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VC Billy
20-08-2009, 16:54
In another thread someone brought up that the Ring of Hotek offer no protection from the Comet of Cassandora. I disagree, but recently became aware that others feel the same. Is there any sort of general consensus on this?

beaumontbrawler
20-08-2009, 17:07
In another thread someone brought up that the Ring of Hotek offer no protection from the Comet of Cassandora. I disagree, but recently became aware that others feel the same. Is there any sort of general consensus on this?

Consensus = "ring of hotek = broken" = always default in favor of the guy who is not being a cheesy git! :D

Lord Zarkov
20-08-2009, 17:09
If the caster of the comet, or it's target (the point on the ground) are within the required distance when the spell is cast then the ring will work as normal. Obviously, once the spell has been cast the ring won't do anything, regardless of how big the comet gets.

The comet can though be cast outside the radius of the ring (and so not be affected), while still affecting models within when it comes down, therefore circumventing the ring's protection.

fubukii
20-08-2009, 17:16
^ Incorrect


Q. Do area of effect spells such as Wind of
Undeath miscast on a double if they affect any
model within 12" of the Ring of Hotek? And
how about spells that do not specify a target
location until after they have been
successfully cast?
A. Neither of these are affected by the Ring of
Hotek, as such spells are not ‘targeted’ at any
specific point before being cast


therefore the ring does not offer protection vs comet

Atrahasis
20-08-2009, 17:19
That FAQ is irrelevant, as Comet has a target -- the point on the ground that is targeted.

PeG
20-08-2009, 17:20
But the comet actually does target a specific point on the board which is an important difference compared to the spells mentioned in the FAQ. I cant see any argument for why the ring would not have and effect on the comet with the restrictions mentioned by Lord Zarkov

...a few seconds to late..

Atrahasis
20-08-2009, 17:22
No Zarkov, fubukii is incorrect - he's applying an FAQ answer about spells with no target to a spell that does have a target.

fubukii
20-08-2009, 17:28
Comet does not specify a point until it is casted, therefore it follows the faq.

"And
how about spells that do not specify a target
location until after they have been
successfully cast?"

Thats key. here is comets entry

this spell can be cast upon any fixed point on the tabletop.> >if successfully cast<<, place a suitable marker over the exact spot affected- a small coin is ideal for this.

Therefore theres no target prior Until after the spell is successfully casted thus being immune to the ring of hotek

meaning i was right :)

Condottiere
20-08-2009, 17:33
I dislike RoH, but I think the Comet does have a specific target.

Atrahasis
20-08-2009, 17:40
You're ignoring "This spell can be cast on a fixed point on the tabletop."

Unless you're suggesting that:

Flaming Sword
Conflagration of Doom
Commandment of Brass
Transmutation of Lead
Spirit of the Forge
Steed of Shadows
Unseen Lurker
Pit of Shades
Oxen Stands
Wolf Hunts
Portent of Far
Forked Lightning
Uranon's Thunderbolt
Comet of Casandora
Healing Energy
Dazzling Brightness
Mistress of the Marsh
Howler Wind
Rain Lord
Steal Soul
Doom & Darkness

....among others don't target and therefore aren't subject to Ring of Hotek or Magic Resistance.

That's absurd.

Cobbicus
20-08-2009, 17:47
What fubukii is trying to say is that you don't declare where you are putting comet until it has already been cast. Which means that when you roll your dice you do not have a target, therefore the ring does not affect it.

