PDA

View Full Version : mathhammer on wounding a DE lord?

Shiodome
17-08-2009, 00:03
I hurt my head today, it got hurt trying to work out the odds of wounding a DE lord with a 1+ armour save, and a reverse ward save. so i guess i'm throwing it out as a challenge to the numerically advantaged:

what is the % chance of a str3/str4/str5 wound going unsaved?

Mozzamanx
17-08-2009, 00:06
S3: 1/2 x 1/6 x 1/2 = 1/24, or 4.2%
S4: 2/3 x 1/6 x 1/3 = 1/27, or 3.7%
S5: 5/6 x 1/3 x 1/6 = 5/108, or 4.6%

It's not very likely.

Shiodome
17-08-2009, 00:47
so to do 3 wounds i'd need 71 str3 hits or 65 str5 hits? (or 142/130 attacks respectively)?

Sarah S
17-08-2009, 01:17
Yeah, on average anyways. You don't think that's fair for a 35 point item?

giner
17-08-2009, 01:21
But, but, but... the Dark Elves need to protect their characters as they do not have toughness like Chaos Lords. Its not like Chaos Lords pay for it or are supposed to be the hardest lords is it? (sarcasm)

Shiodome
17-08-2009, 02:57
I just wanted to figure out a way to kill an opponents lord, who has frankly been taking the **** for a few games in my local store now (the lord taking the ****, not the player :P). Think my only option is arcane bodkins on bow of loren... but need to remove his unit first. Five Str3 shots, ignoring armour... almost has a chance!

Ixquic
17-08-2009, 03:31
Wight King with the Sword of Kings has a decent shot. Killing blow on a 5+ and only strength 4. It'll go through the 2+ save and "only" allow a 3+ ward which if the Lord fails will kill him.

Of course the item is outrageous and I have no idea how it passed the smell test but whatever.

Kerill
17-08-2009, 05:40
Numbers were rolled a while back. DE lord with pendant and reverse save is harder to kill than a great unclean one with trappings, treeman ancient with netlings or any other combination in warhammer.

Fechik
17-08-2009, 05:47
Saurus Old Blood with Blade of Realities = dead DE lord. may take a round or 2 but he WILL die.

Brother J
17-08-2009, 05:47
I really don't see a problem with it.. Generally the only time the Inverse Ward fails with me is when it is a roll of a 6.

There's other ways around crap like that. Low strength attacks the allow no armour saves, like...from spells..Lore of Shadows - Creeping Death is 3D6 S1 hits. Requiring 6's to wound the character, and allowing no armour saves. Go ahead...Roll a one for your ward....If you roll decently on the spell, you should/could knock the character out with one go of it. If not, a second attempt is most definitely viable as long as you're able to keep your wizard alive.

Kerill
17-08-2009, 05:53
I really don't see a problem with it.. Generally the only time the Inverse Ward fails with me is when it is a roll of a 6.

There's other ways around crap like that. Low strength attacks the allow no armour saves, like...from spells..Lore of Shadows - Creeping Death is 3D6 S1 hits. Requiring 6's to wound the character, and allowing no armour saves. Go ahead...Roll a one for your ward....If you roll decently on the spell, you should/could knock the character out with one go of it. If not, a second attempt is most definitely viable as long as you're able to keep your wizard alive.

And the DE lord is going to be on foot on his own and not in a unit? You can use buboes if the DE player is a fool and doesn't screen the unit with ring/pendant bearer. Not to mention the ring will be nearby so even creeping death on 2 dice has a high chance to miscast.

Brother J
17-08-2009, 06:01
Whether or not the DE lord is within a unit and alone really doesn't matter. He's looking for a way to kill it, and I gave one. No armour saves allowed works on Cold One Knights as well. (I've used it and haven't had a problem.)

I could have offered up the typical answer and told him to Infernal Gateway and pray for an 11 or 12 on the strength, but, I figured low strength no armour saves works a bit more efficiently.

