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Von Wibble
24-08-2009, 17:06
Hi all

There is currently a thread in general discussion asking about why there are useless magic items in every book. I thought I'd start this one in a similar vain to Mad_Doctor's useless units thread, and try to list uses for percieved useless items in each army book. Of course, it is likely that some items have pretty much no use for the points - but there are a lot of items I dislike that are popular in other armies, and items I like that aren't used elsewhere.

Example - Dark Elf Hydra's Teeth

Gives you 5 teeth which can be used in shooting phase. Each one inflicts D6 WS2 S3 attacks if it hits. Up to 2 attacks can be allocated to characters / champions.

Why is it useless?

Look at the numbers. A character can expect to hit 4 times, therefore gets 14 attacks. That's 3.5 wounds and likely 2 actual kills against bog standard WS3 T3 4+ save infantry. And most infantry is better than that. You might as well buy an extra 4 crossbomen for the price.

What uses are there?

The main use I can see is to have a KB assassin in the unit. Place yourself in position to be charged by an enemy unit containing the hardest combat character he has. Stand and shoot, targetting the enemy champion as much as possible. Then your assassin challenges, and his main character either loses all his attacks or accepts, and runs the risk of being eliminated.

Alternative - with no assassin in the unit, eliminating the champion allows you to challenge with your champion and let the high CR of your spearmen do its job.

3rd alternative - It provides a shooting attack for a monster mounted character, and somethng to do whilst getting into position for that flank charge and breating fire. Taking out the champion of the unit you plan to charge next turn also prevents his own pesky challenge from ruining your charge.

Example - High Elf Radiant Gem of Hoeth

Makes the user a level 1 wizard who rolls his spell from one of the 8 rulebook lores.

Why useless?

A level 1 wizard generates just 1 power dice. That means you are only really going to be able to cast spells with casting value 7 or less. Also, for just a few more points than a radiant gem noble you can get a level 2 wizard, who can focus on casting better- after all, a noble with no magic weapon will be limited in how much damage he can do. Finally it takes up pretty much all your magic item allowance.

Why useful?

I almost always take this item, on a mounted noble with full armour and lance.
Extra dispel dice are always welcome. Being able to have an extra dispel dice on a model that can still get 3 S6 attacks on charge with 2+ save is worth most of the points already. Then there's the casting. The trick is to choose a lore with a good first spell, and just have a plan for using that spell. If there aer better spells in the lore with accessible casting values then great! Since my noble is mounted, beasts is out (though a popular choice) as are light and Shadow. Since I want a spell that I can cast all teh tmie that rules out Fire, Metal and Death. That leaves Life (terrain dependant) and Heavens.

I usually go for heavens. If I roll a 2 then great! Rerolls to hit for a crucial charge or single RBT shot, or rerolls of somebodies ward saves. But spell 1 is usually the one I get. A great spell that the noble can cast, allowing improved shooting in early turns, and then ensuring the dragon princes / swordmasters reroll 1s to hit and wound.

In summary, I find the extra dispel dice and extra half spell to be well worth the points over a noble equipped with something else, and the improve LD and combat ability plus lower cost to edge out the extra power dice from a Level 2.

Finally - not sure if this is allowed but I think it is - a character with this counts as a wizard. Therefore I think they can have arcane items. So you could have a prince with lance and decent armour save act as a scroll caddy, and have no other mages. A risk, but an interesting one to try.

Jushak
24-08-2009, 23:06
I like the idea of this thread :p

Only really have one item in WoC that I find really bad, but I'll mention it anyway to get this thread going.

The Beguiling Gem - At start of close combat, all enemy models in base contact must take leadership test. If failed they can't attack and are automatically hit.

Why bad: Overpriced and unreliable, effectiveness depends on average Ld of the opponent.
How to make it better: Abuse the wording "base contact". Take big mount, stick the user in middle of a unit with multiple attacks and allocate attacks on auto-hittable models. Possibilities include Dragon Ogres, Trolls as well as Knights.

Skywave
25-08-2009, 03:20
Tomb King Amulet of Pha-Stah

What it do: Prevent all enemy arcane items, enchanted items and talisman/runic talisman to work when in base contact. Bearer can't have other magic items.

