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View Full Version : What is so bad about flash gitz?



komando
24-08-2009, 15:51
I really dont see why people say flash gitz are so bad.

The_Warsmith
24-08-2009, 15:58
because they are out shone by lootaz as a shooting unit and they compete with battlewagons, killa kanz ect... in the heavy support section

RampagingRavener
24-08-2009, 16:06
Simply put, they don't get enough shots to offset their typically low Orkish BS. This wouldn't be so much a problem if their AP was reliable, and you could use them to hunt small squads of tough things like Terminators, Monstrous Creatures, or Wraithguard. But as it is you can't even guarantee that the few hits they do get won't just be saved. Combine that with the fact they're very expensive and somewhat vulnerable to enemy fire unless you get a Painboy (which further reduces the number of shots you get since he has to give up his Snazzgun) and you're left with, IMO, the flat-out worst unit in the codex. I honestly cannot think of a single situation where Flash Gitz could be useful; even with the More Dakka and Blasta options to try and mitigate their low shots/unreliable AP they simply aren't worth the points.

Give the Snazzgun two shots basic, and a flat AP of 3 (increased to three shots and AP2 by More Dakka/Blasta) and I think they'd be worth using.

Vepr
24-08-2009, 16:15
They are not bad at all it is just the units around them being better for the points and the slot they take up. The ork is pretty good because all the units are not only usable but decent at what they do. It is kind of like Tyranid warriors right now.

They are kind of expensive for what they do but they really are not a bad unit. The only problem is they take up an HQ or elite slot that has much better choices for the points.

pookie
24-08-2009, 16:23
because people use them wrong, they seem to think they compete with other elements of a Ork force, yet the dont, theres quote a lot of people around who actually use them for the role they are designed for ( a shooty Nob Unit ) where as some seem to think they should be a heavy wep unit ala Looters, when they are not.

Fixer
24-08-2009, 16:27
Because they have the misfortune of being a random and merely average unit in an army of no-brainer units and combinations.

The Clairvoyant
24-08-2009, 16:30
i like flash gitz and i use them.

The comparison to lootas seems silly to me. They are not competing with lootas as they fill different roles. A loota can't move and fire and certainly can't fire and assault. The flash git can - and has nob stats and a 4+ save.
If you're using flash gitz as loota replacements, you're doing it wrong!

Also flash gitz look cool and that, above all else, is the reason for using them.


Real Ork players use flash gitz, zzap guns and weirdboyz.
Gamey players use lootas, kanz and mekboyz with kustom force fields

/tar with brush

AFnord
24-08-2009, 16:40
For their base cost you get nob stats, a "free" 'eavy armour, and a better gun. Unuppgraded they are simply a better deal than regular nobz.

The problem comes when you start to add other options. Very few would actually want to run a bare-bone nob mob, right? They want to add a doc, a waaagh! banner and a power klaw or two. Bare bone nobz are decent, but it's the upgrades, in combination with their resilience good stats that makes nobz good (not saying that you are supposed to give every nob in your mob a fancy weapon, I don't (it's good to have some nobz that can take instant kill hits, and they are still good fighters).

Now to make flash gitz decent at shooting, you need to upgrade their guns. Suddenly your "not that expensive" models starts to get expensive, and the more upgrades you give them, the more expensive they will get (of course).
The problem that comes up one you start to play the game is: What do you aim their expensive guns at? Well, there is no correct answer to that question, because they are so random you simply don't know. You can usually take down 4+ save units reliably, but once you get down to 3+ or 2+ they get far too unreliable. Also, unless you aim them at very expensive units all the time (not always possible) then they wont make up their point cost in shooting kills, and you do also pay for their nob stats, so it would only make sense to advance them forward, shoot at the enemy and then charge. But here is the next problem: Without those upgrades that regular nobz gets, flash gits are not that hot in close combat. While they can clobber any shooting unit out there that does not have a great save and high T, they don't fare well against things that can fight back.

So what you are left with is hybrid unit that don't fare too well in either one of their fields. Combine this with the fact that they don't have any dedicated transport option, and you have a lackluster unit. Not "chaos spawn" bad, but still not something that you should bring in a serious game.

That being said, flash gits do present a wonderful conversion opertunity, one that any conversion crazy ork player should not mis out on!