Screen wise..Is it really that difficult to kill off enough harpies or dark riders to where you can see the guy? I mean..seriously now..

Rot, Glorious Rot works. Though, I tend to get low numbers on how many hits and the strength. I've gotten it off multiple times in a single battle before, and it's done well. Is it able to be dispelled? Sure. Is rolling doubles a risk you'll have to take? Absolutely...Would I suggest doing any magical oriented list without Infernal Puppet? NO.

fubukii
17-08-2009, 06:53
S3: 1/2 x 1/6 x 1/2 = 1/24, or 4.2%
S4: 2/3 x 1/6 x 1/3 = 1/27, or 3.7%
S5: 5/6 x 1/3 x 1/6 = 5/108, or 4.6%

It's not very likely.

thats including chance to wound which makes the numbers a bit wierd.

Chance of str 3 wound to go through his save is 1/6 3/6 = 4/36 = 1/9 chance
str 4 wound - 1/12
str 5 1/12
str 6 1/9
str 7 13%
str 8 16%
now thats assuming the hit already wounded

IIf you include chance to wound lets do a str 3 hit vs something like a chaos lord or a oldblood
1/6 x 1/6 x 2/6 = 4/216 = 1/54 = 1.8% chance but yes lets complain about the pendant :) even though your twice as likely to wound him then a chaos lord/oldblood. Now is the pendant powerful sure, but people make it out to be worse then it is. Its mostly OPED vs str 5+ attacks (generally monsters who are abused in the current metagame so its nice to have a counter) or ignore armor save weapons like cannons which dont usually hit your lord anyway.

Sarah S
17-08-2009, 06:57
thats including chance to wound which makes the numbers a bit wierd.
Of course he's including the chance to wound, because the chance to wound changes with the different strength values.

1/6 x 1/6 x 2/6
What numbers are those?

1/6 wound, then 1/6 past armour save, but nothing has a 3+ Ward save.

It would be 1/6 x 1/6 x 2/3 (since neither Chaos Lords or Oldbloods can get a 4+ Ward Save, being limited to 5+ instead).

You did however arrive at the correct result... Somehow.
1/54

But lets look at the S5 attack.

1/2 wound, 2/3 past save, 2/3 past ward save.

That's 4/18 or a 22% chance to get hurt. That's compared to the Elf's 4.6%. The damn Pendant Elf is almost 5 times as durable.

To look at it another way, an average of 1/5 S5 hits will inflict a wound on a Chaos Lord or Saurus Oldblood. On the other hand, an average of 1/21 S5 hits will inflict a wound on a Pendant Lord. WTF.

Gaargod
17-08-2009, 14:31
Let's take a very survivable oldblood, for the sake of argument (not that it normally would be, but nvm) - shield, light armour, cold one, glyph necklace = 0+ armour, 5+ ward, T5 (probably with blade of revered tzunki for S6 ignore AS).

Against S3 attacks, the harder lord's toughness is very useful, as is their high armour saves. So both the pendent elf and oldblood are survivable (fine, they're expensive lords after all).

DE: 1/2 to wound, 1/6 for armour, 1/2 for ward = 1/24 = 4.2%
Oldblood: 1/6 to wound, 1/6 for armour, 2/3 for ward = 1/54 = 1.9%

At S5 however

DE: 5/6 wound, 1/3 for armour, 1/6 for ward = 5/108 = 4.6%
Oldblood: 1/2 wound, 1/6 for armour, 2/3 for ward = 1/18 = 5.6%

At S7

DE: 5/6 wound, 2/3 for armour, 1/6 for ward = 10/108 = 9.3%
Oldblood: 5/6 wound, 1/2 armour, 2/3 ward = 10/36 = 27.8%

Now that is irritating - the chance of wounding the elf at S5 is almost identical to S3. But even at S7, which reduces most things to paste in short order - even the super survivable oldblood has over a 1/4 chance to take a wound - its still less a 1/10 chance to wound it.

