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Nuada
16-08-2009, 12:03
The high elves have a magic item called the Null Stone. It cancels all other magic items within 6".

If a HE character kills a vampire wearing the carstein ring in close combat, will the ring be cancelled?

The reason i ask is the carstein ring description says ...."the first time the wearer is slain roll a d6 at the end of the phase" You remove models before you work out the combat resolution



So is the answer;

a) The vampire is replaced by a R&F model, and moved to your dead pile? ..when the ring kicks in he is beyond the 6" range of the null stone. So the carstein ring works.

b) The vampire is still within 6" when he dies. The castein ring doesn't work.

T10
16-08-2009, 12:50
I think it is safe to assume that the powers of the ring would need to be active when the character was slain in order for it to have an effect.

-T10

Nuada
16-08-2009, 13:20
I think it is safe to assume that the powers of the ring would need to be active when the character was slain

The ring doesn't activate until the end of the combat phase.



Here is the order of play;

-HE kills the vampire lord
-Vampire removed from the board (or put behind the unit to resolve com res)
-Replace the vampire lord with a R&F trooper
-Work out combat resolution
-Finish all the other close combats
-The carstein ring activates (he's nowhere near the null stone)


I know it's a weird question, because there is no such thing as a dead pile. Technically the vampire is supposed to be on the floor, but he isn't.

Meh, it's a daft question. Think i'll rule he can't use the ring if that ever comes up :D just thinking aloud really

snottlebocket
16-08-2009, 13:37
The ring doesn't activate until the end of the combat phase.



Here is the order of play;

-HE kills the vampire lord
-Vampire removed from the board (or put behind the unit to resolve com res)
-Replace the vampire lord with a R&F trooper
-Work out combat resolution
-Finish all the other close combats
-The carstein ring activates (he's nowhere near the null stone)


I know it's a weird question, because there is no such thing as a dead pile. Technically the vampire is supposed to be on the floor, but he isn't.

Meh, it's a daft question. Think i'll rule he can't use the ring if that ever comes up :D just thinking aloud really

Don't be silly, the model get's removed for convenience. If someone pulls that I'll tell him to leave his dead where they drop and he can spend the rest of the day playing really carefully to avoid moving his corpses.

danny7865
16-08-2009, 20:41
well if we are being fluff technical the prince can walk up to an entire undead army and watch them crumble whenever they are within 6 ".That would be a well fun game

Sarah S
16-08-2009, 20:45
Don't be silly, the model get's removed for convenience. If someone pulls that I'll tell him to leave his dead where they drop and he can spend the rest of the day playing really carefully to avoid moving his corpses.

I disagree. I don't think there is any reason to believe a model removed from the table is within X inches of anything.

I would say that the Ring works in this case.

Also casualty removal isn't "for convenience," it's clearly described in the rules that you remove dead models.

Condottiere
16-08-2009, 21:02
Is this like the Giant's pants thing again?

T10
16-08-2009, 22:12
well if we are being fluff technical the prince can walk up to an entire undead army and watch them crumble whenever they are within 6 ".That would be a well fun game

I seem to recall the Armour of Mousillion (?) in fourth/fifth edition cause all undead models within 3 inches to lose one wound at the end of each of the wearer's movement phases.

Necromancy was a school of hard knocks back in those days.

-T10

Maoriboy007
16-08-2009, 22:15
Seems another reason not to take an IMO overpriced item .

Sam skywalker
16-08-2009, 22:21
I disagree. I don't think there is any reason to believe a model removed from the table is within X inches of anything.

I would say that the Ring works in this case.

Also casualty removal isn't "for convenience," it's clearly described in the rules that you remove dead models.


You remove dead models else you would have loads of dudes on there sides cluttering up the board... Think about it... The ring would not work. Its a magic item and is therefore nullified.

Sarah S
16-08-2009, 22:22
You remove dead models else you would have loads of dudes on there sides cluttering up the board... Think about it...
No I don't. I remove them because the rules tell me to. And I remove them WHEN the rules tell me to.

In this case you remove the model well before the ring would be triggered.

He dies and is removed from the table.
Phase ends and the Ring tries to bring him back to life.
Is he within range of the Talisman when the Ring is trying to bring him back to life? Hell no he's not, he's off of the table.

Kalandros
17-08-2009, 00:39
At the moment the Ring was removed from play along with the model it was nullified, thus it cannot work.
Stop being so damn annoying and play it fair - your ring's cancelled, stop crying.