Bonzai
24-08-2009, 19:28
Hmm... I don't have any, but I was thinking that they would be ideal as a gunboat squad. Essentially riding around with the Big Mek in a trukk or Battle Wagon, and making the most of their assault 24 shots. Still... for the points, they should be at least assault 2.

Axel
24-08-2009, 19:53
You pay a lot of points for a close combat squad that happens to leave the axes at home :-)

Flash gits do not really maximize and strength, but are hard enough to break through a lot of opposition on their own.

Not really as efficient as other options, but fun to play. Give them a screen of 30 boyz and you can cover a wing for a meagre 600 pts (oups).

marv335
24-08-2009, 20:50
I thought flash gits could take battlewagons as dedicated transports?

AFnord
24-08-2009, 21:46
No, they can not. I realized that I did make a mistake in my post though. I thought that flash gits costs as much as unupgraded nobz, they do in fact cost as much as nobz with 'eavy armour. Darn my poor memory ;)

Two different things that would save flash gitz:
Assault two included in their point cost, possibility to upgrade them to assault 3.
The option to take a power klaw (even if it's limited to one).

And even then, they would be far from no-brainer options.

Sheena Easton
24-08-2009, 23:04
If they had remained in the Elites section they used to occupy and Lootaz remained in the Heavy Support section they used to occupy then the Gitz would be a more attractive option, and Lootaz less of a no-brainer. I'd also allow them to have a Kaptain upgrade (say +1I, +1A, +1Ld for +10/15 points) or Badrukk would be beneficial - the Kaptain would have access to a limited number of options such as a 'Uge Choppa / Powerklaw, Bosspole, Attack Squig, Mega Armour.

And since they made the Shoota Assault 2, it makes sense that the Snazzgun (which is basically a Kustom Shoota anyway) should also be Assault 2.

Axel
24-08-2009, 23:32
If they had remained in the Elites section they used to occupy and Lootaz remained in the Heavy Support section they used to occupy then the Gitz would be a more attractive option, and Lootaz less of a no-brainer.

Depends.

I rarely use my heavy support slots, and almost always fill out all elite. Swapping them would make Flash Gitz less attractive to me, and Lootaz more of a no-brainer then at the moment.

Captain Micha
24-08-2009, 23:44
What's so bad?

In an army of Super Power Broken units, they are a Balanced unit.

AFnord
24-08-2009, 23:54
What's so bad?

In an army of Super Power Broken units, they are a Balanced unit.
Have you even faced orks? Do you know how to face orks? Orks is a true beginners nightmare, they can steamroll anyone who does not know what he/she is doing with ease, but against a good player the ork player will really have to work for his/her victory. Orks are top tier, up there with eldar and chaos, but apart from nob bikers (who have lost a lot of ground thanks to the new IG release, which means that they are not that powerful in a tournament setting/when you don't know what you are going up against anymore) no unit is actually broken, they have flaws that a good player can use against them.

Captain Micha
25-08-2009, 00:05
If you are using a Top Tier army sure Orks are manageable. Problem is, when you are playing as a Mid Tier or god forbid bottom Tier army. In the case of the latter you have no prayer, short of doing a Dice Jesus.

Even in a tournament setting against the new Ig Nob Bikerz are still disgusting (and this isn't saying anything about the 100 wound burna boy squad in a transport)

saying no unit is broken is usually the vestige of someone using a broken unit or army.

Tell me have you ever offered to swap armies after trouncing someone into the dirt?

AFnord
25-08-2009, 00:11
With 100 wound burna boy squad, you mean 12, right? The fact that you picked one of the worst (3rd worst, according to many ork players) units in the codex as your example makes me wonder...

If you play necrons, and/or pure daemon hunters (no allies), then yes, orks, IG, space marines, chaos marines and eldar will be next to impossible to beat, as long as the player is decent, but the gap between mid tier and top tier is not that great, heck even tau (lower mid tier/upper low tier army) can give orks a good run. Yes, the orks have an advantage, but it's not a huge one, as long as both the players are good, so it will mostly come down to the skill of the individual players (unless it's a killpoint mission, and the ork army is killpoint optimized. Poor tau does not fare well in killpoint missions).

Captain Micha
25-08-2009, 00:43
You can deal around 100 wounds with a squad of burna boyz if you do it right.