Why useless: Mostly because of many other good stuff in the list, never saw it in any list. Probably less "broken" items back in 6th edition too.

What can it do: While it can be situational (or best use when tailoring), it can be great to remove some annoying item. Dark Elf pendant, Van Horstman, most ward, etc. all stop working when in base contact. While it will be the character only magic item, Tomb King and Prince have more then decent profile to be able to fight on. You can even give that to a Prince, and let the King have some more killy toys, and deploy them in the same unit (chariot preferably). Charge in and ensure that both character have base contact with the enemy character, and challenge with the King. That way the enemy will still loose his items so the King will have an easier time to kill his target. Should work great on lone character on mounstrous mount too.

PARTYCHICORITA
25-08-2009, 03:33
I've recently beeing running my HE bsb on foot with the mask of merlord which is pretty useless magic item. Why? :

Beeing only 10pts it allows me to give the bsb either the ring of fury or the reaver bow while still being able to get a 2+ save if using a shield or a 4+ one if using a great weapon.

TheSanityAssassin
25-08-2009, 03:39
I've recently beeing running my HE bsb on foot with the mask of merlord which is pretty useless magic item. Why? :

Beeing only 10pts it allows me to give the bsb either the ring of fury or the reaver bow while still being able to get a 2+ save if using a shield or a 4+ one if using a great weapon.

I do that ALL the time. 10 points for +1 save that doesn't take an armour or shield slot is fantastic.

Once I even found a river to stand in. I made myself do it just because. Got hit with a cannon.

Condottiere
25-08-2009, 03:54
You need a swamp, with half a dozen Shadow Warriors, one of which is an inch away on the dry side, giving LOS.

Lord Dan
25-08-2009, 03:59
Empire Runefang

What it does: All hits automatically wound with no armor saves.
Why it's Useless: Far too expensive. If you take it your lord can literally take nothing else, and with so much ASF floating around there's no guarantee that you'll be able to drop whatever is standing in front of you before it can hurt you (potentially making a crumpled can out of your best-possible 1+ armor save).

How to use it:
Don't pick fights! It's a leader, not an assassin. Don't get overexcited about the effects of the weapon and try to take down enemy lords. Instead, focus on dropping enemy RAF models for the extra CR and let your unit champion take the challenge (let's be honest... it's why he's there).

Condottiere
25-08-2009, 05:42
How about Talisman of Protection - 6+ Ward?

The only one who could find that useful is Tzeentch.

Bloodknight
25-08-2009, 07:13
And Skaven. It's the only defensive item that you can combine usefully with the Fellblade, and it can save a wound or so that the FB causes on the bearer.

Zilverug
25-08-2009, 10:04
And Skaven. It's the only defensive item that you can combine usefully with the Fellblade, and it can save a wound or so that the FB causes on the bearer.

And Paymasters.

And anyone other character costing over 90 points (including magic items) that has at least 15 points of magic item allowance left and no ward save yet.

Condottiere
25-08-2009, 10:29
I wouldn't even risk a 3 wound character on 16.67% chance that it works.

Von Wibble
25-08-2009, 11:53
Well, ignoring attacks that inflict multiple wounds, think of the talismanof protection as a chance to gain an extra wound. Its a 1 in 6 chance each time you are owunded so thats 3 times. Therefore the odds of it not saving you at all are 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 125/216.

So think of the talisman as 15pts for a roughly 50% chance of +1 wound. Considering +1 Wound is supposedly priced around 50pts, that's not such a bad deal. On a model with more wounds the deal gets even better. Needless to say an elf champion doesn't get this item!

Just to add on what was said about the beguiling gem - bas to base contact, assuming you are mounted on a big base, will cause many enemy units to take 4 ld checks. Unless hes checking on ld 10 for them, its a good chance he'll fail one. So the item used under these circumstances is reducing enemies attacks by 1 and making one of your attacks auto hit (more likely your underlings who could have worse odds to start with). Not a bad effect at all. And the jackpot of course is when the enemy units have multiple attacks.

Also consider the synergy of having the gem in a unit with the doom banner.

Sword of Striking

Why Useless? - It costs more than the sword of might. You compare +1 to hit with +1 to wound and -1 to enemy armour saves and it doesn't look good.

