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Tir'Shinarel
23-08-2009, 07:44
I'm thinking about making a Thousand Sons army, but I'm confused on some stuff.

1) What are Thrall Wizards? I don't see them in the codex, in there a seperate one, or an old 'dex?

2) What are "Talismans"? Same thing as above? Or a fancy name for "Mark"?

3) Why do people label the sorcerer "Free Aspiring Sorcerer?" Is he free? If so, where does it state that?

Thanks to all whom help! :)

adreal
23-08-2009, 07:50
IIRC
1)old codex
2)old codex
3)manditory squad upgrade for the thousand sons squad

xxRavenxx
23-08-2009, 08:35
3. Old codex as well. You used to get one for free when you took 9 or 18 man squads.


I suggest strongly that you get a look at the new chaos codex before deciding on TS. They are VERY different now. (expensive, arguably less tough, paying lots of points for high AP guns)

Tonberry
23-08-2009, 08:35
3) Champ upgrade was free in old codex if squad number = god's sacred number.

BrotherMoses
23-08-2009, 08:36
Thousand Suns are cool. Not enough of them out their says I.

Mannimarco
23-08-2009, 12:23
theyre cool yes but they are far to expensive, that mandatory sorcerer really eats up the points if you want to take them at army level

that ap3 bolter is nice but nowadays theres a lot more cover saves so theyre not as effective

EVIL INC
23-08-2009, 14:06
I'm thinking about making a Thousand Sons army, but I'm confused on some stuff.

1) What are Thrall Wizards? I don't see them in the codex, in there a seperate one, or an old 'dex?

2) What are "Talismans"? Same thing as above? Or a fancy name for "Mark"?

3) Why do people label the sorcerer "Free Aspiring Sorcerer?" Is he free? If so, where does it state that?

Thanks to all whom help! :)
1. They were psycher wanna bes that the sorcerers kept around to help them fire off extra powers. One of the OTT way to make TS psychers ultra powerfull. They were in the old codex but are now gone as they had no place in 40k games. Fluffy but only belonged in the fluff in many's opinion, but that differs.
2. Talismans gave enemy psychers a -1 modifier to thier leadership when it came to using thier powers. Again, fluffy in the fluff but they were never really taken unless you were tooling up for a specific opponant. For example, if you were facing eldar and you knew your opponant used a lot of warlocks and a farseer. Except for those occasions, they were not used.
3. If you used the sad TS list that was just slapped together with no foresight or actual thought that was in the last codex, you got a free aspiring champion if your unit numbered 9 models. That is why so many of the powergamers liked that list. You were able to save a lot of points by getting free upgrades for all of your models. The list was geared towards the watered down fluff that only allows TS to have empty armors and sorcerers and limited them in ways that do not match ANY versions of the fluff.
Your better off getting your hands on the new chaos codex as it will allow you to field a MUCH more fluffy, a much more effective, and a much more varied TS army.
Good luck and happy hunting.:)

Grimtuff
23-08-2009, 14:19
3. If you used the sad TS list that was just slapped together with no foresight or actual thought that was in the last codex, you got a free aspiring champion if your unit numbered 9 models. That is why so many of the powergamers liked that list. You were able to save a lot of points by getting free upgrades for all of your models. The list was geared towards the watered down fluff that only allows TS to have empty armors and sorcerers and limited them in ways that do not match ANY versions of the fluff.

:eyebrows:
I'm really trying not to laugh here, but old CSM dex TS and powergaming in the same sentence?

WTF?

Apparently in some people's eyes "an army with 2 wounds each has a lot going for it..."

EVIL INC
23-08-2009, 15:01
Yes grimmy, as I said, the aspiring champs were free. Free as in that was points you did not have to spend in building your army and thus more you could spend on other things. If you are unable to find it, it is on page 61 of the english codex.

Grimtuff
23-08-2009, 16:15
Yes grimmy, as I said, the aspiring champs were free. Free as in that was points you did not have to spend in building your army and thus more you could spend on other things. If you are unable to find it, it is on page 61 of the english codex.

