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Ultimate Life Form
16-08-2009, 17:29
Okay, I'm really itching to finally break out my Zombie Dragon, but recently, I got second thoughts about his. What exactly do you do with a Vampire Count on Zombie Dragon?:confused: I understand the appeal of a big, flying Terror causer with Breath Weapon which is why I got it in the first place, but upon closer thinking, it sprang to my mind that it's a bit different in this case because for Vampires it's a really, really bad idea to put their general far from his army somewhere between the enemy troops. Especially when the enemies are Wood Elves who delight in shooting at large targets. I fear a single turn of focused fire is all it takes to oblitterate the 500 pts beast and my entire army with it. So what is your advice, what kind of tactic do you suggest for a Zombie Dragon in general and against Wood Elves in particular? Maybe I'd best save it for a better opportunity?

rtunian
16-08-2009, 17:32
play it in 3k+ games

Kalec
16-08-2009, 17:48
For a lord on a dragon, I recommend this set-up:

lvl 3 upgrade
Blood Drinker
Flayed Hauberk
Wristbands of Black Gold
Eternal Hatred
Red Fury
Walking Death or Beguile

Can withstand quite a bit of shooting, heals quickly in combat, and hits more then hard enough to wipe out anything short of a treeman on the charge.

A caster lord will almost always serve you better, but a lord on a dragon can work just fine.

Ultimate Life Form
16-08-2009, 17:58
Ah, thank you very much, that is a very good idea you have there. Just to clear things up, the Blood Drinker and the Wristbands work for the Dragon as well because both are a single model and cout as "the bearer", right?

Oberon
16-08-2009, 18:03
No, the dragon is not the bearer, but blood drinker heals the dragon too. Wounds dealt by the dragon won't heal though.

Take enough magic to get vanhels through, and you won't have to endure so many rounds of shooting. And don't fly to the center of the field all high and mighty, zombie dragon can't take it. :)

Ultimate Life Form
16-08-2009, 18:06
No, the dragon is not the bearer, but blood drinker heals the dragon too. Wounds dealt by the dragon won't heal though.


Ah, yes, yes, that's what I meant, I just worded it wrongly. So does the Dragon get a 3+ Ward against shooting or no? Only the Vampire then, I suppose?

(And I'll be hard pressed to be not high and mighty because of my superiority complex...:cries: And why am I asking such stupid questions, with my Lizardmen I instantly know how the items are supposed to work. Reptilian soul link...)

Oberon
16-08-2009, 18:38
No, only the lord gets a ward save. :/ The dragon is not the bearer.

Mullitron
16-08-2009, 19:06
Had a look at a builds for zombie dragon recently and came up with:

Aura of dark majesty: makes the lord more effective at breaking units on the charge

Infinite hatred: effects mount also and again help improve chances of doing enough damage to break units in one turn.

Walking death: again with the same aim to break units on turn of charge and not get bogged down into combat.

flayed haubrek: protection

wristband of black gold: protection from shooting

cursed book: to help with an all important fight ie vs enemy character

sword of might: to make it easier to wound and reduce enemy saves.

Sarah S
16-08-2009, 19:57
I don't think the Cursed Book is such a good idea on the Zombie Dragon mounted Vampire.

I can't think of a single reason I would ever attack the Vampire with anything, and instead always devote all of my attacks to the soft, squishy Dragon with terrible save.

kardar233
16-08-2009, 20:02
Standard practice for a ZD Lord is either:

Red Fury
Infinite Hatred
Walking Death
Dreadlance
Crown of the Damned

or:

Red Fury
Infinite Hatred
Walking Death
Balefire Spike
Walach's Bloody Hauberk
and 45 points of items of your choice.

zeekill
16-08-2009, 22:25
Okay, I'm really itching to finally break out my Zombie Dragon, but recently, I got second thoughts about his. What exactly do you do with a Vampire Count on Zombie Dragon?:confused: I understand the appeal of a big, flying Terror causer with Breath Weapon which is why I got it in the first place, but upon closer thinking, it sprang to my mind that it's a bit different in this case because for Vampires it's a really, really bad idea to put their general far from his army somewhere between the enemy troops. Especially when the enemies are Wood Elves who delight in shooting at large targets. I fear a single turn of focused fire is all it takes to oblitterate the 500 pts beast and my entire army with it. So what is your advice, what kind of tactic do you suggest for a Zombie Dragon in general and against Wood Elves in particular? Maybe I'd best save it for a better opportunity?