And that is of course not counting Armour of Eternal Servitude - regeneration at, for some weird reason, 15pts less than everyone else. Ok, it can't then ride a dragon and still have a 1+ armour save, but the DE can on a cold one. At which stage, reduce all the odds by half.

In other words, don't hit the lord. If he's on a dragon, kill the dragon (no mean feat in itself), win on combat res and run it down. If he's not, pray you have enough static combat res.

EndlessBug
17-08-2009, 16:31
I could bash out the stats and repeat what's been said but the long and short of it is: You're not going to kill him by hitting him.

shoot the crap out of his BG or CoK unit (whichever he's in). Kill him on combat res like you would most lords. Who cares about pendant statistics then.

I'd much rather take a Dread with Executioners axe (have done for a long while). Now that's combat res producing nastyness. The sick thing with this is that if he accepts the challenge with the champ you smash him into 7 combat res (1 wound +6 overkill), if he accepts with a lord you're likely to kill him and some (min 3 combat res), he declines you push hs fighty char to the back and go to town on the unit. If an assassin pops up you get rid of his hatred by challenging with unit champ 1st round then you smash him into hell on the 2nd round (if he hasn't fled).

Condottiere
17-08-2009, 16:45
Defeating him by CR seems the most viable option, but finding something that can catch and tie him up looks difficult.

swarmofseals
17-08-2009, 16:54
1+ save with reverse ward isn't even as bad as it gets. You easily could be facing a 1+ save, reverse ward AND regeneration! Lord on Cold One w/ Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Armor of Eternal Servitude and Pendant of Khaeleth. And you still have 30 points left over for something else if you want =P

Pathosis
17-08-2009, 17:11
I'd rather play against a delf army with the tanklord than drakenhoff graveguard :)

Marshal Torrick
17-08-2009, 17:16
What about low strength KB? There's Str3(on a turn they don't charge, making it tricky) Wardancers, and I thought the Scraplauncher was Str2 KB, but you'll only get one hit on the Lord, so that's not really doable.

Condottiere
17-08-2009, 17:31
You want two things, lots of opportunities to hit and ASF.

fubukii
17-08-2009, 18:44
my bad it was very late when i did that math hehe.

1/6 1/6 4/6 6/216 2.7% my mistake.

But still like i said its not as bad as people make it out to be. Its only insane vs high str attacks as i stated and agree with

now vs str 5 the same chaos lord (who can easily get a 0+ save)
but will go with 1+
3/6 2/6 4/6 - 4.1% so about the same

- the pendant is oped i agree, but only vs high strength attacks.

N810
17-08-2009, 18:59
Sounds like a skink chief with the killing blow dagger has a better chance of taking him out than a kitted out oldblood.

Kerill
17-08-2009, 20:03
my bad it was very late when i did that math hehe.

1/6 1/6 4/6 6/216 2.7% my mistake.

But still like i said its not as bad as people make it out to be. Its only insane vs high str attacks as i stated and agree with

now vs str 5 the same chaos lord (who can easily get a 0+ save)
but will go with 1+
3/6 2/6 4/6 - 4.1% so about the same

- the pendant is oped i agree, but only vs high strength attacks.

The DE lord doesn't even have a GW to go with his ASF? Seems rather disingenuous. I also believe he gets hatred first round:
3/4*.666*.5= 25% chance per attack of wounding. Even if we boost the chaos lord to a -1+ save with enchanted shield on a jugger its 8.3 %- so still more than twice the chance of wounding.

Shiodome
17-08-2009, 20:12
well my issue is, the guy is in a unit of black guard. ok, i can already see you queueing up to say "avoid him? lol!", well fine... i avoid everything anyway, wood elves remember? but this time i want to take the little bugger OUT!

Anyway, combat res won't work.

LKHERO
17-08-2009, 20:14
Beat the Lord by combat res or isolate him and kill him.