Uses - S5 characters facing T3 troops already dent their armour and are 2+ to wound. With the sword of striking you are 2s to hit and 2s to wound. Very reliable.

The sword of striking also becomes very useful when you start to consider that there are a number of items out there that modify enemy chances to hit, or fix tehm at a certain value. When facing the annoyance of netlings the sword of striking doubles your potential as you now hi on 5s not 6s. Against the golden shield and armour of damnation you are similarly improving your odds a lot more. Whereas iirc there is only 1 item in the game that makes models reroll successful to wounds.

happy_doctor
25-08-2009, 12:04
Great idea, Von Wibble! (It's Happy_doctor, btw :D )

First off, let me say that useless items are great fun to use! They add variety to your list and provide with a good laugh when they actually work.

On a side note for the Radiant Gem of Hoeth, I'd say the best lore to use is the lore of High Magic; you get an extra drain magic spell, plus whatever else you roll. Shield of asuryan is actually a decent spell for a level 1 caster.

Skaven Headsplitter:
A 40-points sling that only has an effect against T5+ opponents, not the greatest item when combined with the relatively low BS of skaven characters.
However, it gives your BSB hiding in the back of a unit something to do when not in combat. The sling's primary targets are large monsters, which can be seen from the back rank of a unit.
If you factor in the +1 to hit for Large, plus the moving, long range/double shot penalties, this gives you either one or two shots hitting on 4+ and wounding on 2+ without saves. Not great, but it can be a nasty surprise for an already wounded dragon.

shartmatau
25-08-2009, 16:48
I'd make note of the Runefang as well. I thought it was really horrible when i read its description. The guy using it only has 3 attacks, giving him a +Strength weapon will most likely net you the same result. Then I figured I would mount him and use him as the hammer that breaks knight units, autowounds on knights who dont get their heavy save would punish an expensive unit of cav.

mr_vespa
25-08-2009, 19:09
Sword of Striking

Why Useless? - It costs more than the sword of might. You compare +1 to hit with +1 to wound and -1 to enemy armour saves and it doesn't look good.

Uses - S5 characters facing T3 troops already dent their armour and are 2+ to wound. With the sword of striking you are 2s to hit and 2s to wound. Very reliable.

The sword of striking also becomes very useful when you start to consider that there are a number of items out there that modify enemy chances to hit, or fix tehm at a certain value. When facing the annoyance of netlings the sword of striking doubles your potential as you now hi on 5s not 6s. Against the golden shield and armour of damnation you are similarly improving your odds a lot more. Whereas iirc there is only 1 item in the game that makes models reroll successful to wounds.

To add to the uses, but this is strictly for the Empire:

Uses - Arch Lectors and Generals (I wouldn't include a Wizard Lord here, I think Flaming Sword of Rhuin is a better choice for combat) using Von Horstmann's Speculum may find the Sword of Striking very useful (and a less pricey option) considering the VHS' known effects and the fact that the character will more often than not be squaring off against enemies that trump his baseline stats. When switching stats with a superior enemy, all of the VHS' user's hits will only require a 2 to strike at its foe.


Great idea, Von Wibble! (It's Happy_doctor, btw :D )
On a side note for the Radiant Gem of Hoeth, I'd say the best lore to use is the lore of High Magic; you get an extra drain magic spell, plus whatever else you roll. Shield of asuryan is actually a decent spell for a level 1 caster.

That's Shield of Saphery, eh? :D

Von Wibble
25-08-2009, 19:40
Great idea, Von Wibble! (It's Happy_doctor, btw :D )



:eek: Possibly Mad if I get your name wrong again!

For some reason I thought radiant gem didn't allow high magic. Even better that it does as Shield of Saphery is always a useful spell to have, as well as drain magic for a very flexible wizard, and curse of arrow attraction can be OK if the army is geared towards it.

iamfanboy
25-08-2009, 19:52
Hm, I'll chime in with some Vampire Counts stuff (seeing as how that's what I've played for a long time).

