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View Full Version : Forgeworld & Specialist games:A marriage made in heaven??



TWB
10-01-2006, 13:40
Recently I've been thinking about the niche armies that Forgeworld could produce in the wake of the hugely popular Ellysians, Tallarn and the Cadian upgrade kits. Troops and Vehicles mentioned in various Black Library publications and various other units that are mentioned but unlikely to ever be realised by GW.
Gaunts Ghosts could easily spawn 3-4 regiments alone, Including the Men of Tanith themselves. The Blood Pact, I'm sure, would be popular, even if it was just upgrades for the Cadian kit although I am certain all of the vehicles they use would be a popular addition (stalk tank anyone?).

Then it occured to me, Forgeworld could produce kits for our favourite Specialist games, they already did some astounding models for Epic and BFG maybe they could expand into the 28mm games such as Necromunda and Mordheim, Looking at the componants available for the standard Elysian squad (see attachment) there is more than enough scope for a set of 10 ganger models (with a seperate Heavy & Leader kit) which would be able to satisfy most players, especially at the price tag of 35 quid, it's not much more than you'd end up paying anyway for a gang these days and I know at least two people who would look at assembling an entire Imperial Guard army from a specific gang.

So what do you think? Forgeworld enters the underhive? Would you buy a gang kit from Forgeworld?

Appologies to Mordheim players, but I don't know enough about the game to comment on it.

Inquisitor Samos
10-01-2006, 14:02
I think that such a thing would be glorious, from a technical standpoint!

My only real concern would be whether a conversion or full gang set could be done with sufficient variations in it for an affordable price. To my mind, the Elysian kits are pushing the edge of affordability; if a gang set had to be more expensive, I have to wonder if it'd sell well enough to be viable.

Chaos and Evil
10-01-2006, 14:09
You also have to consider whether the market would support gang kits... FW items need a reasonable ammount of demand in order to stay profitable.

starlight
10-01-2006, 14:26
It's one of those things that, a year ago, I'd say yes, but now GW seems to be making more and more questionable choices, so much as I'd like to see it happen, I don't have any faith in their ability to do it well.:(

Likely we'd just end up with stuff that is *less* useful and *more* expensive.:(

But *if* they could do it without screwing it up, I'd love to see it.:D

TWB
10-01-2006, 17:56
My only real concern would be whether a conversion or full gang set could be done with sufficient variations in it for an affordable price. To my mind, the Elysian kits are pushing the edge of affordability; if a gang set had to be more expensive, I have to wonder if it'd sell well enough to be viable.

That's part of the reason I Included the Ellysian instruction sheet, as a Guide to what a 10 Man squad gives you in variation, the thing about theEllysian kits is the fact that you need to make an armt of them, I'd consider a single outlay in that sort of price bracket for a gang a hell of a lot more reasonable than having to buy 5-6 squads to make an army.


You also have to consider whether the market would support gang kits... FW items need a reasonable ammount of demand in order to stay profitable.

Is that how FW works though? You see the release of things like the Anphelion base (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/anphelionbase.htm) or the Imperial fortress walls (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/fortp.htm) and you have to wonder what the demand for such items is, I'm sure the Necromunda gangs could shift a lot more units. Part of my reason for posting this was to see if the people who play necromunda are the same people who buy from FW, the same people who would pay a little more for nice models, instead of the pieces of occupational therapy that SG produced.


It's one of those things that, a year ago, I'd say yes, but now GW seems to be making more and more questionable choices, so much as I'd like to see it happen, I don't have any faith in their ability to do it well.:(

Likely we'd just end up with stuff that is *less* useful and *more* expensive.:(

But *if* they could do it without screwing it up, I'd love to see it.:D

GW's decision making has been wobbly for a long time IMO, they were just lucky up till now. The making of the models by FW takes GW's brainfarts out of the equasion, dumping the only real responsibility (making nice looking models) firmly in the capable laps of people like Will Hayes, Simon Egan, Daniel Cockersell and Mark Bedford.

orangesm
10-01-2006, 18:18
FW makes models they think are cool and that do not exist otherwise. There is no where the demand for say a Ramilles Starfort as there is for a Emporer Class Battleship - thus FW creates the model for the big fans. FW is in no way a huge money maker, it charges plenty of cash per model, but this is partial because they are resin and the demand just isnt that high.