There is no other way, everything else is just a waste of time and resources.

theunwantedbeing
17-08-2009, 20:26
well my issue is, the guy is in a unit of black guard. ok, i can already see you queueing up to say "avoid him? lol!", well fine... i avoid everything anyway, wood elves remember. but this time i want to take the little bugger OUT!

Anyway, combat res won't work.

Magic?
Well the champion probably has the ring of hotek, that and Wood Elves dont have a great deal of overly useful offensive magic available to them.

Combat?
ASF probably, so you'll lose before getting to strike (the amber pendant is the exception, same for treemen and treekin). Breaking them is nigh impossible due to stubborn ld9.

Shooting?
See this is where Wood Elves excel.
Glade guard can easily gun them down quickly enough, strangleroot works well to kill them in swathes. Simialrly waywatchers and a lord with the bow of loren and arcane bodkins will drop the guy in short order.

2 treemen is a good way to make a mess of that unit.
Sure your not very quick at mv5, but you can easily be 10" across the board after turn 1 and they'll stand upto most things he throws at you.
Plus your opponent cannot flee if he's in black guard, and you can always give baiting him nearer you a go, he has to persue a fleeing enemy afterall.

Lots of glade guard is a must have, as their shooting can decimate a DE list. There's not a big risk of chillwind as well, as he's got a lord so your looking at 3 of them at best, plus with the treemen he'll be more likely to go for the lore of fire or metal.

A Pagent of Shrikes is a good way to drop any ring bearering black guard champion. 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, then a 6+ save to stop him dying.
The Muster of Malovelents is also useful for killing a few models.

The wraithstone is useful for helping to get him to break, similarly combined with the Callach's claw magical weapon you can get those ld9 black guard to ld7, which helps make them break.

So there are several ways of getting rid of the guy.
The easiest being shoot at his unit untill it dies.
Taking 2 Treemen will help draw the fire needed to let you do that.

O&G'sRule
17-08-2009, 20:28
goblin warboss with tricksey trinket (no ward saves) and wallopas 1 hit wunda (S10) gets the job done more often than not for 90 points stand him next to a black orc big boss with shagas screaming sword just to make sure if you like

LKHERO
17-08-2009, 20:31
Plus your opponent cannot flee if he's in black guard, and you can always give baiting him nearer you a go, he has to persue a fleeing enemy afterall.

So what if the unkillable Dreadlord challenges the tree, negates damage, and the entire unit doesn't flee because they're stubborn + Immune to psychology.

theunwantedbeing
17-08-2009, 20:43
So what if the unkillable Dreadlord challenges the tree, negates damage, and the entire unit doesn't flee because they're stubborn + Immune to psychology.

Treemen aren't elligible to be challenged.
The treemen are going to be going for the black guard anyway, they'll easily kill 3-5 of them a turn each. Soon enough they'll be outnumbering and the Lord won't have his immune to psychology black guard to save him from auto-breaking and he'll run.

I've done this with my own DE chariots.
Charge in, shred the black guard, win combat. Lord takes his break test on double 1, fails. Re-rolls due to the nearby battle standard bearer, fails again (it doesnt help much when you need a double 1) the chariots run down the lord.

The baiting I was on about was throwing a unit into those black guard, losing combat then breaking from combat. Dragging the black guard unit nearer your own lines.
They have hatred so are forced to persue, so in you turn, you can move them 2d6" nearer the troops you want them to be near, and he can't do anything about it.
The difficult issue is that most of the troops that are fast enough to reach him are going to get killed completely due to how flimsy they are..so no persuit that you wanted. So you may need a bit of luck to have men living at the end of the combat.

Shiodome
17-08-2009, 21:02
goblin warboss with tricksey trinket (no ward saves) and wallopas 1 hit wunda (S10) gets the job done more often than not for 90 points stand him next to a black orc big boss with shagas screaming sword just to make sure if you like

you've been a hell of a lot luckier than me then... he's only ws4, i tend not to hit very often.