What's your point? I'm quite aware of TS and how utterly crappy they were until the current CSM dex (though these still have their flaws).

Pure TS were one of the worst builds in the old CSM codex, there was nothing "powergamey" about them. The fact that everyone just fired Lascannons etc. at them somewhat nuetered their very expensive mark.

The last quote in my previous post in from Pete Haines when asked why he made TS so rubbish. Obviously this slipped past you too.

EVIL INC
23-08-2009, 16:26
Check out page 61.
I agree, thousand sons was the weakest build in the codex. No one is saying it wasnt (at least not me anyways). But if you look on page 61, you will see that the Champs WERE indeed free. it is in the last section on the right just above the black and white artwork of the thousand son and under the heading of "Playing a Thousand Sons army" in case that slipped past you.

Askari
23-08-2009, 19:25
you got a free aspiring champion if your unit numbered 9 models. That is why so many of the powergamers liked that list.



One of the OTT way to make TS psychers ultra powerfull.

Yes you did call 3.5 Edition Thousand Sons a "powergamer list"

Which is clearly rubbish.

To the OP: New Codex out unfortunately, grab that and have a look at how the Thousand Sons have changed.

EVIL INC
23-08-2009, 19:36
Yes you did call 3.5 Edition Thousand Sons a "powergamer list"

Which is clearly rubbish.

To the OP: New Codex out unfortunately, grab that and have a look at how the Thousand Sons have changed.

Actually, I did NOTHING of the sort. I pointed out that there ere parts of the codex that could be abused and pointed out that the champs were free in the TS list. If you do not believe me, check out page 61 (I dont understand why people are so unwilling to admit that when it is right there in black and white).
To the OP: new codex is out fortunately, grab that and have a look at how the Thousand Sons have changed back towards thier roots. Good luck and happy hunting with all of the new goodies available to you now.

Mozzamanx
23-08-2009, 19:40
The Sorcerer was hardly overpowered, over-the-top, or even competitive.

- He only had a single wound
- He still had to pay for his psychic powers
- Did not have a force weapon

He was effectively the heavy weapons guy in the squad, with what basically amounted to a Heavy Bolter, an anti-Meq Flamer, or a S8/Assault Lascannon. The only reason people took him is because the Thousand Sons list lacked any heavy firepower beyond vehicles and psychic powers.


EDIT: Spidey sense tingling, I should probably rephrase the 'not-competitive' bit. Players never thought 'Gee willies, these Sorcerers are fab, I'm going to buy another Thousand Son squad just so I can have one!'.
Instead, it was 'Rats, if the enemy brings more than a Rhino, I'm done for! That'll be another Sorcerer then, with Bolt. Sucks that I can't just buy Havocs...'

AndrewGPaul
23-08-2009, 21:18
Actually, I did NOTHING of the sort. I pointed out that there ere parts of the codex that could be abused and pointed out that the champs were free in the TS list. If you do not believe me, check out page 61 (I dont understand why people are so unwilling to admit that when it is right there in black and white).


No-one's denying that fact. Why do you keep harping on about it?

Vaktathi
23-08-2009, 21:37
The list was geared towards the watered down fluff that only allows TS to have empty armors and sorcerers and limited them in ways that do not match ANY versions of the fluff. You mean except every explicit background description of the Tsons since 2nd ed?

EVIL INC
23-08-2009, 21:38
Because that is the fact that is being denied.

feelnopain666
23-08-2009, 21:39
No-one's denying that fact. Why do you keep harping on about it?

Some people just like "Flaming" simple thread like this one, when it come to defend the current CSM codex.
if someone likes the later CSM, then he's in the right to do it so.
in the same way if one likes the current, then is in the right to di it so.
What I can't stand are the ones who doesnt respect every opinion, and ends in the same way, where all the threads its the CSM subject.
lets keep this peacefull, and wait for the Codex; Taitor Legions :p

EVIL INC
23-08-2009, 21:44
You mean except every explicit background description of the Tsons since 2nd ed?
As usualy you forget Rogue Trader. The idea of having a second edition means that there was one before the second. A "first" edition". Believe it or not, GW DID have a "first edition". It was called Rogue Trader and it had a chaos codex. The largest and most in depth of the chaos codexes ever. As a matter of fact, if you take 2 edition, 3, 3.5 and 4th codices combined, you would not have an equal to even one of the two RT era codices. Many of the people who were around for those prefer the fluff that was put forth in them. As in every other one of these threads, I am standing up for the right of those who wish to prefer the version of the fluff that THEY want to rather then succumb to some sort of mind control where they are forced to like what they are told by another gamer to like.
Edit-
Quoted from the post following this one in order to not clutter up the thread....