FW can and might just pick up the slack in regards to the Specialist range of games, especially if when you order something from FW you mention - 'I would like to see Chaos Epic minis' or 'I would like to see a Gaunts Ghost range of minis' etc. They take our input and make stuff based on that and what the sculptors want to do. Who is honestly going to purchase the Manta for 40k? Well maybe 1 in 100 Tau players, that isnt exactly a huge market. The guys at forgeworld make models that are cool and that you are not likely to see out of GW.

If GW adopts say a 40k scale mini from FW into its normal armylist it will generally create a plastic or metal kit for it I would suspect - example being the Pirana (sp?) and Sky Ray for the Tau Empire release. This model already exist along with the rules thanks to FW and so all GW has to do is create the plastic models.

Agamemnon2
10-01-2006, 18:24
I wish FW would just make an Epic-scale Imperator and Warmonger Titans. I'd buy both instantly.

Brimstone
10-01-2006, 18:40
I was dreading the eventual rescupts of the Escher but a FW version yes please, I'd buy them in a instant.

t-tauri
10-01-2006, 20:01
Forgeworld are responsive to demand. The Cadian kits had been asked for at the last few Games Days. I think if the same kind of pester power is applied then we'd see some of these ideas come to fruition.

I'd really like to see a lot more figures and conversion kits. Certainly the blood Pact and the Stalk Tanks. I'd also be in the market for quality gangs and warbands for the skirmish games, though I'd be concerned if the resin would stand up to the abuse of a Necromunda game being stood up and laid down in among terrain.

nanktank
10-01-2006, 22:13
If a gang came with as many options as those ellysians I would be prepared buy one, although only as a one off.

Username
10-01-2006, 22:58
I would liek to see new forgeworld models for specialist games, are you listening games workship?

orangesm
10-01-2006, 23:06
We could point out this thread to Forgeworld - unless of course they are already reading it.

But yes there are quiet a few projects that seem fairly simple that FW could do in a variety of Specialist Ranges that would be awesome.

Used-up-User
10-01-2006, 23:22
FW should do Epic Tyrnaids.

orangesm
10-01-2006, 23:28
The models for Tyrnaids already exist - GW just needs to start selling them again. They were released back with Epic 40,000. But yes there should be a general re-release of all things that GW has in the way of Epic so FW can figure out what gaps it needs to fill.

TWB
10-01-2006, 23:58
Forgeworld are responsive to demand. The Cadian kits had been asked for at the last few Games Days. I think if the same kind of pester power is applied then we'd see some of these ideas come to fruition.

I'm sure I can rustle up some pester ;)


I'd really like to see a lot more figures and conversion kits. Certainly the blood Pact and the Stalk Tanks. I'd also be in the market for quality gangs and warbands for the skirmish games, though I'd be concerned if the resin would stand up to the abuse of a Necromunda game being stood up and laid down in among terrain.
I don't think it's quite as fragile as all that but you can always use counters instead :p Although I suppose if they can do an battlefield accessory pack for the Ellysians they can do a couple of downed fighters :D :D

fracas
11-01-2006, 00:26
i've asked FW for epic Dark Eldar

Makaber
11-01-2006, 01:29
Imagine Forge World Blood Bowl teams. Mmmm, footballishious.

Ubik_Lives
11-01-2006, 09:50
Since I own a rather sizeable Tau BFG Fleet from Forgeworld, I can say that I'm quite happy for them to pick up the slack on the Specialist Games range.

One thing to note is the cost of the Forgeworld Tau Fleet was rather similar to that of the Specialist Games one. If you look at the cost of the Tau Epic models they produce, you can see that they cost much more than the plastic ones that you get from GW. So for BFG and Necromunda I can see them being viable, but not for the Epic scale games. The infantry is just too expensive on that scale.

