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carltmc
16-08-2009, 18:39
My close relation, idiot that he is, has an Assault squad with a guy with a powerfist AND a guy with a Power sword. When I told him that this doesn't work, as the sargeant is the only one who can take those 2.

He, in his usual dumbassery, claims that as long as he pays the points for the weapon, he can take it.

I know that's not the rule, and I know having both a Power sword and a Powerfist in the same squad is overpowered.

He claims because he has a custom chapter, he can change that rule as a special thing for his chapter...


I don't really know what sort of advice I'm looking for, but i'd like some.

Has anyone else dealt with players like this?

I'm definitely sure his setup is illegal. I've never played against marines, but I'm pretty sure it's overpowered. How do I deal with this?

Oberon
16-08-2009, 18:42
Show him the unit entry: Vanguard Veterans?

Grimtuff
16-08-2009, 18:46
Are you 100% sure he is playing standard codex SM's? As this is a legal setup for both Space Wolves and possibly Black Templars.

If not, simply ask him where it says he CAN do this in his codex. if he refuses then just pack up and leave. Some players are just not worth the effort.

EDIT: Yes, forgot about Vanguard.

carltmc
16-08-2009, 18:51
Thanks, guys. Sorry 'bout the rant. I get pretty angry when it comes to the rules.

Scorcher505
16-08-2009, 20:48
You could tell him that Blood Angel assault vets can do this, and vangard vets can, but you cannot change rules quite like that. The Blood Angel codex is free to dl and I bet he already has the regular marine dex

Templar_Seer
16-08-2009, 22:23
Are you 100% sure he is playing standard codex SM's? As this is a legal setup for both Space Wolves and possibly Black Templars.


Templar don't get to do it. Just refuse to play him until he sorts it out. No point having this overpowered, illegal thing if u dont play with it. Also, being able to have a PF and a PW in the same squad is the theme for his custom chapter?

IAMNOTHERE
16-08-2009, 22:30
No problem, just equip all your guys in the squad with power weapons and pay the points. He'll get the message in the end.

Wicksy
16-08-2009, 22:35
No problem, just equip all your guys in the squad with power weapons and pay the points. He'll get the message in the end.

THAT would be a scary unit to face...especially a large unit of orcs or IG :D

McMullet
16-08-2009, 22:39
Better still, equip a squad of Ork Boyz with Necron Warscythes. It's fine, if you pay the points!

Seriously: Is he doing this to max out on UBERKILL DEATH HANDS AND SPACE KILL KNIVES WIN WIN WIN or just because it looks cool, fits with the background of his chapter, etc.? If the latter, it's not against the spirit of 40K in general. It's fine to make up the odd rule here and there, for games with friends. The rules are a long, long way from a perfect, balanced tactical wargame already, so a little nudge like what you're describing changes little. Make clear to him the distinction between friendly games, where it's OK to bend the rules to add some "flavour" by writing your own army lists, changing terrain rules, creating scenarios and so on, and pick-up/tournament games, where everyone has to play by the rules that are written in the book.

If he's just doing it to win, skip most of the above and just explain that he has to play by the book, or not at all (preferably the latter).

JHZ
16-08-2009, 22:57
Black on white. Always black on white. When ever we have someone talking all high and mighty on anything, they get told to show black on white where it says that it works that way. The moment he shows a black on white rule by GW that gives him the right to do as he wishes, then he can do as he wishes, and not a moment sooner. If such statement is not shown, we play with the rules present, which do not give him the right to do what he wishes.

So just imagine what a game between two such persons looks like, expecially when a new rulebook or codex has come out and the rules are a little hazy to both, leading each one of them to question every other move the other player does.

e2055261
17-08-2009, 06:25
Yeah well my ig regiment comes with a leman russ battle tank with every sqaud of guardsmen.

Born Again
17-08-2009, 06:31
. I've never played against marines

:eek: How is this possible? Where is this haven of players with non-marine armies you speak of? Praise the Emperor such a place exists! :p

Actually I don't have a problem with marines, it's just highly unusual, that's all.


No problem, just equip all your guys in the squad with power weapons and pay the points. He'll get the message in the end.

Yup. I vote this one. Take mobs of 30 ork boyz all armed with power klaws. Doesn't he know they're from a special tribe that can do that?

IrishDelinquent
17-08-2009, 06:38
From what I've read from the codex, he was actually fully allowed to do this.

Assault marines

The sergeant may replace his bolt pistol and/or chainsword with: (...) Power Sword - 15 points, Powerfist - 25 points.

From my reading, having a sergeant with powerfist and power weapon is legal...stupid, but legal.

EDIT: Oh, you mean two different models! Yeah, then your friend is an idiot.

PS: My Tyranids all have Synapse, Rending Claws, and my Gaunts are Monstrous Creatures :p

Brother Alexos
17-08-2009, 06:41
You know, you should make your army homegrown and make an unstoppable unit and show him his dumbassery. As I say " The only cure for ignorance is knowledge, the only way to gather knowledge is from first-hand experience, and that is an act of nature."