Sorry, but in 2000-2999 point games, take it out for a unit of blood knights. Blood Knights will destroy any unit they want if they get the charge off, which you should with vanhel's dance

mossel
16-08-2009, 22:43
why put infinte hatred on a lord with the dreadlance? it already hits automatically...
as a matter of fact, the dragon even seems over the top, as 4 auto hitting, wounding on 2+ attacks that will almost always get 4 additional auto hitting wounding on 2+ will ALWAYS do the job.

If it's just to get hatred for the zombie dragon, I'd give my Vampire another (cheaper!!) weapon, so he either would be cheaper or he gets more save/casting power.-/...

HellRaid
17-08-2009, 00:59
If I took a Zombie Dragon, I'd have to quip the lord with Blood Drinker. Against any army with decent shooting, your dragon is going to take wounds, and your lord will need to heal them.

I agree than the Dreadlance is overkill - save it for a dread knight.

Personally I'd take:
Blood Drinker
Flayed Hauberk
Crown of the Damned/Wristbands of Black Gold (depends whether you want to risk that one failed stupidity roll... you're probably better off with the Wristbands since you shouldn't be taking damage in combat anyway)
Red Fury
Infinite Hatred
Walking Death/Beguile (both have their uses - Beguile essentially guarantees a wound (and a heal!) but Walking Death guarantees +1CR (which you might need). Personally I'd take Beguile.)

The one problem I find with the Zombie Dragon is that it takes up a Hero slot, and that means less casters - or in my case, no Wight King. It's the only reason I've never fielded it, besides not owning the model :P

The Abyssal Terror does the same job just as well, IMO.

SMann233
17-08-2009, 04:25
Cloud of Flies is worth the upgrade over the Abyssal Terror. The other stat upgrades are kinda meh.

Here's the build I've used with the Vamp on Zombie Dragon:

Red Fury
Walking Death
Beguile/AoD (if you want the Shield)

Dreadlance
Nightshroud
Enchanted Shield/Whatever Utility piece you think suits if you took Beguile. (I kinda like Black Periapt, personally, this Lord doesn't always throw out all his magic.)

Both the Dragon and the rider are reasonably tough enough to shrug off archery fire, and you should have enough other magic/anti-magic in your list to keep the magic missiles from coming their way. (Plus, the fact that the Lord can be a level 3 wizard means you've got a 50% shot at getting to Danse yourself around.)

That said, with this setup, you're choosing to take a bit weaker armor in favor of the ability to kill pretty much ANYTHING. Nightshroud takes care of any problems should you not get the charge, and anytime you do get the charge, you're throwing out 4x Red Fury auto-hit attacks, meaning that before your dragon even swings, you've probably killed everything basing you. If you go up against anything reasonably tough (see: another monster/dragon, etc.) Beguile ensures you get said wounds off.

That said, this build is horribly weak against certain kinds of shooting. Skaven guns, Dwarven War Machines, etc. are all going to cause serious problems here. But, I maintain, the dragon is always a bad thing to take against such forces, so... if you're gonna go this route, you might as well go all the way. :)

mrtspence
17-08-2009, 06:14
My younger brother takes a Vamp lord with Blood Fury, heavy armour/shield, with the dreadlance and the ward save that gives it stupidity (forgive my lack of Vamp knowledge) on an abyssal terror. It has most of the important parts of a zombie dragon (flying, terror causing) but costs much less. He flank and rear charged blocks of Saurus warriors and was killing 8-9 a turn between the autohitting lance getting 3-4 wounds (followed by an additional 3-4 due to red fury) and the mount killing 1-2. It was brutal. It killed so much so fast that nothing could retaliate. I ended up trampling his mount with an ancient steg and then killing him off combat res + a wound dealt from a rear-charging scar-vet. He had a vamp on foot, drakonhof wight king, and a necromancer to look after his army and let his Lord ravage my army (killed like 24 saurus and an expensive scarvet in a few turns!). He has also eliminated entire units of Tomb king chariots on the charge. I have seen him kill bloodthirsters from time to time too. He frequently flew behind units and danced himself into the rear of units for insane combat res and completely prevented counter attack. He hasn't really had to worry about missile fire too much as he is either in combat first or second turn or has it tucked somewhere safe on the way to combat. He also has excellent T and a solid armoursave, so his mount is often the only thing taking wounds from most shooting.

Seems like a good build to me.

Kalec
17-08-2009, 13:03
Until he fails a stupidity roll and loses his lord and the game.

