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View Full Version : Does anyone else think nid guns look dumb?



Strictly Commercial
10-01-2006, 11:32
I can't think of a clearer way to state my question, so I just named my post after the most concise way of asking. Rather than post a poll, I have to ask if anyone else sees the gun toting nids as silly. I know they are really growing out of the body and such and that they are pseudobiological (is that even a word?). But it just seems odd that they are in the exact pose as a regular troop holding an assault weapon, and the effect bothers me.

I always thought modeling the nids so they were spewing plasma from their mouths, or flinging quills from a tail, or a number of other possibilities would be much cooler, but maybe there is a fluff reason for holding them? Maybe it says something about the origin of the 'nids that is yet to be revealed, or perhaps the hive mind was influenced by seeing imperium and tau warriors armed similarly and chose to spawn organisms which emulated what it considered highly efficient enemies. Either way the look of it still doesn't sit well, and I had to wonder if I was alone.

sigur
10-01-2006, 11:43
Tyranid guns always looked like that and no, I don't think that they look "dumb".

nos4artu
10-01-2006, 11:43
Yeah. I also think the bonesword is rather daft as well. However, I suppose you could get around the issue by arguing that the distant, distant ancestors of the Tyranids used firearms and whatnot in a fashion similar to how the other 40k races do. Then they started going all hungry for bio-engineering and the pose and use of such symbiote critters is a throwback due to nostalgia in the hivemind;).

I'd prefer to see more of a plausable range of weaponry, that is, something that is modelled on the various nasty projectile and darty style things evident in nature, rather than rifle like bio-weapons.

Khaine's Messenger
10-01-2006, 11:47
It's actually a more recent trend to have them recessed or more fully integrated with the "host" organism at all. Re: pg 5 of their 4th edition codex; it appears that Tyranids are slowly adopting a more synergistic approach. The only reason they haven't dropped their external weapon symbiotes entirely for even more ridiculously integrated approaches is, I would suspect, because they do not want to become overgeneralized or too integrated into basic forms. *shrugs*

I'm not particularly fond of it either, really.

Brimstone
10-01-2006, 12:05
They look a lot better than the original chicken drumstick deathspitters.

From a background point of view the hive mind is slowly intergating their weapons as already mentioned and having them only semi-intergated allows customisation of the organism at a late stage.

From a gaming point of view having the weapon visible is very important so people can tell exactly what they are armed with and preventing any creative rules interpretation.

stormtrooper154
10-01-2006, 12:09
I think they look ok, agreeing with what brimstone said about the early edition guns- they looked dumb. Im just loving the new guns and how they merge into the host.

Chaos and Evil
10-01-2006, 12:33
I might also add, from a purely tactical standpoint it is better to have a weapon that can be aimed independantly from the host creature than to have the weapon on a fixed axis (Such as projecting out of its chest for example).

It's why real warships now have their cannons in turrets that can turn, rather than having broadsides of static guns that mean you have to turn the entire ship in order to aim your weapons.

Thus yes, it makes perfect sense for Tyranid weapons to be mounted on manipulators of some kind, which are bound to look somewhat like arms.

Vanger
10-01-2006, 12:58
I like the new 'nid range. They look the best for me. Now the old range looked 'dumb'.

Why do they have guns, instead of spitting death? Hm... I wouldn't underestaminate the versatility of manipulators (arms in this case) and that the same basic gaunt can be equiped with an array of different weapon symbionts. Doesn't require so much genetic engineering too.

lord_blackfang
10-01-2006, 13:16
Yes, the semi-integrated guns are daft beyond reason.

Either you have seperate weapons so you can drop one and pick up another, or you have fully integrated weapons. Preferably somewhere where they don't completely deny you the use of your upper limbs.

A nid with two sets of guns would have trouble standing up in the morning, let alone climb, jump, or fight in melee. Replacing your hands with big ol' gun barrels is just too stupid for words, especially if you theoretically have the ability to put them anywhere on your body.

Jellicoe
10-01-2006, 13:23
ah I dont know, the 3rd ed Nids were what brought me back from my wilderness years to 40k stuff. I thought the semi integrated weaponry looked great. One reason why i thought the bonesword on the new tyrant was a retrograde step. Not alien enough.

In terms of integrated weaponry the new Raveners have integrated torso weapons and I have no idea of the FW Trygon but this looks as if it might too

I dare say more evolution from the Norn Queens can be expected...

