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Makaber
10-01-2006, 23:49
This is the list I'm currently working towards. It's extremely offensive and build around the Cauldron of Blood, from which the assassin, witch elves, and chariots benefit tremendeously from. The cavalry is there to protect the witch elves from faster or heavily armoured threats. Also, allthough strictly not MSU, its buildt around the principle of making up for lack of static combat resolution by inflicting casualties. However, I have 108 points to spare. Vote your favorite element to be added! Oh, and of course give general comments and critisism.

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Highborn, Heavy Armour, Cloak, Shield, Cold One, Sword of Strength, Enchanted Shield, Seal of Ghrond. 237 pts.

Assassin, Additional Hand Weapon, Touch of Death. 159 pts.

Sorceress, 2 Dispel Scrolls. 140 pts.

5 Dark Riders, Musician. 97 pts.
5 Dark Riders, Musician. 97 pts.
5 Dark Riders, Musician. 97 pts.

14 Witch Elves, Full Command, Manbane. 237 pts.
14 Witch Elves, Full Command, Manbane. 237 pts.

Cold One Chariot, Spears. 97 pts.
Cold One Chariot, Spears. 97 pts.

5 Cold One Knights, Full Command. 195 pts.

Cauldron of Blood. 205 pts.

Eldacar
11-01-2006, 04:06
My vote goes to the Reaper Bolt Thrower. You have enough (IMO) characters, and cavalry units of eight aren't as useful as units of five or six. If you can soften up threats to the Cauldron or weaken enemy units before hitting them with your Cold One Knights, then it should make itself worth the points you're paying.

Flypaper
11-01-2006, 05:11
I voted for RXBs for the Driders. Offensive your army may be, but it's still advancing at infantry speed. You need enough harassment to force your opponent to try to contest the middle of the board instead of castling, and since your horseboys are there for that reason anyway you may as well add ranged potential to give them some kills without engaging in hand-to-hand.

Danger Rat
11-01-2006, 10:18
I would go for the RXB's as they will be more flexible and just as good if not better at harassing threats to the cauldron

A neutral shade of black.
11-01-2006, 10:32
I'd go for more witch elves, then crossbows on one DR unit. Enough witch elves to have two units of eighteen deployed 3*6.

I presume you've heard of these guys? (http://www.druchii.net) In case you haven't, you'll probably get more in-depth answers (if not more answers) there.

A couple of things about the list. You have two shields on your highborn, and he'd be better off with a lance rather than Sword of Might (saving you another eight points), to be honest. There's also the fact that I wouldn't touch a scroll caddie or assassin with a mile-long perch. Oh, and the fact that "extremely offensive" and "built around the Cauldron" don't really go together, since one suggests movement and the other is a static element. And you need scouts, and something to protect those witch elves from enemy fire.

Makaber
11-01-2006, 13:30
A couple of things about the list. You have two shields on your highborn, and he'd be better off with a lance rather than Sword of Might (saving you another eight points), to be honest.
The times I've used units of 5 Knights in small 1000 pts. games, they've frequently found themselves bogged down against an enemy unit they didn't manage to break due to poor rolling. Of course, most of these games have been against undead, but point stands: The second round of combat, the knights are only Strenght 3, and the Cold Ones are offset by their low weapon skill. Furthermore, I feel every army should have at least one magic weapon, to handle potential ethereal enemies. Sure there's not many of them, but when they do show up, you're screwed unless you have a magical weapon to handle them with.


There's also the fact that I wouldn't touch a scroll caddie or assassin with a mile-long perch.
Why not a scroll caddie? Three dispel dice is not nearly enough to protect myself against even a moderately strong magic offense, that could seriously mess up my Witches. And the assassin gets rerolls to wound from the cauldron, so its chance of landing a killing blow increases exponantially with the toughness of enemy characters. Its faily good even against Toughness 4 characters, and against Toughness 5, it's a bitchin' 76%.


Oh, and the fact that "extremely offensive" and "built around the Cauldron" don't really go together, since one suggests movement and the other is a static element.
Even without playing a single game with it, I can hands down say this is complete rubbish, with all due respect. The Cauldron is only effective once units are in close combat. Loitering around it is extremely counter-productive in this respect. Also, a static setup would indicate ranged weaponry like bolt throwers and crossbowmen, units that neither benefit from the Cauldron, and suck up points that could be used on units that do benefit from it.