Gokamok
17-08-2009, 17:01
A somewhat odd build, but it might be effective:

Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Walking Death
Carstein Ring, Sword of Might, Talisman of the Lycni

The Lord and Dragon combined should have enough power to break almost anything on the charge without taking any attacks back, so as long as you manage not to get shot at too much things should be ok.

IF the Dragon goes down, the Lord is still very mobile, and the risk of losing the Lord is rather small due to the Carstein Ring.

Nukem
17-08-2009, 18:52
Didnt see this combo yet, I find it rather funny, but by no means use this in a tourny lol.

Dreadlance
Wristbands

Red Fury
Walking Death

The only minor points you have left over you can do whatever you want with, I just like the 4 auto hit str7 which if they wound you get another (x) of autohits(at least this is how I'm, viewing it. If its wrong tell me) I just use it to munch some heavily armored troops or cav. I've killed 7 khorne nights on the charge and ran em down. Again probably not the best, but it sure is fun :p

Cheers,
Colin

nzdarkelf
17-08-2009, 23:24
Until he fails a stupidity roll and loses his lord and the game.

Gee you can't win every game mate. '****' will happen sometimes! :)

Kalec
18-08-2009, 00:35
It will. You will win more games if you minimize the amount of "****" that can happen.

rtunian
18-08-2009, 02:20
if you eat enough rice, shiz will never happen.

nzdarkelf
18-08-2009, 05:02
It will. You will win more games if you minimize the amount of "****" that can happen.

True, but on Ld 10, the times he pays the price for this item (ie failed Stupidity), will be greatly out weighed by the number of wounds the ward save saves.

EvC
18-08-2009, 12:46
I don't think so really, a 4+ ward save is good but not great. Whilst every failed stupiity test sees the most important third of your army useless for a turn an woefully out of position. Crown is best on a more moderate combat Vampire Lord, that won't cost you th game when it fails stupidity. And as others note, people will hit the Dragon more often than not in combat anyway.

Ultimate Life Form
18-08-2009, 13:06
Thanks people, I'm grateful for any input, but I don't like the stupid wardsave crown. I'm a very cautious player and I try banning everything from my lists that has even a faint chance of going awry. Especially with VC where you enjoy commanding 100% reliable troops, it's one of the major appeals to me. I don't want to ruin that experience for me.

Whenever I take something with stupidity, it utterly screws up when needed the most. This last happened to me on Sunday when my Scarvet on Cold One refused to charge the enemy Dragon Princes in the flank which cost me the game (batrep (hopefully) soon to follow). I'm not gonna have a stupid Zombie Dragon general who holds my entire army together, sorry.

(But a 4+ War is not that bad; my Slann's shield of the Old Ones always proves handy...)

Kayosiv
19-08-2009, 01:32
It kinda depends on how much damage you think the vampire is going to be taking.

You're going to fail that stupidity roll 1/9 of the time, so ever other game it's going to be a bummer, and 2 games in a row like every 50 games it'll happen twice with horrible horrible results. But also remember that's counting that you have to take the test every turn, you don't have to take stupidity checks if you are in combat. Plus when you charge a unit of temple guard with Slann from the front and take it down through sheer awesome, you probably don't care if your dragon goes stupid next turn.

In protections sake, a 4+ Ward save is so much more potent than a 5+ ward save it is ridiculous. A 5+ Ward save effectively gives your lord 4 wounds, and a 4+ Ward save gives him 6 wounds. That's a DANG big difference.

With that said, I've never fielded my Lord with the Crown of the Damned, opting for the Flayed Heubruk every time. I always give me Crown to another Vampire who flies around with a great weapon killing archers, lone mages, and war machine crews, it is his job to make it safe for my lord on a dragon to pop out and destroyify the enemy.

Gokamok
19-08-2009, 02:34
You're going to fail that stupidity roll 1/9 of the time(...)

No, it's only 1/12, but still far too often for my liking;)

Maoriboy007
19-08-2009, 04:02
No, it's only 1/12, but still far too often for my liking;)

I'd never put the crown on a flying monster steed, but the crown in infantry isn't too bad. You don't expect your infantry to be going too fast and generally only forwards anyway.
It goes well with the immune to KB armour (the bane of VC Generals) and a black coach (move it in to make use of those valuable PD when you do start dribbling)

EvC
19-08-2009, 12:45
Plus when you charge a unit of temple guard with Slann from the front and take it down through sheer awesome, you probably don't care if your dragon goes stupid next turn.