FoolsJourney
10-01-2006, 13:36
Well, our nids are all hacky-slashy-tear, with the exception of spine banks and spore cysts on the carnis and some occasionally used gargoyles for that very reason. I have no problem with the idea of bio-acid spitting or venom shooting, but I'd prefer they were better integrated into the limbs (not unlike the underslung or backmounted railguns on crisis suits) rather than the trigger fingers which just don't do it for me. Sooner or later I'll get round to customising them.

In killing terms, a Carni with 4 devourers is a monster, but as lord blackfang suggests, would such a creature survive? I would imagine it wouldn't ever get back to its feet if it was felled. You could adapt the fluff so that the rippers on the bases are the foragers/cleaners for the parent creature I suppose, but it wouldn't help them get back up again....

unless they were ripper jacks :D

mattjgilbert
10-01-2006, 13:43
From a gaming point of view having the weapon visible is very important so people can tell exactly what they are armed with and preventing any creative rules interpretation.I suspect this is the true reason why. This way, they consistent with all the other races and are easier to make out during a game.

Not that I think that is entirely necessary and some alternatives could be employed without causing too much confusion.

McMullet
10-01-2006, 14:20
They are supposed to be, in origin, separate creatures. So a deathspitter is a living organism in it's own right, rather than being part of the creature that carries it.

They are now more integrated into the host as the relationship is becoming more symbiotic. Eventually, we may see nids with guns as part of their limbs or something.

Vanger
10-01-2006, 14:59
I also think that the reason for seperate weapon system is that (aside the opurtunity to be identified visualy) is that, that the tyranid race isn't engineered from top to bottom. They're not like the zerg that the Overmind took some species and gene-engineered them for their respective battlefield role, but rather they are a distinctive species bio-enhanced to perform effective in their designated battlefield role. And they don't use rigid materials for weapons as steel, but living weapons.

(And don't forget! According to the GW developers they aren't bugs, theye more like space-dinosaurs... Now THAT'S dumb. :wtf: )

Scythe
10-01-2006, 15:22
Yes, the semi-integrated guns are daft beyond reason.

Either you have seperate weapons so you can drop one and pick up another, or you have fully integrated weapons. Preferably somewhere where they don't completely deny you the use of your upper limbs.

A nid with two sets of guns would have trouble standing up in the morning, let alone climb, jump, or fight in melee. Replacing your hands with big ol' gun barrels is just too stupid for words, especially if you theoretically have the ability to put them anywhere on your body.

But the idea however is that the Tyranid creatures are designed with one purpose in mind. They don't need to climb, sleep, or dans the tango, so they wouldn't need any hands if designed for shooting the enemy until he stops moving. And you don't need 4 limbs to get up; even a T-rex could lay down with his miniscule arms. And for a lot of creatures, it is not the arms that bother in combat, but the mass/spikes etc.

gLOBS
10-01-2006, 16:13
I have to agree on they still look the way they do for the opponents. I have just converted the poses of my tyranids and standing side by side I am continually surprised at how many people confuse carny's and tyrants, even a carny next to a carny.

lord_blackfang
10-01-2006, 16:47
But the idea however is that the Tyranid creatures are designed with one purpose in mind. They don't need to climb, sleep, or dans the tango, so they wouldn't need any hands if designed for shooting the enemy until he stops moving. And you don't need 4 limbs to get up; even a T-rex could lay down with his miniscule arms. And for a lot of creatures, it is not the arms that bother in combat, but the mass/spikes etc.

They're not generally born in shooting range of the enemy, are they? Your average Gunfex has about as much cross-country mobility as a golf cart.

Pokpoko
10-01-2006, 17:16
well,monstrous creatures do get reroll for the dif ground(or was it additional die?:D),so i'd say that being able to batter your way through the wood does help while moving cross-country:D..or they use those long tails like tow cables when in need:D

Frecus
10-01-2006, 17:40
Here's another opposer of the symbiont weapons.

I'd rather see them have less guns, and have specialised gun creatures, who are basically walking guns. A bit like the bugs in SST.

But oh well, who am I? And, one can always convert.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

gLOBS
10-01-2006, 18:23
Well in fluff terms they use other more mobile organisms such as gargoyles and such to herd the enemy towards the slower vangard swarms.

