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r3flexx
19-08-2009, 21:24
How do the beastmaster's get hit if they have the bulk of the hydra rule? Does it depend on what the charging unit hits? So for example if they charge the Hydra and make contact with a beastmaster, then the beastmaster is attacked? Or does it not matter what is charged and is it decided on a roll of the dice who is attacked? Also if I have leftover dice from my magic phase, can I save them and use them as dispel dice? Also how long can I keep those dice? Finally, am I limited to the amount of times I can cast in 1 turn and if so can I use the same spell as many times as I want? I let my friend borrow the BRB and were going to play in a few days, so I was wondering about this rule. Thanks.

chippyman64
19-08-2009, 21:59
ok when the hydra get into combat all models in the unit to get the most models in combat inc the hydra and masters if possible. I recomend you as you seem to be quite a new WFB player: 1.read the rulebook- i still find out new things from reading it
2. Play a full scale 1.5k pts with a gw staff member.

PeG
19-08-2009, 22:10
The rules for how to play the hydra is not as simple as it may sound and it has been debated here a few times before. The conclusion seems to be to ignore the beastmasters when charging the hydra unit and then line them up to maximize base to base contact.

Playing games is always a good way to learn especially if you combine this with reading the rules. Be aware that not all GW staff (or of course other players) actually knows the rules.

For the use of power and dispel dice this is clearly explained in the rules. but in summary you can cast as long as you have dice but unless you have special rules (ie for example play vampires) you can only make one attempt on each spell you know. You can also normally only use one more dice then your level to try to cast each spell ie a level 1 wizard can use two dice etc. Finally without special rules or magical items you can not save dice from one phase to another.

mr_vespa
19-08-2009, 22:16
Alright, when the Hydra gets into CC, the beastmasters rank up beside it to engage their foe. However (correct me if I'm wrong on this, I don't have my DE book on me atm), the beastmasters cannot be directly targeted as long as the Hydra is alive. This answer considers you optimizing your charges, e.g. your opponent ranks up a maximum of models in B2B with your models and vice-versa.

As for power dice being saved, this cannot normally happen. Some armies (VC, Lizardmen, Empire, for instance) may equip special items that allow them to store unused power dice to use them as dispel dice in a subsequent magic phase.

Normally, spells cannot be cast more than once per caster, e.g. an Empire Bright Wizard using Lore of Fire could not cast Fireball twice in the same magic phase, but another Bright Wizard could cast it (again, only once).

Chippy has thrown you some good advice IMO. Re-reading the book will give much insight, and talking to veterans/GW staffers will point you in the right direction. Cheers!

stripsteak
19-08-2009, 22:32
Alright, when the Hydra gets into CC, the beastmasters rank up beside it to engage their foe. However (correct me if I'm wrong on this, I don't have my DE book on me atm), the beastmasters cannot be directly targeted as long as the Hydra is alive. This answer considers you optimizing your charges, e.g. your opponent ranks up a maximum of models in B2B with your models and vice-versa.

not completely right, anythign that would randomly distribute ie shooting only hit the hydra. in cc models that can attack the hydra must do so, models that cant attack the hydra are free to attack the handlers.



hHHh
eeeeee

the two e's on either end could attack the handers since they are not able to attack the hydra. however all 4 middle e have to attack the hydra.

jaxom
19-08-2009, 22:43
What stripsteak said.

I believe that it is also the case that when charging the hydra unit, handlers are ignored and the only model on the table for purposes of the charge is the Hydra so you aren't ever really going to impact a handler.

Once you have hit, you form a battle line as stripsteak drew it and sure enough if you are more than 100mm wide something is going to be swinging at a handler.

mr_vespa
19-08-2009, 23:10
That's the loophole I forgot, right. Anything that could theoretically direct its attacks at the beastmasters can't as long as it can direct them at the hydra itself. However, troops in B2B with the beastmasters not touching the hydra can butcher them gleefully.

r3flexx
20-08-2009, 00:44
What happens if I have leftover dice from a magic phase? (or should I not have any leftover dice)

mr_vespa
20-08-2009, 00:45
Unfortunately, if your army lacks items to store them, they are simply discarded and lost.

r3flexx
20-08-2009, 00:50
I have a 1k army and it has only 1 lvl 2 mage in it. In this topic I heard both that a magic user can cast only 1 and as many spells as long as he has dice. So let's clear it up with this example: am I allowed to cast Bladewind 3x (8 minimum to cast) if I can get the spell off with my dice?

r3flexx
20-08-2009, 01:15
nevermind. I re-read the topic.

snowywlf
20-08-2009, 14:10
I have a 1k army and it has only 1 lvl 2 mage in it. In this topic I heard both that a magic user can cast only 1 and as many spells as long as he has dice. So let's clear it up with this example: am I allowed to cast Bladewind 3x (8 minimum to cast) if I can get the spell off with my dice?