The Cursed Book.
What it does:For one round, you can reduce enemy models to WS1 when hitting the bearer.
Why useless? ONE. ROUND. Not only that, WS1 doesn't mean 'can't' hit, it just reduces them to a 5+ to hit. Plus, any character you give this to is probably not going to be hit by R&F on less than a 5+ anyway.
Useful? Speculum-users would hate this, especially if you stuck it on a Wight King in a unit with Banner of the Barrows. Because it's an effect that you choose when to trigger it, it would go something like, "I use my Speculum." "OK, eat my Cursed Book." Vampires have competition for good magic items, but a Wight King doesn't need too much - maybe a Sword of Kings if you want to increase your Killing Blow nastiness, or a Gem of Blood if you really think the chance to cause an extra wound is worth 25 points.

Come to think of it, it'd work out fairly well on a Wight King regardless - with a Barrows standard, you'd be hitting on a 2+ in a challenge, swap the shield for an extra hand weapon, give it the Sword of Kings... yeah, you'd probably be guaranteed a dead character. snicker-snak!

artyboy
25-08-2009, 20:54
Tomb Blade:

What it does: Cause a wound in combat and you get to raise a skeleton. It works like invocation of nehek.
Why it sucks: Skeles are generally considered to be a worse troop choice than ghouls for any vampire list. As far as I'm concerned it's a tossup. I think that skeletons have the potential to be better because of their higher static combat res. That does create a liability, though, because more standards = more potential victory points for your opponent.
Useful? - For 25 points you get a magic weapon that creates a skeleton every time the user causes a wound. If that user has lord of the dead then you can raise the unit past it's starting size. With 3 attacks on a normal vampire and very good combat stats you'll probably end up averaging enough skeletons every turn to be equal to an extra invocation of nehek spell being cast. If you're fighting a heavy anti magic army this can be vital to keep at least one skele unit topped off. The item is cheap enough that you can also give your vamp another useful item like the flayed hauberk to ensure that he can hang in combat for a few rounds.

Von Wibble
26-08-2009, 11:33
Hm, I'll chime in with some Vampire Counts stuff (seeing as how that's what I've played for a long time).

The Cursed Book.
What it does:For one round, you can reduce enemy models to WS1 when hitting the bearer.
Why useless? ONE. ROUND. Not only that, WS1 doesn't mean 'can't' hit, it just reduces them to a 5+ to hit. Plus, any character you give this to is probably not going to be hit by R&F on less than a 5+ anyway.
Useful? Speculum-users would hate this, especially if you stuck it on a Wight King in a unit with Banner of the Barrows. Because it's an effect that you choose when to trigger it, it would go something like, "I use my Speculum." "OK, eat my Cursed Book." Vampires have competition for good magic items, but a Wight King doesn't need too much - maybe a Sword of Kings if you want to increase your Killing Blow nastiness, or a Gem of Blood if you really think the chance to cause an extra wound is worth 25 points.

Come to think of it, it'd work out fairly well on a Wight King regardless - with a Barrows standard, you'd be hitting on a 2+ in a challenge, swap the shield for an extra hand weapon, give it the Sword of Kings... yeah, you'd probably be guaranteed a dead character. snicker-snak!

The cursed book also works well on a Zombie Dragon. Nobody likes being 6s to hit, and many things tooled up to kill a dragon only get 1 ruond in which to do their task. My VC opponent always uses it (though not necessarily on a dragon).

But you can't have a magic weapon and extra hand weapon (a few exceptions such as dagger of hotek)

Gaargod
26-08-2009, 11:44
Find a use for the Dragonfly of Quicksilver. Go on, i dare you!
10pts magic item for +1 to scouts roll. Seriously... Its not like its even 'my scouts go first, screw you'.

Sorry, i just felt like being negative. Nice idea for a threa btw :D

Von Wibble
26-08-2009, 11:57
The first post did say there were some items that can't be defended. I think the dragonfly is better than the Serpent Staff or of course the Bretonnian wafers.

Lets see

Dragonfly of QuickSilver

Why Useless? - Because Gaargod said it was ;) I will add that the biggest nerf is that skink skirmishers may no longer scout - in the previous edition you could easily have 3 units of scouts and put the kibosh on any nasty plans with waywatchers, shades and the like. The nerf to chameleon skinks doesn't help either.

Why useful? - Against armies with scouts, there may be positions you really don't want them to end up in. You may also have noticed places on the battlefield where you can set up your scouts to put maximum hurt on the opponent, and therefore need him not to steal. I would say if your army has 2 or more units of chameleon skinks its not exactly an expensive boost for 10pts. It can be taken on a character with room for a magic weapon or ward.