Sarah S
17-08-2009, 00:45
That's quite the attitude there.

At the moment the Ring goes into effect and brings the character back to life he is off the table and not within any amount of inches (well he's probably several feet away, on another table or in the army box), thus it can work.

Stop being so damn annoying and play it fair - your stupid elf item doesn't work, stop crying.

Look, if it said "immediately when slain" or "before removing the figure" then there would be no question that the Ring would be nullified. But in the time between when he is killed and the time that the Ring brings him back to life he is removed from the table. There is no possible way he could be within range of the Null Stone.

Ganymede
17-08-2009, 01:07
So, if I positioned my Grey Seer with the Warpstone Amulet within 6" of a null stone during the last turn, the Seer would not have to test to see if the stone killed him at the end of the game?

jrodrag
17-08-2009, 01:11
This is not MtG and you can't apply these types of timing rules to this game. The rules are very unclear and written vaguely and there is no standard to go by. The removal of the models should not have any bearing as to thier location on the table on my opinion and I as well as many other tournament organizers I know would rule that the Carstien Ring would not work in this case. While you have a bit of an argument to claim that it still would it is not a strong enough argument to overcome the obvious intention in the interaction. My two cents.

HellRaid
17-08-2009, 01:13
In proper game terms I don't think the Ring would work in this situation.

However, as the Vampire player, I would politely ask my opponent if I could use the Carstein Ring anyway - I'd paid 75 points for it after all, essentially making my lord choice useless and effectively handing the High Elf player the game.

After some discussion and a small bribe, my opponent will likely agree with me.

I would then proceed to roll a 1, and my lord would die anyway.

Pirate Jimm
17-08-2009, 01:27
RAW, the vampire has been removed from the game. The Null Stone cannot effect him if he is removed from the game. The Carstein Ring, however, has an effect that continues in game after he has been removed, but having been removed he is out of the effective range of the Null Stone.

If you played it in the sensible and realistic way that the Null Stone could affect the vampire when he was not in the game, due to his corpse still being within six inches, what would happen in the case of Wulfrik the Wanderer entering the board when the Null Stone is within six inches of the table edge?
Seafang is a magic item, and if the Null Stone can affect magic items when they are not in the game, then it would nullify Seafang immediately before Wulfrik entered the board.

spiderfat451
17-08-2009, 02:30
the ring would not work. that is the point of the null stone, to render all magic items useless. the arguement that the model is dead and removed, so now is more than 6 inchs away is just silly in my opinion.

xragg
17-08-2009, 02:39
The ring doesn't activate until the end of the combat phase.



Here is the order of play;

-HE kills the vampire lord
-Vampire removed from the board (or put behind the unit to resolve com res)
-Replace the vampire lord with a R&F trooper
-Work out combat resolution
-Finish all the other close combats
-The carstein ring activates (he's nowhere near the null stone)


I know it's a weird question, because there is no such thing as a dead pile. Technically the vampire is supposed to be on the floor, but he isn't.

Meh, it's a daft question. Think i'll rule he can't use the ring if that ever comes up :D just thinking aloud really


No. The ring activates immediately after he dies. The vampire's death is the event that triggers the ring, not the vampire being dead at the end of the phase. You just dont roll for the ring's result until the current phase ends.

Necromancy Black
17-08-2009, 04:46
Seafang is a magic item, and if the Null Stone can affect magic items when they are not in the game, then it would nullify Seafang immediately before Wulfrik entered the board.

In all honesty it would be quite reasonable that Wulfrik can not enter the table within 6" because of the Null Stone.

Sarah S
17-08-2009, 05:40
No. The ring activates immediately after he dies. The vampire's death is the event that triggers the ring, not the vampire being dead at the end of the phase. You just dont roll for the ring's result until the current phase ends.


The first time the wearer of this ring is slain, roll a D6 at the end of the phase.
Vampire Counts book, p.86

So no, it doesn't activate immediately. It activates at the end of the phase - when he is no longer on the table - when it is impossible for him to be within 6" of the Null Stone.

Skywave
17-08-2009, 06:02
Interesting situation. I'm a VC player, and should I've been in this situation I would've let the null stone cancel the ring. Only I just realised that it work at the end of the phase and not on death. Sarah S bring good argument that the character is no longer on the battlefield when the ring trigger, so I guess I'd ask my oponent how he want to work it out. If we are bot unsure I'd D6 it.

