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Slyphor
21-08-2009, 17:02
so I watched a game at the local club last night and something happened I hadn't heard mentioned before. Basically, as long as the champion of a unit lived (not singled out), he could attack back no matter the quantity of casualties against the unit in question (as though a fully fledged character). Now, I have no reason to assume that this is incorrect, but can someone please point me to the relevant section of the rules, which will ease my troubled mind?

Thanks

Condottiere
21-08-2009, 17:22
If the overflow of casualties is greater than the remaining number of wounds in the unit, that Champion is dead, targeted or not.

Drachen_Jager
21-08-2009, 17:28
Yeah, you have to target the Champion, in that respect he's like a Hero. If you don't kill him he attacks back. It's kind of spread around the book, read the sections on Champions, Characters and "who can fight".

The Red Scourge
22-08-2009, 15:35
If the overflow of casualties is greater than the remaining number of wounds in the unit, that Champion is dead, targeted or not.

Huh? Quote please? :confused:

Condottiere
22-08-2009, 16:02
BRB page 81, column 2, paragraph 5, lines 5-7.

stripsteak
22-08-2009, 20:28
also in either faq 1 or 2 for clarity i forget which one, i think 2

Belerophon709
23-08-2009, 03:26
The only point at which a champion is killed without being specifically targetted, is if enough wounds are dealt to wipe out every single RnF in the unit +1.

For instance, if 10 ghouls including a ghast are attacked and 6 ghouls are killed, the ghast would still fight back, unless he was targetted.
Now, if 10 wounds were dealt, 9 regular ghouls would be killed and the last wound would carry over to the ghast, effectively killing him.



Bele

Braad
23-08-2009, 09:16
And no to answer the initial question in the way the OP asked:

Page 81, 3rd paragraph under 'champions' details that champions can be seperately targeted, and the only exception given for him to die by not attacking him is by wiping the whole unit out, as detailed above.

So, he's not dead, and models that are not dead can fight back. Why? Because there is no rule saying he cannot fight back in this situation.

Condottiere
23-08-2009, 09:20
The Champion is expected to fight back, to uphold the honour of his unit.

The reason to attempt a wipe out of a unit is when the champion is harder to kill than an ordinary R&Fer.

Whaagnomore
23-08-2009, 21:45
Does this mean that in the case of multiwound Champions, for example a Kroxigor ancient, you keep his wounds separated from the rest of the group?
Lets say for instance that 5 chaos warriors hit my 3 kroxigors, 3 of them aim the champ, the 2 other aim normals, 2 wounds on the champ is scored, one wound on the normal.
Is this also the same when they get shot at and there are enough hits to go the unit around?

Condottiere
23-08-2009, 22:47
Yes - Champions both are and aren't characters, so if a unit has multi-wound models, you have to keep accounts. In most cases this would be irrelevant, since champions would have only one wound.

The Red Scourge
24-08-2009, 10:02
Now how about, when you've dealt enough wounds to wipe out the unit -1 and have a standard bearer and a champion in the unit, who dies?

Condottiere
24-08-2009, 10:05
Our group used to choose which command model took the bullet, but I'm not sure if that's actually allowed.

Necromancy Black
24-08-2009, 11:04
Now how about, when you've dealt enough wounds to wipe out the unit -1 and have a standard bearer and a champion in the unit, who dies?

Unless there are enough wounds done to whipe out the unit, unit champions have to have attacks directed against them, so in that case the standard bearer takes it.

The Red Scourge
24-08-2009, 11:25
But the standard bearer is always the last one to go?

Atrahasis
24-08-2009, 11:40
No, the champion is always last to go if he is not specifically attacked.

The Standard Bearer and Musician are of equal "rank" and so when the unit is reduced to the point where there is only one non-champion left, the player chooses which to keep and which to lose.

Necromancy Black
24-08-2009, 12:01
But the standard bearer is always the last one to go?

There is no rule saying they are removed last. The rules says that if a standard bearer would be removed then a normal model takes it place. If you run out of normal models then you can't replace it. So at that point you have to start removing command models.

But you can't remove the unit champion without attacks direct against it or doing enough to whipe out all the models, so it's either the musician or the standard bearer that has to go.

EvC
24-08-2009, 15:19
Yeah that's one of those rules that I frequently see people doing wrongly (So as to keep an important magic standard in a unit), but really can't be bothered to correct each time. The champion lives!

Signius
25-08-2009, 01:09
What do people do in cases where a unit is not destroyed, but a standard bearer dies, say a champion is left or a champ and musician are left. Does the opponent get the standard right then? That's how we have been playing it, but I think the actual RAW would be he doesn't get the standard ever if this occurs.

nosferatu1001
25-08-2009, 01:14
The standard is on the ground waiting to be picked up: as soon as the unit breaks or is wiped out it is taken.

Necromancy Black
25-08-2009, 01:18
The standard is on the ground waiting to be picked up: as soon as the unit breaks or is wiped out it is taken.

But with a BSB I'm pretty sure it was FAQ'd if the BSB dies and the unit he was with doesn't break from combat you've lost the chance to capture the Battle Standard.

nosferatu1001
25-08-2009, 11:36
This wasn't talking about a BSB however.

BSBs act very differently to standard unit bearers :)

Necromancy Black
25-08-2009, 11:53
This wasn't talking about a BSB however.

BSBs act very differently to standard unit bearers :)

Yep, just pointing out the difference as it's hard to pick out from the rules.

nosferatu1001
25-08-2009, 15:14
Oh gods yes they do, it's just worth being clear how one way works first so they then get the fun of finding out all the exceptions to the rule theyve just learnt ;)

WHFB: where the exception is not on the page you're looking for,

Necromancy Black
26-08-2009, 00:09
WHFB: where the exception is not on the page you're looking for,

And occasionally, not in the FAQ your looking for either.

Jushak
26-08-2009, 02:16
And occasionally, not in the FAQ your looking for either.

...and occasionally the exception is there, only to be overruled by your armybook, mentioned in more or less irrevelant passage.

Not to mention the times when you have keywords bolded out, only to find they are made completely irrevelant for the whole army by some passage somewhere half the armybook away.

Kudos if anyone gets the reference.