Maoriboy007
17-08-2009, 21:12
I'd rather play against a delf army with the tanklord than drakenhoff graveguard :)

Riiiiiiight, because the tanklord won't be in a unit of ASF black guard with Ring of Hotek hiding an assassin in it. Guess which one wins out of those two, anyone want to mathhammer the odds on that one? Assasin KBs the BSB and the lord wipes out the rest of the unit.

Maoriboy007
17-08-2009, 21:14
I've done this with my own DE chariots.
Charge in, shred the black guard, win combat. Lord takes his break test on double 1, fails. Re-rolls due to the nearby battle standard bearer, fails again (it doesnt help much when you need a double 1) the chariots run down the lord..

Unfortunatly an assassin with a tiny piece of metal with a blob of goop on it can make chariots explode, BG can easily be made invulnerable to chariot charges.

fubukii
17-08-2009, 21:36
The DE lord doesn't even have a GW to go with his ASF? Seems rather disingenuous. I also believe he gets hatred first round:
3/4*.666*.5= 25% chance per attack of wounding. Even if we boost the chaos lord to a -1+ save with enchanted shield on a jugger its 8.3 %- so still more than twice the chance of wounding.

this was just a chance to wound the models with various strengths not vs each other. in a 1v1 i would give it to the elf obviously due to the setup of Gw asf potion of str pendant being insanely effective vs chars. Now granted the chaos lord is much better at killing rank and file models with his more attacks and a higher str usually. (a khorne lord will get 6+ atks and his mount gets at least 2)

Now i admit de lords on cold ones are durable indeed to say the least, but most people run them on a dark steed, or on foot instead. i suppose you can give the foot model the armor of darkness but i prefer that on my bsb.

now just remember im not disagreeing that pendant is not a powerful item to say the least, just saying that dreadlords arent as killy as other lords. They are great at surviving, and putting out decent dmg.

LKHERO
17-08-2009, 21:41
Treemen aren't elligible to be challenged.
The treemen are going to be going for the black guard anyway, they'll easily kill 3-5 of them a turn each. Soon enough they'll be outnumbering and the Lord won't have his immune to psychology black guard to save him from auto-breaking and he'll run.

What if they get counter-charged by Hydra?

fubukii
17-08-2009, 21:54
well sure if we have a solo treeman vs a black guard unit and a hydra he will lose, but 1v1 a treeman should be a hydra over a couple rounds of combat.

but in a real situation theres always a hydra nearby in a dark elf force :)

theunwantedbeing
17-08-2009, 21:54
Unfortunatly an assassin with a tiny piece of metal with a blob of goop on it can make chariots explode, BG can easily be made invulnerable to chariot charges.

He costs an extra 145pts, and that trick only works on t5 chariots.
Add to that I said ChariotS as in more than one of them, your assasin with his chariot exploder death stars can only kill one of the chariots about to slam into his unit.

What if they get counter-charged by Hydra?

Average Damage for the Hydra is as follows
Handlers, 4+ to hit (re-roll), 6 to wound, 4+ save, 5+ ward = 0.25 wounds
Hydra, 4+ to hit(re-roll), 5+ to wound, 5+ save, 5+ ward = 0.78 wounds
Handlers do 0.11 subsequent rounds, Hydra does only 0.51 wounds.

Treemen fight the Black guard some more.
3+ to hit, 2+ to kill = 2.78 kills per Treeman.
or they fight the Hydra
3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 4+ regen = 1.11 wounds

Hydra's don't worry treeman that much.
A Treeman will win against a Hydra in a 1 vs 1 fight.
9 rounds for the hydra to kill a Treeman, if he charges.
5 rounds for the treeman, doesnt matter if he charges or not.
A treeman will nearly beat 2 hydra's in a fight singlehandedly.

fubukii
17-08-2009, 22:41
as for the issue of fighting regening grave guard or black guard id take black guard anyday. the black guard are easy enough to kill with shooting and they dont come back every time i hurt them.

