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rtunian
18-08-2009, 03:01
so, i was reading the vampire counts faq, looking for something that might shed some light on the whole carstein ring vs null stone debacle, and i came across the following interesting question that got me thinking:


Q: can a necromancer mounted on a corpse cart make march moves? a necromancer on its own can, but a corpse cart on its own cannot...
A: yes it can, as it is still a character

first of all, why can't a corpse cart march, if it moves like a monster? in the little book, there is no such prohibition on marching for monsters. it's only chariots that cannot march, but the vc army book is very clear that for movement purposes, the corpse cart is like a monster.

does the big rule book include a prohibition on marching for monsters, that for some unknown reason was not included in the little rule book?

now, on to the crux of the matter: can my character mounted on chariot march for the same reason? "yes it can, as it is still a character" ... this baffles me, but i can see no reason why it would apply to the corpse cart and not to character chariots.

again, i understand that the knee-jerk reaction to the question is "you fool! page 62 says they never march!" especially since there is nothing to the contrary in the section on characters and chariots. still, this faq answer... "yes it can, as it is still a character" really fubar's the cut-and-dry nature of the question for me.

if you post "no!!!", please be so kind as to also explain why the corpse cart cannot march, and why although the corpse cart cannot normally march, it suddenly can march if and only if there's a necromancer mounted on it. thanks

stripsteak
18-08-2009, 03:31
rules for undead.
the corpse cart can't march because it is undead, it needs a vampire nearby to march unless it is a character.

the corpse cart with necro can march because it has a character on top of it. i think they just poorly worded the response.

*edit*
reading it again i'm thinking they mean of course it can march because the necromancer is still a character even when mounted, not that the corpse cart becomes a character.

Yrrdead
18-08-2009, 07:17
It still is an interesting point , to me anyway.

The necromancer by himself can march as he is a character.
Necromancer's are not vampire's.
Corpse cart's must start their movement within 6" of vampire to march (or 12" of the general).
And we all know what the FAQ says.

I guess the real question is, is a chariot classified as a mount? Or is it its own special entity as a chariot?

If a chariot is its own unique classification and not simply another "mount" then it makes sense that the BRB ruling of never marching applies.

Also in all the time people have been trying to come up with crazy stuff , I would have to guess that someone at some point has also brought this up. And subsequently slapped down for tomfoolery.


*EDIT - Actually after reading pg 62 and 64 a few times I'd have to say that no they chariots can never march. Pg 64 kind of gave me the feeling that you could be onto something fun to argue about but after rereading 62, I interpret it to basically be a special rule "chariots may never march." Regardless of who is riding it. The only way this would change would be if there was some type of specific magic item or even magic chariot that had a rule "Allows chariot/s to march"

Necromancy Black
18-08-2009, 08:16
*EDIT - Actually after reading pg 62 and 64 a few times I'd have to say that no they chariots can never march. Pg 64 kind of gave me the feeling that you could be onto something fun to argue about but after rereading 62, I interpret it to basically be a special rule "chariots may never march." Regardless of who is riding it. The only way this would change would be if there was some type of specific magic item or even magic chariot that had a rule "Allows chariot/s to march"

Corpse Cart is not a chariot. It moves using the monster rules, so the above has nothing to do with it.

In fact, let me say that again....

The corpse cart in not in any way a chariot!

...Sorry, it's kinda a sore point of mine.

Haven't gotten that out of the way, it is a mount and therefore is a monstrous mount (2 or more wounds). It counts as a single model, so I guess this is what let's it march.

Yrrdead
18-08-2009, 08:20
What? NB this is about chariots marching, the corpse cart thing just brought the question up. I play vamps I know that CC aren't chariots. :)

Sirroelivan
18-08-2009, 08:28
I would say no, since the corps cart is a mount for the necromancer. A regular chariot however isn't a mount for a character.

Necromancy Black
18-08-2009, 08:29
God, it was all confusing, but my post stands :p

Now, to the issue:

Doesn't say exactly, but honestly, I'll advise to use all rules like this:

Take the most base rule, in this case chariots can't march.

Apply a different circumstance, in this case a character is riding the chariot. Has anything changed the above rule? No, then the chariot still can't march.

Remember, with a mount you use the mounts movement, not the characters.

The FAQ actually goes against the norm here, and it seems like it's much more RAI for the VC army then for the actual base rules.