The Judge
11-01-2006, 13:33
If they did everything they did in 40K scale and converted it into Epic, I'd be a very happy man - we need Epic bombards, griffons and leman russ! Plus 'nids of course...

Forgeworld could do so well out of me and other veteran players if they started selling gangs and blood bowl teams - but could make a bit more if they sculpted Blood Pact, Stalk tanks etc, and the ENTIRE Tanith regiment.

Of course the problem with doing stuff out of the books is that not everyone is going to agree on what they look like.

firestorm40k
11-01-2006, 15:46
I wish FW would just make an Epic-scale Imperator and Warmonger Titans. I'd buy both instantly.

I actually e-mailed them to request this a few months back, and I got a reply saying that they've plans for more 40k Titans, but it said nowt about Epic.

On the SG forum & EpiComms there's been huge discussion about GW's decreasing support for Epic, and whether GW are likely to rerelease the Epic Chaos & 'Nid stuff (both of which I would buy in bulk!). If GW are decreasing support for Epic minis, then I personally support lobbying FW to produce them. I already own 4 of their Epic Warhounds! :D And the Epic Tau are also popular, not to mention their Grey Knights. I think if FW produced other Epic minis it would be hugely popular.

Son of Morkai
11-01-2006, 18:17
I would like it if Forge World made a multipiece 40k Inquisitor Retinue set. It's not that I mind all of the converson to make a nice looking retinue, but it would be a lot easier if I could get a single set with a nice variety of weapons and some Inquisitorial symbols already in place instead of needing to buy 3 different sprues, 7 bits, and a kitchen sink just to make 3-5 models...

But as to picking up Specialist Games' slack... Good idea. I've never bothered to start a gang for Necromunda because the cost of ordering is so high, but the miniature range so limited. If they made them multipiece sets, then the second problem goes away. And I can deal with the cost. I have a spare kidney I can sell.

t-tauri
11-01-2006, 18:20
There is a Forgeworld Inquisitor (and retinue?) coming for use with the Anaphelion Project in Imperial Armour 4.

Son of Morkai
11-01-2006, 18:31
There is a Forgeworld Inquisitor (and retinue?) coming for use with the Anaphelion Project in Imperial Armour 4.
But I haven't seen any mention about it being a multipiece set. Otherwise it's not much different from now, just some new options. And if they're too Ordo Xenos-y... yeah.

Gen_eV
12-01-2006, 11:43
I'd love to see FW make a necromunda range. If they split them into the right packages, it'd be easy to make up an IG force from them as well.

The best way to do it would be for each House to have three basic kits - Gangers, Juves, Command.
Command would include a leader, two heavies, and one of each Heavy/Special weapon. If people want duplicates, they could buy a separate Heavy Weapons Pack, common to all gangs.
Gangers and Juves would come in two 'flavours,' with either 100% Assault weapons or 100% Rifles. This would appease anyone who'd want an IG force, as they wouldn't be forced into wasting cash on loads of redundant pistols. (Allowing Juves rifles would be for IG Conscripts)
As before, additional weapons could be bought in a separate pack.

It would be a relatively simple system, but flexible enough to allow people to tailor their gangs quite nicely. It would also allow for people to not waste tooo much money on a load of redundant figures, especially if the models came in packs of four or so. Whilst that inittially feels a little low, you have to remember the Titan Crew/Tau Air Caste come in packs of three.

Oh, and make that three people you know who'd buy an entire FW Necromunda-based IG force. I couldn't resist building up an entire Delaque army if only I had more variety in poses.

violenceha
12-01-2006, 11:52
i'd love some forgeworld bloodbowl teams, stadium, coaching staff etc...

Sai-Lauren
12-01-2006, 13:09
I'm sure I can rustle up some pester ;)

How about a "Excuse us Mr. Tony Cottrell, we would like..." thread.

As a start
Yes, I'd certainly like some FW Eschers, they'd go nicely into the 2nd company of my Escher guard army :D
But additional weapon booster packs, scenery (water stills, barricades with toll gates and similar scenery) would be nice generally, and if you're doing the Eschers, then you might as well do the other gangs (and they'd do my planned Goliath LaTD and partly in progress Orlock/Van Saar/Delaque guard armies nicely as well :D).