1 hail of doom arrow can kill half the bg unit, while you wont notice the dmg it does vs the graveguard.

graveguard are alot harder to kill
They can move twice.
can have asf as well
Come back.

Weemo
17-08-2009, 23:11
this mat have been mentioned before, unless in a challenge if there is a pendant elf in there just dont even try, i mean the chances of wounding are so slim any tactical thinker would go for the unit. its a bit like a dwarf lord, just accept it, you cant kill it. instead kill all the squishy stuff around it and watch is run for the hills.

Shiodome
17-08-2009, 23:13
the squishy stuff is ld9 stubborn with reroll.

sulla
18-08-2009, 01:07
Shooting?
See this is where Wood Elves excel.
Just about everything excells at shooting elite elven infantry blocks... Even ogre shooting.

Treemen aren't elligible to be challenged.
The treemen are going to be going for the black guard anyway, they'll easily kill 3-5 of them a turn each. Soon enough they'll be outnumbering and the Lord won't have his immune to psychology black guard to save him from auto-breaking and he'll run.

Tactics are not welcome on warseer. ;)

Kalec
18-08-2009, 01:31
Because the dark elf player is going to sit there are watch his black guard get ripped apart by treemen, right?

LKHERO
18-08-2009, 01:34
Because the dark elf player is going to sit there are watch his black guard get ripped apart by treemen, right?

Because the scenario here, and in every game in Warhammer is:

My 2 units vs. your 1 unit instead of the game in the big picture. At least that's what I noticed here at Warseer.

Pathosis
18-08-2009, 03:11
Because the scenario here, and in every game in Warhammer is:

My 2 units vs. your 1 unit instead of the game in the big picture. At least that's what I noticed here at Warseer.

People just like to complain.

Maoriboy007
18-08-2009, 03:48
as for the issue of fighting regening grave guard or black guard id take black guard anyday. the black guard are easy enough to kill with shooting and they dont come back every time i hurt them.

1 hail of doom arrow can kill half the bg unit, while you wont notice the dmg it does vs the graveguard.

graveguard are alot harder to kill
They can move twice.
can have asf as well
Come back.

Well if you're fighting ether of these units, you certainly wont be shooting at them.
In a competition between the two, I can tell you from experience that the BG will own the GG almost every time.

Almost always hit with high Initiative ASF.
Same str as GG.
BG can have the Ring of Hotek (pray you dont roll a double casting vanhels)
Hidden assasins with are perfect for killing pesky characters (Drakenhof BSB) or wiping out front ranks.

Things like raising and vanhels can be mitigated by magic defence, a black cauldron for example can be used to give the BG either ward saves or killing blow.

He costs an extra 145pts, and that trick only works on t5 chariots.
Add to that I said ChariotS as in more than one of them, your assasin with his chariot exploder death stars can only kill one of the chariots about to slam into his unit.

Most chariots (exceptions are Tiranoc and TK chariots) are T5 and cost the same if not more than an assasin. One less chariot is a huge bonus, many less BG killed. Also means need two chariots to ensure that even 1 arrives.

EndlessBug
18-08-2009, 08:50
I don't think the question is 'who would win in a fight, BG or GG?', the question is who would YOU like to face with YOUR army. I'd prefer to face the BG as they can be shot/magic(usually) to crap.

the squishy stuff is ld9 stubborn with reroll

But it still is squishy.

On the treeman debate, granted im not sure how many points a treeman is but the DE lord with a unit of BG is about 500 (11 BG and the lord + items). Treeman is more like 300ish no? So 2 treemen isn't such a ridiculous theory as the points costs are within 100.

Condottiere
18-08-2009, 12:57
People just like to complain.Especially if you happen to be at the losing end of the exchange.

theunwantedbeing
18-08-2009, 13:28
Most chariots (exceptions are Tiranoc and TK chariots) are T5 and cost the same if not more than an assasin. One less chariot is a huge bonus, many less BG killed. Also means need two chariots to ensure that even 1 arrives.

