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StormWulfen
18-08-2009, 23:14
hey everyone,
i was just thinking why havn't chaos space marines been included in any of the 40k starter sets yet? they are the arch enemy of the imperium (and since every starter set has space marines in) yet they have been somewhat left out. if my memory is correct the sets have gone; orks, dark eldar, tyranids then back to orks? whereas chaos marines, eldar and necrons have been left out. fair enough there hasn't been enough editions to do them all but why not put a differant race in instead of orks again?

your thoughts?

Lord Damocles
18-08-2009, 23:17
Chaos marines are very similar to regular Marines of any flavour (3up 4up 3up, huh!).

Having a small heavy infantry force verses a larger light infantry force makes for a better way to pick up rules and simple tactics from a starter set.

HsojVvad
18-08-2009, 23:19
As you said, it's a "Starter Set". GW wants to sell it's SM as the good guys, so they have to fight some bad guys. Problem is Chaos vs SM would be to similar and I believe GW wants to show some differents between the enemies and not fighting similiar enemies in a starter set.

taffeh
18-08-2009, 23:20
Would be very dull - its putting Marines vs Marines - a bit of a stale mate and doesnt really show 'starters' the wide world of elite vs horde etc....

A Guard vs CSM could keep the Imperium happy, however remember: Vanilla Marines are the poster-boys and bring the most cash in!

Lord Humongous
18-08-2009, 23:26
Chaos is also one of the least sci-fi races; with the other races you can just say (for example) "Orks in space" and people get it. Chaos takes more background explanation to appreciate (although games like "doom" create a ready audience). So non-chaos races have more immediate market pull.
I think a more subtle reason is that chaos goes against the image of marines. To an extent, 40K is space marines; its what the game is known for. Having evil, spikey marines in a starter kit would dilute, besmirch, and confuse that trademark image.
Besides, good marines vs evil marines makes for a visually boring starter set; it kinda makes it to obvious the chaos models are "marines with spikes". And chaos marines vs anybody else just doesn't have the same immediate drama.

kazkal
18-08-2009, 23:37
I'd like to see CSM vs Tau ;) mmmmmmmm starter set deal

Craftworld
18-08-2009, 23:50
I'd like two races lacking proper "starting options" represented in a box set.

I'd suggest Emperors Children versus the Ulthw Craftworld. Not only would this set offer a refreshing option to noise marines without buying fifty bitz packs, but I think from a fluff standpoint a battle between Eldar and a Slaanesh chaos group would be exciting.

The multiple ideas for in - box terrain makes me giddy.

BrotherMoses
19-08-2009, 00:00
Yeah, Space Marines vs. CSM in a starter set isn't that great of an idea from a sales pov is why they do it. They're too similar. Admittedly, they look evil with the spikey bitz and all, but its even better if they use something that really gets the point across that the space marines are the good guys. For instance, orks being big green monsters or tyranids, being... well tyranids. Why do they use Space Marines vs. orks or tyranids so far? Well, Space Marines are elite and the other armies aren't. (infantrywise, not a fan statement) This means that the space marines take fewer casualties while dishing out a lot to the enemy. This makes the space marines look cool and fun. Kind of like, "Oh well look how many of them my guys are killing, I'm good at this game AND its fun. /buy more stuff

burning crome
19-08-2009, 00:10
start set are their to demonstrate different unit types. AOBR is partially good I think at this, the only major unit type that they’ve missed is transport vehicle. So CSM would limit the number of different type of units. Of course it wouldn’t be a problem if their was no SM but they are the poster boys and the box is about getting kids in (so you need the good guys) and some like guards dieing all over the place, would be as big as pull.

Giganthrax
19-08-2009, 00:21
Im thinking the next starter sets are going to be either marines vs nids, marines vs dark or normal eldar, or marines vs orks again.

Every starter set had a focus of an elite short-range shooty army (marines) vs a horde/fragile close-combat based army (nids, dark eldar, orks). They have no reason to change this, as its a great way to get new players.

Marines vs chaos marines is basically two elite shooty/cc armies. Marines vs necrons is two elite short-range shooty armies. Marines vs tau is pretty much the same as marines vs necrons, except tau arent so capable in close combat. Hence, well never see that.

