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drummerholt1234
21-08-2009, 05:21
Ok so I am a total noob at Warhammer (Not 40k Thou I'm damn good at that ;) )

I was hoping to get some help building a competitive VC army for tourneys and such...

Thanks in advance to you vets out there!

thechosenone
21-08-2009, 19:55
well, not knowing exactly what your play style is i can say what is "cool" and what is "winsauce"

Cool is stuff like the varghulf, black coach and blood knights.

Winsauce is a lord with extra power level, dark acolyte and master of the black arts (Or what ever its called. The bonus 2 power dice) Give yourself the skull staff and 35 points of something else fun. Consider getting a cheap flying mount like the a winged nightmare of abyssal terror. Use this for raising units and restoring units. Spam raise dead, spam invocation. Have a purpose in mind with vampire heroes when you build them. Character killers, secondary raisers ect ect. Wight King is ok, necromancer is only best for small points games in my opinion.

Ghouls are your best core choice followed by Skeletons. Zombies, in my opinion are what your raising with spell casting why waste points by actually paying for them.

So that's just some thoughts so far from a VC player that's about four months into playing

peterjameslewis711
22-08-2009, 00:23
HI guys, ill side with holt, without knowing ur playing style we are pretty stuck, but i play a magic and combat heavy vc army, which people always say "never works" but iv not lost a game with my vamps yet and iv been playing since the last book.
Blood knights are invaluable, but then again so are grave guard with a corpse cart (which tend to do a better job at a much cheaper price tag both and points).
The black coach is the worst creation gw have ever come up with, well rules wise at least. A chaos warshrine is less points and a million times better.
The varghulf is a shooty magnet as are blood knights, but blood knights come with a meaty armour save and a great regen save if u give them the drakenhof banner.
Zombie units are amazing, dont let anyone tell you otherwise, paying so few points for a unit of 20 or 40 is amazing and command, and being able to raise beyond starting point is amazing, they are the ultimate unit to hold up big things like blood thirsters or annoying cavilry units or other horrors fantasy throws at you.
Ghouls are a necromancers best friend. t4 in fantasy is great, ok fine they dont have a save i hear u cry but so what, u can raise them back up! and they have poisened attacks and 2 each!
skeletons aint worth it in comparisson to ghouls imo, but i speak only from personal experience.
I tend to run 4 fell bats in a 2k list as artillery killers, they do a job and they do it well, especially as id have say 5 or 6 blood knights and count mannfred with a vamp bsb charging 40" in the first turn (thank u vanhels!), so 20" movement really does help.
Um i dont like the white king as i tend to keep magic and combat around vamps and 1 necromancer, wraiths are amazing in small games but tend to get targetted by chaos knights or magical attacks asap and movement 6 means they suffer a lot unless vamps are kept close or they are well hidden.
Dire wolves are great for taking out small units or again tar pits.
Konrad and vlad is a killer combo and if u can get them into combat its bananas, really fun but really sick for the opponent!
Any help needed just drop me a pm man, im more than happy to lend advice.

Gokamok
22-08-2009, 03:04
First off, there's a vast difference between playing vamps at 2k and anything less than that, since it defines whether or not you can have a Vampire Lord.

The 2 most defining factors for your list is the characters and core choices; if you take strong magic characters, you'll usually want to play a tarpit game with lots of infantry, while strong combat characters will often be more suited for an aggressive approach with fast moving units and less infantry.

VC are somewhat unique in only having 3 different units counting towards minimum core, all of which are ranked infantry with a minimum cost of 80 points per unit. Everyone has different opinions as to what the best choice is for core units, so you shouldn't take it as truth when someone claims that "X is better than Y"; it's simply a matter of preference and playstyle.
I'll try to list the strengths and weaknesses of the different core troops here:

Ghouls:
-More resilient to shooting than Skeletons.
-Better offensive capabilities than Skeletons, especially against troops with high Toughness.
-No options for Standard and Musician, resulting in less static CR.

Skeletons:
-Good Static CR due to command groups.
-Magic banners and spears enables a degree of versatility.
-Slightly worse than Empire state troops in close combat.

Zombies:
-The cheapest way to get a big block of bodies on the field.
-Can be raised beyond starting size without mastery powers, and very easy to raise.
-Likely the worst combat unit in the game. Will lose combat against other ranked infantry every time.

Ghouls are the core troops that benefit most from VC support spells, such as Miasma of Deathly Vigour and Vanhel's Danse Macabre, so if you decide to go for Ghouls, you'll likely want a strong magic phase and vice versa.
Skeletons are less dependant on magic, since they rely on static CR to win combats, where the ghouls need to produce kills to do so. Still, ASF Skeletons aren't too shabby, especially if you're using spears.
Zombies are only meant to hold up enemy units, since their stats are so poor that it'll be a cold day in hell before they win a combat on their own. However, with 3 ranks, standard and likely outnumber, they won't lose too many models to crumbling against most units, and they're easily replenished.

drummerholt1234
22-08-2009, 03:14
I guess what i really wanted to know was what is good in the book and what is crap. Like some stuff looks cool if it were like in 40k but that may not be the case in fantasy...

Gokamok
22-08-2009, 03:47
I guess what i really wanted to know was what is good in the book and what is crap. Like some stuff looks cool if it were like in 40k but that may not be the case in fantasy...