If you look at the exact wording, everyone's response on this has actually been correct. I will lay it out in a (hopefully) more clear manner though.

Each wizard knows X number of spells.

Each wizard may only attempt to cast each of his spells once. For example, my wizard knows Fireball and Burning Head. He may attempt to cast Fireball once per turn. He may attempt to cast Burning Head once per turn. If he has any remaining dice, they are discarded.

There are some exceptions to this, but they are very clearly marked in the Army Book that it effects.

Each wizard may attempt to cast as many spells as he likes as long as he follows the basic rules:

1. Only cast each spell once per turn.
2. Enough Power Dice to fuel the spells.

As was mentioned earlier, if you have two wizards with the same spell, each wizard is able to attempt the spell per turn. They are independent casters.

For more details, please reference page 107 in the Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook in the section labeled "Casting Spells".

Hope that clears it up. :)

Milgram
20-08-2009, 14:53
Once you have hit, you form a battle line as stripsteak drew it and sure enough if you are more than 100mm wide something is going to be swinging at a handler.

with 20mm bases you need 5 models (100 mm) to get one in contact with the handlers only, with 25mm bases it is 5 (125 mm). with <50 mm you can avoid the handlers completely by placing the charger in the center of the front.

jaxom
20-08-2009, 15:00
It is impossible to avoid the handlers completely even if you are a single 20mm model. Maximizing required that you wind up at a corner of the Hydra to engage two models. Tactically, it is generally to your benefit to attack the handlers anyway if you can because they are much easier to kill than the Hydra (lacking all the defenses) and that gives you an easy way to eliminate some of the attacks.

Milgram
20-08-2009, 16:53
when charging or be charged, handle the hydra as a monster. aligning in the middle of the hydra is then no problem, as the handlers are ignored for that part. the handlers are after the aligning process formed up to the hydra as skirmishers. meaning behind the hydra, if the 40mm charger aligns to the middle of the hydra.

Atrahasis
20-08-2009, 16:58
No, as soon as contact is made the unit forms up like skirmishers, so a single 20/25mm model would have corner to corner contact with the hydra, full contact with one handler, and corner contact with the other handler.

jaxom
20-08-2009, 17:28
Good point, Atra... I forgot you had the option of



HHhh
x

Milgram
20-08-2009, 20:12
if the monster charges, yes, you can argue like that. but 'completely ignored' sounds to me as if you do not have to align properly to the monster - as long as you properly charge the monster. p. 67

indeed they are placed as soon as the contact is made. but that is too late. unless you like to shuffle, and even then it is not 100% clear that you have to get the handlers into contact. btw: we do shuffle/slide and it never occured to us that something smaller actually charged the hydra. but we would probably shuffle the whole thing in order to get the handlers into contact. however... there are enough people that do not shuffle and they obviously do not have to get more handlers into contact.

jaxom
20-08-2009, 21:05
Since the Hydra (and handlers) align as skirmishers after contact, a comment that you don't maximize implies that you don't dress ranks when someone charges other skirmishers?

In the situation where a single 25mm hero charges a unit of 20mm skirmishers can I (the charger) line up so that I specifically choose whether I am adjacent to 2 or 3 models? By charging I could arrange to hit 15mm of one model and then when you aligned the skirmishers I would only be basing 2. Or I could hit with one edge flush in which case I would base 3. You're arguing that the skirmishers would not be aligned to maximize models?

Milgram
21-08-2009, 06:25
Since the Hydra (and handlers) align as skirmishers after contact,

the hydra does not align as skirmisher. the hydra is handled as a monster, the handlers are aligned as skirmishers only.

Lord Dan
21-08-2009, 17:41
Do impact hits from chariots and other sources hit beastmasters, as they randomize like shooting hits?

theunwantedbeing
21-08-2009, 17:54
Do impact hits from chariots and other sources hit beastmasters, as they randomize like shooting hits?

No, if the hits are randomised they never hit the handlers, always the hydra.