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Frostmane
19-08-2009, 07:40
Before you start to read this post, a quick disclaimer, I do not have a question, nor am I ranting pro/against Necrons. I am simply posting what I noticed, and would like feedback. Please no flame wars.

I have played against the Necrons many times and thought I knew their strengths and weaknesses pretty well. I was wrong. I used my friends army and against Imperial guard in a 1500pt Annihilation game.

I used a Monolith, a Necron lord with a res orb, 2 warriors, 2 units of 3 strong wraiths and 3 full flayed ones units. I skipped Pariahs because they don't have the Necron special rule.

Once I played I noticed that while there are many tactics for Necrons to use, none of their special units really fill the roll you desire. For example, I need something in CC that either penetrates armor or at least rends, but neither Wraiths, Flayed Ones, nor Pariahs can. I want something to move quick and fair well in CC, but the Flayed Ones, the dedicated melee unit that doesn't have a range weapon, doesn't have the fleet special rule to CC quickly. While the Wraiths can get there quickly, they are only 3 strong and against a competent CC unit, will certainly be wiped out.

It seems to me that every alternative to a heavy shooty list has some massive drawbacks.

Finally, for those curious, I did win by a landslide even after I lost a full unit of Flayed Ones on a deep strike mishap.

Avarice711
19-08-2009, 08:53
first off flayed one's can with disruption fields, pariahs can cause they get 2d6 armour penetration from the warscythe and wraiths can becuase striking a vehicle in cc is always against the rear armour and at str6 they can do it half the time.

Beskins
19-08-2009, 08:58
I guess he means "rending" as Armor penetration, not vehicel killing power, only lords and pariahs have "power" weapons, but those pariahs seldom reach their goal -> CC

Latro_
19-08-2009, 09:59
So a CC necron army does not work? and this is a surprise...? lol

Carlos
19-08-2009, 10:36
It depends. I would have loads of flayed ones together with scarab swarms and then 2 lords with res orbs and warscythes and then a monolith to get them in there quickly.
Use the scarabs to hold in place any tricky ranged unit and then select the target you want with the others. Use the Lords as the kinfe edge and the volume of attacks from the flayed ones takes care of the rest.

Lord Damocles
19-08-2009, 10:59
I need something in CC that either penetrates armor or at least rends, but neither Wraiths, Flayed Ones, nor Pariahs can.
Pariahs. Warscythes.

...

No?


I want something to move quick and fair well in CC, but the Flayed Ones, the dedicated melee unit that doesn't have a range weapon, doesn't have the fleet special rule to CC quickly.
My Guard want a unit which can take a Battlecannon to the face and laugth it off. Guess what - it ain't gonna happen.

I say it every time Necrons are mentioned on Warseer, but I'm going to keep on saying it: Flayed Ones are not a front line assault unit. They're counter-assault and/or screening.


While the Wraiths can get there quickly, they are only 3 strong and against a competent CC unit, will certainly be wiped out.
Wraiths are a specialised hunter-killer unit designed to go after small squads and vehicles. They shouldn't be trying to go it alone in the assault phase unless the odds are already stacked in their favour.


It seems to me that every alternative to a heavy shooty list has some massive drawbacks.
Every alternative to an assault Guard list has massive drawbacks. This is a problem because...?



Disclaimer: As usual, I'm not here claiming that the Necron list is all hunky-dorey. It's not, and everyone can see that it's showing it's age after almost a decade without an update. What I am claiming however is that trying to force the Necron list/unit to work in a way it was never designed to is never going to end well. Who'd have guessed it?

thoughtfoxx
19-08-2009, 11:32
So a CC necron army does not work? and this is a surprise...? lol



Finally, for those curious, I did win by a landslide even after I lost a full unit of Flayed Ones on a deep strike mishap.

It seems to have worked...

Shatter
19-08-2009, 14:14
It seems to have worked...

I think he's more saying that he was disappointed that the main army's ability to hold up in CC is fairly poor. But, consider that Necrons were made to be a shooty army. When I started SM, I was horribly disappointed because Tactical Marines couldn't hold up in assault--at all, and that Vanguard couldn't make up for having all Power Weapons at all. Sometimes CC armies are hard to work with. **

**If you want an assault-heavy SM army, which is what I was trying to experiment with without going BA or BT. My Assault Terminators, while very nice, ended up being the workhorse, and it got old always needing to roll up in that Land Raider to dislodge troops in cover.

Ironically, when I went to Chaos, who did I go to but World Eaters? :D

ZenPaladin
19-08-2009, 16:09
While its true that the Necron's have gaps in their list. And things they just cant do/can't do well.

But as you may have noticed against guard you can and will win in an assault.