Well, Bat Swarms and Spirit Hosts are crap, while the rest is good. There's not really any "must-haves" in the VC book, since the army is based very much on the synergy between the characters and the different units:)

thechosenone
22-08-2009, 03:53
I guess what i really wanted to know was what is good in the book and what is crap. Like some stuff looks cool if it were like in 40k but that may not be the case in fantasy...

speaking as a 40K player who jumped over to fantasy a few months ago things all tend to be kind of useful in fantasy. Its not like playing chaos and knowing if i don't run oblits i'm cheating myself.

There are just varying degrees of play style. Bat Swarms are not really fantastic in anyway and Spirit Hosts are... not that they're bad but not being able to be wounded by basic troops doesn't make up for that fact that you can't really win a combat.

Other then those two i think everything useful in some way, even the coach. Though with the coach you have to work that into being the crux of your tactic rather then part of your tactic if you know what i mean

artyboy
22-08-2009, 04:05
Before we get into what you should take you should realize what the ultimate strategy is going to be for undead. Ultimately, the general consensus is that competitive vampire count armies will end up with a pretty specific build. The basic strategy is to keep everything alive until you can get across the board. Then keep everything alive when you start getting into combat. Get a kill here and there and raise your losses. At the end of the day you should win.

Vampire Lords - You have to have one if you're playing 2k+. If you're playing a small game and you can't run a count then you won't really get the feel of a vampire counts army since the count is really a necessity. Give him forbidden lore, master of the black arts, Skull Staff and Helm of Commandment. If you're afraid that he's going to need some type of save then give him avatar of death. If you're sure that he'll never see combat then give him lord of the dead or summon ghouls depending on whether you're going ghoul or skeleton heavy.

Vampires - You can kit these out to be a real force on the battlefield. One of my favorites is a vamp on hellsteed with Infinite Hatred, Beguile, Balefire Spike and Flayed Hauberk. Throw in a cursed book if you want to. He's easy to protect, easy to maneuver and he can get where he needs to be on the battlefield when he needs to be there. He also hits really hard and has no trouble positioning for a favorable charge.

There are a ton of other useful vampire builds. I'd recommend skimming the Vampire tactica. You'll get a lot of useful information just in the last 10 pages or so. The most common are Dark Acolyte w/ either avatar of death (if you fear getting him into CC) or summon ghouls/lord of the dead depending on what your main troop choice is. Do you want to be able to raise units or own stuff in the face?

Wight Kings - I love them. They're str 4, tough 5 with 3 wounds before you give them anything. It's easy to give them good armor saves. Give them a great weapon and they can do some damage. Make them a standard bearer and just give them the drakenhoff banner and suddenly you have a damn near unkillable unit. Meanwhile, they have killing blow no matter what. I take one in just about every army that I build. They're one of the best CC heroes in the game.

Necromancers - They're cheap. If you're short on points then you can get a necro for half the cost of a vamp. The fact that you can pick Vanhell's as a spell for him makes it a very worthwhile hero choice.

Ghouls are always a clear choice for me. I'd rather have t4 and 2 poisoned attacks than an armor save and a command. Skeletons are worthless. Take ghouls every time if you have the models. I do take skeletons in most of my builds because they're a lot cheaper on ebay. The other reason to take skeletons is if you're taking Count Mannfred. He's an awesome caster and he makes taking skeletons worthwhile.

Grave Guard rock. They have a good armor save. You can give them regen with a wight king w/ drakenhoff banner. Vanhell's makes them maneuverable enough to be scary. If they start to die they're easy to raise. They can take a charge from multiple badass units and shrug it off. Give them great weapons and they lose some durability but they're so good at hitting back that most units won't charge them in the first place. As for the other specials, black knights are the only thing that I'd even consider fielding. The potential to use them effectively is there but they just don't have the durability of a full unit of grave guard. They're good enough that they're worth their points but they're expensive enough that there are usually better choices.

All of the Vamp Count rares are good. The Vhargulf is probably the best, though. The black Coach is a close second in my mind. Suck up some power dice and it gets pretty tough. Even without sucking up any power dice it's a T6 chariot with an armor save and a ward save. Have fun trying to kill it. Blood knights are hard to beat but they're easily taken out with decent shooting and they can be led around by the nose because of frenzy. Wraiths are either broken or worthless. It just depends on what your opponents answer to ethereal is. Sometimes they'll win you the game by themselves. Other times they'll crumble before they get a chance to accomplish anything.

wingedserpant
22-08-2009, 23:10
Well, Bat Swarms and Spirit Hosts are crap, while the rest is good. There's not really any "must-haves" in the VC book, since the army is based very much on the synergy between the characters and the different units:)

I disagree. You can raise D6 bat swarms a turn and that will hold up anything. Really good at holding up engines of the gods. Will eventually pick the skink preist off the top aswell.

Gokamok
23-08-2009, 02:45
I disagree. You can raise D6 bat swarms a turn and that will hold up anything. Really good at holding up engines of the gods. Will eventually pick the skink preist off the top aswell.

To be exact, you raise d6 wounds worth of Bat Swarms. I just have a very hard time finding anything that Bat Swarms can do that isn't done better by Fell Bats. That's why I consider Bat Swarms to be inferior to the other choices available.
Same goes for Spirit Hosts; Sure, ethereal stuff is nice, but I'd take Wraiths over Spirit Hosts any day of the week.