Also, every starter set is going to have marines, because they sell the best, and hence GW pushes them all the time. Its capitalism, plain and simple, no way around it.

Brother Antonios
19-08-2009, 01:56
Next starter set should be Grey Knights with inducted guard or vice versa. Then the guard can get some play and you still satisfy the Marine need and showcase them even better IMHO. Of course what do you pit against that? Daemons would be cool :)

ehlijen
19-08-2009, 02:19
One of the most important things the starter set always tries to teach is that of AP values. Marines shooting Orks/Nids shows it working, Orks/Nids shooting back shows it not working.
If you had CSM in the starter box, you'd need the other race to be 5+ mooks for that, and guard are out because humans vs humans is no way to sell your scifi game full of wierd creatures from outer space. So you're looking at evil humans vs aliens and, grimdark or not, that is hard to sell to moms and dads.

Lord Humongous
19-08-2009, 04:47
You could put in a unit of Thousand sons and / or stermguard, plus a nice sprinkling of plasma. That'll teach them about AP. But your right, having some armor saves that aren't 3+ is a good idea.

I'm gonna go out on a huge limb and suggest they should do witchunters vs cultists / LATD. New plastic SOBs, plastic cultists, etc. Never happen of course- starter box races are gonna be ones that already are popular and well supported.

Shatter
19-08-2009, 05:43
You could put in a unit of Thousand sons and / or stermguard, plus a nice sprinkling of plasma. That'll teach them about AP. But your right, having some armor saves that aren't 3+ is a good idea.

I'm gonna go out on a huge limb and suggest they should do witchunters vs cultists / LATD. New plastic SOBs, plastic cultists, etc. Never happen of course- starter box races are gonna be ones that already are popular and well supported.

I would love that idea, but Inquisition would need a codex update first. It'd be too confusing for newer players, since the Armory rules and options are different, and there's too many references to things that don't exist anymore (minor psychic powers, 5th ed Space Marines can't get a full-range psyker hood, and so on. :P ).

big squig
19-08-2009, 05:48
Some parents don't like their kids playing or collecting chaos. (actually true) So they wouldn't make for a very good intro set.

kazkal
19-08-2009, 05:54
Im thinking the next starter sets are going to be either marines vs nids, marines vs dark or normal eldar, or marines vs orks again.

Every starter set had a focus of an elite short-range shooty army (marines) vs a horde/fragile close-combat based army (nids, dark eldar, orks). They have no reason to change this, as its a great way to get new players.

Marines vs chaos marines is basically two elite shooty/cc armies. Marines vs necrons is two elite short-range shooty armies. Marines vs tau is pretty much the same as marines vs necrons, except tau arent so capable in close combat. Hence, well never see that.

Also, every starter set is going to have marines, because they sell the best, and hence GW pushes them all the time. Its capitalism, plain and simple, no way around it.


CSM=Close combat army
Tau=Long ranged army ^_^ sounds like a good mix to me
Tau make perfect good guy race since they can't be corrupted by chaos ;)

Shatter
19-08-2009, 05:56
Hmmm...battlesuits, pulse rifles and rail guns..Might evoke Gundam imagery, I could see that selling easily with the kiddies. :P

shabbadoo
19-08-2009, 06:37
I'd like two races lacking proper "starting options" represented in a box set.

Never gonna happen. Starter boxes are not about filling in missing units for various armies, and they never will be. They are about dynamic presentation of the game to newcomers. If a unit that has not been covered in plastic actually makes it in there then that is just a bonus.

someone2040
19-08-2009, 07:32
How about Ordo Xenos versus Nids or maybe Dark Eldar.
Boxed set could have an Inquisitor, squad of Deathwatch Marines, and some Storm Troopers. Don't know much about Nids or the Dark Eldar, but I'm sure something could be thrown in.
That way you've still got your posterboy Space Marines in there of sorts, but also a splash of some other stuff.
It could also coincide with an Inquisition codex and a codex of the other race that's going in.

