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LemanRuss
23-08-2009, 16:29
so i wanted to add mengil manhide and his manflayers to my army.
i'm wondering what you guys think of him and how he performs.

i think they seem pretty cool over all and their repeater crossbows shooting out 3 shots a piece is pretty heavy stuff.

cheers

snottlebocket
23-08-2009, 18:17
They're very expensive in points but if you can keep them intact they're mean as hell. Repeater crossbow fire annoying you from the woods is bad enough but it's worrying about elite elves with great weapons charging your flanks that makes them downright nasty.

decker_cky
23-08-2009, 18:27
They can be really worthwhile if they can take advantage of the flaying special rule...but for the price, I don't think they compare with the much better priced shades in the dark elf books.

For other books though, they can be quite nice (though pricey).

Johnnyfrej
23-08-2009, 18:30
Uhm... what's your army? If you already play Dark Elves you already have shades but say if you play an army that doesn't have scouts then they would be a better bet.

LemanRuss
23-08-2009, 18:42
i play warriors of chaos, thats why i thought they might be a nice addition to my force.
killing of artillery crews and missile units etc

Condottiere
23-08-2009, 19:00
In the 2K army range, they are expensive, but if correctly positioned can not only cause havoc but pick up points, and your opponent has to adjust his deployment to take them in account.

Col. Dash
23-08-2009, 22:41
I have had good luck with them. Gotta love poisoned repeater X-bows and greatswords plus the whole cover thing is great. A minimal sized unit has done well for me whenever I have used them.

sulla
24-08-2009, 01:07
If your opponent still lets you use the dark venom as poison, they are expensive but powerful. Without it, just overpriced and fragile.

nzdarkelf
24-08-2009, 23:14
Yes the change in the definition of Dark Venom could be an issue with narrow minded opponents. I haven't painted my Manflayers up yet.

My position would be this:

Old rule- Dark Venom = poisoned attacks; new rule = doubling of challenge Cmbt Res Wounds;

Old rule- RxBow = Str3; new rule = Str3 and armour peircing;

Old rule- Mengil's Rept Handbow = 3x multi shots; new rules 2x multi shots;

Old rule- Hate High Elves (reroll to hit 1st round HtH only); new rule Eternal Hatred (reroll to hit 1st round HtH only vs all opponent except High Elves, whom may reroll in every round).

Old rules or new rules - opponents choice, but change/ stay with one, then change/ stay with all. Given the advantages in the new rules out weigh the loss of poisoned weapons, I suspect most opponents would see keeping the old definition of Dark Venom for this unit as an advantage to them not the Dark Elf player.

decker_cky
25-08-2009, 01:58
No....Dark Venom is the only rule that actually references the DE book, so it's the only rule updated. I guess in a challenge mengil could carve up a champion to get some free CR and gain another 100 VP from their pelts.

nzdarkelf
25-08-2009, 04:39
(Shakes head), yes, p22 of the old book which says what? So what is the intend of the Dark Venom for Manflayers? (shakes head again, asks himself "Why bother?")

Condottiere
25-08-2009, 04:50
Consistency - Golgfag, despite being an ogre, doesn't inflict impact damage.

Bloodknight
25-08-2009, 08:09
Old rule- Dark Venom = poisoned attacks; new rule = doubling of challenge Cmbt Res Wounds;

While that would be correct, I'd still ask my opponent if I could use the old poison rules (I still don't understand why they referenced the DE book when poinsoned attacks are a special rule from the core rulebook), since it doesn't make sense that the whole unit is equipped to fight in challenges while only Mengil can use this.


Old rule- RxBow = Str3; new rule = Str3 and armour peircing;

No. The RXB is in the rulebook and not referencing the DE book, so Mengil's guys should keep their normal RXB.


Old rule- Mengil's Rept Handbow = 3x multi shots; new rules 2x multi shots;

No, Mengil has his own rules.


Old rule- Hate High Elves (reroll to hit 1st round HtH only); new rule Eternal Hatred (reroll to hit 1st round HtH only vs all opponent except High Elves, whom may reroll in every round).

Doesn't reference the book, again.

Thing is that there are many outdated rules in the DoW rules, and to be consistent, you need to use them as they are written there. This is also true for the impact-less DoW Ogres and Golgfag, or the way the Slayer pirates work since they have specific rules on how "festooned with pistols" works...they shoot into HtH.

nzdarkelf
25-08-2009, 08:36
I actually have no problem with using all of the Manflayers rules as presented in their original form - which of course includes Dark Vonon = poison attacks. This would be the way I would prefer to play them even though it sets them aside from the rest of the Dark Elf race.