Futhermore, while the Cauldron is static, it's also very hard to actually remove. Against shooting, the Witch Elves get (in effect) a 3+ ward save followed by a 4+, in addition to that, the enemy has to hit and wound as normal. And it's not a large target, so it's not that easy to actually see in the first place. And this is assuming there isn't a wood to hide it in.

Most units that stand a chance of reaching behind the advancing battle line will be fairly light, typically fliers and light cavalry. Such units will have a very hard time taking down the crew quickly, because their frontage is fairly small, they have a good weapon skill, and they are unbreakable (and pack a small wardsave). Each crew member has 3 attacks, 4 for the Hag, so they will likely suffer a few casualties in return. The following rounds, the remaining Witches will strike first, still benefitting from frenzy, and probably kill enough to not suffer many casualties in return.

And even when/if the enemy would manage to take down the crew, it's likely he'd made an unproportionately big effort in doing so. It's only a 205 pts. model after all, and the army is fully capable of doing its job without it.

Finally, due to the survivability of the thing, it can be placed in the extreme front of the deployment zone with no real danger. It has a 24" range, so it then covers most of the battle field, all the way to the edge of the enemy deployment zone. Even if just one model of a unit is partially inside the range, the entire unit benefits, so the practical range is even longer. Even if the enemy makes an effort to aviod the area, it's to my advantage.

Thank you. ;)

A neutral shade of black.
11-01-2006, 13:42
The times I've used units of 5 Knights in small 1000 pts. games, they've frequently found themselves bogged down against an enemy unit they didn't manage to break due to poor rolling. Of course, most of these games have been against undead, but point stands: The second round of combat, the knights are only Strenght 3, and the Cold Ones are offset by their low weapon skill. Furthermore, I feel every army should have at least one magic weapon, to handle potential ethereal enemies. Sure there's not many of them, but when they do show up, you're screwed unless you have a magical weapon to handle them with.

Point taken, then. I would have gone for the cheaper lance, but seeing how much you've invested in the highborn anyway...


Why not a scroll caddie? Three dispel dice is not nearly enough to protect myself against even a moderately strong magic offense, that could seriously mess up my Witches.

I'd much rather field a level two with a scroll and DSC in order to pull off a couple of spells per game, to be honest. In fact, I'd rather field two level twos, but there. ;)


And the assassin gets rerolls to wound from the cauldron, so its chance of landing a killing blow increases exponantially with the toughness of enemy characters. Its faily good even against Toughness 4 characters, and against Toughness 5, it's a bitchin' 76%.

Seen the stat tables, I know. Still, he just isn't solid enough for me (generally ends up dying before he could kill something worth killing, i.e. more than your average trooper).


Even without playing a single game with it, I can hands down say this is complete rubbish, with all due respect.

I was considering deploying it at the back of my deployment zone, and the way you intend to put it, though it'll almost certainly make it an obstacle to your own movement, has ample merits amongst which that of answering that particular point. So, yeah, point taken, too. :P

Makaber
11-01-2006, 13:54
Yay! I made argumentation fun!

I'd like two Level 2's personally, but sadly it would be slightly counter productive since it'd suck up so many points that could be otherwise spendt on close combat troops. The assassin fits the whole Khanite theme, and the general idea is that he can help out the Witches against enemies with lots of armour that they'd otherwise struggle with. Also, if charged by something, he can pop out and reduce their fighting numbers by one or two, no matter their armour, possibly tipping the balance. The last one is grasping for straws I know, but it's better than nothing. Say he managed to kill the champion in a unit of empire knights, for instance. That's three less attacks, and the knights will struggle to inflict enough casualties to break the witches.

And, it would just be priceless to see him kill some chaos powerhouse outright, just once. ;)

Finally, I don't really think the cauldron will get in the way. It's not very large after all, and it's not like I plan to loiter around it a great deal.

Ah, finally, I'm considering putting the Noble in one of the chariots, so it can negate ranks. I might even make him a BSB, just because I've never seen a BSB in a chariot before and it would probably look awesome.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
12-01-2006, 20:45
have more knights to make the unit more effective. otherwise put your general with the infantry.