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the_night_reaper
10-01-2006, 03:11
In 40k when the attacker's strength is double the victim's toughness he dies instantly with no matter how many wounds he has. Is the a rule other than killing blow like this in whfb?

NakedFisherman
10-01-2006, 03:37
No.







(Filler)

Drake Dun
10-01-2006, 06:24
One of the points on which the 40k rules make a lot more sense if you ask me. Killing Blow drives me insane.

It should read:

"If you roll a 6 to wound, it automatically kills the model, with no armor saves allowed and regardless of how many wounds it has, except that it only works on man sized targets which excludes every multi-wound model in the game other than characters, against whom you will never get a chance to use it anyway, and by the way a 6 to wound would already wound anything anyway, so all you actually get out of this is that it beats armor."

Drake

Festus
10-01-2006, 07:52
Hi

One of the points on which the 40k rules make a lot more sense if you ask me. Killing Blow drives me insane.

It should read:

"If you roll a 6 to wound, it automatically kills the model, with no armor saves allowed and regardless of how many wounds it has, except that it only works on man sized targets which excludes every multi-wound model in the game other than characters, against whom you will never get a chance to use it anyway, and by the way a 6 to wound would already wound anything anyway, so all you actually get out of this is that it beats armor."

There is hardly a more game-changing skill in WHFB than killing blow: Ever seen a tooled up Chaos Lord cower in fear against a unit or model with Killing blow?
The nice shiny 1+ Save and the high T and the many W account for nought on the simple roll of a 6. Even against 3 or 4 attacks, the chances are often too high to risk losing such a tank.

This is very strong, and not - as you want to make it seem - more or less useless.

KB is a tactical skill, and as most inWHFB it is not so much what it does but more of what it can do. A unit or model with KB (provided enough attacks are there) is a perfect *herder*, ie. keeps certain spaces free of enemies (like for example the HBVG).

Greetings
FEstus

T10
10-01-2006, 08:57
In 40k when the attacker's strength is double the victim's toughness he dies instantly with no matter how many wounds he has. Is the a rule other than killing blow like this in whfb?

Killing blow is hardly comparable with the Instant Death effect of high-strength hits in WH40k. After all, a S8 vs T4 requires a roll to wound of 2+. Killing Blow is fixed at 6 - the relative Strength and Toughness is irrelevant.

Sure, the end result is the same: a dead model. But you could more reliably achieve the same with a good S6 or more hit for d3 or more wounds.

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-01-2006, 10:07
As Festus says, Killing Blow rarely does anything, it's more the psychological effect it can have on your opponent. And while you might not kill many multi wound models with it, it's still perfect for killing knights and other heavily armoured targets.

Griefbringer
10-01-2006, 10:13
Chariots also have a sort of insta-kill rule on them - if wounded by anything with S 7+ they are automatically destroyed, regardless of the number of wounds.

That said, heavy things like great cannon (S10, d6 wounds) are good enough at taking out most targets without need for any further rules.

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-01-2006, 11:13
Yes, the main reason(IMO) 40k have an instant kill rule is that they removed all the "dx" wound weapons. You can get that effect in different ways in Warhammer, without needing the hardcap.

Strictly Commercial
11-01-2006, 07:18
It should read:

"If you roll a 6 to wound, it automatically kills the model, with no armor saves allowed and regardless of how many wounds it has, except that it only works on man sized targets which excludes every multi-wound model in the game other than characters, against whom you will never get a chance to use it anyway, and by the way a 6 to wound would already wound anything anyway, so all you actually get out of this is that it beats armor."

Drake
I tend to agree with this one as well. I play primarily hard armored forces, and my opponents don't sweat KB a bit. I think that's because they know that needing 6s to score a kill vs them needing 2s and 3s (Chaos Knights vs your average troop with KB being the example coming to mind) makes it statistically very unlikely they will heavily suffer because of it (and having seen it a number of times they come to know the outcome is still in their favor).

I think KB would be far more worth it if it simply ignored armor on a 6 - not getting an autokill regardless of base size. I think this would be generally balanced, and make KB a simple rule that could work against units vs which man sized troops need some extra punch (like dragon ogres or trolls). Experienced players with heavily armored lords know how to thwart KB pretty expertly.

As for the comparison to 40K, I think KB is closer to rending than instant death, and I agree that artillery with "dx" wounds is a closer equivalent.

megastar242
14-01-2006, 23:10
Although KB is man-sized targets. The Brets virtue of heroism (40pts) grants the model KB against large targets (non magical weapon). This overrides the normal limitation of KB only affecting man-sized targets.

