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BRETELF
18-08-2009, 02:54
I am having some problems vs orcs, ive lost twice in a row. Once at 2000 pts and once at 1000 pts. He had a doom diver two bolt throwers two units of goblin archers orc boar chariot a unit of black orcs a unit of boyz 25 strong, btw the black orcs were 18 strong, and he had 3 fanatics. And a unit of wolf riders


What would work well against that list?

I had 1 bolt thrower 2 units of 8 swordmasters, a unit of 12 white lions, lion chariot, 20 spearmen, and i had an eagle.

Different units?Any tips are needed. thanks

BRETELF
18-08-2009, 03:44
Any ideas?

Deglosh
18-08-2009, 08:03
One thing you might have noticed. The orcs and goblins have a huge, often at least, number of units. All are diferent from eachother in one way or the other maybe more so than in any other army. Very diverse at least.

What you want to do is focus all youre fire/magic power on his strongest unit and break it. Picking of units like this. The smaller not so strong units, ull just have to work out a way to counter them so you can focus on the stronger ones without being owned by the lesser orc&gobbo units, as you know even they can pack a punch (fanatics).

Anyway you should NOT target his gobbos. If they break, he doesnt have to take panic test with anything biggar than a gobbo. I would NUKE the black orcs, and then go for the orc boyz if they dont break when the black orcs do. Other than that...i dont know, i dont play high elf so ull have to figure out a way to take a charge or out manouver him, wichj should not be to hard with animosity (if he doesnt keep rolling 6's).

Wolfblaze
18-08-2009, 13:25
I find 8 swordmasters chop up almost anything.. that is except ranked up orc untis haha, trying to kill 6 and not take any wounds is a hard ask for even 15 str 5 hits, (mathshammer says it can be done but in reality I've never killed the whole rank on average)

Basically, use your 'masters to flank, push the spears up front to accept the waaagh charge as an anvil (cast shield of saphery, this will ensure thier tarpitedness) and if you deployed in a nice tricky manner you should be able to push the swordmasters around the sides. I'd keep the chariot back to help the spear unit in the next turn and bascially assuredly wipe out the unit that got cuaght on the spears,

For your list i'd suggest dropping 1 unit of the swordmasters (only really need one for flanking) and pack more into your white lions unit (not only can they withstand the archers better with 20 of htem you can easily crush his black orc unit.

OK to sum up - Eagle - hunt those spear chukkas and loose those fanatics early
Spears - anvil unit (take korhil and throw him in there maybe, works a charm when they're stubborn too)
8 swordmasters - flanking/hammer (keep them behind spears from bows)
20 white lions - move forwards aggressively and draw the bowfire (they'll be able to take 1v1 anything he throws at them so make sure its going to be a 1v1 fight before you commit, and remember they can go through woods.
Thrower - take out those wolf riders first then whittle down the black orcs

If you have the anvil in the middle and the two hammers around the outside flanks you'll be able to focus on a portion of his army and wipe it out most effectively. Lions and chariot combo - then spears in middle - then thrower and swordmasters

Anyway good luck that was a random rant and it probably didn't make much sense :P

Tarian
18-08-2009, 15:31
I am having some problems vs orcs, ive lost twice in a row. Once at 2000 pts and once at 1000 pts. He had a doom diver two bolt throwers two units of goblin archers orc boar chariot a unit of black orcs a unit of boyz 25 strong, btw the black orcs were 18 strong, and he had 3 fanatics. And a unit of wolf riders


What would work well against that list?

I had 1 bolt thrower 2 units of 8 swordmasters, a unit of 12 white lions, lion chariot, 20 spearmen, and i had an eagle.

Different units?Any tips are needed. thanks

Hrm... I don't know your character choices, so I don't know if you're heavy magic/melee/balanced. (Or his for that matter.)

I have to question your quantity of units. 8 SM's? 12 Lions? It seems like there's random models just tacked on that don't provide any benefit. I field 1 block of 14 SMs in a 7x2 formation. Additionally, some cav or scouts would be nice. Cav can get the charge first, even if he Waaaghs (Due to a grossly superior move range) and scouts can either hunt war machines or die heroically popping fanatics early.

I'll give you my list @1000, see if you like it.

1 Level 2 Mage, Dispel Scroll, Seer Staff

14 Spear Elves 5x3 (Mage goes in here)
-Champion
-Standard

14 Swordmasters 7x2
- Champion
- Armor of Caledor
- Standard
- Warbanner

5 Dragon Princes 5x1
- Champion
- Standard
- Banner of Ellyrion

2 Bolt Throwers 1x1 :)


Honestly, Ork Boyz aren't much of an issue for HE elites, and Goblins are even worse off. SM's have a definate advantage against any of his melees, just watch out they don't get shot down. (Though Gobbo shooting is pretty atrocious, do don't worry *that* much.)