Flame Boy
10-01-2006, 19:00
Though Brim pointed out the trend for Tyranid weapons was that they were more integrated into the Tyranid (his reference to the old Deathspitter for example). However, bear in mind that originally the Bio-Plasma was a ranged attack that wasn't specifically modelled onto a Carnifex. It was a plasma bolt that was vomited from the creature's mouth and aimed using an electrical field projected by the Carnifex's scythe-like limbs. Fast forward to today and a ranged carnifex now has to carry a weapon symbiote. In this case, the trend is reversed and the weapon is less integrated into the model.

However, I think from a modelling point of view it is more convenient to have symbiotically bonded limbs rather than trying to extract the weapon out of the torso if you want a conversion.

From a game balance point of view it also makes sense to have bonded symbiote weapons rather than weapons implanted directly into the host. If a Tyranid warrior can fire spines or spray venom from it's torso, it's still 100% effective in combat and has an additional ranged attacks. However, graft those symbiotes onto the creature's limbs, and suddenly there is a tradeofff between close combat efficciency and firepower.

I think it makes a fair bit of sense from a background perspective that complicated bio-weapons are seperate from the main Tyranid body. If you need a new role for an attack helecopter (for example, anti-submarine warfare), it is a lot simpler to pick an existing airframe and modify it and start from scratch, which is essentially what you would be doing if you make ranged weapons completely integrated into a host Tyranid body. The Hive mind would have to work a lot harder to solve a problem is every time it needed to fill a new niche in it's arsenal it had to go back to square one.

chumchu
10-01-2006, 19:14
They look stupid.

NakedFisherman
10-01-2006, 19:15
I like 'em a lot.

Like someone else said, the weapons and the organisms they are "a part" of are somewhat separate.

Scythe
10-01-2006, 19:42
They look stupid.

Now that's a helpfull, well thought and explained comment....:rolleyes:

erion
10-01-2006, 19:54
Tyranids don't need hands, at least not the ones we're seeing on the battlefield. These creatures don't represent the pinnacle of Tyranid evolution. They're designed to conquer worlds and facilitate the processing of that world's biomass into the hive fleet's stores. Even the tyranid organisms themselves are re-digested when the world is scoured, and a whole new set of nasties are generated when the hive fleet moves on. No one has ever seen the Norn Queens, or any of the organisms that might exist within the Hive ships when they're not prepped for battle.

Be careful what you wish for, guys.

NakedFisherman
10-01-2006, 20:12
Tyranids don't need hands, at least not the ones we're seeing on the battlefield. These creatures don't represent the pinnacle of Tyranid evolution. They're designed to conquer worlds and facilitate the processing of that world's biomass into the hive fleet's stores. Even the tyranid organisms themselves are re-digested when the world is scoured, and a whole new set of nasties are generated when the hive fleet moves on. No one has ever seen the Norn Queens, or any of the organisms that might exist within the Hive ships when they're not prepped for battle.

Be careful what you wish for, guys.

Uriel Ventris and Pasanius have certainly seen a Norn Queen. :p

Vanger
10-01-2006, 20:14
I have to disagree with you Erion (:wtf: M*?!), but if the tyranid organisms are spawned from biomas (as it is per fluff), how can you talk about evolution? There is nothing like tyranid evolution. They are recycled and reconstructed for the task at hand. Maybe the 'Norn Queen' which constructs the tyranid "species" would be descendant of a species that had underwent evolution, but not the organisms which are fielded during a battle.

Ah well I'm getting OT, sorry, I got carried away :angel:

Atzcapotzalco
10-01-2006, 21:07
I have to say there are marked advantages in being able to aim a hand-held weapon, even over one bonded to your forearm, and in addition as noted it makes it a lot easier to adapt a given creature for a different role.
I would also like to cite the following examples of bio-weaponry(for the record I am counting sabotaging an enemy's will or ability to fight as "weaponry"):
Warp blast, psychic scream, horror-about as "fully integrated" as it is possible to be.
Spine banks, spore cysts, toxic miasma, acid maw, implant attack, fleshhooks, mace/scythe tail, thornback, feeder tendrils, tusks-While a distressingly large number are carnifex only and the bioplasma for some deranged reason stopped being a proper weapon a long time ago, all examples of integrated weaponry beyond external weapon symbiotes.
Biovores-essentially nothing more than a walking spore-mine launcher.
Winged/leaping-while not technically weapons more non-external, non-defensive combat modifications.