I'm surprised you've never seen it done. They just hop in that open topped transport, they zip up to a 10 man squad and then it's 100 wound game over for that squad.

I didn't have it done to me personally *I was watching one of our Eldar players go against the Orks* but that's a pretty scary prospect.

I can beat orks as Ig, mostly courtesy of my massive tank salvos, and artillery. But it's not exactly an enjoyable experience if it's the right Ork army.

Born Again
25-08-2009, 06:37
i like flash gitz and i use them.

The comparison to lootas seems silly to me. They are not competing with lootas as they fill different roles. A loota can't move and fire and certainly can't fire and assault. The flash git can - and has nob stats and a 4+ save.
If you're using flash gitz as loota replacements, you're doing it wrong!

Also flash gitz look cool and that, above all else, is the reason for using them.


Real Ork players use flash gitz, zzap guns and weirdboyz.
Gamey players use lootas, kanz and mekboyz with kustom force fields


Words of wisdom well said!

Hellebore
25-08-2009, 06:57
What is so bad about flash gitz?

They aren't:
Free
Indestructible
Have a 1+ win roll

I think that's about it.

Hellebore

decker_cky
25-08-2009, 07:36
The option for even a single power klaw would've gone a long way to making them very worthwhile. Off the top of my head, they don't get the option for bosspoles either.

Then there's another big drop that hasn't been mentioned yet: How often are nobz taken when they aren't a troop choice? IMO, flash gitz would have fit better as an option for nobz where they trade the entire unit's bolt pistols for snazzguns for free (must purchase 'eavy armour as well). Change the ork boss rule to allow a unit of nobz without bikes to be taken as troops and it all works out.

Darnok
25-08-2009, 07:54
I don't think Flashgitz are bad. Not at all. I will use them, especially because they are a great unit for awesome conversions.

But...

I also see some of their problems. I want them to do some damage and be more resilient than they are already, which gives me a full unit of over 400 points. And I want a transport for them, which adds at least another 100 points. And now I have filled two of my (normally) three HS slots. That is quite a heavy investment at any point level below Apoc size, and plain impossible in games of less than 1000 points.

I'll still use them every now and then, but they come at a bit too high prize in my opinion.

Souleater
25-08-2009, 08:27
The fact that you picked one of the worst (3rd worst, according to many ork players) units in the codex as your example makes me wonder...

Odd, most Ork players I know of giggle with evil glee just at the mention of burnas :eyebrows:

squeekenator
25-08-2009, 09:19
The fact that you picked one of the worst (3rd worst, according to many ork players) units in the codex as your example makes me wonder...

Clearly you haven't faced properly used Burnaz. I played against someone who was trying them out because everyone said they were crap. He had two Battlewagons with 15 Burnaz each. I was playing Nurgle Daemons. He drove up to a Plaguebearer squad (front AV14, not much chance of stopping it) and dumped 15 burnaz on them. 7 Plaguebearers were hit by the template, which was 105 S4 hits. 13 Plaguebearers died. These were Plaguebearers, the second toughest Troops choice in the game, and they only barely survived. Against pretty much anything else, that would have instantly killed the whole squad. Burna Boyz are ridiculous.

Corrode
25-08-2009, 09:22
because people use them wrong, they seem to think they compete with other elements of a Ork force, yet the dont, theres quote a lot of people around who actually use them for the role they are designed for ( a shooty Nob Unit ) where as some seem to think they should be a heavy wep unit ala Looters, when they are not.

This isn't entirely accurate, but it's a good first look at the problem. Really there's three things wrong with Flash Gitz

1) If you want high-powered shooting at range, Lootaz do it far better for less points with much better guns (and you know what you can do with them, whereas with the Gitz you run the risk of the AP not being up to scratch).
2) If you want a ton of low-powered shots followed by a heavy assault, Shoota Boyz do it better for cheaper. They might not have a 4+ save out of the box (though you can upgrade them to 'Ard Boyz and make them so) and they have an equivalent number of wounds, but they'll get more shots and they're a Troops choice competing with Gretchin or Slugga Boyz whereas Flash Gitz are HS competing with Battlewagons, Deff Dreads and Kanz.
3) If you want a heavy assault unit with some incidental good shooting, well, normal Nobz can be Troops, tooled out to hit like a train, and still get some incidental shooting with TL shootas/kombi-shootas etc.