Chariots that are toughness 4.
High Elf Tironic
High Elf Lion
Goblin Wolf
Snotling Pump Wagon
Tomb King
Tzeentch Daemons
Slaanesh Daemons

Chariots that cost more than 145points
Nurgle/Khornate Marked Chaos Warrior Chariot
Scraplauncher
Black Coach

Note that
Dark Elf
Orc Boar
Chaos
Khornate Daemons
Beasts
Chariots are all under 145pts, most of which are actually cheaper than a naked asssasin who hasnt spent over 50pts to allow himself to make toughness 5+ chariots explode.

Other than saying you'll probably need to throw at least 2 chariots at a unit containing such an assasin (or any number infact, the entire unit can only stand and shoot at one of them) which I already stated in the quote.

Note that the Hidden Assasin has to be revealed at the start of any of the DE turns, or at the start of any close combat phase.
So you are guaranteed to know there is an assasin in the unit (and if he is armed with throwing stars or not as its mundane equiptment and it must be revealed) so there's not anything like the risk you seem to think there is.

@Sulla
Sorry...I tried hard not to post tactics but I failed again :(

fubukii
18-08-2009, 18:44
lets no forget to add the steam tank to that chariot list :P despite it doesnt explode a couple of throwing stars wont save you from the 5-6 d3 str 6 impact hits.

Don Zeko
18-08-2009, 20:34
Sure, the Pendant is obviously underpriced for what you get, but some of the comments in this thread are absurd. A tooled Lord in a Black Guard unit is about 600 points. Adding an Assassin with rending stars makes it 750. A hydra brings the total over 900, and a cauldron supporting it makes it over 1100. I would hope that a deathstar that expensive would be practically invincible, but the unit being described here will still die very easily to shooting, and will have difficulty responding to a flank charge, or being charged by chariots.

Learn to play the game, guys! The way to kill a DE lord is with combat resolution or fear/terror autobreaking, and he doesn't kill your guys nearly as effectively as a chaos lord or oldblood. Beyond that, the Pendant won't protect him from non-strength attacks. if you have Nurgle magic, or the blood statuette of spite, or pit of shades, you can get a much, much higher chance to taking him out.

Maoriboy007
18-08-2009, 23:20
Chariots that are toughness 4.
High Elf Tironic
High Elf Lion
Goblin Wolf
Snotling Pump Wagon
Tomb King
Tzeentch Daemons
Slaanesh Daemons

Chariots that cost more than 145points
Nurgle/Khornate Marked Chaos Warrior Chariot
Scraplauncher
Black Coach

Note that
Dark Elf
Orc Boar
Chaos
Khornate Daemons
Beasts
Chariots are all under 145pts, most of which are actually cheaper than a naked asssasin who hasnt spent over 50pts to allow himself to make toughness 5+ chariots explode.

Other than saying you'll probably need to throw at least 2 chariots at a unit containing such an assasin (or any number infact, the entire unit can only stand and shoot at one of them) which I already stated in the quote.

Note that the Hidden Assasin has to be revealed at the start of any of the DE turns, or at the start of any close combat phase.
So you are guaranteed to know there is an assasin in the unit (and if he is armed with throwing stars or not as its mundane equiptment and it must be revealed) so there's not anything like the risk you seem to think there is.

@Sulla
Sorry...I tried hard not to post tactics but I failed again :(

in other words, most chariots are T 5 (as stated) , I did note there were exceptions (Ive mentioned two of them and I have yet to see a demon chariot on the field).
I'm simply saying that charging a chariot at BG isn't the answer as most sensible DE players will have at least one of these guys.
Also Im not sure of the points difference between the assasin and the other chariots, but consider that he will almost certainly be able to destroy any one of them with ease.