What I consider look "stupid" are the claws-the rending claws simply aren't weapons, at all, and as for the talons-two words, "no wrists". Intimidating yes, but not even close to practical. They can strike directly at an enemy stupid enough to stand immediately in front of them, and that's it. A bonesword may not look as alien, but it actually allows much more flexibility when fighting.

Gen_eV
10-01-2006, 21:29
Rending Claws not weapons? Larger than IG power fists, tipped with super-hard talons capable of ripping through adamantium aren't weapons? Right you are then.

No wrists on Scytals? So what's that fleshy, sinewy bit between the Talon and the forearm then? It appears to have tendons running through it, allowing rotational movement in all three axes.

As for the integration of weapons, it makes sense from a developmental standpoint. Originally, tyranid weapons were totally independent of the carriers, but have now developed into a symbiotic relationship. This has benefits in that the weapon takes its energy requirements directly from the host, thus allowing for better autonomous control. Also, this now gives the oportunity for direct neural control of the weapons, rather than having to go through the awkward medium of 'fingers'.

I agree that XV8-styled weapon attachments may be marginally more efficent for allowing additional manipulation, but if you look at Embryonic Development, it's far easier to cease growth before the tip of an arm, and then have something new grow, than to graft something on at a different position, ie underneath the arm.

Plus, why would a Gunfex have 'the cross-country mobility of a golf cart', as stated by Lord Blackfang? I'm pretty sure they can just walk straight through most things, ie trees, walls etc. Plus they have bloody long legs, feet well under the centre of gravity, and a long tail to assist in balance. Not to mention the possible use of the VC and BS as additional support limbs in dire need. Why are we assuming the weapons have to be kept out of contact with stuff. The Venom Cannon actually has a bayonet on the end!

lord_blackfang
10-01-2006, 21:53
Plus, why would a Gunfex have 'the cross-country mobility of a golf cart', as stated by Lord Blackfang? I'm pretty sure they can just walk straight through most things, ie trees, walls etc.

I'd love to see you climb a steep rocky hill with a rifle glued to your hands ;)

McMullet
10-01-2006, 22:10
But then, Gen_eV's only got 4 limbs, whereas nids have 6...

At least, I ASSUME he only has 4.

Atzcapotzalco
10-01-2006, 23:27
Rending Claws not weapons? Larger than IG power fists, tipped with super-hard talons capable of ripping through adamantium aren't weapons? Right you are then.


No, they aren't, at least not the recent modelling of them, where the "claw" part of the description is non-existant.


No wrists on Scytals? So what's that fleshy, sinewy bit between the Talon and the forearm then? It appears to have tendons running through it, allowing rotational movement in all three axes.


Nope, it's an extra elbow, and even if they did have wrists the back-hand grip itself restricts them to a downward stab. Good for horror movies, not so effective against something fighting back.

Ivan Stupidor
11-01-2006, 00:25
Nope, it's an extra elbow, and even if they did have wrists the back-hand grip itself restricts them to a downward stab. Good for horror movies, not so effective against something fighting back.

I don't know - even without a rotating wrist, I can get a fair range of stabbing and slashing motions out of a hypothetical scything talon (yes, I just spent five minutes jumping around my room pretending I was a Hormagaunt and fighting an imaginary swordsman). Using the assumption that the back of my hand is the talon and starting from a crouch, sideways stabs can be done by rotating the body and the shoulder and springing upwards while straightening the body relative to the legs. Slashing motions can be done by a similar springing rotation with the elbow held further outwards from the body (this assumes the outside edge of the talon is sharp, at least near the end). I couldn't fight for very long attacking like that (not leastwise because I'm not exactly athletic), but a Hormagaunt or Genestealer certainly could. Not to mention that they can probably open with the leaping downwards double-stab, which is by far the easiest motion I tried!

(Personally, I think they have wrists. The models also have a secondary claw for when the weapon is "sheathed" (ie, held against the forearm), which could enable it to scuttle around quite easily on four legs.)

Hawkeye
11-01-2006, 01:20
No, I actually really like the way they look - like the 'nids have stood in some vast brood chamber, and then had their weapons crawl up into their hands, veins and claws budding from the gun-organism and bonding with the creature...

And from a fluff point of view, it seems to work, at least in my opinion. The Tyranids harvest genetic material from conquered species, rather than actually evolving themselves. Over time, the Spitting Creature from Haleth VI may come to be a fully integrated part of a 'nid, but I think for the most part it would remain a seperate template-organism.

