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hardygun
24-08-2009, 19:02
I've been having to deal with giants using lizardmen recently and we've been trying to figure out how to apply some of the giant effects on units composed of mixed size models.

Take for example Slann in Temple Guard: The giant rolls on the infantry chart and gets pick up and put in trousers, which lets the giant pick up a unit from the first or second rank and remove it from play. Can the giant really use this to eliminate a Slann? If the Slann is on his own the giant can't roll for this result because he has to use the monster chart against a solo Slann. Haven't had a Slann grabbed, just the potential for it to even happen seems odd.

What are folks thoughts on how the giant should be interacting with units of mixed unit strength/size?

Atrahasis
24-08-2009, 19:04
Generally in my experience it is played that once you've picked a size to target, you're restricted to that size throughout the attack.

The rule itself allows what you describe however.

jaxom
24-08-2009, 19:30
Actually, I believe that you should be designating a target for the attack which is what determines the size (no rulebook here at work so I cannot confirm that). I believe that you can target a champion or a character with no problems and so sometimes you pick up a champion and sometimes you get a result which distributes as shooting.

If you were to attack a priest on engine, just like any other unit you would have to choose between attacking a skink in the howdah or attacking the Stegadon himself which would result in rolling on different tables.

Nurgling Chieftain
24-08-2009, 19:47
I would object to someone choosing to target "small" things before rolling on the table and then targeting a "large" thing with the result. It seems to me that the initial choice is binding.

shartmatau
24-08-2009, 19:52
yes if you are fighting two different sized things i believe you can choose which to swing at.
Although a skink on a stegadon is not one of those situations, just the same as a guy on a dragon isnt. That would be a large target and you roll on the large chart (damages may be distributed as shooting and therefore hit the guy/skink).

A slann in a unit or skinks with kroxigors i believe you would be choosing.

snowywlf
24-08-2009, 20:45
In support of the previous posters, it is clear to me that based on the rules you nominate a target (and choose "Big things" or "smaller things") before rolling for your attack.

Case in point, the special attack rules in the Orcs and Goblins (closest book at hand) Giant state "To determine what happens, each close combat phase roll a D6 on one of the following tables when it is the Giant's turn to fight. Which table you use depends on the size of the Giant's victim. When fighting characters riding monsters, decide whether to attack the rider or the mount, as normal and use the appropriate table for the size of the target." - Orcs and Goblins page 31.

So, choose the target of the attack, and that determines the table you roll from. If he chooses the Slann, he wont have the chance to put the frog into his pants (perhaps for a hallucinogenic effect?).

@Shartmatu Actually, you choose the target.

Atrahasis
25-08-2009, 08:51
So the permission to choose any model in base contact or in base contact with anything in base contact is superfluous and means nothing?

I mean, if he chooses to attack a model in the rank he's attacking, and then rolls pick up, then he can't choose a different model despite the rules saying he can?

jaxom
25-08-2009, 09:03
The rules tell you who he can target initially. He targets something and then rolls effect. Why would he be allowed to change targets after the roll? I don't see how this is different from declaring your R&F attacks. How many are you allocating at the champion? And the Sorceror? Now, since you did more hits to the champion than you needed lets move some of those to the sorceror?

Necromancy Black
25-08-2009, 09:22
You've got a table that affects big targets and a table that affects small targets. If you've got both in base to base contact pick one size and roll for that one.
You don't have to pick a target but you will have to pick a table to roll on as you can't roll on both.
I don't see how you can apply the results from one table onto a model that requires you to roll on the other.

Atrahasis
25-08-2009, 09:22
You're using a normal attack as an example of why a special attack should be normal? Really?

A Giant has explicit permission to change the target of his attack after rolling on the table - when he rolls pick up, he can choose to pick up a model that he simply could not have chosen to target before rolling his attack.

Sirroelivan
25-08-2009, 10:29
Yes, a giant can pick up a model in base contact, or a model touching a model in base contact.

It would be sensible though that this only applies to small targets. (Since I'd like to see a giant stuff a slann down his pants :p )

Necromancy Black
25-08-2009, 10:30
You're using a normal attack as an example of why a special attack should be normal? Really?

A Giant has explicit permission to change the target of his attack after rolling on the table - when he rolls pick up, he can choose to pick up a model that he simply could not have chosen to target before rolling his attack.

Wait, so he can roll on both tables at once? Or are you saying he can apply the affects of one table onto models that require a roll on the opposite table?

Atrahasis
25-08-2009, 10:47
I'm saying that the rules as they stand don't prevent him from selecting a big model after rolling on the small models table. Pick up places no restrictions on which models can be chosen other than their relative position.

It's stupid, and has been for a long time, and as I said in my very first post in the thread, most people play that initial selection restricts the size. The rules don't support that though.

Necromancy Black
25-08-2009, 11:17
The rules must have some kind of criteria for which table you roll on though? Otherwise what's to stop you rolling on one then apply the affects on a different sized model normally?