BRETELF
18-08-2009, 16:40
We didnt use characters in the 1000 pont battle for some reason.

rtunian
18-08-2009, 17:15
!

you can't field a legal army without at least 1 character.

BRETELF
18-08-2009, 17:35
hmm, i see. Well next time i guess i will field one then.

PitOfShades
18-08-2009, 21:17
..........................

PitOfShades
18-08-2009, 21:18
.................. nevermind

yashamaru38
18-08-2009, 22:16
your mages should be able to seriously magic him to death. find his big bad unit and blow the hell out of it. have the bolt throwers take out anything that could be a threat first. then fire away. magic shouldn't be an issue for you but its a big one for him. high elves require alot of finesse and planning to work effectively.

BRETELF
18-08-2009, 22:22
Yah finesse,ill deffinetly use a mage next time. There is one problem with using a unit of 20 white lions, it takes of 300 points, then if you add a mage thats almost 500 points.

One other problem is the doom diver, that did alot of damage to my spearmen unit.

BRETELF
19-08-2009, 00:51
I have a question about the doom-diver. Can it fire at something out of sight? Like behind a forest or a town. My friend said they could.



Cheers

Tarian
19-08-2009, 00:57
Er... if it's a stone-thrower type, then no unless it has special rules that I'm unaware of.

BRETELF
19-08-2009, 01:30
It says treat it like a stone thrower, i need an orc and goblin player to tell me about this machine please.


Cheers

rtunian
19-08-2009, 02:59
doom diver has 2 rules
neither of them allows you to, or indicates that you can, target a unit that is out of your line of sight.

however, the rule does allow you to move your d3 in any direction, meaning that you can scatter towards something that is out of los, and also aim the extra up to three inches towards it, even though it's out of los. but no, you can not specify a target that you do not have los to

Lord Hurin
19-08-2009, 14:34
Orcs can have decent Magic defence when they want to. Staff of Sneaky Stealin' converts an enemy Power Die into a Dispel Die ever enemy Magic phase. Mork's Spirit-totem gives Orcs extra DD equal to the unit the banner is in. I'd never leave home without either.

On the other hand, Orcs have poor armour saves. A unit of Boyz will only have 5+ AS, so why not use your famed Elven archery against them?

Tarian
19-08-2009, 16:24
"Famed" elven archery may be a bit of an exaggeration... I'd put our archery as firmly mediocre. (Except for our RBTs)

Shiodome
19-08-2009, 16:35
I've only ever lost to HEs when they've brought flying terror causers to the party (dragons). Generally HE's don't worry O&G that much, they've a better magic defense than most, and the numbers to soak up any magic that gets through (+ shooting). Plenty of dirty tricks to throw at the tiny elite expensive stuff (doom divers / fanatics). And with a massive unit advantage, it'd have to be a pretty dire O&G player to get out manouvered and flanked.

Unfortunatley i'd say 'go dragon', which is a shame, as i can't stand the crutch that dragons have become for HE's.

Condottiere
19-08-2009, 16:44
The Sword Masters should be eating up the Orcs for breakfast, the march blockers triggering fanatics and the RBTs taking out large targets and decimating tough ones.

Nuada
19-08-2009, 16:48
[QUOTE=Shiodome;3874652]Generally HE's don't worry O&G that much[QUOTE]

Yeah i agree with that..

Added to this alot of HE players like to take MSUs (units of 7-10 swordmasters etc) try and avoid this tactic against orcs, it never works. Most orc players will take alot of chariots against high elves.

Tarian
19-08-2009, 16:54
I've only ever lost to HEs when they've brought flying terror causers to the party (dragons). Generally HE's don't worry O&G that much, they've a better magic defense than most, and the numbers to soak up any magic that gets through (+ shooting). Plenty of dirty tricks to throw at the tiny elite expensive stuff (doom divers / fanatics). And with a massive unit advantage, it'd have to be a pretty dire O&G player to get out manouvered and flanked.

Unfortunatley i'd say 'go dragon', which is a shame, as i can't stand the crutch that dragons have become for HE's.

I've never had a problem with O&G, and I don't like fielding a dragon. HE elites will eat O&G in combat, and we're faster to boot. Yes, we're outnumbered, but HE hit very, very hard.

EDIT:: As for O&G chariots, Dragon Princes will make a mess of those, as they hit hard, and are much faster.