Atrahasis
20-08-2009, 17:50
I know what he's trying to say, it's just wrong :)

Comet is "cast on" a point on the tabletop. That point is the target. His reasoning, that we don't mark the point until the spell is "successfully cast", is flawed because 20 of the other spells in the rulebook use the same wording/structure, and no-one has ever claimed they have no target.

fubukii
20-08-2009, 18:01
the other spells say target one unit, thus making them different from comet so they have a specific target you are nominating a target unit/character

comet is not targeting a location. until its cast.

for example rain lord

this spell can be cast on an enemy unti visible to the caster and within 24 inches if successfully cast the target unit is drenched

you picked your target, aka the enemy unit, The effect only takes place if successfully cast but a target is picked prior to the cast. thus different.

you are choosing to ignore the wording of comet and trying to bend the words of spells to seem similar when they are not.

comet specifically falls under the faq.

xragg
20-08-2009, 18:18
Older versions of comet had you choose the spot after the spell was cast, but that is irrelavent. I was under the impression that you picked the point as part of casting now, until I was starting to quote it in response of this post. The odd use of verb tense made me wonder. Now I believe the verbage was not just a mistake, but intentional.

"The spell can be cast upon any fixed point on the tabletop. If successfully cast, place a suitable marker ..."

The use of "can be" made it sound to be as if you had an option, but they never give you an option. The verb "can be" also means "to possibly occur" or indicating a possible occurance. In other words, the possiblity to cast upon any fixed point may occur. In this case, the possibility would depend on the succesful casting of the spell. I doubt this makes much sense, but it makes me wonder. I hate breaking anything down like this, but it just didnt read write to me.

Atrahasis
20-08-2009, 18:25
Why is the fact it says unit different?

There might be 5 units within 24", it doesn't talk about a specific one until after successfully cast, exactly like Comet.

Necromancy Black
20-08-2009, 23:23
this spell can be cast on an enemy unit visible to the caster and within 24 inches if successfully cast the target unit is drenched

WTF are you on about?

Wording of the spell above which you say the ring works against: "this spell can be cast on an enemy unit"

Wording from the Comet: "This spell can be cast upon any fixed point on the tabletop."

BUT, for some reason the first spell can trigger the ring but the second one can not??!?

If you believe the comet can't trigger the ring, come up with another argument, could you've don the hard work and proven your own argument wrong yourself.

Sarah S
20-08-2009, 23:24
Well the first step of casting a spell is to nominate the spell and its target... so...

Necromancy Black
20-08-2009, 23:50
Well the first step of casting a spell is to nominate the spell and its target... so...

Doesn't always work though, as there are spells that say you don't nominate a target or direction until after it's been cast. Burning Head comes to mind, as does the Dark Elf spell (forgot the name of it, Black Horror maybe?)

But mostly that is how it's done, though I don't think that was the point he was arguing.

theunwantedbeing
20-08-2009, 23:59
In another thread someone brought up that the Ring of Hotek offer no protection from the Comet of Cassandora. I disagree, but recently became aware that others feel the same. Is there any sort of general consensus on this?

It doesnt offer any protection at all.
Provided neither the caster nor the point targetted are within range of the ring of hotek's effect when the spell is cast.

The reason people think it doesnt work is because they hate the ring of hotek so much that they are simply incapable of seeing reason and so see what they want to see when they read the rules.
It's quite sad as it is just a game.

VC Billy
21-08-2009, 00:02
Well the first step of casting a spell is to nominate the spell and its target... so...

Exactly, and the Comet has the same type of wording as Healing Energy.

"This spell may be cast upon the wizard himself or upon any friendly model anywhere on the tabletop, even if engaged in close combat. No line of sight is required.

If successfully cast, the model regains 1 wound suffered during the game..."

I dont think anyone would contend this doesn't have a target before the power dice are thrown. It references "the model" as a target already determined. Just as the Comet references "the exact spot". However you dice it up it's still a target. I don't understand how it's a twist of words. :confused:

Kayosiv
21-08-2009, 00:19
Looking at the exact wording of the spell;

"This spell can be cast upon any fixed point on the tabletop. If successfully cast, place a suitable marker over the exact spot affected - a small coin is ideal for this."

I can see where there would be some debate, but I think the ring would in fact grant miscasts on any double if the spot (which I believe to be chosen before trying to cast) was within 12" of the bearer of the ring of Hotek. By the wording of the spell it seems like the "spot affected" must be chosen before the spell is successfully cast or not.