Crux
15-01-2006, 02:47
Although KB is man-sized targets. The Brets virtue of heroism (40pts) grants the model KB against large targets (non magical weapon). This overrides the normal limitation of KB only affecting man-sized targets.
Ah, yes. But that brings up another things: Ogres are immune to Killing Blow. Why? Because, normal Killing Blow is ineffective against anything other than human-sized targets, and Virtue of Heroism only gives Killing Blow against Large Targets.

As far as I know, the only thing I know that can Killing Blow an Ogre is the Dark Elf Special Character Executioner Tullaris of Har Ganeth (he can use Killing Blow on everything except swarms).

NakedFisherman
15-01-2006, 03:17
Ah, yes. But that brings up another things: Ogres are immune to Killing Blow. Why? Because, normal Killing Blow is ineffective against anything other than human-sized targets, and Virtue of Heroism only gives Killing Blow against Large Targets.

As far as I know, the only thing I know that can Killing Blow an Ogre is the Dark Elf Special Character Executioner Tullaris of Har Ganeth (he can use Killing Blow on everything except swarms).

And Throt the Unclean.

m1s1n
15-01-2006, 03:36
I wouldn't mind seeing a re-working of KB to allow for larger sized models (not LARGE models, but Ogre-sized)--however, this is not to say that the rules are make KB useless. I find that KB changes the game in my favor more than not. Units like Wights, Tomb Guard, and Executioners become real character threats and the no armor save thing is a nice bonus--not the lone reason for Killing Blow mind you.

NakedFisherman
15-01-2006, 04:17
Killing Blow on Ogres should still be restricted to certain special cases. Allowing it to work on Ogre-sized models is just an unnecessary penalty to them.

Festus
15-01-2006, 08:18
Hi

I find that KB changes the game in my favor more than not. Units like Wights, Tomb Guard, and Executioners become real character threats and the no armor save thing is a nice bonus--not the lone reason for Killing Blow mind you.
Abd generally this is the perfect reason for using units with KB (or single characters!
Genuine Character-herder, the better the more expensive your opponent's characters get... :)

Greetings
Festus

2ndCompanyVeterans
15-01-2006, 11:14
I think it would be easier to say that killing blows works against the same size level or smaller, A blood thirster can KB all and for his points and that big fat axe he should! Ogres could do in Kroigores etc. Obviously cavalry KB against thing equal to their dismounted size. Use the base size as the guide convertors just need to make sure for tourneys all is legal.

Just an idea.

Strictly Commercial
16-01-2006, 11:31
I think that's a pretty interesting idea as well, but one that would fit nicely in the middle of the idea I prefer would be that KB works differently against different sized bases regardless of wh has it. For example, it hould have no effect against large targets (which have problems of their own enough already), swarms, and chariots; inflict a single wound with no save against minotaur sized models; and outright kill cavalry and man sized bases.

The reason I like this is because it really seems silly that a guy who could expertly lop the head off of an experienced and hardened Bretonian or Chaos Lord, whose blade slices with a blur and strikes fear in the heart of armored veterans, is no more effective against some ogre from the backwoods than an untrained conscript from Osterland would be.

Also, it would still leave things like Hand of Dust and Virtue of Heroism intact as a standout exception. They might have to monkey with the point value a bit but otherwise I think this works out well.

T10
16-01-2006, 12:14
Models with Killing Blow only cause fear in your opponent, not his models. :)

-T10

Yak
16-01-2006, 13:23
Also Tullaris, a dark elf special character, has a special rule saying that his killingblow works against any sized model (except I think swarms etc IIRC). That's quite powerful.

MarcoPollo
18-01-2006, 00:33
I think that killing blow technique on characters can be a little useless. Generally, your characters special techniques are going to be hidden from your opponent (unless your opponent is savy enough to deduce you have it: ie. Tomb King Blade of Eternities). Like T-10 said it causes fear in your opponents not in the models. So if you have units, you are generally obliged to inform opponents of their skills. This knowledge has an effect. Keeping it hidden leaves the effect soley in the hands of statistics and luck.

If you have the points left over and are facing some heavy armor, then it might be worth taking. But, I usually gloss over it as a character technique/weapon.

There are, however, exceptions to this. Like the bretionain vow, and the deystroyer of eternities.

Festus
18-01-2006, 07:03
Hi

I always try to include KB where possible, if I go against Human Chaos, Vampires, Brets and the like, to deal with the hard and well-armoured characters of my opponent.

Greetings
Festus