Wouldn't happen though. I myself have charged my Zombie Dragon into Temple Guard with Slann, and also Saurus with Scar Vet of massive save, and both times the Dragon has crumbled. With starting Cr of 6 or 7 the Temple Huard is not a good idea- and if the Slann has regen or ethereal, once he challenges the Dragon it's going to start going bad. And that's not even considering the Engine, or the Transmutation of Lead spell... Zombie Dragons are good but do require a small amount of finesse to work!


In protections sake, a 4+ Ward save is so much more potent than a 5+ ward save it is ridiculous. A 5+ Ward save effectively gives your lord 4 wounds, and a 4+ Ward save gives him 6 wounds. That's a DANG big difference.

If only probability was that simple though! You can speak of how it is effectively 6 wounds, but when a single D3 wound hit kills your Vamp Lord, it totally dispels that ideology...

Kayosiv
20-08-2009, 01:50
Wouldn't happen though. I myself have charged my Zombie Dragon into Temple Guard with Slann, and also Saurus with Scar Vet of massive save, and both times the Dragon has crumbled. With starting Cr of 6 or 7 the Temple Huard is not a good idea- and if the Slann has regen or ethereal, once he challenges the Dragon it's going to start going bad. And that's not even considering the Engine, or the Transmutation of Lead spell... Zombie Dragons are good but do require a small amount of finesse to work!


The Toad cannot challenge your Lord because he is not in the first rank (and thus, isn't in base combat with the enemy which is required to challenge) and not in melee combat. The way I run my lord (Red fury, hatred, sword of might) means that I have a maximum of 13 wounds I can cause. Now Obviously things can (and do) go horribly wrong, but I hit on 3's with re-rollable misses, and wound on 2's, the temple guard get no saves, and don't get to attack back. I'm bound to get in the realm of 8-9 wounds if probability is being fair to me, which is more than enough to win combat, not reliably break them sadly, but still, more than enough to win.

Obviously this changes if there's a hefty scar veteran in the unit playing bodyguard, or worse, Chakax, however you'd never charge a TG unit in the front if those things were the case.

On the Flipside, if the Slann COULD challenge you, that means there so few temple guard left that they are likely to not get much static combat resolution as their ranks are decimated. So while you may lose by 2-4 points, the Slann certainly isn't going to hurt you in close combat, and your crumble damage will be the only damage you are taking. Even with regeneration and it's 4+ ward save, every 4th wound isn't going to be saved, and since the slann is just as easy to hit and wound as the temple guard (before saves) you are going to be wounding it a lot. Red fury won't be nearly as useful because most of the wounds will be saved by regen/ward, but I still think the Slann will go down before you do. At base you have 9 attacks with your dragon/Lord, 7-8 of those are going to wound, and 1-2 statistically, won't be saved. The slann has a single strength 3 attack that is hitting and wounding on 6's.



If only probability was that simple though! You can speak of how it is effectively 6 wounds, but when a single D3 wound hit kills your Vamp Lord, it totally dispels that ideology...

If I was hit by a 1d3 wounds attack, I'd want the 4+ ward save instead of the 5+ wouldn't you? =)

EvC
20-08-2009, 13:00
The Toad cannot challenge your Lord because he is not in the first rank (and thus, isn't in base combat with the enemy which is required to challenge) and not in melee combat.

This happens later on in the combat ;)


The way I run my lord (Red fury, hatred, sword of might) means that I have a maximum of 13 wounds I can cause. Now Obviously things can (and do) go horribly wrong, but I hit on 3's with re-rollable misses, and wound on 2's, the temple guard get no saves, and don't get to attack back.

This is where you go wrong. Temple Guard get no saves? 2+ save at -3 makes what? A 5+ save. This means your Red Fury Lord might do 4 wounds a turn, and the Dragon 2. That's a total of 6. You might do better on the charge, but you'll also be limited to 6CR by challenge from unit champion. Add in 3 ranks, outnumber, standard, battle standard and war banner and you've lost- although not by much and it does get better as the turns go on. But then you're likely to get a Steg in the flank or Burninated by then.


I'm bound to get in the realm of 8-9 wounds if probability is being fair to me, which is more than enough to win combat, not reliably break them sadly, but still, more than enough to win.

No, just about enough to draw level sometimes.