CuddlyCuteKitten
26-08-2009, 12:13
The first post did say there were some items that can't be defended. I think the dragonfly is better than the Serpent Staff or of course the Bretonnian wafers.

Lets see

Dragonfly of QuickSilver

Why Useless? - Because Gaargod said it was ;) I will add that the biggest nerf is that skink skirmishers may no longer scout - in the previous edition you could easily have 3 units of scouts and put the kibosh on any nasty plans with waywatchers, shades and the like. The nerf to chameleon skinks doesn't help either.

Why useful? - Against armies with scouts, there may be positions you really don't want them to end up in. You may also have noticed places on the battlefield where you can set up your scouts to put maximum hurt on the opponent, and therefore need him not to steal. I would say if your army has 2 or more units of chameleon skinks its not exactly an expensive boost for 10pts. It can be taken on a character with room for a magic weapon or ward.

Why useless? Because it costs 10 pts and only gives you a slight improvement on the chance that you may deploy your scouts first.

Why usefull? Because there is a single two story building on the battlefield and your opponent is a DE who has 10 shades. If he gets his shades in that building it doesn't really matter what else you do (unless you have Mazmundi of course...)

Keller
26-08-2009, 14:55
Great idea for a thread!

Empire:

Mace of Helstrum
Why its bad? For 60 points, you forfeit all attacks for 1 S10, D6 wound attack. It can still miss (especially with Empire's notoriusly low WS) may not even kill whatever you do hit. Combined with the fact that its cost restricts it to Lords, and Empire Lords provide an important leadership boost that you can't risk in combat, it is not often taken.

Why can it be good? The Mace provides a good way to deal with enemy monsters or tough characters which hide from your cannons. Suddenly your S4, A3 GotE can actually bring down a Vampire, Chaos Lord, or Tyrant in a single round of combat. The high Strength with smash all armor saves, wound anything on a 2+, and have a 66% chance to kill most Lord level characters. Couple with the priest's "Hammer of Sigmar" or Heavens's rerolls, you can bring down most anything; all the while saving the VHS for another character, granting more flexibility. As for protection, Empire characters can get a 1+ AS w/o magic items, and still have room for a 5+ WS.


Empire Standard of the Daemonslayer
What it does: Knights only. Unit causes Fear when charging.
Why its useless? For 50 points, the unit should cause fear all of the time.
Can it be useful? Given that knights will probably not often outnumber most units, this banner looks a bit iffy. However, causing fear also grants them the immunity to fear, which can make them very reliable against Undead, Daemons, or any monsters you come across. We all hate those failed charges because your men are cowering, and with Ld8 of the Empire, that may happen more than you like. The Daemonslayer can help you get your knights to do their job when their grandmaster is not on the field.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-08-2009, 01:19
...or of course the Bretonnian wafers.Oh, geez.

Why Useless: You get extra power dice with the caveat that you cannot use them (or indeed the character's own starting dice). This was basically an edition-destruction.

What it could do: The extra dice can still be used to dispel remains in play spells. :D

Okay, that's sad and silly.

Hey, I was thinking about the Bow of the Seafarer on the Prince of a Lothern army. What else would you take on such a character? An eagle, for best shots? A barded horse, for best protection? (Dragons are right out...) And for protection, a guardian phoenix, or maybe helm of fortune?

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 04:05
I've never found a prince is able to make up his points if he's flying around shooting things. I'd just take a noble with the reaver bow and try to roll up some war machines.

Von Wibble
28-08-2009, 13:09
Hey, I was thinking about the Bow of the Seafarer on the Prince of a Lothern army. What else would you take on such a character? An eagle, for best shots? A barded horse, for best protection? (Dragons are right out...) And for protection, a guardian phoenix, or maybe helm of fortune?

Dragons are not right out.

I used a dragon rider with bow of the seafarer last game. You get the shots in turns 1, 3, and 5 when setting up the killer charge. I think even shooting for just half the game the item is worth its points, and providnig a major punch in combat justifies that for me.

For protection, Armour of protection is one option. Guardian Phoenix and Talisman of Loec would be another combo, as the talisman gives a potent enough charge combined with a simple lance. Total price for such a model is a little under 600pts (Star dragon variant).