Necromancy Black
21-08-2009, 00:44
Ah, I missed that sort of veiwpoint, but I think your right. The marker is only place after the spell is cast, but by the wording you must still target a point before casting the spell.

chaos0xomega
21-08-2009, 01:01
damn, kayosiv beat me to it.

fubukii
22-08-2009, 00:32
i tend to disagree as you dont nominate the point until after the spell is casted.

Spells normally nominate a target prior to casting unless specifically stated. Black horror is another exception to the ring of hoteks effect

narrativium
22-08-2009, 00:38
If Comet is successfully cast, you put a marker on the exact spot affected. How would any spot be the one affected unless you'd targeted it?

Any spell with a target, unless specified otherwise, specifies the target at the same time the spell is nominated, i.e. before the dice roll.

chaos0xomega
22-08-2009, 00:43
But you nominate the point BEFORE the spell is cast. Read the wording of the spell: "The spell can be cast upon any fixed point on the tabletop. If successfully cast, place a suitable marker over the exact spot affected."

Compare with Forked Lightning for example: " This spell can be cast on any enemy unit in sight of the caster. If successfully cast, the unit is struck by lightning..."

By your logic fubukii, none of these spells can ever be cast on a unit, since apparently the whole "this spell can be cast on..." part isn't considered a valid target nomination, since it uses the same exact wording and structure as comet of cassandora.

sulla
22-08-2009, 01:28
If Comet is successfully cast, you put a marker on the exact spot affected. How would any spot be the one affected unless you'd targeted it?

Any spell with a target, unless specified otherwise, specifies the target at the same time the spell is nominated, i.e. before the dice roll.

The marker is not the target. The target is the 'fixed point' you nominated before you rolled the dice. The marker is an indicater of the size of area effect. Everyone seems to get caught up on the marker.

fubukii
22-08-2009, 02:12
hmm i guess that is true fair enough :)

I guess the next issue would be whats the exact wording of the ring of hotek?

I know its if a spell is being cast within 12 inches of the bearers (which it isnt) or targeting a unit or does it say a spot within 12inches? I dont have my book on me so i cant clarify at this time

Sarah S
22-08-2009, 02:27
"...attempting to cast or target a spell within 12"...

Atrahasis
22-08-2009, 11:18
Ah Warseer, where people will vehemently argue about rules they haven't even read.

*single tear rolls down the cheek*

Condottiere
22-08-2009, 11:37
blissful ignorance
inquiring minds insist
tear rolls down age'd cheek

Foxbat
23-08-2009, 14:30
For me until there is a final GW FAQ or errata, itís simply a Most Important Rule roll off as there are reasonable arguments on both sides that comply with the rules.

Arguments against the RoH working are that the Comet spell:
(1) Is an area affect spell that gets focused on a specific point once successfully cast (like the Black Horror); or
(2) Is targeted at some wayward piece of space debris which then travels to the designated location if successfully cast.

On the other side, there is an argument that the Comet spell is cast on the specific point and only marked if successfully cast. In this case it the RoH works.

Atrahasis
23-08-2009, 14:45
I don't know why Black Horror keeps being given as an example of a spell that doesn't target until after successfully cast.

As far as I know (don't have DE book with me, a quotation from someone would be nice :)) it uses the same structure as all the spells discussed thus far in this thread - nominate point, if successful place template.

This means two things - Ring works, and the spell can fail if the point nominated is out of range.

Foxbat
23-08-2009, 15:12
Black Horror is an area effect spell as its cast initially on the caster herself and the template is only placed one the spell has been successfully cast (wording “place the centre of the large template anywhere within 18”). While the initial target is the sorceress, which is consistent with all area affect spells, Black Horror diverges somewhat in as much as the caster then gets to place the template (i.e. focus the effect) to specific point within 18”.

With area effect spells, the caster and the target are one and the same. As a result, all area effect spells would be effected by the RoH if the caster is within 12" of the ring.