On the Flipside, if the Slann COULD challenge you, that means there so few temple guard left that they are likely to not get much static combat resolution as their ranks are decimated. So while you may lose by 2-4 points, the Slann certainly isn't going to hurt you in close combat, and your crumble damage will be the only damage you are taking. Even with regeneration and it's 4+ ward save, every 4th wound isn't going to be saved, and since the slann is just as easy to hit and wound as the temple guard (before saves) you are going to be wounding it a lot. Red fury won't be nearly as useful because most of the wounds will be saved by regen/ward, but I still think the Slann will go down before you do. At base you have 9 attacks with your dragon/Lord, 7-8 of those are going to wound, and 1-2 statistically, won't be saved. The slann has a single strength 3 attack that is hitting and wounding on 6's.

7-8 hits from 9 attacks? The Dragon doesn't get re-rolls every round, you know. But you might be able to hold your own in a vacuum, the real question is, in an actual game, would you? This is your Vampire Lord- a bad turn's rolling and the Dragon is dead with him following quickly. The Lizardmen can actually still win without the Slann however.

You've not actually tried this, have you? To be honest, most Slann don't bother with regen or ethereal so let's forget about that. Simply put, against a Lizardmen player who protects his massive bunker half-decently, a Dragon in the front won't do it. If you can get it in the flank, I'd rate it, but not in the front. Between the turn 1 challenge guaranteeing you a loss, and the Lizardmen's retaliation (Can you stop a Slann from hitting you with Law of Gold to remove your magic items, a Rule of Burning Iron that may put you down another wound and Transmutation of Lead to significantly weaken you in combat? Probably not when you have a Lord who has no focus on magic and only 2 other heroes).


If I was hit by a 1d3 wounds attack, I'd want the 4+ ward save instead of the 5+ wouldn't you? =)

Of course I'd want as good a save as I can get :)

Kayosiv
21-08-2009, 00:17
I was assuming that the Temple Guard would be using Halberds, good call on that one, they would get a save.

The reason I'd get that many wounds is because each unsaved wound from the Lord (who is wounding on a 2+) grants an extra attack that hits on a 3, with rerollable misses, and again wounding on 2's.

If the Lizardman player chose to use sword and shield, that changes everything, and you'd be quite correct that with a 5+ armor save the vampire wouldn't be able to inflict nearly enough damage to win combat reliably without a lot of luck on his side.

To answer your other question, yes, I have done it, here's the situation.

In a large team game, my dragon had been hit by the dwarf Anvil of Doom, and so could not fly, so it was reduced to a movement of 6". Approximately 13" away from me was an oldblood riding a carnosaur that was going to charge me next turn. About 3" away from me was a temple guard unit and a slann bunkered in there. I was at the map edge and couldn't run far enough away to get out of range of both chargers, so I was going to get hit by something no matter what. My only route of escape from the Carnosaur was to charge the Temple Guard unit and try to break it so I could overrun out of the Carnosaur's charge range.

I proceeded to charge the temple guard from the front, and win combat. Now unfortunately for me they had a stubborn cold blooded leadership test that was rerollable, so my odds were slim, however they were a lot better than simply being duel charged and dying before I got to ever fight back, so I think I made the right choice. The Temple Guard didn't break, but I did manage to reduce the temple guard by 8 models before a Carnosaur hit me in the flank and ate my dragon. Also my Vampire lord managed to deal 4 wounds to the Carnosaur too, but subsequently crumbled from combat rez after combat ended.

It's clear to me now that if the lizardmen player had opted to use sword/shield instead of Halberds when I charged, or if he challenged with his unit champion (he didn't have one) in his temple guard unit, I wouldn't have done nearly as well against it.

mr_vespa
21-08-2009, 00:34
Haha. Oh yes, the dire events leading to a Ld 10 Stupidity roll failure...

Anywho, back on subject. Under 3k, I'd never field a Zombie Dragon because it limits the number of additional casters the VC player can field (which is never a good thing IMO), and costs a truckload of pts. The Dragon's aura is quite useful, but with lower toughness than its living counterparts, it can be peppered to death quite easily.