WLBjork
17-08-2009, 06:02
The other point is, when the VC Ring activates I can place the Lord anwhere on the table, as long as it's with a unit that isn't in Close Combat - thus I can deploy him more than 6" away from the Null Stone.

xragg
17-08-2009, 07:11
I dont have a VC book, so I have to believe this quote is correct, "The first time the wearer of this ring is slain, roll a D6 at the end of the phase."

Putting the second part of that line in bold doesnt make rolling a die anymore a trigger then when the vampire dies. Many items in warhammer activate before you roll a die for it in a later phase. The trigger is the wearer being slain, specifically the first time. Its almost a simple if-then statement. If (vampire is first slain), then (roll d6). Since the null stone is around during the "if" portion, you never get to the "then" portion of the statement.

Nuada
17-08-2009, 08:21
I don't think there are any rules covering this situation. There is no such thing as a dead pile, it's an abstract game mechanic used to help resolve combat resolution.


In every other situation as soon as your models die and you lift him out of the unit to be put in your carrying case he's out the game. Apart from this possibility, which hasn't been taken into account.

The closest rule i can come up with would be for a similar situation. (page 31, removing casualties)..."Although casualties would really fall amongst the front rank, for the purpose of game play remove models from the rear rank."
I know this isn't exact, but for the purpose of game play figures are taken off the table when they are actually still on the table to represent them being casualties, similar to removing the rear rank models. Otherwise you would have to replace your model with a dead/injured version of the same model (actually there's an idea for GW to sell us all more figures :D ... the dead version of your army. Twice as many figures!! nooooo ;) )



I think the reason there's the line "at the end of the phase" is because otherwise a vampire lord would be able to attack with the unit he's in, die, come back to life with the ring, appear in a fresh unit that hasn't attacked yet, and attack again with the new unit. All of this in the same combat phase.



Here's another annoying situation :D What if the HE Prince with Null Stone charges the unit containing the Vampire Lord with Carstein Ring. The HEs kill the entire unit including the vampire lord on the first turn, then they overrun. This overrun takes them beyond the 6" radius. So, if you're beyond the 6" to where the vampire body fell in combat, does the ring work now? ....... do you have to mark where the vampire fell?

Atrahasis
17-08-2009, 08:23
The criterion for triggering the ring is the "the wearer of the ring is slain".
If the ring is nullified when this criterion is met, the ring is nullified and the criterion is meaningless. Dead vamp, no ring, no vamp.

Festus
17-08-2009, 08:29
Hi

Yes, Atrahasis, I agree ...

... but (the important bits always come after a but ;) ) on fluff terms, it is not as easy or obvious as it seems to be:
How does a Vampire die? What happens to his body, what to his ... erm ... spirit?
:)

Greetings
Festus

theunwantedbeing
17-08-2009, 08:46
However, as the Vampire player, I would politely ask my opponent if I could use the Carstein Ring anyway - I'd paid 75 points for it after all, essentially making my lord choice useless and effectively handing the High Elf player the game.


Ah, but then the HE player would politely point out that he had spent his full 100points of items on the null stone, thus voiding your own cost based argument as his was the more expensive item :P

In anycase, the Ring doesnt do anything when in range of a nullstone.
So if the wearer is slain, it shouldn't bring him back to life, as that would be the ring doing something wouldn't it?

Items dont do anything when they arent on the board.
eg.
the sundering banner
Kill the guy carrying it and that chosen lore isnt at a -2 to cast anymore

Allowing the Carstein Ring to Function when not on the board would mean that items such as that would keep working even when removed from the game.

The Red Scourge
17-08-2009, 09:55
the ring would not work. that is the point of the null stone, to render all magic items useless. the arguement that the model is dead and removed, so now is more than 6 inchs away is just silly in my opinion.

The point of the Carstein ring is that it is off the board :rolleyes:

The item works within the game mechanics. Just like the Wood-Elf-Can't-Touch-This-Annoyance-of-Nettlings is negated by auto hit weapons, the DE pendant is negated by no strength attacks - or how Dragon Princes just bounce 20 pounds of metal hurtling at them at high speed, because their armor is made of asbestos etc. etc.