How so? Even back in 2nd, they very explicitly stated that the Legion as a whole as affected by the Rubric, turning all non-sorcerers into automaton suits and cleansing the Sorcerers of mutation forever, leaving pretty much nothing but automatons and sorcerers. Nothing has contradicted this since then and in fact has only been reinforced through the subsequent Codex's and Index Astartes.
Again, for thier to be a SECOND edition, there needs to be a FIRST edition. GW produced a first edition. I was called Rogue Trader. Check it out sometime. The RT era codices were the two Realm of Chaos books called Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned. Read through them and you will see that they had a much broader spectrum when it came to representing the legions. As I said before and will continue to, I and many others prefer the RT era style fluff. You may feel free to like what you will, just try to stop trying us to like what you want us to. I prefer freedom of thought.

Vaktathi
23-08-2009, 21:44
How so? Even back in 2nd, they very explicitly stated that the Legion as a whole as affected by the Rubric, turning all non-sorcerers into automaton suits and cleansing the Sorcerers of mutation forever, leaving pretty much nothing but automatons and sorcerers. Nothing has contradicted this since then and in fact has only been reinforced through the subsequent Codex's and Index Astartes.

I am simply countering your argument that Tsons being nothing but Sorcerer's and Automatons is *not*, as you put it, "limited them in ways that do not match ANY versions of the fluff. ". It's only contradictory to the Rogue Trader fluff which was all redone in 2nd ed. Other than RT, which really, most people don't consider what the current game is based on (my Chaos champions aren't going to wield Shuriken weapons or Jokaero flamers or D-Cannons anymore) Thousand Sons being all Sorcerers and Rubric Marines matches the background perfectly.

EVIL INC
23-08-2009, 21:46
Some people just like "Flaming" simple thread like this one, when it come to defend the current CSM codex.
if someone likes the later CSM, then he's in the right to do it so.
in the same way if one likes the current, then is in the right to di it so.
What I can't stand are the ones who doesnt respect every opinion, and ends in the same way, where all the threads its the CSM subject.
lets keep this peacefull, and wait for the Codex; Taitor Legions :p
HEAR HEAR! A wise man indeed. Please stop flaming me and others just because we like something different then what you do. We dont try to force our opinions on you.
I cant wait to see a Legions codex just so people will have something new to complain about because it was not done to thier own personal specifications. :p
Vaktathi, if you wish to continue to debate, use the pm function. It will save time and energy as well as go a long way towards not cluttering up these threads. Thank you. :)

feelnopain666
23-08-2009, 21:46
I am standing up for the right of those who wish to prefer the version of the fluff that THEY want to rather then succumb to some sort of mind control where they are forced to like what they are told by another gamer to like.
Looks who's talking...
it works both sides

EVIL INC
23-08-2009, 21:56
Looks who's talking...
it works both sides
Exactly. Not once have I EVER done that. Throughout my gaming "career" I have stood up for the rights of the gamer. I follow through with my side of the "bargain" and never try to force my views on anyone else (well, in this case, I DO try to "force my 3 main views on this matter on others.
1. We as gamers should have the right to like or prefer the version of the fluff or combinations of versions or interpretations thereof that we like without having someone else force thier views to be our views against our will.
2. We as gamers should have the right to build our army lists as we want to (according to the official rules) without someone else forcing us to use the exact army lists they want us to use.
3. The right to build, convert and paint our models as we want to without having someone else force us to do so according to thier axact specifications.
Beyond that, I have never and will never try to force anything on anyone.

Brimstone
23-08-2009, 22:01
Thread Closed

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