In fact I was pleseantly suprised by how well Necron's can do in assault with the right setup/ situation.

My recent experiances playing against my friends Mech/Shooty Marine army has shown me that rampaging Spyders work wonders. Both for absorbing shots that could be going toward phase out and for chewing up marines, tanks and dreads.

You can't mindlessly chuck a super assault unit into the enemy and win. (mainly cuz we don't have one.) But you can win with what you have in the specific instances that they were designed for.

Combat Emu
19-08-2009, 17:25
Flayed ones don't have that much success in really assaulting.
Even though i think that they can be worth their points. They can be placed and brought to the field in any way possible: deepstrike, infiltration, outflanking and old school.
You can really distract your enemy with them: You could deep strike to make assault units assault them instead of running to your warriors. You can cause havoc to some ranged troops by outflanking and you can simply draw fire by infiltrating in cover, walking to your enemy while not shot and going to ground when they get shot. This way they either reach close combat or take tons of fire which they should survive with Necron and 3+ cover. For the points of a standard warrior that's not that bad. Oh and they can be placed normally to intercept enemy cc-units or countercharge.

Corrode
19-08-2009, 17:49
I think some of the invective in here is missing the point - this isn't, as far as I can tell, a whine about OMG NECRONS SHOULD BE TEH CC MONSTERZ. It's more along the lines of 'one of the weaknesses I noticed in the Necron list is that its specialised units, particularly its close-combat units which are clearly intended to be either counter-assault elements or straight up assault specialists, often lack the abilities required to fulfil their role'.

Bonzai
19-08-2009, 19:51
If you were only 3 strong units of wraiths when you got into CC, then you weren't using them correctly. You had 6 of them, and all 6 need to work together. Even more preferable would be to get 9 of them. A wing of wraiths will annihilate most units. Especially with a destroyer Lord supporting them. Sure, they stall out on TEQs, but they are not the right tool for that job anyways. Still, they will stand up to those power fists/claws better than anything else, and with your monolith, you can warp them out, get a 2nd chance at recovering any failed WBB rolls. Then charge them back in and tie them up some more and wear them down through a battle of attrition.

Flayed ones are a melee unit, but they are really best against GEQ units. Use their scout/infiltrate/DS, and wreck havoc among their gun lines. Against a real CC unit they will fail. They are there to apply pressure, and force your opponent to make choices. You say they don't move well, but they infiltrate, move through cover, and deep strike. That's pretty good to me.

Really, I find that that is the key to playing Necrons effectively. You have to force your opponent to make choices, and face multiple threats, or he will ultimately just go for your warriors and phase you out. You need to keep him off his game, which is what units like wraiths and flayed ones do.

CrouchingTigerM
19-08-2009, 20:45
I recently (on sunday) took this list to my local GW and played against a chaos army.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214924

Was kill points and pitched battle (my faves :D)

his list roughly was

Lord in TDA with a unit of 5-6 termies

two 10 man chaos squads with glory, one heavy and one special weapon

7 man plague marine squad

Vindicator

Rhino (distraction mainly)

and a 5 man bike squad

I won 8 killpoints to 0 (nearly got one but one of my lone wraiths ran and hid)

The wraithwing took out one of the 10 man squads (all 9 wraiths and lord charged) the 5 man bike squad, then eventually the whole lord squad on their own (only 6 wraiths charged with lord) though it took 5 rounds of combat to do

In conclusion yes it is possible to pull off, just gotta have a bit of faith in the C'tan

CTM

Frostmane
19-08-2009, 23:20
I think some of the invective in here is missing the point - this isn't, as far as I can tell, a whine about OMG NECRONS SHOULD BE TEH CC MONSTERZ. It's more along the lines of 'one of the weaknesses I noticed in the Necron list is that its specialised units, particularly its close-combat units which are clearly intended to be either counter-assault elements or straight up assault specialists, often lack the abilities required to fulfil their role'.

Right on the nose.
I was simply comparing the special units of other armies to the Necron special units. While the Necrons are amazing in shooty lists, just trying to supplement that list with some melee leaves you wanting. If I take wraiths I lose a Destroyer or the mobile cover scarabs. I take Pariahs and they are shot down immediately because they don't have the necron special rule that allows WWBB or the ability to be held in reserve and be called by the monolith. In addition, they have only one attack each and a 3 initiative. Not really a CC power house. Run them into some wolf guard with lightning claws and the Pariahs are done. But if I do sub in Pariahs or Flayed Ones, I lose an Immortal pick which could be much more valuable.

So there is this element of I sacrifice my shootyness to have some melee support that doesn't do the job as well as my opponents melee. I am not saying that these units don't have a use, I used them quite successfully. I am saying that its hard to have diversity in a list when the shooty units do their job so much better than the melee option.