BaronVonSnakPak
19-08-2009, 07:58
GW has a $90 and $240 set for chaos, the latter being a full 1500 point army in a box.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020050&prodId=prod1430006

Lewis
19-08-2009, 08:11
Aside from the Must Have Marines, Must Have varied AP's criteria for boxed sets I would also suggest that there is also a criteria that the non-marines must be clearly "baddies". I think starter sets want very clear imagery, and explaining why space marines are fighting Tau or Eldar doesn't offer that in the same way as "noble marines vs ravening tyranids/ rampaging orks/ rapacious dark eldar" that we've seen to date. Personally I think we'll see a repeat , probably tyranids, next time around.

Scythe
19-08-2009, 08:19
Face it, one of the races in the starter set is always going to be Space Marines. And as a starting set should always fullfill some criteria, we can be fairly certain some races will never appear in the starting set:

- Set should be 'good' vs 'evil'. This rules out IG, Tau and the Inquisition, simply because they don't have the contrast to marines.
- Set should showcase different kinds of troops. This rules out CSM and Necrons, and in lesser degree SoB / Grey Knights. Putting only T4 3+ save troops with identical statlines and bolters in a starting set is not a good way to showcase a game.
- Set should showcase basic rules, but not include too many special rules. This makes it difficult for Daemons to be included. They ignore several basic rules (fearless, invulnerable saves) while all having special ones (deep strike). Not impossible, but difficult.

This leaves only a few real candidates for inclusion in the starter set. To be honest, Orks and Tyranids are the best by far, easily fullfilling all 3 criteria above. Eldar suffer a bit from point 1, and are not really a beginner army. Dark Eldar suffer from being a minor army (but are not impossible; they have been starters before). Of course, there's always the option of a new Xenos race as starter, or Traitor Guard / Lost and the Damned, if such things are ever released.

adreal
19-08-2009, 09:21
Look at the fantasy box releases

4th ed High Elves V goblins (got pretty much two armies here)
5th ed Bretts V Lizardmen (again, pretty much two whole armies)
6th ed Empire V Orcs (not so much whole armies, but still alot)
7th ed Dwarves V Goblins (small, but complete armies)


Now fantasy doesn't have a 'marine' army, but there has always been a major difference in the starter sets. (high elves=awesome goblins=suck but lots of them) (bretts=knights, lizard=tough infantry) (Empire=shooty orcs=close combat) (dwarves=shooty hard to kill, golbins=still suck)

So a new 40K starter set has to keep the dramatic differences, you can have the bad guys (CSM) as the small elite, but the good guys need to be cool to (guard orders help, but not enough IMHO)

StormWulfen
19-08-2009, 11:14
thanks for all the replies, i do see the problem with marines vs marines in a starter set but why not give one of the other "good" armies a turn in the starter sets? i know that marines are the poster boys for GW but would one starter set with a differant race really make much differance to marine sales? i dont think so. and personaly i am getting tired of new players telling me my marines should be blue! so at least get rid of the ultramarines, we had blood angels and black templars before them so why do ultras get two editions at the top?

JHZ
19-08-2009, 13:46
We still have daemons to go through. And if GW made a start set with non-Marine mortal Chaos (muties and guardsmen), they'd sell like beer and bratwurst at Oktoberfest.

Imperius
19-08-2009, 13:53
"The starter kit is too puny for my attention foolish slave..."
-Khorne, God of Chaos about to smite the sorcerer Admiras

Shatter
19-08-2009, 14:02
Blood for the Blood God? >.>

But, unfortunately, Space Marines are the central focus of GW. I'd like to see the next starter set be Dark Eldar versus maybe...Imperial Guard or Inquisition.

Lord Humongous
19-08-2009, 18:36
I would love that idea, but Inquisition would need a codex update first. It'd be too confusing for newer players, since the Armory rules and options are different, and there's too many references to things that don't exist anymore (minor psychic powers, 5th ed Space Marines can't get a full-range psyker hood, and so on. :P ).

Yeah, they'd need a new codex. And LatD / cultists would need SOME codex- currently you can't play them, except maybe using the FW list if you like that version of the idea.
Ideally the two would be released at the same time, perhaps as part of a story line advancement that would help bring the forces to prominence.

