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View Full Version : HELP!!!! against deamons



Dr.Rockso
16-08-2009, 08:16
Ok so i have a friend who bout the battalion for the empire and we've played a few games...however he's a ******! when he played his army he made gunline/tank army, and the one time his cannon blew up he wanted to give up saying the game was over....Ok so now my VC step brother is gonna be playing my friend who is going to be proxying a deamons army and knowing him he is going to abuse the hell out of that army! So i would like to know general tips on how to beat them as a VC army, we dont know what he will be taking so we want to know if there are ways to tailor a list to rape deamons. We dont need to just beat him we need to RAPE his...so he will then learn how to play a god damn FUN game of warhammer.....The game will be a 2250 pt game

snottlebocket
16-08-2009, 08:39
edit: doh I totally misread, I thought you were taking demons against the gunline. If there's one thing I hate as a demon player it's static combat res and tarpits. Demons can't be resurrected and they're too expensive to die to combat resolution. Just tarpit everything in sight with static combat res, use vampires and battlestandards to raise the combat resolution even more, just watch them fall apart.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Your idea of teaching him to play a fun game of warhammer is becoming worse than him?

Anywho, if he's playing a gunline that means he'll have little static combat res and little combat striking power in exchange for lots of long range power. Go nurgle.

Plaguebearers with a herald will have a 5+ ward and 4+ regeneration on top of a toughness of 4. March them straight at him. Stick the herald on a palanquin of nurgle and it only takes 16 plaguebearers to have full ranks.

A great unclean one of nurgle with the trappings of nurgle, of the top of my head, has a 4+ armoursave, a 5+ ward and a 4+ regeneration. With his flail he can also seriously damage a steamtank. The best part about the guo is that with his toughness, 10 wounds and protection, he's nearly immune to most miscast results. It's expensive but you can make him a level 4 and roll 4 or 5 dice on his best spells to try and get those IR's. If you miscast... meh it won't bother him much most likely.

Magic in general can be a big help to you. I'd bring the standard of the sundering to screw with his magic while bringing a lot of your own. The spell that creates nurgling bases is especially good against gunlines. Use it against a low toughness unit of missile troops and you can often get some nurgling bases right behind his warmachines early in the game.

Add in multiple staves of nurgle for your characters and you're just downright mean.

Fiends of Slaanesh, 10 inch movement and a 20 inch march or charge means they can run up his flank and charge in on the second turn, once they're there they can start rolling up the sides of his battleline. He'll probably only get once chance to shoot at them. Tough proposition considering they have a 5+ ward and 3 wounds. (just one fiend is probably enough to do a number on warmachines and missile units)

Beasts of nurgle might be worth a try. Usually I find them too slow and I prefer fiends. But against gunlines anything that soaks up a lot of firepower could be interesting and again you don't need that much power in combat to kill a human gunline. One or two beasts is probably enough.

Top it of with some cheap furies to worry him. Considering they're just about the only things he can reliably kill, he might focus on them the first turn. If he doesn't... furies can take care of warmachines too.

Frankly, with my demons my great unclean one single handedly won battles. The demonic infantry doesn't do anything except tarpit. Fleshhounds make good flankers to decide those combats. But the real star has always been the great unclean one, wading through a firestorm of missilefire and magic while throwing out spells that gimped entire units.

mossel
16-08-2009, 08:40
make sure to have champions everywhere you can! nothing is as funny as a bloodthirster fighting a block of skellies, being challenged by the champion every time and only getting through the unit oh so slowly :D

I also am a strong supporter of black knights and grave guard (gotta love killing blowing flesh hounds!)

make sure to have some magic defence, but I think with all your characters being mages, that won't be much of a problem!

a nice unit of blood knights should also help winning the game (having a decent save against flamers and they are heavy hitters in close combat!)
+ daemons are ItP so can't flee: a little less trouble with frenzy!

Dr.Rockso
16-08-2009, 08:47
edit: doh I totally misread, I thought you were taking demons against the gunline. If there's one thing I hate as a demon player it's static combat res and tarpits. Demons can't be resurrected and they're too expensive to die to combat resolution. Just tarpit everything in sight with static combat res, use vampires and battlestandards to raise the combat resolution even more, just watch them fall apart.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Your idea of teaching him to play a fun game of warhammer is becoming worse than him?