You've got to distinguish between game mechanics and perceived fluff. Some things just won't make sense. This one will however. The Null Stone is an ancient and powerful artifact and The Carstein Ring is an ancient and even more powerful artifact - that is quite useless unless you take Frodo (Vlad) :)

nosferatu1001
17-08-2009, 17:56
The Red Scourge - it doesnt work int he mechanics of the game, at all.

The ring is activated by the wearer dying. At that point they are within range of the Null Stone. At that point no magic items work and therefore the bearer cannot use the rings power at the end of the phase.

rtunian
17-08-2009, 18:19
Q: is there a rule or faq that explicitly covers this situation?
A: no there is not

Q: what do you do when a situation arises that is not fully covered by the rules?
A: come up with a reasonable solution

Q: what if you can't reach an agreement?
A: d6

The Red Scourge
17-08-2009, 19:27
A: d6

So true :)

Sarah S
17-08-2009, 22:26
The ring is activated by the wearer dying.


That's not true. I quoted the rule above. The first time the Ring does ANYTHING is at the end of the phase in which the bearer died, not at the moment of death.

Lord Zarkov
17-08-2009, 22:44
But when a model dies it is removed from the game, and so without the ring's 'reminder' at the point of death that something needs to happen at the end of the phase the model would have to go back in the case, never to return

Sarah S
17-08-2009, 22:49
So what? The model is removed from the game.

And then at the end of the phase, you do what the ring tells you to do.

How hard is that to understand?

Just like when a Vampire General dies you don't do anything at the moment, but at the end of the phase, the army crumbles.

Dexter099
17-08-2009, 22:56
How does the vampire lord corporally vanish from the battlefield when he dies?

Sarah S
17-08-2009, 23:02
The same way every single other model in the game does?

How is this even an issue? Models not on the table are not within range of any other model on the table, except in a very abstract (and very large) sense.

stripsteak
18-08-2009, 00:10
you quoted the rules and the rules say that it is triggered when the vampire dies.

triggered when: "The first time the wearer of this ring is slain"
what to do when triggered: "roll a d6 at the end of the phase..."

just because you roll the dice at the end of the phase doesn't mean thats when the ring was used.

Maoriboy007
18-08-2009, 00:20
Take the Crown of the Damned or gem of blood save instead, that way you will have only wasted 25-35 points instead of 70.

HellRaid
18-08-2009, 00:25
Ah, but then the HE player would politely point out that he had spent his full 100points of items on the null stone, thus voiding your own cost based argument as his was the more expensive item :P

Touché!

In that case, I'd loudly curse the gods of fate for bringing both of our Lords of More-or-Less Useless Magic Items(tm) together on a battlefield and causing this rare and pointless situation.


Why not dice off for it the first time it happens? Then you can just *not take* the Carstein Ring ever again. Or just avoid the Null Stone with your Lord from now on. Or just dice off the next time it happens too.

Problem solved!


Also:

Take the Crown of the Damned or gem of blood save instead, that way you will have only wasted 25-35 points instead of 75.
This ^

xragg
18-08-2009, 00:27
Sarah S, you keep insisting that rolling a die is activating the magic item. Rolling a die isnt when the ring activates. Many magic items dont activate due to a die roll. Some you merely announce its activating, some automatically create an effect, and others activate upon achieving a criteria. Does the Carstein ring function if the vampire isnt slain? No. Then the vampire needs to be slain to activate the ring.

Assume a scenario where some of your army doesnt start on the table. When your vampire isnt on the table at the start of the game, do you roll a d6 to bring him back to life? Of you wouldnt, since he was never slain, which is the trigger to activate his ring.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 00:44
you quoted the rules and the rules say that it is triggered when the vampire dies.

triggered when: "The first time the wearer of this ring is slain"
what to do when triggered: "roll a d6 at the end of the phase..."

just because you roll the dice at the end of the phase doesn't mean thats when the ring was used.

There is no comma, so yes it does mean that the end of the phase is when the Ring is used.

Had there been a comma, then you might have a sliver of an argument, as it would divide the subject of the sentence. Without a comma, the first time the ring does anything is the end of the phase where the bearer is slain.

But that would still be a pretty pathetic argument considering it still wouldn't actually DO anything until the end of the phase.

About the only way your reasoning would work is if the ring said "immediately roll a D6" but it's not immediate, it's way later. So much later, the Vampire is not in range of anything on the table.

