decent armour save though.

Shield of the Gorgon only reduces by 1 attack. I'm not sure how worthwhile that is really, I mean if it had an effect vs. an entire unit, sign me up... but just one model (and can't be used vs. a mount and character simultaneously)....

So it's looking like its between options 3 and 4 (with a bit of fine tuning) which are really the same thing, the question is BSB or no BSB.

Jind_Singh
20-08-2009, 18:33
thing with any monstors is that they dont add anything to the armour save of the rider.
and when in combat the enemy picks who he wants to kill
and worst of all you can join units - so you'll never be able to hide the hero/lord (or should I say protect!) from ugly bad guys
The VHS (Von Horstman Speculum) is truly a dirty piece of kit - swapping stats with someone in a challange?
EVEN IF an arch lector/warrior priest doesnt have one, the fact is if you issue a challange with him most people decline just thinking you will pull out the VHS. Arm the priest with a decent magic weapon and you got an ugly character killer. Not to mention he has hatred for 1st round! The only reason I prefer the sword with +1 to hit is because hatred only works for 1 round, the +1 to hit is always useable!