The Eagle does provide a cheaper platform for shots. However, it needs taking care of a lot more than a dragon and provides nothing else for the lord. I wouldn't use it on a barded steed myself as it becomes much more difficult to claim enfilading fire. That said, your total price is a little under 300pts. For a model that won't do anything other than shoot I don't think its worth it - I'd rather pay the 300 more and have a character with a much tougher mount and good combat capabilities, or pay less points and do as Lord Dan suggests with a Reaver Bow Noble.

gaiaterra
28-08-2009, 13:53
Great idea for a thread!
Empire Standard of the Daemonslayer
What it does: Knights only. Unit causes Fear when charging.
Why its useless? For 50 points, the unit should cause fear all of the time.
Can it be useful? Given that knights will probably not often outnumber most units, this banner looks a bit iffy. However, causing fear also grants them the immunity to fear, which can make them very reliable against Undead, Daemons, or any monsters you come across. We all hate those failed charges because your men are cowering, and with Ld8 of the Empire, that may happen more than you like. The Daemonslayer can help you get your knights to do their job when their grandmaster is not on the field.

I though the Standard of the Daemonslayer only activated as you charged and as a unit tests for fear before it charges the banner does not stop your men cowering.

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 16:53
Dragons are not right out.

I used a dragon rider with bow of the seafarer last game. You get the shots in turns 1, 3, and 5 when setting up the killer charge. I think even shooting for just half the game the item is worth its points, and providnig a major punch in combat justifies that for me.

Isn't it a 60 point item? How are you making up the points for that firing 3 turns out of the game (when one of those turns it's statistically not going to do anything at all)? You're far better off spending points to ensure the prince can actually win whatever combat he gets himself into.

Von Wibble
28-08-2009, 18:17
3 chaos knight killed by enfilading fire = 120pts. Double my points in 2 shots. Job done.

Condottiere
28-08-2009, 19:15
If you're sitting on a Dragon, the Prince still has to make up around another 500 points.

Von Wibble
28-08-2009, 19:32
Which has never been a problem for a dragon rider before. The way I see it, by taking the Bow you don't lose much combat ability since most high elf magic weapons don't add that much killing power compared to just taking a lance (plus talisman of loec to make sure).

You pay off the bow's points cost in the 3 turns of shooting that you get when lining up charges, by going for enfilading fire on heavy cavalry. The only time this won't happen is usually vs Skaven and Dwarfs, but its valid pretty much everywhere else.

You pay off the Dragon's points cost in the 3 charges you get, since taking out a unit plus character plus banner tends to easily yield that many victory points.

Throw in terror, fire breathing, and you definately have the potential to pay off points cost. Finally, if the enemy has a monster of his own and wants to charge your dragon, you have a very useful stand and shoot reaction, that will certainly make any monster that has suffered some wounds already think twice.

Condottiere
28-08-2009, 19:49
The prince seems awfully vulnerable to counter-battery fire.

Lord 0
28-08-2009, 23:01
Great idea for a thread!

Empire:

Mace of Helsturm
Why its bad? For 60 points, you forfeit all attacks for 1 S10, D6 wound attack. It can still miss (especially with Empire's notoriusly low WS) may not even kill whatever you do hit. Combined with the fact that its cost restricts it to Lords, and Empire Lords provide an important leadership boost that you can't risk in combat, it is not often taken.


This is an *awesome* weapon and I take it nearly all the time I take my Light Wizard Lord. This plus the Armour of Tarnus (light armour, 5+ ward) plus a barded steed plus the Flashbang spell if I am lucky gives him a pretty good chance in a duel except against the most tooled up combat monsters. This in turn allows me to to put the dreaded Van Horstman's Speculum on some level 1 wizard for more laffs in duels.

Valaraukar
28-08-2009, 23:10
I though the Standard of the Daemonslayer only activated as you charged and as a unit tests for fear before it charges the banner does not stop your men cowering.

I think it activates when you declare the charge, so would be in effect when you would take the fear test. It then lasts for the rest of the turn.

Von Wibble
29-08-2009, 10:30
The prince seems awfully vulnerable to counter-battery fire.