Atrahasis
23-08-2009, 15:17
I'm sorry, that's rubbish. Area of effect spells do not target the caster; there is nothing that even suggests it.

jaxom
23-08-2009, 15:25
I'm not familiar enough with Black Horror to comment on that disscusion, but one interesting situation comes to mind. We know from the MR discussions that Burning Head does not ever target a unit. Imagine a unit with the ring sitting 13" away from a caster. I am not seeing any problems with sniping the ring-bearer with Burning Head (well, look-out sir, but nothing related to the ring). Is that interpretation correct?

Atrahasis
23-08-2009, 15:27
Yes, that is correct.

Foxbat
23-08-2009, 15:31
I'm sorry, that's rubbish. Area of effect spells do not target the caster; there is nothing that even suggests it.
So, how are they targeted then? No target? However, the rules require all spells to have a target (refer 5th para of Casting Spells rule, BRB, pg 107).

Atrahasis
23-08-2009, 15:42
You might as well claim that the flying spaghetti monster is the target.

The fact is that despite what p107 says, not all spells have a target.

narrativium
23-08-2009, 15:44
They don't target, that's the point. They're not cast at a unit or a point on the table, they simply affect everything within an area specified. It's the distinction between someone being fired at with a water pistol, and being rained on.

Linguistically you could argue that the area is being targeted, but that's not how it's played.

Black Horror doesn't target. You place the template within range of the caster. Any caster who places the template over their caster hits the caster.

(Also on the topic of "not all spells have a target" - Second Sign of Amul, from the Heavens Lore, gives the player re-rolls. No target there...)

Condottiere
23-08-2009, 15:48
That's how Magic Resistance used to work. For better or worse, it's been revised.

Foxbat
23-08-2009, 15:50
Burning Head is an example of second target spell or focused area effect spell (these are very rare in WHFB) as the spell requires a second target to be nominated or focused to a specific point (direction in this case) once the spell has been successfully cast. This is because to define a direction and straight line in three dimensional space requires two points.

So let’s run through the sequence:
- wizard nominates Burning Head spell;
- wizard nominates himself/herself as the initial target;
- player nominates number of dice and rolls them;
- if total does not exceed casting amount, the attempt fails otherwise continue;
- assuming no IF or Miscast, the opponent may then attempt to dispel;
- if opponent fails to dispel or chooses not to dispel the effect of the spell is then initiated (i.e. use/read the spell’s rule);
- casting player then nominates a direction (technically a second point a small distance from the caster);
- effect then travels down this straight line [blah blah blah]...

Foxbat
23-08-2009, 15:53
Also on the topic of "not all spells have a target" - Second Sign of Amul, from the Heavens Lore, gives the player re-rolls. No target there...
I see this as an area effect spell that is targeted on the caster. If successfully cast, we then use the rule, which tells us that the player then does something.

Atrahasis
23-08-2009, 15:57
You're making up the "wizard nominates himself/herself as initial target" part.

It's pure invention.

Foxbat
23-08-2009, 15:58
You might as well claim that the flying spaghetti monster is the target. Of course if this is not an acceptable target for the spell, it doesn't go off. I then don't waste DD or DS. Works for me.

So, knock yourself out.

Foxbat
23-08-2009, 16:02
You're making up the "wizard nominates himself/herself as initial target" part.

It's pure invention.

You're ignoring the fact that the area effect spells reference "from the caster" or some such wording. This implies the caster must have been the target of the spell, otherwise, it does not comply with the rules. Simple as that.

You're adding a rule that says " not all spells are required to have a target". That's "Rules Not as Written".

Atrahasis
23-08-2009, 16:07
No, it means that that's what the spell says to do.

Assuming that the caster is the target is as well supported as assuming that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the target. Both are baseless assumptions.

Foxbat
23-08-2009, 16:10
No, it means that that's what the spell says to do.

Assuming that the caster is the target is as well supported as assuming that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the target. Both are baseless assumptions.

Whatever...

It's still a MIR roll off.

GW will need to clarify. As for the outcome, I am really indifferent. I just want a clear answer.