My advice is that the VC FAQ is correct for VC. That's how the rules meant to play. I don't see this as having a game wide affect.

After all, character on barded mounts don't ignore the -1 to Movement, so why ignore this?

EDIT:: to make my blanket ruling approach clearer, here's a better example:

Can models march?: Yes.
Can they march if they are within 8" of an enemy unit?: No, overrides previous ruling
Can they march if they are within 8" of an enemy unit and are Dwarves: Yes, overrides previous ruling
Can they march if they are chariots?: No, overrides previous ruling
Can they march if they are characters?: No ruling, keep the previous one.

And so on. We have rules for chariots and unit marching, but we have nothing to say about characters in this, so they keep the previous ruling. I find this works for pretty much all rules, though it can get very messy with some rules and precendent of questions so may not always be appropriate.

stripsteak
18-08-2009, 08:30
so to sum it up

corpse cart is not a chariot
can a chariot on it's own march - no chariots can't march
can a corpse cart on it's own march - no because it is undead, unless it starts it's turn within 6" of a vampire or 12" of the general
can a character on a chariot march - no chariots can't march
can a character on a corpse cart march - yes because it is a single model that is an undead character on a monstrous mount.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 08:55
Why didn't they just call Corpse Carts monsters and be done with it?
(And Warshrines too!)

rtunian
18-08-2009, 13:54
because "foresight" is a trait that is not given to game developers or politicians

EvC
18-08-2009, 16:18
Why didn't they just call Corpse Carts monsters and be done with it?
(And Warshrines too!)

Because then they'd have to take a monster reaction test when their rider dies. I actually played it that way before the VC FAQ, and people acte like it was madness. Zombies- suffering from stupidity? Or never moving now that their controller is dead? Or hatred/ frenzy? You'd think that any of those suggestions was blasphemy...

siphon101
18-08-2009, 16:48
As mentioned, this ruling has to do specifically with vampire counts march rules, and is not applicable to any other situation. In a VC army, unless a unit is within 6” of a vampire, or 12” of the general, it may not march, unless it is a character.

A corpse cart thus, outside of those bubbles, may not march. But mount a necromancer on it, and it can, because it becomes a mounted character, and thus may march as it normally may. A character on a chariot is still a character on a chariot, and as such is still bound by normal chariot rules of “no marching”.

The line about being a character only relates to VC rules about marching.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 23:28
Because then they'd have to take a monster reaction test when their rider dies. I actually played it that way before the VC FAQ, and people acte like it was madness. Zombies- suffering from stupidity? Or never moving now that their controller is dead? Or hatred/ frenzy? You'd think that any of those suggestions was blasphemy...

A monster that automatically passes its monster reaction test?

And why is it so hard to believe that zombies would be stupid or stationary if their controller is dead?

I can easily imagine a herd of zombies running amok when their controller dies! In fact, isn't that the plot of like a dozen horror stories and movies?

Maoriboy007
19-08-2009, 04:56
A monster that automatically passes its monster reaction test?

And why is it so hard to believe that zombies would be stupid or stationary if their controller is dead?

I can easily imagine a herd of zombies running amok when their controller dies! In fact, isn't that the plot of like a dozen horror stories and movies?

Zombie one: "our leader is dead, what's the plan now?"

Zombie two: "eat EVERYBODY!"

Condottiere
19-08-2009, 06:07
Why do you think they eat brains? What they haven't figured out is that it doesn't help.

EvC
19-08-2009, 13:29
And why is it so hard to believe that zombies would be stupid or stationary if their controller is dead?

Because the people who said it was stupid resembled zombies in that they were unable to think for themselves ;)

PeG
19-08-2009, 23:24
are necros classified as vampires? Otherwise why would the necro be able to help the monster to march?

stripsteak
19-08-2009, 23:33
because the necro is a character. and a necro on a corpse cart is a character (on a monstrous mount) a necro standing next to a corpse cart does nothing for the corpse cart.

Ultimate Life Form
19-08-2009, 23:38
are necros classified as vampires? Otherwise why would the necro be able to help the monster to march?

No he's not. This question is more complicated than I thought in the beginning. Necro(mancy) broke it down very well. Necros can march because they are characters. Corpse Carts cannot march because they are not characters. So why would the presence of a Necro make it march? The only explanation would be that rider and mount count as a single hybrid model and since it's partially a character, the character march rule would apply.