He is. A 5+ ward save with 4+ armour save or 3+ rerollable armour save is about as good as it gets, or Sacred Incense for -1 to be hit (doesn't help vs cannons thoguh) And also vulnerable to magic. Since I usually face chaos, daemons or vampires, I don't often worry about shooting though.

But yes, you can't be too arrogant with him. Lets face it, even without the bow, the best protection you can get is a 4+ rerollable save and 4+ ward for 55pts of magic items (3+ rerollable if you spend 80pts on protection) which isn't that much better, so I don't think you lose much. Unless you are discussing the merits of mounting a prince on a dragon with any setup - but that's for a different thread.

Mace of Helstrum - best given to wizard lords, who only have 1 attack anyway, or arch lectors, who only lose 1 attack from it, and get to reroll their to hit roll. I prefer the Arch Lector option since the Wizard Lord is not going to get too much protection (armour of tarnus is as good as it gets) - I'd quite like a chance of surviving a round of blows before striking.

gaiaterra is correct using RAW about the banner of the Daemonslayer. Fear checks are taken as soon as you declare the charge, then range is checked. The Banner activates from the moment the charge is found o be in range - ie after fear check are taken. RAI is another matter - I would certainly prefer to play it as the unit ignoring fear when charging even if I were facing Empire.

chippyman64
29-08-2009, 16:05
DE- 35pt take Ld check on 3d6 if fail loose 1 randomly determained spell. Good if you get it off on lord kroak. OH WHATS THAT YOU ONLY HAVE 1 SPELL OHH DEAR...

Freman Bloodglaive
29-08-2009, 19:23
He is. A 5+ ward save with 4+ armour save or 3+ rerollable armour save is about as good as it gets, or Sacred Incense for -1 to be hit (doesn't help vs cannons thoguh) And also vulnerable to magic. Since I usually face chaos, daemons or vampires, I don't often worry about shooting though.

But yes, you can't be too arrogant with him. Lets face it, even without the bow, the best protection you can get is a 4+ rerollable save and 4+ ward for 55pts of magic items (3+ rerollable if you spend 80pts on protection) which isn't that much better, so I don't think you lose much. Unless you are discussing the merits of mounting a prince on a dragon with any setup - but that's for a different thread.

Mace of Helstrum - best given to wizard lords, who only have 1 attack anyway, or arch lectors, who only lose 1 attack from it, and get to reroll their to hit roll. I prefer the Arch Lector option since the Wizard Lord is not going to get too much protection (armour of tarnus is as good as it gets) - I'd quite like a chance of surviving a round of blows before striking.

Although you do have to tool up the Arch Lector still. Heavy armour, shield, barded warhorse, white cloak. Let's face it, the kind of enemy that you want to hit with the Mace (unless it's a castle) will tend to sneer at a 2+/5+ save (though it would be much better if they were using a flaming weapon, is it possible to cast sword of Rhuin on an enemy model?).


gaiaterra is correct using RAW about the banner of the Daemonslayer. Fear checks are taken as soon as you declare the charge, then range is checked. The Banner activates from the moment the charge is found to be in range - ie after fear check are taken. RAI is another matter - I would certainly prefer to play it as the unit ignoring fear when charging even if I were facing Empire.

Yes, rules as written it's quite worthless against fear causing troops and only of marginal use against even low leadership armies (who will outnumber you anyway). Against something like Dwarves it might have a use if you could make your knight units about 20+ strong to get the whole "outnumbered by fear causing enemy" bonus. However big units of knights must be magnetic. They attract so many cannon balls.

iaguz
30-08-2009, 03:00
I had thought the mace of helstrum weak, and it kind of is. However, if you want a better composition score for your empire army, take it on your arch lector instead of the more favoured Sword of Sigismund + VHS. With Hatred and/or Hammer of Sigmar you've got a 75% chance to hit (more if you strike on 3's), a 2+to wound basically everything, no enemy armour saves and a good chance to flatten most bastards in one go. If it doesn't kill 'em in one round of combat, well, the lector is pretty survivable. He can last a round and have another go later.

Lord 0
30-08-2009, 07:43
One erratic use for the Banner of the Demonslayer that I sometimes use if I am taking a Grey or Amethyst wizard lord is to charge with the unit and then cast one of the fear-causing spells on them to make them cause terror.