Giganthrax
19-08-2009, 19:01
CSM=Close combat army
Tau=Long ranged army ^_^ sounds like a good mix to me
Tau make perfect good guy race since they can't be corrupted by chaos ;)
No, because theres no way in hell GW is going to make a starter set that doesnt feature loyalist marines. Were their posterboys, after all ;)

isaac
19-08-2009, 19:35
For a starter set, I think marines are great. They are elite, simple, forgiving, easy to paint and play, etc.

CSM are too close to marines in that respect.

Inquisitors are old and need an update

Imperial Guard is Imperium, otherwise they would work.

Tau might work, different from marines, a lot of plastics

Orks/Nids work and have been done

DE was done, but was unbalanced (even more so than AoBR)

Eldar could work

Daemons are chaos, parent problems, lots of metals, many special rules

Necrons are bland and similar to marines.

Unless necrons, tau, nids or DE get a new codex, I would doubt that they would appear in the next starterbox

solkan
21-08-2009, 05:31
The only way that CSM would get into the starter sets is if GW decided to do starter boxes like Privateer Press does--a single small army with a starter version of the rules--and make starter boxes for everyone. But if they did that then the starter boxes wouldn't look like a game box.

The only other alternative would be something like CSM versus Eldar, and I just can't see GW doing something as extreme as evil marines versus good aliens/elves.

isaac
21-08-2009, 07:29
That is the Battleforce+HQ+Codex

Satan
21-08-2009, 08:03
If I were product manager at GW I'd probably exclude chaos marines from any starter sets aimed at younger people, mainly due to the fact that they're extremely offensive compared to most of the other races.

This is after all a product aimed at young adults which has regressed into a new branch where it's actively marketed at younger people at an introductory stage - I don't know how they view themselves compared to the computer games industry for example (which has a similiar issue sometimes), but so long as it works for them I think they'll continue to keep overly offensive content out of the starter sets.

CrownAxe
21-08-2009, 08:20
thanks for all the replies, i do see the problem with marines vs marines in a starter set but why not give one of the other "good" armies a turn in the starter sets?

Their are no other "good" armies



Unless necrons, tau, nids or DE get a new codex, I would doubt that they would appear in the next starterbox

Well guess what?!?! All 4 of them or getting a new codex soon!!! (well maybe not Tau, but another starter set is so far down the pipeline that they probably will get a new book before then)

isaac
21-08-2009, 08:38
They have been saying that for a while, but still no new codex appears. They are up on the list but grey space marines are still coming out first. I meant that as they currently are, they will not feature in any starter boxes

ashc
21-08-2009, 11:58
When people say 'they are the next 4 army books' you do know that combined with the fantasy and LOTR releases that means a release time over over 2-3 years for all 4 of those books right?

isaac
21-08-2009, 12:18
Don't forget all the space marines that have to come between. :D

Lewis
21-08-2009, 12:50
I think we have to accept that it is always going to be either tyranids or orks for the forseeable future. It's already been orks and marines twice in the games history ( three times if you count the cut outs from rogue trader). I also think that GW are moving further and further into "game ina box" rather than "army in a box" so it will always be a two force set up.

ehlijen
21-08-2009, 12:51
I agree with satan (ironic name for his statement :p).

One of the reasons space marines are the poster boys and in every starter box is that, as the 'defenders of humanity', they are the obvious first step into the universe for the uninitiated. They are the army most people can easily identify with without having to study any source material. Who are the chaos marines? To understand what they are and what they want, you first have to know about regular marines and then who the chaos gods are to understand why they are not regular marines any more. It literally takes twice the effort to 'get' them as an army. On top of that you'd then have evil humans fighting either other humans (yay, that's gonna sell your universe full of aliens) or evil humans fighting aliens and that's just not a message GW can afford on their flagship boxset aimed at young kids (it's a small miracle that they get away with the xenophobic loyalist marines as it is). And that's before you bring in the whole deamon worshipping thing which is also causing enough problems as it is.

So they ignore all that (or try to) and go with elite super soldiers vs clear agressors in the form of alien eating/fighting machines.