In fact, I would argue that perhaps GW intentionally wrote the Carstein Ring this way for the very purpose of not being nullified by such items (this or the stupid Tomb Kings one that no one takes [not that I've ever actually heard of anyone taking the Null Stone before - or the Carstein Ring for that matter... (If this ever comes up in a game I will eat my hat - both the Null Stone and Carstein Ring would have to be taken, that's probably infinitesimally low odds already, then the High Elves without any magic items will have to kill the Vampire Lord, without items but with Bloodline Powers, yeah, good luck)]).

jaxom
18-08-2009, 01:29
You're arguing punctuation in rules when the writers in this case cannot even string together coherent sets of rules?

Ok, how about this argument. If the vampire is in a box somewhere else, clearly not on the table, then how do you know which table to return him to? Heck, this is a game club and there could be four battles on four different tables. Imagine his shame if he accidentally joined a unit of Chaos Marines right before the Carnifex charged them.

The point is that the ring triggers because of a discrete event on a specific table and you have to have that context for it to trigger. The Null Stone is certainly present in that context for that trigger. Backing up that point of view is this FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350036_WarriorsofChaosFAQFeb2009.pdf) which clearly demonstrates that it matters how the wearer of the Ring dies. To quote GW... "He's gone, man. You must let go!"

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 01:37
It's different because Gateway doesn't even "slay" things, it just removes them from the table, so it doesn't even trigger the Ring. The spells description of things you can't use, could also be interpreted as including the Ring.

In this case I just don't see that the Ring does anything at all at the moment the Vampire is slain, and when the Ring does do try and do something, the Vampire is no longer within range of anything.

Sure, at the moment he's slain the Ring doesn't work. But at the moment the Ring tries to bring him back to life, the Ring is functional again.

It's not like the Null Stone permanently disables magic items. If the Vampire moved outside of the Null Stone's radius via any other method then the Ring, and all other items) would start working again. So why would the Null Stone keep the Ring nullified all the way until the end of the phase in this case?

stripsteak
18-08-2009, 01:49
but the ring does somethign when he is slain. it tells you to roll a dice at the end of the phase. just because that is when you roll the dice doesn't mean that is when the ring is used.

also the ring ends with if the roll is failed or no place to go '[the vampire] is removed as a casualty'. going off this and that the ring tells you what to do when the vampire is slain, not when he's been dead. i would seem they want the vampire to remain where he is until you can make the come back roll, at which point if he doesn't come back he is then removed. since hee would still be in the null bubble he can't make the roll and so would be removed.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 02:02
That's the closest thing I have seen to a solid argument for the "Ring doesn't work" side. It certainly seems to imply that the usual casualty removal rules are subverted and that he actually isn't removed until the end of the phase...

If that's the case, then he stays on the table and in the bubble.

I am almost ready to lean towards that interpretation, but it doesn't actually say he stays on the table, so it's a bit weird.

If he is removed from the table, then I can't see any way that the Ring isn't functioning at the end of the phase when it's time to do its business.
If he is not removed from the table, then I can't see any way the Ring would work.

I still think he is removed from the table, despite the minor implication.

I do think it's worth putting to a FAQ, but the answer won't be much better than a coin flip, so might as well D6 it if it ever comes up (which, as I've already said I don't think it ever will).

rtunian
18-08-2009, 02:15
red letter day!
august 17, 2009: sarah s nearly accepts an opposing viewpoint.

just joking :p

on a serious note though, there is some yet unexplored evidence that suggests that the dead vampire might not be kept in the same location as where he died: "the returning model must be placed in the front rank of a friendly unit anywhere on the battlefield"

if he died, and his corpse must remain where he died, then how can he be brought back to life in any other unit? especially if he was killed by a null stone bearing noble. i mean after all, he would then be in a unit that is engaged in close combat, and therefore forbidden to leave the unit, right?

it would seem to me that the null stone would prohibit the vampire from being raised in units w/in 6" of the stone, but if he is being raised in another unit far enough away, he should be fine.

stripsteak
18-08-2009, 02:46
that doesn't hold up though. wizards aren't allowed to cast out of the bubble. magic affects with larger radii don't extend out of the bubble. for example the banner of nagarythe doesn't affect the units that are between 6-12 inches from the banner the magic items inthe bubble lose all their power.

rtunian
18-08-2009, 12:49
focus!!
refute the example given, don't give an unrelated example. if it doesn't hold up, it must be because of its own merits, not because of examples of other types of magic. this is a special case, so why would you assume that it's a general case? there is no other item or mechanic in the game that is similar to the carstein ring, is there?

so again, i pose the question:

how can the vampire be brought back to life in any other unit if he is killed in close combat, and must remain where he was slain? the rule says he can be brought back anywhere on the table, but if he must remain where he was slain then he may not be moved to any other unit because he would be in a unit in close combat.