Don't play mordheim, but the figures are certainly usable in WFB, so I'd possibly buy some. Same for scenery as Necromunda.

BFG - well, there's already some (like the fighters), but booster packs for sector specific designs (like the Armageddon prow). Add in more defence platforms and similar, possibly some asteroid fields and so on.

Epic - already seems to be well catered for.

Warmaster - more scenery, maybe a few more units, possibly do the Man O'War re-release/naval battles version of Warmaster Rick Priestly mentioned years ago through FW.

Inquisitor - booster packs, variant model packs, new models (where's the Callidus, seeing as we have the Vindicare and Eversor? What about a fully armoured Sororitas? I'd certainly have one just for display), scenery.
Basically, as under SG, but in resin not pewter.

Old School
13-01-2006, 14:18
Yeah FW BB teams would be great, I'd buy some. The latest GW BB models have stunk! The new elves and human teams are horrendous.

Chem-Dog
17-01-2006, 16:53
I would love to see some Necromunda stuff in resin, the gangs would be great, I'd be one of those using Cawdor models for a Redemptionist based 40k army, giant spiders would be popular to more than Necro players, maybe even some terrain pieces would be good. It'd be good if they could cover Inquisitor too, a 54mm Elysian would be glorious.

tkkultist
17-01-2006, 18:15
I have to agree with agamemnon2 - those titans would be sweet.

de Selby
17-01-2006, 19:10
It does seem like a perfect match in some ways, although forgeworld currently has the freedom to plug holes and invent new things within the framework of existing ranges, and they'd be a lot more constrained if, for example, they were responsible for producing all the gangs for Necromunda and not just a few Necromunda-compatible figs of their own choosing.

IMO forgeworld 28mm figs are the best things they do (oddly, GW's strongest WOW-factor products recently have been large model kits; the carnifex and the imminent giant kit, and maybe baneblades and gargants to come. Isn't this the wrong way round?), and I too have my own wishlist of 40k related stuff. I'd love to see Forgeworld genestealer cults, for example.

Gen_eV
17-01-2006, 20:06
they'd be a lot more constrained if, for example, they were responsible for producing all the gangs for Necromunda and not just a few Necromunda-compatible figs of their own choosing.


Yes, but then they were equally if not more constrained when making the Tallarn range. Those models had to maintain consistency with the existing range (especially after the decision not to make any standard infantry models), whilst any Necromunda figures are likely to be bought as complete gangs. This would allow FW to have a lot more freedom in changing the look of the gangs.

Plus, it's not actually that many models. Assuming FW produced kits in the format I suggested, it's only around a dozen individual models per gang, with posability and shuffling of components accounting for as much variety as anyone is likely to need.

TWB
18-01-2006, 22:26
I don't think that Necro gangs need to be split into Ganger/Heavy/Juve categories, Ganger sized models will serve well enough for all (juves don't stay juves for long, Heavies are usually identifyable by their armament and leaders are the _best_ guy in your gang), If the format of the Ellysians is taken as an example, Six leg variants, two torsos two or three different heads would make a great amount of variation. Armaments can be split between the options fairly easily if not made seperate to the arms (like the Catachans instead of the Cadians) an accessory pack could be a universal upgrade kit with things like rare equipment, bionics (perhaps Forgeworld could produce a Bionics sprue like GW should have done) and holsters/scabbards etc, probably a seperate heavy weapon set too (but the heavy and accessory sprues would have other applications)

Sticking to the Ellysian comparrison, 10 gangers would cost 35 whereas a gang of 8 of the old GW metals costs 20 add another two gangers at 3 each, you've got a metal gang that costs 26 for 10 static pose models (with pre-decided weapons fitted) .

And then there's the Forgeworld detailing . . . . .

Inquisitor Samos
19-01-2006, 14:42
Having thought about it at more length, I'd very probably buy a Forge World-produced Necromunda gang. They really wouldn't be that much more expensive, and it's not like one has to have all that many figures for a good game, after all! And as you point out, TWB, the detailing would undoubtably be superb!