From what I've gathered from fellow VC players and spectating, this build makes the Vamp Lord on Dragon shine in my area:
- Balefire Spike, Walach's Bloody Hauberk, The Cursed Book, Gem of Blood // Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Beguile --> With this build, your Lord is pouncing into combat with a huge punch and gets a very high number of attacks in due to re-rolling hits and probably re-rolling wounds. Defensively, he might appear a bit underrated since his only 'protection' revolves around Walach's Bloody Hauberk (lacking a shield since VCs cannot equip a normal one without Avatar of Death/Dread Knight). However, this is mitigated with the use of the Cursed Book and Gem of Blood. They act as a trump card should things look bad for your big bad Vamp, providing him with the option of turning their opponent into a wussy (yes yes, you DE assassins and Bloodthirsters, I mean you) or rebouding a lucky wound to his opponent. Shooting and magic will be nuisances, but careful positioning and IoN castings should be able to get you through that kind of abuse with relative ease.

EvC
21-08-2009, 12:35
Yeah that's a pretty nice set-up, I might actually risk charging a Dark Elf infantry unit with that one :D


I was assuming that the Temple Guard would be using Halberds, good call on that one, they would get a save.

The reason I'd get that many wounds is because each unsaved wound from the Lord (who is wounding on a 2+) grants an extra attack that hits on a 3, with rerollable misses, and again wounding on 2's.

Yes, I do understand mathematics, thank you, I already showed you where you'd gone wrong, that's why I was able to correct you ;)


If the Lizardman player chose to use sword and shield, that changes everything, and you'd be quite correct that with a 5+ armor save the vampire wouldn't be able to inflict nearly enough damage to win combat reliably without a lot of luck on his side.

And any Lizardmen player who has the slightest clue as to what he's doing will indeed choose hand weapon and shield.


To answer your other question, yes, I have done it, here's the situation.

In a large team game, my dragon had been hit by the dwarf Anvil of Doom, and so could not fly, so it was reduced to a movement of 6". Approximately 13" away from me was an oldblood riding a carnosaur that was going to charge me next turn. About 3" away from me was a temple guard unit and a slann bunkered in there. I was at the map edge and couldn't run far enough away to get out of range of both chargers, so I was going to get hit by something no matter what. My only route of escape from the Carnosaur was to charge the Temple Guard unit and try to break it so I could overrun out of the Carnosaur's charge range.

I proceeded to charge the temple guard from the front, and win combat. Now unfortunately for me they had a stubborn cold blooded leadership test that was rerollable, so my odds were slim, however they were a lot better than simply being duel charged and dying before I got to ever fight back, so I think I made the right choice. The Temple Guard didn't break, but I did manage to reduce the temple guard by 8 models before a Carnosaur hit me in the flank and ate my dragon. Also my Vampire lord managed to deal 4 wounds to the Carnosaur too, but subsequently crumbled from combat rez after combat ended.

It's clear to me now that if the lizardmen player had opted to use sword/shield instead of Halberds when I charged, or if he challenged with his unit champion (he didn't have one) in his temple guard unit, I wouldn't have done nearly as well against it.

You still ended up losing your Dragon and Lord, which is exactly what I said would happen. And we're talking about whether you'd voluntarily charge a Vampire Lord on Dragon into the Slann bunker- not whether it'd be a better choice than getting double-charged as a result of being hit by the Anvil of Doom.

Pretty damn obviously! :wtf:

Malorian
21-08-2009, 13:04
Ya but the "****" is what makes games interesting ;)

I give my vampire lord the crown of stupid and it has saved me more games than it has lost.

EvC
21-08-2009, 13:16
Yeah, cos you're lucky. What was that last battle report, you passed two ward saves from killing blows? :p

chippyman64
21-08-2009, 13:35
My favourite combo is dreadlance and redfury, charge him into infantry and watch him tear the unit apart with str and auto hit

Kayosiv
21-08-2009, 21:35
Yes, I do understand mathematics, thank you, I already showed you where you'd gone wrong, that's why I was able to correct you ;)

And any Lizardmen player who has the slightest clue as to what he's doing will indeed choose hand weapon and shield.

You still ended up losing your Dragon and Lord, which is exactly what I said would happen. And we're talking about whether you'd voluntarily charge a Vampire Lord on Dragon into the Slann bunker- not whether it'd be a better choice than getting double-charged as a result of being hit by the Anvil of Doom.

Pretty damn obviously! :wtf:

You're just coming off as an enormous prick.

PARTYCHICORITA
22-08-2009, 12:15
I've never understood why people take dreadlance; it's an expensive as hell item which can be easly replace for eternal hatred (which i believe would also affect the dragon on the charge) for less than half the points.

EvC
22-08-2009, 16:18
You're just coming off as an enormous prick.

I often do when people give bad advice, like telling people it's a good idea to charge the front of a Temple Guard Slann bunker, based on faulty maths and the results of a bizarre team game (where you didn't even achieve the desired result anyway!!).