If 'flash gitz' were simply an option for a regular mob of Nobz (i.e. you could make them Troops, still had options to take a PK or two, etc.) they'd probably work much better at their role. As it stands, though, you're better off just taking a unit for a specific role than using Flash Gitz to cover two bases nowhere near as well. They're not terrible, they're just... not good.

P.S. Micha god damn, get the chip off your shoulder. Your main army is the best in the game for Ork-killing right now, but then I guess considering that the armies you don't play are OMGOPBROKEN (Mechdar anyone?) and the armies you do play are OMGSKILL2WIN (Guard, Tau, Necrons) reasonable argument won't work.

AFnord
25-08-2009, 11:17
I have done driveby burning, and yes, when you actually manage to do that, then they are fantastic. The thing is that most players will simply destroy their transport. Unless you run multiple dangerous units in BWs, then the burna BW sill simply be a big red target (this is of course unless your opponent don't have any weapons that are good at dealing with light vehicles, in which case it's likely that your opponent will try to take down whatever trukk contains nobz). Once on foot burnas are easy to deal with.

When I use my burnas (I have 12 models left over from last edition) it's usually because I want them to work, but my opponent quickly realized their potential danger, so they usually don't survive long enough to make it across the field.

Mannimarco
25-08-2009, 12:36
theres nothing wrong with flashgitz, i really dont understand why theres no love for them

every ork army ive seen around here includes some, granted theyre a low BS shooty unit but with their high strenght random AP with a few upgrades to make them even more shooty

those upgrades are expensive and soon add up to a unit that are unlikely to earn their points back but if your using them to shoot grunts your doing somthing wrong, point them at the juiciest heavy infantry target you can and open fire, they still have a fair chance of hitting and killing it with their upgrades

plus its the way to go if your making freebooterz, couple of warbosses, elite nobz, troop nobz and heavy support nobz (which flash gitz are, lets face it)

marv335
25-08-2009, 12:42
You can deal around 100 wounds with a squad of burna boyz if you do it right.

I'm surprised you've never seen it done. They just hop in that open topped transport, they zip up to a 10 man squad and then it's 100 wound game over for that squad.

I didn't have it done to me personally *I was watching one of our Eldar players go against the Orks* but that's a pretty scary prospect.

I can beat orks as Ig, mostly courtesy of my massive tank salvos, and artillery. But it's not exactly an enjoyable experience if it's the right Ork army.

I did that to a squad of deathwing terminators on saturday.
Killed one of them.
One!
Although I do so love making things do the burny dance.

Corrode
25-08-2009, 12:50
e: @Mannimarco The problem being that the exact use for them that you just indicated (taking out heavy infantry with shooting) is the thing which they fail heavily at doing, because of the variable AP and low rate of fire they have even after heavy upgrades. 10 Gitz (max squad size) with all upgrades, shooting at Tactical Marines (fairly medium infantry) gets:

20 shots @ BS2: 6 hits.
6 wounds @ S6 v T4 = 5 wounds
Variable AP: with Blasta you have a 66% chance of rolling AP3 or better.
AP1-3 = 5 kills assuming no cover, 2.5 kills assuming cover.
AP4-6 = 1.65 kills with a 3+ save.
Gets Hot! = 3.32 wounds on the Nobs, or 1.66 wounds after 4+ saves.

33% of the time a squad of Flash Gitz will do as many wounds to itself as it will to a squad of Tactical Marines - Marines cost 170 without a transport, fully-upgrade Gitz cost 400 (not including Painboy or Cybork bodies, which brings it up to 480pts although it does mean that you only lose 0.83 wounds per round of shooting from Gets Hot!)

For comparison's sake:

30 Shoota Boyz w/ PK Nob and 3x big shoota (230pts, less than half the Gitz)

53 shots @ BS2 = 17.49 hits
9 big shoota shots @ BS2 = 2.97 hits
17.49 hits @ S4 v. T4 = 8.745 wounds
2.97 hits @ S5 v. T4 = 1.96 wounds
Total 10.705 wounds vs. 3+ save = 3.5 dead Marines

The two mobs of Shootas you can buy for the single squad of Nobz would kill 7 Marines, compared to either 5 or 1.65 depending on unreliable AP. On top of that they can hold objectives, and still do the business in combat (Flash Gitz would get 40 S5 attacks on the charge, hitting at same Init, whereas the Shootas would get 86 @ S4+ 4 PKs, but going second).