BrotherMoses
17-08-2009, 07:25
Any Lysander puns here? No, good.

havoc626
17-08-2009, 08:56
Just to ask, what army do you play? Might help us get the point across to your stubborn mate.

mughi3
17-08-2009, 09:50
Stubborn Player problem.

So his leadership is un-modifiable, hope he doesn't have rights of battle on top of that.
:D


...sorry couldn't resist.


have him show you in the codex for the unit in question where he can take that loadout. i believe the entry says something like the sarg may exchange his bolter or CC weapon for one of the following.

Corrode
17-08-2009, 11:43
So his leadership is un-modifiable, hope he doesn't have rights of battle on top of that.
:D


...sorry couldn't resist.


have him show you in the codex for the unit in question where he can take that loadout. i believe the entry says something like the sarg may exchange his bolter or CC weapon for one of the following.

'Bolt pistol and/or chainsword' which means that you could in fact take two powerfists on the sergeant. The issue, as has already been pointed out, isn't that the Sergeant has multiple special weapons - it's that this fellow is running a squad with one model with a power fist and one model with a power sword, which is illegal.

Panzerkanzler
17-08-2009, 13:28
Meh...just kick the dumb ass in the nuts. If THAT doesn't work then he's a hopeless case. I once kicked my plush teddy bear in the balls and after that he could play chess and write my exams for me. True story.

Gazak Blacktoof
17-08-2009, 17:43
I once kicked my plush teddy bear in the balls

:eyebrows: Anatomically inappropriate for a child's toy.

As other people have said you either need to convince him that he needs an appropriate rule, agree to play with his made up rules or simply walk away.

Shatter
17-08-2009, 17:49
Simple solution: Show him Vanguard Vets. If that doesn't work, the next time you fight him--

If you're orks, pay for powerklaws on everything
If you're marines, give everything Assault cannons or Plasma, and watch the world turn into a puddle of gore.
If you're Chaos, give your Noise Marines Lash of Submission, and start blasting away while keeping that pesky second Power Weapon out of range. Or use more than one Mark? :P

And so on, and so forth. People can be silly sometimes, other times they're just trying to bend the rules. I once had a player who INSISTED that he did his WBBs right before my assault, and I just proceeded with the assault without acknowledging him, and told him the correct ruling. Occasionally, odd things like that come up, but most people are pretty understanding. From what you've said, explaining doesn't work, so either showing him a taste of his own medicine, or just flat out refusing to play him should work.

Corrode
17-08-2009, 17:57
:eyebrows: Anatomically inappropriate for a child's toy.

Haven't you ever seen the Bad Taste Bears? :D

TheEndIsHere
17-08-2009, 18:50
Take a nightbringer model (or borrow froma necron friend) Blue tact assault marine backpack and say it cost 360pts+cost for jumppack on a spacemarine commander.

Add you your army as HQ choice. (you payed the points)

If possible, add a shadow field (from dark eldar, 2+ invulnerable save until you fail it and buy Warptime (chaos psychic power)). Add scything talons and a barbes strangeler.

Win

D-End

Netfreakk
17-08-2009, 19:01
To the OP:

This person is your friend so you should just explain to him the correct rules and also ask him to show you the codex where he is allowed to do the two separate models with powerfist and power weapon. Explain to him that making your own chapter doesn't allow you to make up rules, but allows you to make a fun themed army using the rules in a codex.

Shatter
17-08-2009, 19:21
To the OP:

This person is your friend so you should just explain to him the correct rules and also ask him to show you the codex where he is allowed to do the two separate models with powerfist and power weapon. Explain to him that making your own chapter doesn't allow you to make up rules, but allows you to make a fun themed army using the rules in a codex.

+1, unless you're homebrewing things--an extra power weapon being the only change is the exception, of course--it seems like a powergaming move. If explanation doesn't work, then...well, yeah. :P

Grand Master Raziel
17-08-2009, 19:34
Just as a point of clarification, one of those models isn't a Chaplain or a Captain or something, is he? I ask because having an IC with a jump pack join an Assault Squad is legal, and can be the bearer of that second special CCW. Also, Chaplains accompanying Assault Squads are a fairly common combo among SM players.

Shatter
17-08-2009, 19:36
Likely not, the OP stated that his relation passed it off as a change through a custom chapter, and that since he paid the points, he was allowed. If he was using a Chaplain, there'd be no reason for rule-bending.

marv335
17-08-2009, 19:38
I have a Kustom Ork Klan.
All my powerklaws go at I2 Because they're painted red.

;)

Glabro
17-08-2009, 20:36
Yup. I vote this one. Take mobs of 30 ork boyz all armed with power klaws. Doesn't he know they're from a special tribe that can do that?

And you'd pay 930 points for such a squad?

dariakus
17-08-2009, 20:40
I have a Kustom Ork Klan.
All my powerklaws go at I2 Because they're painted red.

;)

This is the best idea in the thread.

Lord Merlin
17-08-2009, 21:51
Simple. Show him the rules. If he still disputes them get third party corroboration that you're correct. After that field an entire guard platoon armed with grenade launchers.