Anywho, if he's playing a gunline that means he'll have little static combat res and little combat striking power in exchange for lots of long range power. Go nurgle.

Plaguebearers with a herald will have a 5+ ward and 4+ regeneration on top of a toughness of 4. March them straight at him. Stick the herald on a palanquin of nurgle and it only takes 16 plaguebearers to have full ranks.

A great unclean one of nurgle with the trappings of nurgle, of the top of my head, has a 4+ armoursave, a 5+ ward and a 4+ regeneration. With his flail he can also seriously damage a steamtank. The best part about the guo is that with his toughness, 10 wounds and protection, he's nearly immune to most miscast results. It's expensive but you can make him a level 4 and roll 4 or 5 dice on his best spells to try and get those IR's. If you miscast... meh it won't bother him much most likely.

Magic in general can be a big help to you. I'd bring the standard of the sundering to screw with his magic while bringing a lot of your own. The spell that creates nurgling bases is especially good against gunlines. Use it against a low toughness unit of missile troops and you can often get some nurgling bases right behind his warmachines early in the game.

Add in multiple staves of nurgle for your characters and you're just downright mean.

Fiends of Slaanesh, 10 inch movement and a 20 inch march or charge means they can run up his flank and charge in on the second turn, once they're there they can start rolling up the sides of his battleline. He'll probably only get once chance to shoot at them. Tough proposition considering they have a 5+ ward and 3 wounds. (just one fiend is probably enough to do a number on warmachines and missile units)

Beasts of nurgle might be worth a try. Usually I find them too slow and I prefer fiends. But against gunlines anything that soaks up a lot of firepower could be interesting and again you don't need that much power in combat to kill a human gunline. One or two beasts is probably enough.

Top it of with some cheap furies to worry him. Considering they're just about the only things he can reliably kill, he might focus on them the first turn. If he doesn't... furies can take care of warmachines too.

Frankly, with my demons my great unclean one single handedly won battles. The demonic infantry doesn't do anything except tarpit. Fleshhounds make good flankers to decide those combats. But the real star has always been the great unclean one, wading through a firestorm of missilefire and magic while throwing out spells that gimped entire units.




uhh my friend played his empire army but wants to switch to deamons because the way he plays is to "massacre everything without loosing a unit" and when he does loose a unit he gives up so were tired of it and we want to just rape his troops.....

nzdarkelf
16-08-2009, 09:09
If he is going to use proxy fig your step-brother may as well too. As well as killing blowing flesh hounds - which he is bound to have plenty, the black knights and grave guard will nullify plaguebearers regen as well. Your vampires and necro's should cope better against his magic than he will against yours. Expect a couple of units of Flamers (sounds like he is that kind of guy). Make sure you deal to them. Magic missiles and maybe a character on a flying mount.
Don't expect to achieve what you want though, that is giving him a taste of bad sportsmanship. You would be better to tell him that you don't enjoy playing against gunline armies all the time, and ask him to bring something else next time. If he doesnt want to I suggest you simply dont arrange to play him again, and decline his invitations - but explain why. If he's not getting games thats more likely to change the way he plays.

Fiat Nox
16-08-2009, 09:37
One of the major problems is that he knows my 2k list, as I used it last time against his gunline/steam tank and massacred. I'm pretty sure he even has a copy of it, so I am quite sure that his DoC list will be specifically tailored against mine. I don't like list tailoring, as I view it strategically boring, so I'm not specifically asking for a way to tailor a list. We are all generally new players and are good friends. The Player we're discussing has been a good friend for about 7 years, so it would a bit awkward to be overtly hostile or aggressive in terms of refusing to play.

The idea is to beat his army in such a way that he thinks DoC to be worse than his already purchased empire army. Doing so would lead, I think, to an overall better play experience for all in our gaming group.

Perhaps we're overreacting, but after looking at the DoC army book, the other players in our group can't figure out a way to handle most of his units, especially against his style of play.