[QUOTE=Bloodknight;3890126]
No. The RXB is in the rulebook and not referencing the DE book, so Mengil's guys should keep their normal RXB.
QUOTE]

True the RxBow is in the BRB and does not have armour piercing. The BRB also has this to say about RxBows: "Used almost exclusively by the Dark Elves of Naggaroth..." This is in reference to RxBows without armour piercing. Clearly with the new army book this entry in the BRB is out dated. You know GW do actually credit their players with having some intelligence, its just not many care to show it here... :) Have a nice day.

sulla
25-08-2009, 20:22
I actually have no problem with using all of the Manflayers rules as presented in their original form - which of course includes Dark Vonon = poison attacks. This would be the way I would prefer to play them even though it sets them aside from the rest of the Dark Elf race.




No. The RXB is in the rulebook and not referencing the DE book, so Mengil's guys should keep their normal RXB.


True the RxBow is in the BRB and does not have armour piercing. The BRB also has this to say about RxBows: "Used almost exclusively by the Dark Elves of Naggaroth..." This is in reference to RxBows without armour piercing. Clearly with the new army book this entry in the BRB is out dated. You know GW do actually credit their players with having some intelligence, its just not many care to show it here... :) Have a nice day.

But see, then you are using the 6th edition DE book for dark venom, and the 7th edition book for repeater crossbows. I can't imagine an opponent who would be happy with you doing that. If you use an army book for one reference, you should use it for all references.

nzdarkelf
25-08-2009, 23:46
no if you read my posts again you will see my position is to use the 6th ed all round including non armour piercing xbows.

Someone pointed out that the RxBow being in the BRB stops the argument 4 updating Manflayers to having armour piercing RxBows. I merely quoted the BRB entry; that states that the BRB's RxBow is used exclusively by Dark Elves. This is now incorrect as they use the RxBows in the Dark Elf armybook, that is ones with armour piercing, as opposed to the Rxbows in the BRB which don't.

I also pointed out that GW actually does credit their players with intelligence, but not many chose to show it here.

Sarah S
26-08-2009, 02:11
The army book referenced is the 6th edition book. We all know that.

That said, the Manflayers are incredibly overpriced for their abilities, although the game where I was using my SoC Eshin list with the Manflayers, and they ended up flaying 2 entire units including a Dwarf Lord in the last turn of the game grabbed me something like 500 victory points in bonuses alone!

Unfortunately the times they have done that are far, far overshadowed by the times they have been summarily executed with little effort on behalf of my opponent.

T3 5+ save is simply not worth 19+ (the "+" is for all the extra points for Mengil and the items and so on) points per model... even if they skirmish.

Bloodknight
26-08-2009, 08:04
I think they're awesome, and definitely worth the 360+ points for 10 of them, but then I am a DoW player (they're pretty much a staple of many DoW armies) and a unit that throws out poisoned shots in that amount is great (they will kill a giant pretty effortlessly).
Dark Elf players are probably better off using Shades, though, since these profit from Eternal Hatred and are much cheaper.

nzdarkelf
26-08-2009, 10:18
The one advantage Manflaers have over shades is their banner, which makes them a further -1 to hit (so -2 due to skirmishing). If they have some light cover protection that will make them extremely difficult to beat in a firefight.

Condottiere
26-08-2009, 11:04
It forces you to get into CC, which is what you actually want to do with Manflayers. Their weakness is magic.

Bloodknight
26-08-2009, 11:14
Yep. If you take Manflayers, prepare to use scrolls for magic missiles because they are usually what your opponent really wants to see dead. Also, keep clear of Organ Guns and any other autohit stuff. When I am fighting Dwarfs, the first thing Mengil tries to do is killing the Organ Gun's crew ;).

Condottiere
26-08-2009, 11:46
While short, the Manflayers have more material to work with.

danny-d-b
26-08-2009, 12:35
have to be up there in my favourate ROR along with the dragon lord and the bearmen when I played my dogs of war
best bet is to use them small and hide them in woods so most people will be at -3/4 depending on range (banner, skermish, cover)

Memnos
26-08-2009, 12:43
If you're going to take any Regiment of Renown, consider taking the Truthsayer.

His spell to resurrect one model(Starting with unit champions) from each unit on the table is a Regiment of Renown user's equivalent of 'Joy!'