Necromancy Black
18-08-2009, 13:23
how can the vampire be brought back to life in any other unit if he is killed in close combat, and must remain where he was slain? the rule says he can be brought back anywhere on the table, but if he must remain where he was slain then he may not be moved to any other unit because he would be in a unit in close combat.

I'm not quite sure what your asking. If the ring says he can come back in any unit on the table that would override any rule saying he can't leave a unit in close combat.

I'm with whoever above said the ring isn't activated by the dice roll, but by killing the character. That's the point the rules kick in, and that's also the point the ring doesn't work. The ring doesn't work "the first time the wearer is slain".

It's like Kroq-Gar's spear. Wounds caused by it count as double for CR. If I attack the character with the Null Stone and kill him, then at the end of combat I don't get to double those wounds.

The condition to count the wounds as double is to do a wound, at which time the spear doesn't work. The condition to roll a dice to bring back the model at the end of the phase is that the model is slain for the first time, at which point the ring doesn't work.

Both effects would apply after the Null Stone isn't in range, but neither are triggered.

Jushak
18-08-2009, 16:55
the ring would not work. that is the point of the null stone, to render all magic items useless. the arguement that the model is dead and removed, so now is more than 6 inchs away is just silly in my opinion.

So true... While I don't play either army I find the whole "he's off the table!" argument ridiculous rules lawyering. Especially when the trigger of the item is obviously when the vampire dies.

Arguments like this would propably get laughed out of the club where I play :p

Anaris
18-08-2009, 16:58
Vampire Counts book, p.86

So no, it doesn't activate immediately. It activates at the end of the phase - when he is no longer on the table - when it is impossible for him to be within 6" of the Null Stone.

The reason you roll for the Ring at the end of the phase is so the Vampire doesn't die twice. If you were forced to roll for it as soon as he died that would be before you worked out the combat resolution. In that scenario you would probably find that more often or not, the model might very well end up dying, being restored with one wound and then dying to the combat resolution that saw his die in the first place.

It's the same with the Talisman of Loec, you take the wound at the end of the phase, simply so that it doesn't add to combat res.

Arguing that because the model is dead, off the table and therefore further than 6" from the Null Stone is adsurb and possible the worst example of RAW I've ever seen in my life.

I actually paused for a minute whilst typing this trying to think of an example of something in the WFB rules that might let your arguement have a chance, but I couldn't...

...because it is absurd.

EvC
18-08-2009, 17:07
How on earth can the deceased model have a defined position at all, when it is able to reappear at potentially any point whatsoever on the table?

rtunian
18-08-2009, 17:12
you can't just assume that he dies in close combat

a character can be targetted by any number of spells that can pick out a single model out of a unit, even negating look out sir bonus. so "combat res" can't be the explanation. he doesn't even have to be in combat with the null stone bearing noble in order to be w/in 6" of it and die

i know you guys are really set in your opinions, but the fact of the matter is that there is not a rule about this. there is no rule about where models are considered to be when they die. there is no ruling or faq about how these two magic items interact.

you cannot force an interpretation on an opponent in a game. the most important rule forbids it. if something is not clearly covered by the rules, which in this case, it absolutely is not, then you try to come up with a reasonable solution, and if you cannot agree, then you d6 it.

why is the most important rule the least remembered rule??

Caiphas Cain
18-08-2009, 17:28
I would allow it. The thing does cost 75 points. Besides the ring activates after the model is removed from the field.

Lord Inquisitor
18-08-2009, 17:42
The ring is activated by the wearer dying. At that point they are within range of the Null Stone. At that point no magic items work and therefore the bearer cannot use the rings power at the end of the phase.

This has been an interesting little thread. I'm not sure I'm convinced either way. However I will throw this out there:

What if the vampire is killed while within 6" of the null stone, but before the end of the phase the null stone is removed (the bearer is killed or the bearer's unit flees away - perhaps the vampire lord is in a unit of Blood Knights!)?