Another way to look at Tyranid weaponry (and this rather neatly explains the bonesword in its current form) is that the Norn Queens do not have the instinctive power to seperate form from function, at least not to a large degree.

Thusm they see a thing working effectively against them, like a bolter, and then emulate it with a new bio-construct, spawning them from great vats right next to the ones that spawn termagents... similarly, the Queens could not fail to notice the effectiveness of the leader-class of humans, waving about swords and rallying troops. Except to them, the form and the function are the same, thus they create a construct that can enhance the hive-mind in a similar way, and cannot help but to model it in the same form as a human sword.

That's how I see it, anyway :) Your mileage may of course vary.

methoderik
11-01-2006, 03:52
I love the way they look. Especially the newest line... sexy.

I mean we are not arguing realistic functionality of space alien dinosaur projectile weapons are we?

gLOBS
11-01-2006, 03:59
I mean we are not arguing realistic functionality of space alien dinosaur projectile weapons are we?

Heh sigged.

hiram
11-01-2006, 05:22
the eavy metal team painted eyeballs on them, creepy and gross at the same time.

Clang
11-01-2006, 05:58
I have mixed feelings on this - yes, some nid ranged weapons do look like no more than fleshy rifles, which does seem unimaginative, even more so when all the 'heavy' weapons are carried right-handed(/clawed). But others, e.g devourers, look fine.

I too would like to see some nids with weapons emerging from jaws/torsos etc instead of _always_ on the end of limbs, and my in-progress godzilla army will be an excellent opportunity to try this out.

I've always been a bit puzzled by the theoretical day-to-day life of a nid - are the weapon beasts permanently attached to their 'hosts'? Do nids use their mouths to eat, or are the jaws merely weapons and the nids 'eat' by some other method. Or perhaps they don't eat at all - just as their opponents are reduced to nutrient soup for reabsoption, perhaps the same happens to nids after combat, and the hive mind then grows a new bunch of nids for the next battle, hence an individual creature never eats (or breeds). Arguably all nids are mere dispensable pawns of the hive mind, and only the hive mind itself is truly alive.

or maybe I have an overactive imagination...

Strictly Commercial
11-01-2006, 07:21
As far as I understand the most recent fluff, which seems to be the only fluff that counts, rippers devour dead nids and all other biomass and are then themselves dissolved and digested to form new organisms, but I don't recall it saying anything about nids that survive the battle. I think its one of those things that's left up to the imagination, but if the Norn Queen's motivation in taking biomass from worlds is to expand the tyranid race then I would guess they don't systematically destroy every nid and then make more whenever a battle is iminent. Of course the hive mind is utterly alien to humans so who knows for certain, but it seems relatively enthalpically inefficient.

lord_blackfang
11-01-2006, 11:05
Of course the hive mind is utterly alien to humans so who knows for certain, but it seems relatively enthalpically inefficient.

I agree, breaking down perfectly good Nids and growing new ones just to avoid having to feed them would be a horrible waste of time and energy. Then again, looking at the Nids' physical forms and their modus operandi, the Hive Mind is obviously a few fries short of a happy meal.

Scythe
11-01-2006, 12:23
the eavy metal team painted eyeballs on them, creepy and gross at the same time.

Nah, I don't like that aspect. A gun shouldn't have eyes in a direction it can't shoot, that simply makes no sense. Those things are simply 'gems' or 'different coloured areas' on my nids.

Cheitan Shadowless
11-01-2006, 13:13
Tyranid weaponry is looking better than ever, quite simply. Whereas the new 'nids look like ferocious super-predators with weapons for extremities, the far more seperated firearms and melee weapons of previous editions were as silly-looking as the cartoonishly smiling creatures that carried them.

Use your imagination a bit, people - hexapedal creatures are no more impaired in their mobility when using a set of limbs for purposes different from locomotion than your average human is when walking with a rifle. Any Tyranid creature may scale a vertical wall by use of legs and flesh hooks, swim by using their limbs and tail (not to mention firing their weaponry backwards for added propulsion - something that couldn't be accomplished with fully integrated non-aimable weaponry) and generally go anywhere they want. Just as humans can go anywhere they want when they have the right tools, so can Tyranids - the only difference being that the Tyranids tend to always have these tools on them. :p