My original concerns over affordability were tainted by 40K thoughts, since it takes considerably more FW Cadians or Elysians to make a credible force than it would in the case of Necro gangers.)

While I'd at it, I have to say I think Forge World would do a bang-up job of producing figures and accessories for Inquisitor, as well!

fracas
22-01-2006, 11:12
i got the Taros campaign Imperial Armour book recently.
It was a gorgeous presentation and seemless integration of the GW games from epic to bfg to 40k.
Perhaps this is what GW should be doing more of

orangesm
22-01-2006, 17:03
I agree on the Taros Campaign idea and integration of everything. I think this is the first time anyone has taken a war (Brush War for the Imperials, major conflict for the Tau) and described it. More of this should definitely be done.

my_name_is_tudor
22-01-2006, 18:06
FW are already making the best selection of models available for Epic and arguably BFG, I think it would be in FW, GW and the hobbyist's best interests if Specialist Games moved entirely over to FW.

The Judge
23-01-2006, 17:15
Entirely indeed - the Forgeworld crew even seem better at rules presentation than some of the internet games support - very organised.

my_name_is_tudor
23-01-2006, 17:40
Indeed. To me it seems like a perfect way of harnessing FW's passion for the fluff and the 'deeper' game. FW and Specialist Games are practically the same thing - with one merely focussed more on the models, and the other on the games. If they were essentially amalgamated, we would have the passion for the games systems of people like Jervis Johnson, combined with the stylistic genius, and attention to fluff detail, or the FW design team.

And if GW are bringing FW closer to the main company, then perhaps we will see a change in this direction some time soon.

Flame of Udun
25-01-2006, 00:16
Hi all, first posting here for me, although I have been watching from the sidelines for some time now:) . I totally agree with this idea, I think FW are often to be found picking up the GW slack and they should definitely get involved in the specialist games area far more. Although I've never really gotten into Necromunda I did used to play alot of Mordheim and would consider giving it a whirl again if FW started to churn out some gubbinz. After what they've done for the Tau and 'Nids and so on I reckon it's about hight time for them to do something like this.

my_name_is_tudor
25-01-2006, 11:00
We should start a petition. Honestly, this idea is the sort of thing GW would probably actually consider doing - it effectively gets Specialist Games of their back, without them letting down the fans, and at the same time delivering to the fans an even better range of models. And I'm sure the FW team would love the chance to really make their mark on GW games, and to put out a really wide range of models.

I may write a letter to some of the movers and shakers involved in this area - any ideas who I should address to?

rkunisch
25-01-2006, 12:06
First of all, petitions are very seldom working. The other problem is the capacity of Forge World. Compared to mainstream GW, Forge World has a slow release schedule. There are simply not enough people working there. I do not know if (and then how much) their production facility is a bottle-neck. Although, I have to admit that any progress would be far better than the actual stagnation. :(

Have fun,

Rolf.

Jedi152
25-01-2006, 12:36
@TWB. Best idea ever!

Unfortunatly most FW designers seem to be content making space marine shoulder pads for every chapter under the sun, or rediculously large stuff no-one can ever afford!

GW would claim that multipart gangers would harm their sales of normal metal gangs most probably. Same reason they won't let FW do a Tallern squad.

Flame of Udun
25-01-2006, 22:32
I know it's a long shot but it would definitely be worth a try, I would perhaps make some informal enquiries at FW and GW first before leaping straight in but I'd certainly support a petition or whatever.

boogle
25-01-2006, 23:36
@TWB. Best idea ever!

Unfortunatly most FW designers seem to be content making space marine shoulder pads for every chapter under the sun, or rediculously large stuff no-one can ever afford!

GW would claim that multipart gangers would harm their sales of normal metal gangs most probably. Same reason they won't let FW do a Tallern squad.
despite the fact they just recently ditched the Old Orlock, Ratskin, Scavvy and Goliath Metal models?, i think that FW Necromunda models would be one of the biggest sellers out there, and would generate lots and lots of cash (and hopefully look a lot better than the new metal gangs look)