At the end of the phase, the vampire (corpse) can't be considered within 6" by any means, so he resurrects, right?

Atrahasis
18-08-2009, 17:51
Arguing that because the model is dead, off the table and therefore further than 6" from the Null Stone is adsurb and possible the worst example of RAW I've ever seen in my life.Except it isn't RAW, so pretty please don't tar the concept with the brush of this absurd "interpretation".

@Lord Inquisitor - no, because he was within 6" of the Null Stone when he was slain, which is the trigger of the item. Dead vamp, no ring, no vamp.

xragg
18-08-2009, 18:45
you can't just assume that he dies in close combat

i know you guys are really set in your opinions, but the fact of the matter is that there is not a rule about this. there is no rule about where models are considered to be when they die.

Its pretty obvious where the model is when it dies, right where it is sitting on the table. What you mean to say is that there is no rule describing exactly where a model is AFTER it has died. By that time, the null stone has already denied the carstein ring from activating. Any argument that focuses on where the model is after it has been slain is moot. As pointed out in the WoC FAQ, having the vampire simply removed from the table is not enough to activate the ring. The vampire has to be slain to activate the ring. The vampire has a definite location on the table when he is slain.

Dokushin
18-08-2009, 19:10
The ring does not activate from "off the table", that's silly. The ring activates when the Lord is killed and puts an effect on him that gives him a chance to come back to life at the end of the phase.

Null Stone -> Ring doesn't activate because it doesn't work -> no chance to come back to life.

Talking like the ring "knows" when it's removed from play and "activates" from off the board is smoke-blowing. The effects of the ring are irrelevant for the Null Stone; all that matters is when it's triggered, which is when the Lord dies, which is within range of the Null Stone, and hence doesn't happen.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 22:26
How does it activate when he is slain? What does it do?

Everything it does is at the end of the phase.

Lord Zarkov
18-08-2009, 22:38
How does it activate when he is slain? What does it do?

Everything it does is at the end of the phase.

Right here:

The first time the wearer of the ring is slain...
You don't get to use any rules anything after this unless this clause is complied with therefore this is the activation clause.

The result of activation is that you may roll a dice at the end of the phase it activates in, the result of which may bring the character back from the dead.

Necromancy Black
18-08-2009, 22:41
How does it activate when he is slain? What does it do?

Everything it does is at the end of the phase.

Everything that Revered Spear of Tlanxa does is at the end of combat. That doesn't mean you can use this ability at the end of combat if during combat it was in range of the Null Stone.

If the vampire dies while in range of the Null Stone, then the ring isn't working when he dies.

You can't argue that the ring works without the bearer dieing. If the ring doesn't work when this happens you can't just skip to the next part and roll to bring him back.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 22:42
There's no comma!
You can't just end the quote there, you're perverting the meaning of the sentence.

The correct and full quotation is:

The first time the wearer of this ring is slain roll a D6 at the end of the phase.

It's all one sentence. The section you have quoted only means that the Ring only activates the first time he is killed, not on subsequent killings. It doesn't mean it activates when he is killed, it tells you when it activates (hint, it's the end of the phase)! It just means that it won't activate the SECOND TIME HE IS SLAIN.


Everything that Revered Spear of Tlanxa does is at the end of combat. That doesn't mean you can use this ability at the end of combat if during combat it was in range of the Null Stone.
It does if you're not in range of the Null Stone at the end of the combat phase!

Necromancy Black
18-08-2009, 22:50
Don't need a comma. The first time he is slain roll a d6 at the end of the phase. There are still 2 parts there comma or not, and the first part relates to the first time he is slain. If you've got no working item then, how can you then go on to the next part.

Also, what was with the whole argument before that he's not on the table any more? (this isn't direct at you Sarah) Since when can you activate items if your not on the table?

Oh, and no. No way would the spear double wounds at the end of combat if out of range of the Null Stone. This is a MUCH clearer case because wounds done by the Revered Spear count wounds as double, but when the wounds were done it was only a regular spear. This means the Revered Spear did no wounds itself.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 22:53
Also, what was with the whole argument before that he's not on the table any more? (this isn't direct at you Sarah) Since when can you activate items if your not on the table?

When they tell you that you can?

Since when can you activate items when you're dead?