JHZ
17-08-2009, 22:13
After that field an entire guard platoon armed with grenade launchers.
Even better, 6 Tactical Marine squads with missile launcher (hey, I paid the price the codex gave it: free). That's 54 BS4 missile launchers.

Fire Harte
18-08-2009, 00:34
You know I think JHZ has it. :D

Eldartank
18-08-2009, 03:18
Just play a Space Marine army using those "Movie Marine" rules from that White Dwarf article. You know, the one where your 1500 point army of 6 Space Marines can trash any 3000 point army without any effort.... ;)

isaac
18-08-2009, 07:28
Even better, 6 Tactical Marine squads with missile launcher (hey, I paid the price the codex gave it: free). That's 54 BS4 missile launchers.

Wow, just wow.

havoc626
22-08-2009, 03:55
Play an IG army that takes Leman russ battle tanks that have 3 side sponson plasma cannos each.

So long as you payed the points.

Stronginthearm
22-08-2009, 04:51
With most of these responses I jsut have to laugh but in all seriousness, if you are trying to get a point across instead of just going for humorous revenge, point it out in a firm polite and succint way and if he still ignores you THEN you taken the entire army of Avatars and say its from the craftworld of Olympus :)

wartorngetahroun74
22-08-2009, 08:23
I used to have a friend insist that twin linked weapons did not allow a reroll, but instead meant that the weapon could fire each barrel. It took me 8 years to convince him otherwise. Now we play each other again.

Lothlanathorian
22-08-2009, 08:44
8 years? Wow. That is like, two whole Editions he played wrong. And how were you the only person that ever tried to correct him? That is...wow. 8 years?

And I like the red Powerklaw idea lol.

OP, what army do you play?

Commander Zane
22-08-2009, 16:41
My close relation, idiot that he is, has an Assault squad with a guy with a powerfist AND a guy with a Power sword. When I told him that this doesn't work, as the sargeant is the only one who can take those 2.

He, in his usual dumbassery, claims that as long as he pays the points for the weapon, he can take it.

I know that's not the rule, and I know having both a Power sword and a Powerfist in the same squad is overpowered.

He claims because he has a custom chapter, he can change that rule as a special thing for his chapter...


I don't really know what sort of advice I'm looking for, but i'd like some.

Has anyone else dealt with players like this?

I'm definitely sure his setup is illegal. I've never played against marines, but I'm pretty sure it's overpowered. How do I deal with this?


it might be a custom chapter but they all follow the same rules, a friend of mine done that, and half way through the battle i asked him about one of squads and he told me what it had so i showed him the codex and he managed to swap the weapons about, on the upside he does better with his new weapons out fit

jlmb_123
22-08-2009, 17:34
If it's a custom chapter, point out to him that he needs to justify it. Fantasy wargaming places great emphasis on putting a great amount of effort into your work, and generally speaking the greater the effort the better received it is by the community at large. I think the greater attention well painted and converted miniatures get in forums over, for example, 'stock' models painted to a reasonable standard is indicative of this. I'd be inclined to ask him to produce something detailing his chapter i.e. a written story or Index Astartes type article. Background 'fluff' is just as important to the game as the rules and miniatures, as anybody who owns a GW rulebook will notice. Lots of people write up a story for their army to give it extra character. If he can't do that, then his claim of a customised army list is a rather weak excuse for misappropriating the rules. If he can justify it well in his own 'fluff' then I'd say it's more acceptable. However, saying that his Space Marines use extra weapons because they've realised it makes it easier to win is barefaced cheek: we know that, as do the games' designers, and that's why they don't allow it in their system.

If he persists, it'll probably be better to not play with him if he's ruining your enjoyment of your hobby. After all, you'd have to be a bit of a masochist to spend a fair amount of your time and cash, not to mention your imagination and gratification at what you're doing, to actually want the final point of your effort to be a frustration.

Now I'm off to glue Raveners to my Land Raider...

Dark Primus
22-08-2009, 19:02
My close relation, idiot that he is, has an Assault squad with a guy with a powerfist AND a guy with a Power sword. When I told him that this doesn't work, as the sargeant is the only one who can take those 2.

He, in his usual dumbassery, claims that as long as he pays the points for the weapon, he can take it.

I know that's not the rule, and I know having both a Power sword and a Powerfist in the same squad is overpowered.

He claims because he has a custom chapter, he can change that rule as a special thing for his chapter...


I don't really know what sort of advice I'm looking for, but i'd like some.

Has anyone else dealt with players like this?

I'm definitely sure his setup is illegal. I've never played against marines, but I'm pretty sure it's overpowered. How do I deal with this?



A week has gone by now, have you confronted him? Did you told him it was wrong? What was his reply?

pookie
23-08-2009, 17:24
Templar don't get to do it. Just refuse to play him until he sorts it out. No point having this overpowered, illegal thing if u dont play with it. Also, being able to have a PF and a PW in the same squad is the theme for his custom chapter?

Sword Brethern Sqauds;) tho agreed this aint a 'assault sqd' as Op mentions.