SilverWarlock
16-08-2009, 14:52
somehow your problem seems to be with a player not his demons ...

For dealing with Demons you already have suggestions above.

For the player the way to deal with that is to refuse to play the cheesy lists. One fun exercise can be for both people to make a balanced list, then just before the deployment you roll a dice and on 4+ you swap armies. This makes the "optimal" list something hard to play with but good in the right hands so even if he spends a lot of time on a list it should still be something fun to play with/against.

nzdarkelf
16-08-2009, 23:36
I think most of the hooha about daemons is unwaranted. Verses Undead even more so.

Sure they have a nice 5+ ward save, but mostly that evens out. Iron breakers, knights, even the Grave Guard will still have an armour save of at least 5+ (after str reduction) against most things. It does give other protection, but if your attacks aren't of the 'no armour save' variety it won't matter to you.

The big strength of Daemons is fear, and Immune to Pyschology. Your undead have the same so its no disadvantage.

Yes some of the daemons are very nasty, especially Flesh Hounds and Flamers. That vampire that flies would be a nice way to deal with these, as he will out fight them, and their will be no static combat res to go against him, other than out numbering. He is on an infantry base, so he has 360 deg LoS, which may will allow him to go from combat to combat to combat, rather than find he has to spend a turn repositioning for another charge. Might I suggest a flock of fell bats or a bat swarm to sacrific against the flamers. Thereby buying yourself a bit of time, for the vampire to deal with one unit then deal with them.

In combat neither Bloodletters nor Plaguebearers are 'supermen'. They both only have one attack each. Bloodletters will reduce Grave Guards Arm Sv to a 5+ which is equal to their own ward save. Plaguebearers will reduce Skeletons (Light armour & shield) like wise. The key is to have a combat tooled character to oppose his infantry block, and concentrate on killing his Herald first. You should greatly out number him. And of course you can reinforce your boys with spells - he can't.

Once looked in combat neither of you are going anywhere till its done and dusted. I suggest putting your character in a corner to reduce his oppourtunity to attack him. If he can stay 'alive' while taking down a couple of daemons a turn static combat res will gradually win you the fight as long as you can keep reinforcing your unit. Think zombies maybe. Lots of them. As well as outnumbering him in regiment size, you should have alot more regiments to out manouver him with - they will just be slow. But once you have him locked into combat time will be your friend.

Also having been friends for 7 years, surely you could try suggesting you try playing different 'scenario' based games such as non gunline ones, or even a game where he has to attack your gunline to take an objective?

HellRaid
17-08-2009, 00:42
Here's a few tips for army composition:

- Do not field the Drakenhoff Banner. All Tzeencth daemons have flaming attacks which renders the banner useless.
- Black Knights with the Strigos Banner (a staple in my armies) are extremely useful, particularly against Heralds who they can Killing Blow. Naturally, avoid being charged at all costs though. Use your terrain-ignoring bonuses to your advantage.
- If he uses Horrors, take small units of Dire Wolves. You can get a nice first/second turn charge with them which can stop most of the Horror's magical abilities for at least a turn (and if you're lucky, you can snipe the weak Herald in the unit, if there is one). Multiple units of 5 or 6 (each charging in when the other is defeated) is not only cheap and useful, it's hilarious!
- The greatest solution to a greater daemon problem is a big unit of Core Zombies with command. 3 ranks + standard + outnumber (and a musician in case of a draw) means that you will likely win every round of combat against most greater daemons - and one unlucky instability test and your zombies have made quadruple their points value! Use Vanhels to get the Zombies into combat, and use every dice at your disposal to ensure it works.
- DO NOT FIELD WRAITHS.
- A Black Coach is very useful, particularly against Tzeentch units (as it will absorb their power dice and become Magic Resistance (3)). Avoid Khorne units though, as I think they can quite easily get Str 7 attacks.
- After all that's said and done, large blocks of infantry will suit you better than units of cavalry. Make them huge and grind down his lines with combat resolution. Remember your Battle Standard and a War Banner (even skeleton units can get it). Walking Death never hurts either :)