Getting back on topic, BG are excellent prodection for a pendant lord, sure there are solutions to them, but there are solutions to the solutions, accept that they are a tough unit with pretty good options.
And I will admit Drakenhof GG are also very tough, but in my (repeated) experience BG tend to be better.

Weemo
18-08-2009, 23:31
Maoriboy007:

I'm simply saying that charging a chariot at BG isn't the answer as most sensible DE players will have at least one of these guys.

tbh more assassins will be equipped with other equipment, seeing as chariots are fairly rare why take one designed to take them out?

and why would 2d6 auto hits killing BG on 2's be a bad thing? thats an average of 5/6 dead, then the mounts and riders

sulla
19-08-2009, 00:42
@Sulla
Sorry...I tried hard not to post tactics but I failed again :(

:D You're wasting your time...If players on here wanted solutions, these posts wouldn't last more than a couple of pages. If someone is still here this many pages in, they're either incapable or unwilling to adjust. All the players who can adjust are long gone. Still... fight the good fight, eh?

O&G'sRule
25-08-2009, 13:26
you've been a hell of a lot luckier than me then... he's only ws4, i tend not to hit very often.

WS 5. Hitting is the biggest problem, but he its a goblin what do you expect? it works sometimes, sometimes it doesnt

Axis
25-08-2009, 13:45
WS 5. Hitting is the biggest problem, but he its a goblin what do you expect? it works sometimes, sometimes it doesnt

I think he thought it was a big boss not a warboss. Even then the chances of actually killing him in one go are pretty slim.

Grupax
25-08-2009, 14:08
OT: don't forget its dark elves, every chariot with less then 5T dies to RxB from my experience... so they either blow up by the assassin or get sweeped nontheless
not to mention the assassin with manbane and rending stars kills anything... seen many of my spawns/ gaints/ wyverns /boar chariots puf into thin air... same with high tougness characters with big time armour saves,... all dispatched caus' of them - hitting and wounding on 2's with 3 shots and next to no AS left.

anyways back OT:
the item is ubercool and powerfull but honestly
the pendant really doesn't disturb me much on a lord... as he has "only 4" attacks that can be saved.
it's not becouse he's unkillable, that he makes back his points... I bet there are way more productive setups.

and if he's on a dragon, then spells like creeping death can dispose of him (or you gain CR by hitting the dragon)

if you play O&G, challenge him with triksy trinket (takes his AS-only for goblin) and amulet of protectynes (uses his ward and armour save instead of your own - both goblins and orcs)
if you fight him with an unclean one, there's no way he'll pass each T test for each wound inflicted.
...
where there's a will there's a way (mostly)

@weemo,- maybe it's the assassins that make the chariots a rare sight

Don Zeko
25-08-2009, 18:50
Again, why are we assuming that the lord and the assasin with rending stars are in the Black Guard? This is a 700+ point unit, and it certainly won't beat even half of its points in chariots. I, for one, never run an assassin in my Black Guard, and rarely put a lord there. The above unit would be game-breaking if it wasn't a movement 5 block of infantry, or if it could survive a round of shooting, but come on! this unit can be march-blocked and decimated by a 140 point gyrocopter,or broken by 3 or 4 chariots at half the price, or shot to pieces in a turn or two. I'm not saying it isn't a very powerful unit, but there will always be a way for the opponent to deal with guys that have toughness 3 and a 5+ armor save.

danny-d-b
25-08-2009, 19:43
erm easy way of killing of DE lord?

magnifcet burbos

yep I might miss cast but at 2000 points my army is casting it 3 times a turn, and still has 5 dice left on my lord (or 3 and 2 for the army, my lord had power familiar)

and even if I do miss cast then I've got the puppet to get me back to 7s ish then all he has is regen, so I'd need to cast bubus 6 times

and if you don't have bubus, then it back to either avoiding them or makeing the stubbon ASF black guard run away (and to make things nice I could always kill the ring carrer with bubus 1st?)