Oh, and no. No way would the spear double wounds at the end of combat if out of range of the Null Stone. This is a MUCH clearer case because wounds done by the Revered Spear count wounds as double, but when the wounds were done it was only a regular spear. This means the Revered Spear did no wounds itself.

This is wrong.

Lord Zarkov
18-08-2009, 22:55
There's no comma!

Exactaly!
Therefore the second clause in that sentance is conditional on the first one. If it said "Roll a dice at the end of the phase in which the wearer was slain for the first time" it might mean what you think it means - the ring activates at the end of the phase, but worded as it is it absolutly activates when the wearer is slain for the first time.

Imagine if it said "you get a nice prize" instead of "roll a D6", the point of activation would not be when you get your nice prize, but the act of the wearer being slain for the first time.
Well you do infact get a nice prize - the ablity to roll a D6 to save your general.

The clauses after the first are irrelavent for the point of activation.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 22:56
That part you keep quoting only means that the item does not activate the second time he is slain.

Lord Zarkov
18-08-2009, 23:00
No it doesn't.

Lets put it this way - what's to stop me using the gem without dieing first (to hop units across the board prehaps)? Would that be because the ring only activates when the wearer is slain for the first time? I think so.

Edit
The two words "the first time" being used instead of 'when' in "the wearer of this ring is slain" stops it being used multiple times, not the words "the wearer of this ring is slain", which is infact the activation clause.

xragg
18-08-2009, 23:07
Since when can you activate items when you're dead?



two magic items that activate upon death:
Carstein's Ring
Brimstone Bauble

Along with Revered Spear of Tlanxa, Laurels of Victory is the same. Go through many army books and I am sure you are going to find more and more flaws to this logic.

Necromancy Black
18-08-2009, 23:58
This is wrong.

The Revered Spear makes wounds count as double. If that rule doesn't exist and you do a wound with it (when it counts as a normal spear) how many wounds have you done with the rule that you count them as double.

None.

Sarah S
19-08-2009, 00:19
Along with Revered Spear of Tlanxa, Laurels of Victory is the same. Go through many army books and I am sure you are going to find more and more flaws to this logic.

I know, because they tell you that they can... That was my point. If you're dead, you're off the table.

Tuch
19-08-2009, 00:27
I don't see how a magic item can do anything if it isn't actively working when the action that triggers its effect (dying) happens. Regardless of what part of the phase the effect occurs in the item was powerless when it happened.

IMHO, trying to say the ring works when its nullified at the time of death reeks of someone trying to get away with something, and the more one tries to scrutinize every wording at every angle to prove it makes it seem even more so.

Tarian
19-08-2009, 00:28
As a HE player, if I took that... interesting 100 point item and someone told me their magic weapons/items retroactively work because they killed the Null Stone character...

"The first time the wearer of this ring is slain roll a D6 at the end of the phase. "

Condition (n): One that is indispensable to the appearance or occurrence of another; prerequisite

Now... what's the prerequisite for the activation of the ring?
1) The bearer is slain
2) The phase ends
3) A d6 is rolled

Now, what is the effect of the ring?
1) Roll a d6 at the end of the phase
2) Can't think of anything else that could remotely qualify as an effect.

Now, each effect needs a condition. Without the condition being met, there is no effect.

Basically... I think I just rehashed some arguments, but I do believe that the ring would NOT work based on the conditions and the wording of the Null Stone.

jaxom
19-08-2009, 02:30
Does anyone here think that the argument has not been laid out clearly? Maybe Sarah doesn't understand what you mean?

Can we let this thread die before it hits 20 pages? She doesn't care what you think. She made her mind up and now she just needs to argue until she wins the interwebs.

Personally I still think that since her model is not on the table it needs to randomly determine which table it comes back to since it has absolutely no relation to where the model died. I'm waiting for him to try going up against a group of Devastators or something.

Condottiere
19-08-2009, 04:45
I guess that it is a question of sequence, which isn't always clear in this game.

You usually are positioned where you fall, so if you fell within range of an item that nullifies this resurrection effect, then it shouldn't activate.

However, if the bearer of the Null stone overruns and the Null stone is beyond range, then I believe the Ring activates.

Necromancy Black
19-08-2009, 07:21
However, if the bearer of the Null stone overruns and the Null stone is beyond range, then I believe the Ring activates.

I'll disagree with this. Doesn't matter where the Null Stone is except when the model with the ring dies. If it's in range at that point then the ring can't be used.