Shiodome
19-08-2009, 18:03
HE elites will eat whatever the O&G player sacrifces to them, that's not the same as winning the battle. Can see we're already sliding into the "but x should beat y if they do z" back and forth, which is always useless. Overall, the O&G have numbers, lots of cheap fast cavalry, good magical defense, high toughness, and more warmachines and chariots than everyone else. basically everything you'd want against HE's.

stop trying to match off one unit against another and claim it's a counter. saying 'dragon princes mess up chariots' or similar completely ignores the fact that there's several 35 point bolt throwers lying about, chariots are deployed in the center of a line flanked by fanatic deilvery systems, and only have a 16" charge (afaik) compared to 18" for the goblins etc etc. much like saying fanatics counter swordmasters. ignoring the fact that HE could, if they choose sacrifice some elyrian reavers to draw them out (though that's a swap i'd be happy with as an O&G general).

it's more a case of O&G can bring a lot of things that are good vs HE, and can bring them in numbers that HE struggle to deal with all at once.

Nuada
19-08-2009, 18:26
Plus, it's not a bragging match of which army you can beat ....."let's not bicker about who killed who".

It's the same as when someone starts a thread asking for advice against DoC. You always get someone saying.. "well i always beat DoC".... so what, who cares. That's not what the OP asked

The OP is after tactics to beat O&G. I was suggesting he avoids taking MSUs with army selection. I'd advise taking max rare units. RBTs are good choice, try and concentrate fire on his generals unit. Eagles are a good choice for march blocking, and if he takes fanatics. Probably spearmen instead of archers. For Special choices white lions are actually good as MSUs because they avoid chariots inside woods. Cavalry are good, but they're usually taken out by a death throe fanatic before they can attack, same with chariots. It's all about timing and patience. If you can make the NGs flee they'll kill the fanatics, then you charge the orcs infront of them.
Just some ideas

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 18:31
Generally HE's don't worry O&G that much

Generally, I don't worry about O&G much at all. As a HE player, they're pretty much the least of my worries. The only thing you have to watch out for is Fanatics. They can make a pretty big mess..

Condottiere
19-08-2009, 19:02
I'd say the only thing that really has an effect on the HE strategy is Waaagh! Once that's neutralized or compensated for, it should be fairly smooth sailing. Even if Orcs do reach HE units unexpectantly, ASF should ensure the odds are on their side.

Tarian
19-08-2009, 19:18
HE elites will eat whatever the O&G player sacrifces to them, that's not the same as winning the battle. Can see we're already sliding into the "but x should beat y if they do z" back and forth, which is always useless. Overall, the O&G have numbers, lots of cheap fast cavalry, good magical defense, high toughness, and more warmachines and chariots than everyone else. basically everything you'd want against HE's.

stop trying to match off one unit against another and claim it's a counter. saying 'dragon princes mess up chariots' or similar completely ignores the fact that there's several 35 point bolt throwers lying about, chariots are deployed in the center of a line flanked by fanatic deilvery systems, and only have a 16" charge (afaik) compared to 18" for the goblins etc etc. much like saying fanatics counter swordmasters. ignoring the fact that HE could, if they choose sacrifice some elyrian reavers to draw them out (though that's a swap i'd be happy with as an O&G general).

it's more a case of O&G can bring a lot of things that are good vs HE, and can bring them in numbers that HE struggle to deal with all at once.


Plus, it's not a bragging match of which army you can beat ....."let's not bicker about who killed who".

It's the same as when someone starts a thread asking for advice against DoC. You always get someone saying.. "well i always beat DoC".... so what, who cares. That's not what the OP asked

The OP is after tactics to beat O&G. I was suggesting he avoids taking MSUs with army selection. I'd advise taking max rare units. RBTs are good choice, try and concentrate fire on his generals unit. Eagles are a good choice for march blocking, and if he takes fanatics. Probably spearmen instead of archers. For Special choices white lions are actually good as MSUs because they avoid chariots inside woods. Cavalry are good, but they're usually taken out by a death throe fanatic before they can attack, same with chariots. It's all about timing and patience. If you can make the NGs flee they'll kill the fanatics, then you charge the orcs infront of them.
Just some ideas

Well, it seems like O&G are the optimal army to face HE based on your list... since, obviously, I wouldn't throw Shadow Warriors after the spear chuckers, etc. etc. since HE can't try to counter the counters etc. etc. Me, I'm just trying to say what works for me. :angel:

1) HE elites are frail, but hit very, very hard. In melee, they should do just fine, even considering being outnumbered.

2) Use this to your advantage! Stick into combat quickly, stick in hard. With their average/sub-average leadership for most units, you can break a unit quickly, potentially causing a cascading effect of panic tests.

3) HE are specialized. Realize this and don't put a unit where it shouldn't be. Swordmasters take hits like a wet paper bag. Screen them if possible. Lions are extremely hard to break. Throw them in front of the big nasty (tm). PG don't die, eat up the hard hits with them. (Fanatics, etc.)

4) Pick your fights! Black Orks should beat spears... they should fail against Swordmasters. With your greater maneuverability, you should be able to pick your fights pretty well.

5) Knights do fine, just send them away from fanatics, and pop them early with shadow warriors/eagles whatever.

Well, that's some of my idea, take from them what you will.