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kaubin
21-08-2009, 06:17
Just wondering which of the two units are better and in what situations. 2 Chariots costs roughly the same thing as a full command unit of 5 Cold One Knights, with 1 extra toughness and 1 less save, more maneuverability but cant march, impact hits on charge but no strength 6 attacks. Extra slot use (either as a hero or an extra special) and no banner bonuses but more wounds. Each choice has it`s pros and cons, and both units depend on getting the charge to take the battle.

My question to you is in which situation is one better than the other? Against a shooty army or a str 3 heavy army the chariot is a lot tougher than the knights if you take it down the math hammer road. But what about stronger units? What about heavy armored armies? What about vs high maneuverability armies? And what about against horde armies?

sulla
21-08-2009, 06:33
I haven't found a situation where I would have preferred chariots over knights.

The problem is that chariots don't really compete with knights, they compete with hydra and as any whiner on here will tell you, hydra are a bargain. Whenever I look at a chariot or two, I end up with a hydra to such an extent that I have disassembled my DE chariots and converted them into beast chariots.

As to strengths and weaknesses...

Chariots; deliver the same punch with full wounds or only one left,
impact hits come before even ASF attacks,
more manouverable than 5 knights,
4 rxb shots (comes in handy when you don't want to shoot an entire squad at a lone wizard, fanatic or weapon team.

Knights; Can march,
Can break ranks, gain flank CR bonus etc,
s6 on the charge,
Can carry a banner (including several decent magical ones).
Results of charge very predictable (as opposed to chariots and their random impact hits),
Champ can carry a useful magic item, typically Ring of Hotek, MR1 or a killing blow lance, but there are many others.

So as you see, the knights are much more versatile, faster around most of the field, crack armour better, and have more static CR. Warhammer is a game that favours heavy cav. Remember, a unit of 3 knights that hits the flank of an infantry unit 20 to infinity strong has exactly the same CR as that infantry unit. A couple of kills will send the unit scurrying. The same unit flanked by a chariot will start the combat up by 5CR.

mossel
21-08-2009, 06:42
I really lik eboth actually.

Against high elves and other ASFers, I'd go for Chariots every time! D6+1 S5 impact hits will tear any high elf apart, even dragon princes.
One thing you didn't mention: 5 cold one knights will break flanks, a chariot without character will NEVER do that! so when charging a decent block of infantry, you will need both chariots do have a chance of breaking your opponent!

Furthermore, the D6 + 1 impact hits can very well turn out to be 2 impact hits... not that impressive and against the ranks, outnumber and banner, you'll have a hard time...
Knights don't have the impact hits, but with WS 5 and hatred, I figure you'l hit about 5 out of 6 attacks from the riders, and at S6, that's gotta hurt (not mentioning the cold ones yet)

but as it is, 2 chariots can do 2 things at the same time, whereas knights can only take out one enemy at a time...

I don't think the chariot and the knights should be considered substitutes for one another. they have very different playing styles!

In general, I'd say, take chariots when you play infantry heavy, as they move along at the same speed and will add greatly to the punch your units pack.
When playing a faster army or when you need a real flank protector/fast mover to break flanks and rears etc, go for the knights.

In a perfect world, I'd say: take 2 chariots, a unit knights, a unit shades and a unit black guard to support your 2 blocks of spearmen, your 2 bolt throwers, a hydra and some crossbowmen. The force should be led by a highborn, a BSB and 2 mages. but there will be problems both armywise (5 special slots :s) and pointswise (far over 2000).

Von Wibble
21-08-2009, 09:55
The key difference for me is that 2 chariots take 2 special choices, whilst 1 unit of cold one knights takes up 1 special choice. Considering that shades and black guard are a shoe in for most lists, that doesn't leave you with many options at 2500pts when you only have 4 choices to start with.

Also 2 chariots compared to 1 cold one unit is 2 stupidity checks per turn.

The way I tend to take a chariot would be as a mount for a character to get around this. A BSB with standard of slaughter, or just a sorceress (shooting could be a slight issue but they are only hit on a 6?) would be good candidates. In fact, a sorceress with focus familiar in particular - I might just try this next game.

If you do the maths, cold one knights expect 89% of their attacks to hit, and 83% of their hits to wound (assuming opponents WS 4 or less and T4 or less). This comes out at 74% of their attacks requiring an armour save. So a unit of 6 with champion can reliably expect 4 kills, plus damage from cold ones themselves (not too shabby with hatred and S4). Dragon Princes, despite the extra attack, do not manage this - in fact only Chaos Knights, Grail Knights and Blood Knights beat cold one knights as heavy cavalry on pure damage.

Philip Bright
21-08-2009, 13:11
In my eyes CoK and CoC are two different types of units the CoK is a hard hitting stand alone units that can be used to breach the enemy's lines or inflict heavy damage on heavy troops.
The CoC on the other hand is support unit and need to make a combined charge with a unit that gain rank bonuses and have a banner. Then you can win the combat with substantial numbers and the probability that the enemy flees is high or if he is undead or daemons he will die a lot of models in combat resolution.

So if you don't have a lot of infantry I would go for the CoK.

Tarian
21-08-2009, 15:03
One phrase: Strength 7+

I prefer knights for this reason.

willowdark
21-08-2009, 15:55
Chariots are great in support of infantry. On a charge, chariots can comfortably share the frontage with a fully ranked unit of Warriors, delivering those impact hits along side that SCR. I add in the Warbanner and a RoK/Mandbane Assassin. That's a ~450 pt investment but it really delivers. It will punch a hole in most center advances and the Assassin will be there to deflect enemy characters, either by killing them or by offsetting their active CR with his own, which will almost always be higher than even most Lords. This combo should win most combats by at least 4 or 5, especially after those extra few Warrior attacks with Hatred.

That being said, I always include a flank assault of CoK in my strategy. 2 Chariots is really not a good option, unless you're intentionally running all infantry. But 1 Chariot is a nice addition to your army after you've already spent points on your knights.

decker_cky
22-08-2009, 04:28
2 chariots is more than twice as good as 1 chariot. Chariots work best in pairs, particularly when they're covering for each other's stupidity. I'd take 1 chariot and 1 with a noble, meaning you still have 3 special slots. The noble is fine with just mundane options.

kaubin
22-08-2009, 05:11
I tried both in my list to see the pros and cons, and on one end 2 chariots killed three chaos nights and 1 of the two chariots was getting ready to charge another unit of knights, while the cold ones died after dealing 2 wounds on a giant. I hardly think this is representing of the two powers, I was very lucky the chariots didn`t explode against a WoC army.

Overall though, i`d say the chariots tend to be a lot more defensive than a Cold One Knights unit. Toughness 5 really rocks. The thing that ended up hurting the most is the 2 stupidity tests over just the 1. For the Knights, I like how much better they get with a Cauldron of Blood.

Draconian77
22-08-2009, 12:32
I'm a Chariot man aswell, I find that I've found that T5 makes them very durable(whereas the Knights seem surprisingly frail)and they have plenty of offensive power on a small frontage.

You do have to make 2 Stupidity checks instead of 1 per turn, but if you fail the CoK's test you lose around 200pts(around 300 with a banner) whereas if you fail with one of the CoC's you lose 100pts, so it's not that much of a problem in my eyes. The extra special slot is probably the biggest con, not that it matters in my lists.