The fact you resort to insulting me because I'm trying to stop you from giving bad tactical advice in a tactics thread just shows you have no class at all. All I was looking for was, "Ok, maybe it's not such a great idea after all" or some other reason why it would work for you when it has no reason to ever work in an actual game... if you can't do that, no need to resort to name-calling.

wingedserpant
22-08-2009, 18:48
Charging a zombie dragon into a unit with two vargulfs would break it. Wouldn't put that into temple guard though. You can get victory points elsewhere.

The dreadlance and red fury is awesome.

Kayosiv
22-08-2009, 22:25
Yes, I do understand mathematics, thank you

And any Lizardmen player who has the slightest clue as to what he's doing will indeed choose hand weapon and shield.

You still ended up losing your Dragon and Lord, which is exactly what I said would happen.

Pretty damn obviously! :wtf:



The fact you resort to insulting me because I'm trying to stop you from giving bad tactical advice in a tactics thread just shows you have no class at all.

Yep, no class, at all.

Either way, I never said it was a good idea to charge a Slann Temple Guard bunker from the front. I simply said "Plus when you charge a unit of temple guard with Slann from the front and take it down through sheer awesome, you probably don't care if your dragon goes stupid next turn." Did I say "Everyone should attack the Slann TG bunker from the front because you'll always win!" Nope, because I meant it as a lighthearted metaphor. It's never a good idea to charge anything from the front, always charge it from the rear, I mean duh! :)

A Slann Bunker of TG was just the hardest thing I could think off to charge from the front at the time; I could have said "A Hammerer Unit with Dwarf Lord in the front" or simply "Your vampire will be able to do awesome things in combat and the increased ward save will be extremely valuable to him" and it would have meant the same thing. You're just taking it all WAY to literally. The whole "I gotta ream this guy before he poisons the minds of thousands of VC players who think zombie dragons and vampires can do anything!!!" is just misplaced here.

Yes, a 4+ Ward save will likely not guarantee you to win against a ranked temple guard/slann unit. It will not even increase the likelihood of victory to a high one, but it'd help. You're not going to deny that are you?

Ultimate Life Form
22-08-2009, 22:29
Ah, learn a new English word every day. I'm really happy how my vocabulary increases every time I visit Warseer.:rolleyes:

Seriously, calm down guys. I appreciate all input, and don't you worry, I've been running my own Temple Guard long enough to never charge one in the front...:angel:

Kayosiv
22-08-2009, 22:49
Seriously, calm down guys. I appreciate all input, and don't you worry, I've been running my own Temple Guard long enough to never charge one in the front...:angel:

=)

I'm pretty calm, and also on another note, am quite frankly a bad player, or at least a very inexperienced one. Take any advice with a grain of salt, but the rudeness exuding from EvC seems excessive.

To give the best advice I can, and what I've had the most success with;
Use a flying vampire, with heavy armor and either a great weapon or 2 hand weapons (depending on what army you face, for example, always take 2 HW vs elves). Start him in a unit of skeletons (or whatever) and march up on turn 1. On turn 2, Fly him out of the unit at the enemies artillery or any lone casters. If this charge is successful, THEN fly your dragon out into the field, ready to charge something. Your opponent's war machine crew/wizard likely won't be able to live through 3 strength 7 or 4 strength 5 attacks at weapon skill 6, and even if they do, they odds that they will beat the vampire in combat are pretty dang slim. Since this lone flying vampire is prone to shooting, you can give him the wristbands of black gold, or what I prefer, the Crown of the Damned (like I said usually give my lord the Flayed Hauberk, although this does give him a rather weak armor save).

Another possibility is to wait until turn 3 to make your charges, and instead of declaring a charge on turn 2, fly the lone vampire out of the unit and set up a charge on the archers/war machine/mage's flank, so if you defeat and break 1 unit, you can overrun into a second one. This not only protects the lone vampire from shooting, it also prevents him from having to take a stupidity test if he starts your turn already in combat, AND disables more of your opponents shooting, although you do have to waste a turn to do this and there's no guarantee the vampire will live an entire turn to make the charge on turn 3. If you do this stratagy, I highly recommend the 3+ ward save against shooting instead though.

Worst case scenario though, you lose a 150 points vampire, but he occupies the entirety of your opponents shooting/magic for a turn.

I've done this several times with mixed results, but it always takes most/all shooting my opponent has to kill the lone flying vampire so I think it's worth it in at least that regard.