Atrahasis
25-08-2009, 11:19
The type of model you select determines which table you roll on. However, some of the results on the table start an entirely new target selection process that is not restricted.

The Red Scourge
25-08-2009, 11:31
Funny Necromancy Black in the discussion whether units can charge off the board, you go for the impassable table - coz it sez so in ze rules - disregarding similarities in actions.

Yet here, you deny what is stated in the rules. The giant can pick up a unit in the second rank, the slann is in the second rank ergo, the slann can get picked up.

My say, do what your conscience bids you, if your opponent disagrees then dice off, as there is no definitive answer to this - though I'm pretty sure that a GW FAQ would go with the pants stuffing, they're usually very much to the letter and hold a deep disdain for anything sensible ;)

Necromancy Black
25-08-2009, 11:58
Funny Necromancy Black in the discussion whether units can charge off the board, you go for the impassable table - coz it sez so in ze rules - disregarding similarities in actions.

I'm just being generally curious about the rules cause I don't have any rules about giants on hand.

Atrahasis last post cleared up he meant though, in that yes you must pick a table to roll on but then one result on the table lets you pick any model.

And really? It lets you take models from the second rank and not just ones in base to base contact?

I was also wondering why I've never had this come up before in a game with my Lizardmen vs one of my opponents Giants. Then I remember that no giant has made it in close combat thanks to skink skirmishers who instantly go after it :D

Milgram
25-08-2009, 12:07
could a giant target the hydra handlers for the roll? it would be great to see the giant swallow the hydra. or even better, throw it at the cauldron. :D

The Red Scourge
25-08-2009, 13:07
The giant can't, as the giant is forced to target the hydra :p

T10
25-08-2009, 13:20
The giant can't, as the giant is forced to target the hydra :p

Not a problem if he attacks the unit in the flank and only contacts a handler.

-T10

Necromancy Black
25-08-2009, 13:40
Not a problem if he attacks the unit in the flank and only contacts a handler.

-T10

Was going to say this can't be done, but it can be done. Just only if the hydra is already in close combat (remember handlers are ignored when charging).

Wait, handlers are ignored when charging.....what if they're already in combat? Still ignored?

rtunian
25-08-2009, 14:11
atrahasis is technically correct. (the most important kind of correct!)

the description for "pick up and" just says pick any model in base to base with the giant, or any model touching any model in base to base with the giant. there is nowhere that says or strongly implies that it must be a 20 or 25mm base target, or that it has to be the same kind of model as the table. it's another oversight by mister author man

about the hydra, don't forget that pick up and gives the target a chance to get out of it, by making a single successful attack/wound on the giant, which shouldn't be hard (roll a 3+ to hit and a 4+ to wound). probably not going to save your slann though >.>

The Red Scourge
25-08-2009, 14:13
atrahasis is technically correct. (the most important kind of correct!)(roll a 3+ to hit and a 4+ to wound).

Thats only a 33% chance :p

BTW: anyone up for doing a little conversion, I'd like to see a giant with a hydra in his pants ;)

jaxom
25-08-2009, 17:30
Looked at this this morning and now I see where Atra is coming from. I hadn't realized that the extension of targets was in the specific result. My faulty memory had placed it up front in the same paragraph describing the initial attack but there it just says that they pick targets as would a normal attack. How interesting.

Milgram
25-08-2009, 17:42
BTW: anyone up for doing a little conversion, I'd like to see a giant with a hydra in his pants ;)

is this a hydra in your pants or are you happy to see me? :D

Nurgling Chieftain
25-08-2009, 18:57
I'm saying that the rules as they stand don't prevent him from selecting a big model after rolling on the small models table. Pick up places no restrictions on which models can be chosen other than their relative position.Given a restriction and a permission, you apply both, not one or the other. The fact that pick-up explicitly allows him to grab some models he otherwise couldn't does not necessarily override other restrictions on what models he can select.

Necromancy Black
26-08-2009, 00:07
Given a restriction and a permission, you apply both, not one or the other. The fact that pick-up explicitly allows him to grab some models he otherwise couldn't does not necessarily override other restrictions on what models he can select.

But by the wording of the rule isn't it written that it doesn't override the previous restrictions?

I doubt this is at all RAI and I doubt anyone at my club will play it this way, but by RAW he's pretty much right.

The Red Scourge
26-08-2009, 10:29
is this a hydra in your pants or are you happy to see me? :D

Sounds like a chaos giant of Slaanesh ;)

Milgram
26-08-2009, 10:34
well, the plastic giant almost looks like he swallowed a hydra. so glad I have my nice old marauder giant!

Pixeleye
30-08-2009, 14:44
a giant attacking a TG unit with a slaan or skink unit with kroxigors would probably not be in B2B with the slaan since they dont stand in the front rank, so the question is can a giant target stuff thats not in B2B?

Urgat
30-08-2009, 15:22
Giants can attack minis in base contact or those next to those in base contact (with "pick up and..."), so yes, they can.

Milgram
30-08-2009, 16:59
but the giant could not choose the bigger table to roll on when fighting against a TG unit with slann.