Lowmans
25-08-2009, 13:00
They're a great fun and 'Orky' unit and there's lots of scope for conversion and such.

Have to agree with others and say there are more powerful places to spend your points..... but.... who cares?!

Mr.Rotty
25-08-2009, 13:22
Have to agree with others and say there are more powerful places to spend your points..... but.... who cares?!

Seconded...

Born Again
25-08-2009, 14:29
Also, they let you take Kaptin Badrukk, who is just a damn cool character with an amazing model!

Dez
25-08-2009, 15:18
One problem I see is that players just look at the unit, and not their army as a whole. Try using a unit of Flash Gitz backed up by Killa Kanz with Big Shootaz. Also, the Weirdboy was practically made to go with them.

I use them all the time, and players around here have learned to fear them.

Xarius
25-08-2009, 16:36
Odd, most Ork players I know of giggle with evil glee just at the mention of burnas :eyebrows:

only if you use them in a battlewagon, without it they cost as much as a marine and die, most weapons dont give them a save and they have to get real close, where you then have to decide if thy should flame or charge in with power weapons (if they dont kill the entire squad they will be charged and probably die)

flash gits are:

expensive
unreliable
competing with great units (kans and wagons) for 3 FO slots
outshot by an elite choice (lootas) that's not competing with too much in FO
using short range weapons (for a heavy firepower unit)
squishy, they will be targeted by big guns and wont survive unless you buy an expensive flash git.

Corrode
25-08-2009, 16:43
One problem I see is that players just look at the unit, and not their army as a whole. Try using a unit of Flash Gitz backed up by Killa Kanz with Big Shootaz. Also, the Weirdboy was practically made to go with them.

I use them all the time, and players around here have learned to fear them.

The problem with Gitz is that you'd get better results doing the exact same thing but with two big, Fearless mobs of Shootaz rather than one small, vulnerable mob of Gitz.

gorgon
25-08-2009, 19:04
Burna Boyz have a very high offensive output when mounted. Disembarked, not so much, and they're fragile once they're out. And one meltagun is all it takes to eliminate that transport. Remember, Burnas can't fire if the transport moves more than 6". So the transport would have to be right on top of you to get the kind of multi-model hit you're talking about.

In other words, if you had this happen to you it's partially your fault for ignoring a transport full of flamer templates right in front of you.

Re: Flash Gitz, I know the prevailing opinion here is that *everything* is useful. So I'll roll with that, but amend it Orwell-style to say that while everything is useful, some things are more useful than others. Flash Gitz aren't in the "more useful" category.

If you want an underrated Ork unit, Tankbustas are it.

Captain Micha
26-08-2009, 01:08
I did that to a squad of deathwing terminators on saturday.
Killed one of them.
One!
Although I do so love making things do the burny dance.

Wow, I wish I had your opponent's luck.

stormboy
26-08-2009, 03:12
I like Flashgits. They can be unpredictable, sure... but like any unit you have to learn how to use them properly. They add a great support element and can absorb a ton of firepower. Mine took a charge from Genestealers and sent them packing (luck was on their side) and yet they have also run after one turn of being blasted.

I run a very shooty army and sure lootas are the kings and mobs of shooty boys are strong.... but nothing gives my army that "cool and neat" feeling like the Flashgits. Certainly, I am more of a narrative player and prefer enjoying the game then kicking someone's balls in... but there is a place for every unit in the game. "Crappy" units and "super mathhammer" units included.

decker_cky
26-08-2009, 07:02
I did that to a squad of deathwing terminators on saturday.
Killed one of them.
One!
Although I do so love making things do the burny dance.

Your luck sucks. But terminators are one of the few cases where you're probably better to not burn, but hope out of the transport and use the burnas as power weapons, or at least split it 50/50.

Brucopeloso
26-08-2009, 12:32
I did that to a squad of deathwing terminators on saturday.
Killed one of them.
One!
Although I do so love making things do the burny dance.

That's when you use the burna as a power weapon instead! ;)

gorgon
26-08-2009, 18:41
Even on Terminators, I'd probably usually stay embarked and fire the burna. Burnas tend to become a big target and take a beating as soon as they step outside.