Other possible builds that can save some points are to give the lone vampire the Talisman of Lycni instead of flight (will save you 20 points) and some close combat powers like infinite hatred to help him kill those war machine crews.

Ultimate Life Form
01-09-2009, 20:31
Thanks again for everyone's input.:)

I went with this configuration because it instantly appealed to me:



lvl 3 upgrade
Blood Drinker
Flayed Hauberk
Wristbands of Black Gold
Eternal Hatred
Red Fury
Walking Death or Beguile

(I chose Beguile)

Well, turns out he was worth every single point. Amazing things he did included:

-surviving a salvo of Lethal Shots from pesky waywatchers to wipe them out in return
-casting lots of Undead Hordes and Winds of Undeath that ripped through the Wood Elves like nothing
-destroying a unit of Dryads on his own
-make Wild Riders turn tail after turning the Stag into mincemeat beneath the general's butt

-shredding a High Elf Mage after dispeling his Sword of Rhuin (I even got to attack first because of my trusty Bale Cart:D) and dicing his pet Dragon on the run
-surviving a direct hit from 2 Eagle Claws and approx 30 more arrows
-wiping out said Eagle Claws and coincidentally panicking his General caster guy's unit with Terror
-summoning a protective Undead Horde to save a fellow Vampire from certain death by charge of a Chariot
-and, last but not least, wiping out the General and his unit of Archers.:D

And all this without breaking a sweat! It was amazing! I'm really happy now because the guy whose High Elves I was playing against is a tournament player and he usually stomps me into the ground (massacre by turn 4 or something). This time around, however, I was able to score a minor victory which denotes the SECOND time I was ever able to beat him.

Great job! Thank you all ever so much! I'm sure to try some of the other proposed builds as well in time!:)

Kalec
02-09-2009, 02:23
The obvious follow-up question to this success is: what powers/items you did not get any use out of, and which did pull their weight?

Gosuryne
02-09-2009, 06:23
There is no reason to ever take dreadlance on a zombie dragon. Infinite Hatred transfers "Hatred" to the Zombie dragon. With rerolls and hitting on most likely 3s and wounding on 2s will be enough to make Red Fury worth it.

Next... some of the item selections above are pretty bad...Nightshroud no, people will always target the zombie dragon so it is useless. Crown of the damned no... stupidity fail = sitting duck and no casting. Save the crown for the Dread Knight variations that can sit safe in a unit even if they fail the stupidity.

Walach is too overpriced for a 4+ armor 5+ Ward save... that will not be enough to get through the day.

Blood drinker is nice but its still S5 attacks... not good against heavy armored foes or high toughness targets like stegadons, giants, hydras... etc.

Balefire Spike. Cheap. Magical flaming attacks +2 str on the charge.

For a good armor save the only option is the Flayed Hauberk for the 2+ Armor save. Wristbands of Black gold is another good 3+ ward save vs all types of ranged attacks, magical or otherwise.

Lastly, you can fit the Book of Arkhan for the bound Vanhel's...

Vampire Lord
+Magic Level
+Infinite Hatred
+Redfury
+Walking Death or Beguile
+Balefire Spike
+Book of Arkhan
+Wristbands of Black gold
+Flayed Hauberk
+Zombie Dragon

Ultimate Life Form
02-09-2009, 08:27
The obvious follow-up question to this success is: what powers/items you did not get any use out of, and which did pull their weight?

Well, ironically, the only thing that did not pull its weight was the Zombie Dragon itself (:wtf:) beacause its breath weapon did next to nothing and it got challenged all the time, but the General alone was mean enough to get full overkill out of it, usually causing 7 wounds with all his rerolls.

I think I will downgrade it to Abyssal Terror and use the leftover points to buy another Vampire as was suggested by several people the Dragon is better at 3K+ games I think.

Kayosiv
02-09-2009, 09:57
Try to charge from the flank/rear or if they are one of those players who puts their champions on the side of the front rank, charge the other side.

Dragon's can fight in challanges you know, or do you just mean that with the lord's general awesomeness the dragon's attacks in the challenge weren't needed?

I too have found that pestilent breath is MUCH worse than a strength 4 breath weapon. It struggles to wound even the lowliest of troops.

Kalec
02-09-2009, 15:58
The dragon is much more survivable then the terror, which is it's big draw. Against WE and HE it wouldn't be needed since the lord is powerful enough, but against more durable opponents the superior combat ability of the dragon shines through.